The cache is part of the trash.

[+GeoScooter1]

I was out caching the other day with a friend in a rural area on a scenic drive. Of course, at almost every pull off, there was lots of trash and illegal dumping. At one such place, as we were looking for the cache, we saw a very distinctive beer can and thought, "no, THAT can't be the cache", but it was. The cache was a bison tube placed in an empty beer can in an area that already was littered with cans, etc.

 

I emailed the owner and while I thanked them for taking the time and effort to place caches, I questioned why they would leave what some would consider trash in an area that already had a trash problem. I haven't heard back from them, though. This same person also had another hide that we even refused to look for because the coordinates and the clue indicated it was in what I would call a debris pile. I did note that on the log.

 

Has anyone one run into caches that are part of the litter? If we hadn't found that cache, it might have been part of the cans we hauled out with us.

 

Do you just ignore the fact that the cache looks like trash, email the owner, or CITO?

 

 

Sorry about the double post. The website hung up, but I can't seem to delete the post that has no message body.

Edited December 31, 2007 by GeoScooter1

[+Kit Fox]

I was out caching the other day with a friend in a rural area on a scenic drive. Of course, at almost every pull off, there was lots of trash and illegal dumping. At one such place, as we were looking for the cache, we saw a very distinctive beer can and thought, "no, THAT can't be the cache", but it was. The cache was a bison tube placed in an empty beer can in an area that already was littered with cans, etc.

 

I emailed the owner and while I thanked them for taking the time and effort to place caches, I questioned why they would leave what some would consider trash in an area that already had a trash problem. I haven't heard back from them, though. This same person also had another hide that we even refused to look for because the coordinates and the clue indicated it was in what I would call a debris pile. I did note that on the log.

 

Has anyone one run into caches that are part of the litter? If we hadn't found that cache, it might have been part of the cans we hauled out with us.

 

Do you just ignore the fact that the cache looks like trash, email the owner, or CITO?

 

I recently made a FTF on a traditional cache, that had plenty of DNFs. The cache was disguised as trash also. Don't worry about the first cache it won't be long before the cache gets removed by a "can collector" looking for recyclables.

[+Isonzo Karst]

There was a recent thread about Trash Caches being offered for sale. I tend to CITO them and log DNFs. But I do a lot of CITO.

[+GeoScooter1]

I am surprised at the number of people who have "loved" finding an empty beer can in the woods and no other mention of it being part of the litter problem in the area. I suppose it is a cool looking beer can--it is a Daytona 500 one, but it still looks like litter to me. On the other cache owned by the same guy that I refused to look for because it is in a pile of debris, his friend posted that it wasn't a pile of trash, but a "hiding opportunity bonanza". Call me silly, but a big pile of dirt, concrete, rocks, spare tires, and god knows what else, is a trash pile!

 

To each their own, I suppose, but I will continue to not look for but log caches that are "trash" and some caches may end up being CITO.

[+joranda]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is? And yes, I have found a few caches that would look like trash to muggles. Gatorade bottle, soda cans, old broken car mirror and a beer can or two. It is just a different kind of hide. What is next? Will empty pill bottles and breath mint tins be listed under trash too. I have a micro hide that is a cigerette butt, to most, that would be trash. To me, it's different. We all have different ideas and want to do different cache hide styles.

[+ReadyOrNot]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is?

 

What does it matter? Then you don't mind the caches that look like pipe bombs? A cache in a beer can is just plain stupid. It shows a lack of imagination and will do nothing but give this game a bad name.. I can see it now, a land manager already doesn't like geocaching and finds a beer can with the words "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" written on the side of it...

 

We all know what happens next.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Has anyone one run into caches that are part of the litter? If we hadn't found that cache, it might have been part of the cans we hauled out with us. ...

 

Never. Litter is discarded. Caches are maintained. I have found caches that were disguised as litter, and I have heard about caches that were picked up as part of the litter patrol. That's the risk those caches run.

 

I do think it's fair to question someones taste in placing a cache disguised as litter in an area that is pristine. Not so much in a litter strewn area...though in time CITO itself should make the cache easier to find.

 

Isonzo Karst's experiece is similar to mine. The most brilliantly disguised cache of this type I've ever found almost ended up in the trash because we thought it was just that. Trash. At the last second we figured out it was the cache. That's the risks. Cachers should know this going in.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+joranda]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is?

 

What does it matter? Then you don't mind the caches that look like pipe bombs? A cache in a beer can is just plain stupid. It shows a lack of imagination and will do nothing but give this game a bad name.. I can see it now, a land manager already doesn't like geocaching and finds a beer can with the words "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" written on the side of it...

 

We all know what happens next.

 

So you yourself has seen the cache container to call it a lack of imagination. All the ones that I have seen used have had the tops cut off under the seam with a nice container placed inside then put back together like it was nothing different than the rest. Pretty creative to me. You try it sometime. There are some many people who cut everyone down here. One guy says the sky is blue while the next one has to say he is wrong. What's wrong with people now a days? Have you even been out caching today, or even when was the last time. Just enjoy your day, there are many people out there that can't

[+GeoScooter1]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is?

 

What does it matter? Then you don't mind the caches that look like pipe bombs? A cache in a beer can is just plain stupid. It shows a lack of imagination and will do nothing but give this game a bad name.. I can see it now, a land manager already doesn't like geocaching and finds a beer can with the words "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" written on the side of it...

 

We all know what happens next.

 

My point exactly! If an area already has a litter problem, why would anyone want to add to it with something that under normal circumstances would be considered trash. And, if someone throws out the first piece of litter (cache or not) in an area, you can bet other people will start dumping their litter there. It's that whole herd mentality. This beer can didn't even have an "Official Geocache" sticker on it. It had a piece of fishing line glued to the neck and a bison tube attached to the line inside the can. We found it because we kicked the can and heard something rattle. We really did think it was just part of the trash in the area that we were picking up.

[+joranda]

Now how many caches of the mirco size, bison tubes, do you find geocaching stickers on? To date, I have found zero with any geocaching stickers on.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Call me silly, but a big pile of dirt, concrete, rocks, spare tires, and god knows what else, is a trash pile! ...

 

In twin falls after a short hike you can find a spot where people have dumped their trash over the rim of the Canyon for a hundred years or more. It's very likely a historic spot with Archeological relevance. Sort of like the Oregon Trail. People dumped their trash out the back of their wagons and now it's protected by law.

 

There are debris piles and debris piles. Some are interesting. Some not.

[+welch]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is?

 

What does it matter? Then you don't mind the caches that look like pipe bombs? A cache in a beer can is just plain stupid. It shows a lack of imagination and will do nothing but give this game a bad name.. I can see it now, a land manager already doesn't like geocaching and finds a beer can with the words "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" written on the side of it...

 

We all know what happens next.

 

So you yourself has seen the cache container to call it a lack of imagination. All the ones that I have seen used have had the tops cut off under the seam with a nice container placed inside then put back together like it was nothing different than the rest. Pretty creative to me. You try it sometime. There are some many people who cut everyone down here. One guy says the sky is blue while the next one has to say he is wrong. What's wrong with people now a days? Have you even been out caching today, or even when was the last time. Just enjoy your day, there are many people out there that can't

 

So the next time someone says that geocachers are good landstewards and most CITO wherever they go, will they need an asterisk?

 

* except when the cache is suppose to look like trash...

[+scuba dude]

I also agree that caches of this type are very poor hides. I don't care how long it took to construct the hide, if it looks like trash, it's just plain ugly.

 

The discarded items of settlers 100+ years ago, is a huge difference from cement, tires, washing machines, etc that get dumped on back roads and off bridges by todays morons.

[+GeoScooter1]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is? And yes, I have found a few caches that would look like trash to muggles. Gatorade bottle, soda cans, old broken car mirror and a beer can or two. It is just a different kind of hide. What is next? Will empty pill bottles and breath mint tins be listed under trash too. I have a micro hide that is a cigerette butt, to most, that would be trash. To me, it's different. We all have different ideas and want to do different cache hide styles.

 

I would say all of the above are litter. I have seen pill bottles and mint tins used, but at least they have been disguised and hidden, not just on the ground with the rest of the trash.

 

And I would never pick up a disgusting cigarette butt off the ground!

[+ReadyOrNot]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is?

 

What does it matter? Then you don't mind the caches that look like pipe bombs? A cache in a beer can is just plain stupid. It shows a lack of imagination and will do nothing but give this game a bad name.. I can see it now, a land manager already doesn't like geocaching and finds a beer can with the words "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" written on the side of it...

 

We all know what happens next.

 

So you yourself has seen the cache container to call it a lack of imagination. All the ones that I have seen used have had the tops cut off under the seam with a nice container placed inside then put back together like it was nothing different than the rest. Pretty creative to me. You try it sometime. There are some many people who cut everyone down here. One guy says the sky is blue while the next one has to say he is wrong. What's wrong with people now a days? Have you even been out caching today, or even when was the last time. Just enjoy your day, there are many people out there that can't

 

I apologize, didn't realize having an opinion on a public forum was wrong... I am going to go do something else.. It's too cold to cache right now, so I'm going to head to the garage and construct a cache container that looks like dog feces.

 

Have fun!

[+joranda]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is? And yes, I have found a few caches that would look like trash to muggles. Gatorade bottle, soda cans, old broken car mirror and a beer can or two. It is just a different kind of hide. What is next? Will empty pill bottles and breath mint tins be listed under trash too. I have a micro hide that is a cigerette butt, to most, that would be trash. To me, it's different. We all have different ideas and want to do different cache hide styles.

 

I would say all of the above are litter. I have seen pill bottles and mint tins used, but at least they have been disguised and hidden, not just on the ground with the rest of the trash.

 

And I would never pick up a disgusting cigarette butt off the ground!

 

For one, I don't smoke, and the butt was never used. But you will pick up a wet moldy log out of a mint tin.

[+joranda]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is?

 

What does it matter? Then you don't mind the caches that look like pipe bombs? A cache in a beer can is just plain stupid. It shows a lack of imagination and will do nothing but give this game a bad name.. I can see it now, a land manager already doesn't like geocaching and finds a beer can with the words "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" written on the side of it...

 

We all know what happens next.

 

So you yourself has seen the cache container to call it a lack of imagination. All the ones that I have seen used have had the tops cut off under the seam with a nice container placed inside then put back together like it was nothing different than the rest. Pretty creative to me. You try it sometime. There are some many people who cut everyone down here. One guy says the sky is blue while the next one has to say he is wrong. What's wrong with people now a days? Have you even been out caching today, or even when was the last time. Just enjoy your day, there are many people out there that can't

 

I apologize, didn't realize having an opinion on a public forum was wrong... I am going to go do something else.. It's too cold to cache right now, so I'm going to head to the garage and construct a cache container that looks like dog feces.

 

Have fun!

 

That makes a great hide too. Call it, "Watch your step"

[+ReadyOrNot]

That makes a great hide too. Call it, "Watch your step"

 

And you could put it in an area where there is a bunch of real dog waste. Or better yet, hide a bison tube in a real piece of dog excrement. That would be the ultimate!

[+GeoScooter1]

 

For one, I don't smoke, and the butt was never used. But you will pick up a wet moldy log out of a mint tin.

 

I don't think I ever said I would pick up a wet, moldy log. So far, the mint tins I have found (and they are few) have been in good shape. But if I found one that wasn't, I probably wouldn't mess with it. Playing with trash is

not my idea of fun.

[+joranda]

As long as you leave some handy wipes, but leave them in a ziplock so it's not trash.

[+BlueDeuce]

 

So the next time someone says that geocachers are good landstewards and most CITO wherever they go, will they need an asterisk?

 

* except when the cache is suppose to look like trash...

 

Exactly.

 

You place your cache and you CITO your chances.

 

Is it Art? No.

[+GRANPA ALEX]

It IS unfortunate that litter is as much a apart of the landscape as the flora & fauna and rocks . . . it IS everywhere people go and I hate it as much as anyone else.

 

However, since that unhappy situation is fact, why not use it as a hide like you would the tree, the shrub or the rock that is also there? It may be the only disguise that is NOT disturbed, as no muggle picks up litter.

Edited December 31, 2007 by GRANPA ALEX

[+ReadyOrNot]

It IS unfortunate that litter is as much a apart of the landscape as the flora & fauna and rocks . . . it IS everywhere people go and I hate it as much as anyone else.

 

However, since that unhappy situation is fact, why not use it as a hide like you would the tree, the shrub or the rock that is also there? It may be the only disguise that is NOT disturbed, as no muggle picks up litter.

 

Plenty of muggles pick of litter. Highway cleanup crews, local boy scout troops, "Friends" of parks have cleanup work parties.

 

By all means, place these kinds of caches. But when they get tossed in the garbage can, you'll need to raise the difficulty and terrain levels.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

When I was a neophyte cacher, the first year or so, I was prone to make inclusive statements like "Geocachers are good stewards of the land" and "CITO is a geocaching ethic and common practice" and "Geocachers play by a common set of guidelines and practices".

 

I believed that because everyone I cached with acted like that, and until last year I avoided these forums like the plaugue, so my view was limited to those I actually cached with.

 

Now that I have cached almost half of the country, seen all kinds of practices and participate much more heavily in the various forums I can no longer make such a blanket statement... I qualify it by saying "The cachers I know... (do these things)" as that is more accurate, though not completely so.

 

I have to say that I would be surprised if any of the many cachers that I know would lead me to a trash pile to find a beer can, but obviously people do, so we can't say "Geocachers don't litter". I don't care how you justify it, a beer can in a trashy place is litter to anyone but a very liberal geocacher!

 

Always an exception: I have found several caches in rather trashy places; all of them had a request on the cache page that cachers collect a bag of trash while hunting the cache and included trash bags in the cache. That's cool.

 

I have found only one cache worse than the OP discusses, this one was a glass mayonaise jar in a literal trash dump, down a hill too steep to walk on, you had to crawl among the broken glass and sharp metal trash to get to it. That was the only active cache I have ever stolen, but I did and I am not sorry! The owner had already been hounded out of our state forum for hiding caches like this, and for his habit of using a paddle bit for drilling holes in trees and park fences to insert film cans, so wether it was right or not I trashed that one. If I find one like this described in the OP I would sign it and move on, but I would note in my log that it was a seriously sucky place for a cache so that future finders would at least have my opinion of it, for whatever that's worth.

 

I can't say that "geocachers practice CITO" because I know very few who actually do so on any kind of regular basis - some will attend a CITO event once a year or so and say they practice CITO. I am sorta like that, I promote the CITO practice but don't actually do enough of it (I cache on crutches so carrying a bag of trash isn't easy in the woods... so I tend to CITO road-sides and parking lots). I usually hunt the cache first then CITO on the way out, so it's not likely I would CITO such a cache before recognizing it for what it is, but it could happen.

 

I can't say "geocachers are good stewards of the land" because I have seen and read on the various forums that some among us will do anything, including calling a beer can in a trash pile a good cache. Again, I am proud to say that all of the cachers that I know are great stewards... unfortunately we're such a large and varied geocaching community that I can't tell the land-owner that with any certainty!

 

I can't even say "we hide caches of trinkets in interesting places" because my caching experience lately is that "we" meaning "most of us" appear to have become way too enamored with bison tubes and keyholders on random phone poles. Huh, imagine me on an anti-micro rant!!

 

So therein lies the delimma with caches such as this... besides setting a bad precedent for new-comers we are by such practices prohibiting ourselves from telling land-owners in any convincing manner that those who hide and seek caches will do so in a way the land-owner would be proud to host, yet it is legal under the guidelines so folks will continue doing it.

 

I guess my mantra of "Hide them like you like to find them" is the only helpful advice I have... if you like to find beer cans in trash piles, so be it!

Edited December 31, 2007 by TheAlabamaRambler

[GeoPirates2007]

sadly there seem to be alot of trachers

[+KBI]

One mans treasure is always another ones trash. What does it matter what the cache container is?

What does it matter? Then you don't mind the caches that look like pipe bombs?

We're talking about fake trash, not fake pipe bombs. That's a strawman argument. Nobody here is promoting the use of fake pipe bomb caches.

 

A cache in a beer can is just plain stupid. It shows a lack of imagination and will do nothing but give this game a bad name..

I respectfully disagree. It depends on the circumstance.

 

I think it is inappropriate to put something that looks like litter, even if it is only a clever cache container disguised as litter, in a place that it not otherwise trashed up.

 

On the other hand I have gotten some good quality entertainment and enjoyment out of fake-trash caches. My favorite example is a cache I once found in an abandoned urban vacant lot that was already heavily strewn with trash. Of course I had the option not to go in there once I saw that is wasn’t a manicured garden spot, but the previous finders’ logs intrigued me, there were many DNFs, and ... I was not disappointed. I spent the first 20 minutes or so looking around the trash – in the bushes, in the trees, under logs, and of course looking for fake utility boxes, etc. When I finally decided to question my assumptions, as I am sometimes slow to do, I eventually defeated the camouflage: it was a glass Planters peanut jar hiding inside a tall-boy malt liquor can with the bottom removed, lying in the tall un-mowed grass. I was impressed! The contents were dry, there was lots of good swag, and the comments in the log were all favorable.

 

I had a non-caching friend along, and he was equally impressed. Lack of imagination? Quite the contrary. It was completely unexpected and cleverly constructed, and was therefore much more imaginative than any of the lamp post or ammo can caches we’d found that same afternoon.

 

Clever is clever, and camouflage is camouflage. Blending a container in with its surroundings takes all kinds of creativity, and I thought that particular camo job deserved a high score. Almost had ME fooled!

 

A cache owner who disguises his container in this way is, of course, taking a big risk that it might be removed with the real trash during a clean-up (or by a CITO-inspired DNF-er). The cache in my favorite example above was archived a short time later after having met with a similar (and predictable) fate. It is the cache owner's choice whether or not to take that risk, however, and that's as it should be.

 

I wouldn’t hide a cache like that myself, but I don’t have a problem with others doing it as long as they’re using good judgment about it. Tossing an old tire into an otherwise beautiful meadow by a waterfall in a virgin forest is one thing. Using an existing old tire that has already been dumped amongst the debris between a pawn shop and a bail bonds office is another.

 

I can see it now, a land manager already doesn't like geocaching and finds a beer can with the words "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" written on the side of it...

 

We all know what happens next.

Another strawman. You are presuming that the hypothetical cache in your example would be a surprise to the land manager, and that surprise could only happen if the cache was hidden without permission. Violation of the adequate permission guideline is another issue, separate from the aesthetic question of hiding styles.

 

If the hider has permission to place the cache then your point is moot. Additionally, if the property is already strewn with trash, then why would the land owner or manager care anyway?

 

Again, I think it is inappropriate to put something that looks like litter, even if it is only a clever cache container disguised as litter, in a place that it not otherwise trashed up. Even if the hider has permission I think that's a bad idea.

 

But I don’t think ALL trash-camo caches are bad. The guidelines don't specifically prohibit fake trash camouflage, as they shouldn't, but they DO strongly encourage general common sense ... as they should.

 

I apologize, didn't realize having an opinion on a public forum was wrong...

BTW: I'm not picking on you, Ready. Others have made the same points as you; your post was merely a convenient synopsis of many people's opinions. My response is not directed at you personally. You're a good guy, and I respect your opinion. (Thought I'd just head off that potential fuss right up front. )

[+ReadyOrNot]

BTW: I'm not picking on you, Ready. Others have made the same points as you; your post was merely a convenient synopsis of many people's opinions. My response is not directed at you personally. You're a good guy, and I respect your opinion. (Thought I'd just head off that potential fuss right up front. )

 

No worries.. I think we've gotten past that. With all the fodder your content provides, I can't be consumed with how it makes me feel

[+GeoScooter1]

"Again, I think it is inappropriate to put something that looks like litter, even if it is only a clever cache container disguised as litter, in a place that it not otherwise trashed up. Even if the hider has permission I think that's a bad idea."

 

What if there is only 1 or 2 beer cans lying around? Is it OK then to place a cache that looks like trash since there is already litter there? It all starts with one person throwing out one piece of trash and then the herd mentality seems to take over. The more people think it is OK to throw their trash there because everyone else seems to be doing it, the bigger the pile will become. And that is why I don't think it is right to add more to it and justify it because there is already a big pile of litter there anyway. Some of the biggest piles of trash probably started with just one can left by someone too ignorant and/or lazy to take it with them.

Edited December 31, 2007 by GeoScooter1

[+KBI]

With all the fodder your content provides, I can't be consumed with how it makes me feel

That's good to know.

 

Just curious, though: "Fodder?" Are there details in my post to which you'd like to respond – or were you just going to stick with that meaninglessly vague disparagement?

 

Either way is fine. Just curious.

[+KBI]

"Again, I think it is inappropriate to put something that looks like litter, even if it is only a clever cache container disguised as litter, in a place that it not otherwise trashed up. Even if the hider has permission I think that's a bad idea."

 

What if there is only 1 or 2 beer cans lying around? Is OK then to place a cache that looks like trash since there is already litter there? It all starts with one person throwing out one piece of trash and then the herd mentality seems to take over. The more people think it is OK to throw their trash there because everyone else seems to be doing it, the bigger the pile will become. And that is why I don't think it is right to add more to it and justify it because there is already a big pile of litter there anyway. Some of the biggest piles of trash probably started with just one can left by someone too ignorant and/or lazy to take it with them.

You make a good point. As I explained, it's a judgment call.

 

If I were to hide such a cache I wouldn’t feel right about adding to even a large trash pile – I’d be much more comfortable using an item that was already there, even if there would be no way for anyone to tell afterward whether my camo was added or pre-existing.

 

Only one or two beer cans? I’d rather pick them up and leave the place trash-free. An existing garbage mess that would take ten people all day to remove? That’s a different matter – wouldn’t you agree?

 

As Grandpa Alex pointed out, public litter and illegal trash dumps are a fact of life. You and I would both be happier if they all went away, but look at it this way: Given the choice, which would you rather have: An ugly public trash-strewn mess, or an ugly public trash-strewn mess that conceals a wholesome and fun little secret? Stepping around in a place where there is lots of garbage is repulsive to some folks no matter what the reason; I completely understand that. Some of us, however, don't really mind it if there is good fun to be had and all the other non-nature geocache-hunt-type attractions apply, such as challenging camouflage, exercise, playing with a GPS, being outside instead of hearing about Hillary on CNN, etc.

 

Common sense. Judgment call. No two people will draw the line in exactly the same place; therefore there is plenty of room for reasonable disagreement.

 

I’m glad it’s not a very common hide method, but I still say I don’t think ALL trash-camo caches are bad.

[+ReadyOrNot]

or were you just going to stick with that meaninglessly vague disparagement?

 

You crack me up

[+wimseyguy]

I used to own a cache like this. It was in a closed up car dealership parking lot, where there was already a fair amount of trash, and little likelihood of a scout clean up patrol coming through. I copied the idea from a cache I had found somewhere else and at first thought it worthy of repeating. After a while I decided I didn't like adding to the trash, even in an abandoned parking lot, and didn't want to encourage another copycat hide, so I archived it. Judging by the finders logs it was well received though.

 

There are all kinds of hiders, seekers, cachers, and trachers out there. Many of us wear more than one label too.

[+GeoScooter1]

A trash-strewn place is still a trash-strewn place to me no matter if there is a cache there or not. I would hope that more cachers would voice their dislike of caches in trash piles in their logs or private emails to the cache owner. By just logging and doing nothing, I think we encourage this to happen.

 

However, you are right, some people don't seem to mind and will continue to look for caches in some of the nastiest places and that is certainly their option.

 

When I cache, I am mostly going on hikes to scenic areas or parks and I want to enjoy the scenery and not be brought to a pretty place only to find myself looking for a cache in a trash pile. I have only one skirtlifter PNG and that was because I happened to park my car at the exact spot while waiting to meet up with my caching buddy. It popped up on my GPS and I was curious to see what one looked like. I choose not to find caches in Wal-Mart parking lots, Dunkin Donuts, or other commercial places. I have found some very clever urban micros that I enjoyed because of the creativity and the challenge. Take me somewhere with a view or some interesting history!

Edited December 31, 2007 by GeoScooter1

[+scuba dude]

You have some serious flaws in your logic here....

 

My favorite example is a cache I once found in an abandoned urban vacant lot that was already heavily strewn with trash.

 

A cache owner who disguises his container in this way is, of course, taking a big risk that it might be removed with the real trash during a clean-up (or by a CITO-inspired DNF-er). The cache in my favorite example above was archived a short time later after having met with a similar (and predictable) fate. It is the cache owner's choice whether or not to take that risk, however, and that's as it should be.

 

I wouldn’t hide a cache like that myself, but I don’t have a problem with others doing it as long as they’re using good judgment about it.

 

Another strawman. You are presuming that the hypothetical cache in your example would be a surprise to the land manager, and that surprise could only happen if the cache was hidden without permission. Violation of the adequate permission guideline is another issue, separate from the aesthetic question of hiding styles.

 

If the hider has permission to place the cache then your point is moot. Additionally, if the property is already strewn with trash, then why would the land owner or manager care anyway?

 

But I don’t think ALL trash-camo caches are bad. The guidelines don't specifically prohibit fake trash camouflage, as they shouldn't, but they DO strongly encourage general common sense ... as they should.

 

1- There is no such thing as an abandoned vacant lot. It is owned by someone who pays the taxes on it. Whether or not they try to keep it clean is irrelevant.

 

2- You think that creating geotrash is good? Blending in with the surroundings is fine, but that is to prevent it's discovery and theft/tampering. Making a cache that looks like something in need of being picked up and thrown away is simply lower than LPCs. It guarantees that someday the cache will be hauled out as trash.

 

3- see #2

 

4-you assume that a cache hidden on anything other than public land HAS permission. I would make a bet that AT LEAST 99% or more of parking lot caches have no approval whatsoever. A parking lot is part of private property. I have seen many, many urban caches located on shopping center grounds like this. "vacant" lots full under the same prinicipal.

 

5- is false, circular logic. Surely the owner must have known the cache was there, but if he didn't why would he care? It must be fine to place caches in trashy areas, regardless of the owner, they wouldn't care.

 

6- Do the guideline say anything about harmfull caches? Maybe we can create a classification of biohazard waste caches, where the searcher has to sort through bloody bandages and needles to find the nano cache.

 

Dang, I think Vinny already cornered #6......

 

SD

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Do the guidelines need to now prohibit Caches that are disguised as trash? Oh, wait, that should fall into the good judgment clause.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Do the guidelines need to now prohibit Caches that are disguised as trash? Oh, wait, that should fall into the good judgment clause.

 

I don't think anything needs to be done with the guidelines. These "trashes" will take care of themselves.

[+joranda]

(Some of the biggest piles of trash probably started with just one can left by someone too ignorant and/or lazy to take it with them.)

 

Where did you come up with that one. That's really in left field. If you are really worried about trash, then you wouldn't place any caches at all. I the long run, it's all trash, something you place in nature that wasn't supposed to be there. Is this getting deep enough for you yet?

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Do the guidelines need to now prohibit Caches that are disguised as trash? Oh, wait, that should fall into the good judgment clause.

 

I don't think anything needs to be done with the guidelines. These "trashes" will take care of themselves.

That's what I meant. A Cache hider is supposed to use good judgment, so they should know better. One way to help is for the finders to quit being "polite" and instead tell the owner how bad the hide is. Of course, if they want it to be bad, that will just make them happy.

 

"I'm sooo proud that everyone hates my Cache"

[+Renegade Knight]

...1- There is no such thing as an abandoned vacant lot. It is owned by someone who pays the taxes on it. Whether or not they try to keep it clean is irrelevant.

 

2- You think that creating geotrash is good? Blending in with the surroundings is fine, but that is to prevent it's discovery and theft/tampering. Making a cache that looks like something in need of being picked up and thrown away is simply lower than LPCs. It guarantees that someday the cache will be hauled out as trash.

 

3- see #2

 

4-you assume that a cache hidden on anything other than public land HAS permission. I would make a bet that AT LEAST 99% or more of parking lot caches have no approval whatsoever. A parking lot is part of private property. I have seen many, many urban caches located on shopping center grounds like this. "vacant" lots full under the same prinicipal.

 

5- is false, circular logic. Surely the owner must have known the cache was there, but if he didn't why would he care? It must be fine to place caches in trashy areas, regardless of the owner, they wouldn't care.

 

6- Do the guideline say anything about harmfull caches? Maybe we can create a classification of biohazard waste caches, where the searcher has to sort through bloody bandages and needles to find the nano cache.

 

Dang, I think Vinny already cornered #6......

 

SD

 

#1) There is such a thing as an unmaintained and seemingly abandoned vacant lot. The one the owner pays their tax on from Phoenix while the lot sits in Maine and collects lawn clippings from all the considerate neighbors. It's a relative term.

#2)Litter is trash. A cache that looks like litter still isn't. You can debate the merit of that type of camo, but it would still fall short of litter by most laws I've read.

#4) Second guessing cache owners is seldom productive.

#6) Every cache can be harmful. I'm not sure the point you are making here. CITO has hurt me worse thanks to a large chunk of glass that gave me a nice slice in the leg when it poked through the bag, than any cache I've ever done or look for.

[+ReadyOrNot]

That's what I meant. A Cache hider is supposed to use good judgment, so they should know better. One way to help is for the finders to quit being "polite" and instead tell the owner how bad the hide is. Of course, if they want it to be bad, that will just make them happy.

 

"I'm sooo proud that everyone hates my Cache"

 

Or they'll just delete any logs that don't convey a happy, happy, joy, joy message.

[+KBI]

You have some serious flaws in your logic here....

 

1) My favorite example is a cache I once found in an abandoned urban vacant lot that was already heavily strewn with trash.

1- There is no such thing as an abandoned vacant lot. It is owned by someone who pays the taxes on it. Whether or not they try to keep it clean is irrelevant.

Yes, there IS such a thing as an abandoned lot. It happens. Municipalities sometimes give up on collecting taxes on them and eventually put them up for auction or annex them after an exhaustive title search.

 

Even if the taxes are being paid, the maintenance on a lot might be abandoned by an uncaring owner. This happens too -- quite frequently. In my example I had no way of knowing which was the case, and it’s really none of my business; permission issues are between the cache owner and the land owner. All I know is I enjoyed a surprisingly clever cache in a surprising place.

 

2) A cache owner who disguises his container in this way is, of course, taking a big risk that it might be removed with the real trash during a clean-up (or by a CITO-inspired DNF-er). The cache in my favorite example above was archived a short time later after having met with a similar (and predictable) fate. It is the cache owner's choice whether or not to take that risk, however, and that's as it should be.

2- You think that creating geotrash is good? Blending in with the surroundings is fine, but that is to prevent it's discovery and theft/tampering.

Not necessarily. Who told you that? Challenging camouflage, for me, is one of the must enjoyable things about this game. Camo is not only used to secure a container from muggles; it is also generally designed to give finders a fun challenge.

 

Making a cache that looks like something in need of being picked up and thrown away is simply lower than LPCs.

That's your opinion. Judging from the logs, not everyone shares that opinion.

 

It guarantees that someday the cache will be hauled out as trash.

I agree with you that it’s risky for the cache owner to disguise his cache as trash; as far as your aesthetic preference, however, that’s purely a matter of opinion. Our preferences apparently differ. I don’t consider LPCs to be "low" in the first place; therefore your comparison is lost on mentally defective cachers like me.

[+KBI]

3) I wouldn’t hide a cache like that myself, but I don’t have a problem with others doing it as long as they’re using good judgment about it.

3- see #2

Aesthetic violations and guideline violations are not AT ALL the same thing. Confusing practical issues with artistic issues is a surprisingly common mistake, but they are two distinctly different concepts.

 

If you believe a cache is in violation of the website’s guidelines, by all means report it; you’ll be doing us all a favor. If, on the other hand, you believe a cache is in violation of your own artistic taste, then the best thing for you to do is simply avoid it and move on, leaving it to others who might actually enjoy it.

 

4) Another strawman. You are presuming that the hypothetical cache in your example would be a surprise to the land manager, and that surprise could only happen if the cache was hidden without permission. Violation of the adequate permission guideline is another issue, separate from the aesthetic question of hiding styles.

4-you assume that a cache hidden on anything other than public land HAS permission. I would make a bet that AT LEAST 99% or more of parking lot caches have no approval whatsoever. A parking lot is part of private property. I have seen many, many urban caches located on shopping center grounds like this. "vacant" lots full under the same prinicipal.

See #3.

[+KBI]

5) If the hider has permission to place the cache then your point is moot. Additionally, if the property is already strewn with trash, then why would the land owner or manager care anyway?

5- is false, circular logic. Surely the owner must have known the cache was there, but if he didn't why would he care? It must be fine to place caches in trashy areas, regardless of the owner, they wouldn't care.

Clumsy wording on my part maybe, but not circular. You are correct in observing that I was making two distinctly separate points:

• If the cache owner had permission for the hide then ReadyOrNot’s point was moot.
  
• If the land owner obviously doesn’t care to maintain the property, and doesn’t seem to be concerned about the trash, yet he's willing to give permission for the hide, then why would he care if I hide a cache container inside one of his empty beer cans or rotting tires?
  

With which of those two points did you disagree?

 

6) But I don’t think ALL trash-camo caches are bad. The guidelines don't specifically prohibit fake trash camouflage, as they shouldn't, but they DO strongly encourage general common sense ... as they should.

6- Do the guideline say anything about harmfull caches? Maybe we can create a classification of biohazard waste caches, where the searcher has to sort through bloody bandages and needles to find the nano cache.

You are making a strawman argument here. Nobody here is promoting the existence of intentionally hazardous caches. We are only talking about guideline-compliant caches disguised as trash. All the usual guidelines and common sense rules apply just as with any other cache type. As far as I know, intentional booby traps designed to harm finders are not allowed for any type of hide.

[+BlueDeuce]

I'm sure we can find the fine line, but when it comes to caches hidden in trash in trash ridden areas I just don't care for it. That's all.

[+ReadyOrNot]

You are making a strawman argument here. Nobody here is promoting the existence of intentionally hazardous caches. We are only talking about guideline-compliant caches disguised as trash. All the usual guidelines and common sense rules apply just as with any other cache type. As far as I know, intentional booby traps designed to harm finders are not allowed for any type of hide.

 

O.K.B.I - Where in the rules and regulations does it say you cannot place a geocache in a container that may look like a pipe bomb? We're not talking about an ACTUAL bomb, we're talking about one that looks like a bomb....

 

You must know the difference between between a real bomb and a fake one? Or between a real cache and trash.... Hmmmm. I digress.....

[+KBI]

You are making a strawman argument here. Nobody here is promoting the existence of intentionally hazardous caches. We are only talking about guideline-compliant caches disguised as trash. All the usual guidelines and common sense rules apply just as with any other cache type. As far as I know, intentional booby traps designed to harm finders are not allowed for any type of hide.

O.K.B.I - Where in the rules and regulations does it say you cannot place a geocache in a container that may look like a pipe bomb? We're not talking about an ACTUAL bomb, we're talking about one that looks like a bomb....

You mean other than this?

 

Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types

 

For all physical caches and waypoints, think carefully about how your container and the actions of geocachers will be perceived by the public ....

 

.... and, while an ammo box or PVC pipe may be a great container if hidden deep in the woods, it may cause alarm if discovered in an urban setting.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. While a cache made to look like a pipe bomb is not specifically prohibited, it would appear to be strongly frowned upon. I’m guessing that a cache described as "fake pipe bomb, but don’t worry, it’s not real" or even one that is meant to look like a bomb as a fun surprise would either not be approved or would be quickly archived. The potential harm to our little pastime if a muggle – or a cacher, for that matter – were to become alarmed is not worth the risk. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

 

You must know the difference between between a real bomb and a fake one? Or between a real cache and trash....Hmmmm. I digress.....

You still seem confused. You are equating the risk of alarming the public with a fake bomb, which is a serious practical concern, with the risk of offending the aesthetic sensibilities of a fellow cacher via a fake piece of garbage, which is merely a matter of personal taste.

 

If you truly consider the two concerns to be equivalent, then please tell me:

• Do you think the concern over caches which might reasonably be mistaken for homemade explosives is groundless and unfounded because they are no worse than fake trash caches?
  
• Or: do you think intentionally disguising a cache in a way which might reasonably be mistaken for a piece of trash is an inherent public hazard equivalent to that of a fake bomb which might reasonably be mistaken for a real bomb?
  

Either way I look forward to your supporting and convincing arguments.

 

I say again: We're talking about fake garbage cache containers here, not fake pipe bombs. That's a strawman argument. Nobody here is promoting the use of fake pipe bomb cache containers.

[+figtreesky]

wouldn't it be a false analogy?

[+figtreesky]

wouldn't it be a false analogy?

[+scuba dude]

You mean other than this?

 

Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types

 

For all physical caches and waypoints, think carefully about how your container and the actions of geocachers will be perceived by the public ....

 

 

So it's OK if the general population think of geocachers as trash leaving, garbage strewing people?

 

Lets re-itterate the important point here.....think carefully about how your container and the actions of geocachers will be perceived by the public

[+KBI]

You mean other than this?

 

Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types

 

For all physical caches and waypoints, think carefully about how your container and the actions of geocachers will be perceived by the public ....

So it's OK if the general population think of geocachers as trash leaving, garbage strewing people?

Did I say that? Is that your impression of what I and others have been saying?

 

 

 

Lets re-itterate the important point here.....think carefully about how your container and the actions of geocachers will be perceived by the public

Yes, by all means, let's repeat ourselves. Again:

 

It depends on the circumstance.

 

I think it is inappropriate to put something that looks like litter, even if it is only a clever cache container disguised as litter, in a place that it not otherwise trashed up ...

 

... I wouldn’t hide a cache like that myself, but I don’t have a problem with others doing it as long as they’re using good judgment about it. Tossing an old tire into an otherwise beautiful meadow by a waterfall in a virgin forest is one thing. Using an existing old tire that has already been dumped amongst the debris between a pawn shop and a bail bonds office is another ...

 

... Again, I think it is inappropriate to put something that looks like litter, even if it is only a clever cache container disguised as litter, in a place that it not otherwise trashed up. Even if the hider has permission I think that's a bad idea.

 

But I don’t think ALL trash-camo caches are bad.

If I were to hide such a cache I wouldn’t feel right about adding to even a large trash pile – I’d be much more comfortable using an item that was already there, even if there would be no way for anyone to tell afterward whether my camo was added or pre-existing.

 

Only one or two beer cans? I’d rather pick them up and leave the place trash-free. An existing garbage mess that would take ten people all day to remove? That’s a different matter – wouldn’t you agree?

 

As Grandpa Alex pointed out, public litter and illegal trash dumps are a fact of life. You and I would both be happier if they all went away, but look at it this way: Given the choice, which would you rather have: An ugly public trash-strewn mess, or an ugly public trash-strewn mess that conceals a wholesome and fun little secret? Stepping around in a place where there is lots of garbage is repulsive to some folks no matter what the reason; I completely understand that. Some of us, however, don't really mind it if there is good fun to be had and all the other non-nature geocache-hunt-type attractions apply, such as challenging camouflage, exercise, playing with a GPS, being outside instead of hearing about Hillary on CNN, etc.

 

Common sense. Judgment call. No two people will draw the line in exactly the same place; therefore there is plenty of room for reasonable disagreement.

 

I’m glad it’s not a very common hide method, but I still say I don’t think ALL trash-camo caches are bad.

Please show me where I claimed that "it's OK if the general population think of geocachers as trash leaving, garbage strewing people."