Message for Mort25 WRT Mono Cliffhanger REV B

[+Couparangus]

For the love of pete! Regardless of your starting point you'll come to the new location to find this clue and won't need to go off trail. The reality of the situation is that you have no business interpreting Provincial Parks policy and certainly none in "enforcing" your perception of their rules. If you're truly interested in conservation why don't you direct your energies in cleaning up the area below the lookout platform where people regularly dump empty water bottles and other detritus?

Edited November 27, 2007 by Couparangus

[+Keith Watson]

Stay on the trail? I would hate to count all the caches that would have to be removed to enforce that rule. After saying that, a rule is a rule, but it has to be enforced evenly. Not as a response to a cache that a person, or beast, may have a problem with.

 

I sure hope it was the land owner that removed the cache. The reason I hope it was the land owner is because I find very few things in geocaching as disgusting as some self appointed cache police taking matters into their own hands. Just because someone leaves a container in the woods, does nor mean they give up all rights to it. It is still their property, regardless of what the approvers at geocaching.com think, or even the land owner. The person, or beast that took it, should have not removed it. I could forgive the beast, they are stupid creatures by human standards at understanding basic principals of not removing things that do not belong to them.

 

If I am following the story correctly and an individual has removed the cache, I would suggest they gather what ever morals they have left and put it back. I would also suggest to anyone wanting to act as cache police to take a good look around and fully understand the ramifications of their actions. By going after a cache or cacher, you may bring down more of a response than you thought. You could bring a ban on caching in an area, like we have seen before, or worse, have charges brought against an individual because of the stink that was raised.

[+Cache-tech]

Just because it was requested that the issue be taken off the cache page and brought here for discussion does not mean that the forum guidelines don't apply, read them please before any further responses are posted.

 

Forum Guidelines

 

KW, I am not sure what angle you are coming from, but no reviewer here has been involved beyond the review, confirming permission when the issue was raised some time ago and the request to stop using the cache page as a forum now. Please keep your personal issues out of this issue, if a land owner requests a cache removed, we will oblige, but that is not the case here. Thank you, if anything further in that regard, email or PM me directly.

[+Couparangus]

I guess a bit of background is in order. A cacher contacted me some time ago with respect to one of my caches, GCGK93. His complaint was that one of the stages, known as Big Old Pipes, was in an environmentally sensitive area of Mono Cliffs Provincial Park. I found this difficult to believe and went up to the park to have a look. What I determined was this is not an environmentally sensitive area by anyone's standards, its the site of an abandoned farm. This area, although not part of an official trail, is part of the park and used by the equestrian crowd. There are no signs indicating it is off-limits or any such thing. With a name like Mono Cliffs its easy to imagine that there are some cliffs there. Not too surprisingly there is a warning notice at the parking about this asking hikers to stay on the trail. The Big Old Pipes stage is well-removed from any cliffs, or any dangerous area for that matter. I was contacted by Mort25, a cacher whom I've never met nor had any previous dealings, to remove this stage or he'd remove the cache. No, I'm not making this up. Given that caches in Provincial Parks are a relative rarity, I didn't mind providing an alternate to the Big Old Pipes stage and this new one is directly on a trail. This seemed okay for a while, but Mort25 has more recently taken exception to the cache again and told me he was removing it. In a later email he then claimed that it had been removed by animals.

 

As it stands right now he's openly threatened to remove the container again if I re-stash it. Mort25 had indicated that he doesn't work for Provincial Parks and has no authority to enforce Park's rules, or Geocaching guidelines for that matter.

 

He's been made aware of what he needs to do with respect to contacting Provincial Parks with respect to this but has, to my knowledge, decided that he already has all the authority he needs to act directly.

 

I can back up all this with emails.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[+Keith Watson]

Just because it was requested that the issue be taken off the cache page and brought here for discussion does not mean that the forum guidelines don't apply, read them please before any further responses are posted.

 

Forum Guidelines

 

KW, I am not sure what angle you are coming from, but no reviewer here has been involved beyond the review, confirming permission when the issue was raised some time ago and the request to stop using the cache page as a forum now. Please keep your personal issues out of this issue, if a land owner requests a cache removed, we will oblige, but that is not the case here. Thank you, if anything further in that regard, email or PM me directly.

 

I read the guidelines and the only thing I figure I did wrong was suggest that people who remove caches that don’t belong to them have no morals. If this is not true, the please accept my apology for labelling this kind of activity.

 

As for the reference to the approvers, I was merely stating that the cache is still the property of the owner. If this has been misunderstood, I apologize for that as well.

 

I still stand by my views as I believe them to be.

[+2happy2gether]

Two instances that I can think of where I've run into a problem. One was simple, the cache was destroyed, I phoned the owner and told him I was pulling the container. Cut and dry. The second was with a local maple syrup business. The owner approached me as I was coming out of the woods and pretty much had me explain myself to him. I did, there was a misunderstanding and I vowed to contact the cache owner; which I did. Again, very simple and non-confrontational.

 

I don't understsand how anyone besides the owner, someone the owner has given permission to, or a land owner can blatantly pull a cache. I haven't completed the Mono cache yet, although I have been in the park. What I do know about the cache though is that it meets/met the guidelines for approval by all parties and therefore should be left as-is. Removing a cache that is clearly not yours without the owner's permission is showing a seriously large set of cajones.

 

Just because I don't like a micro in a playground I'm not going to pull the cache based on my beliefs.

 

I assume that Parks Ontario is aware of the cache and that all is fine and well with all of the stages. Afterall it is theirs and your decisions alone whether or not a stage should stay. They have people who get paid big bucks to do environmental surveys of these places.

 

my two cents

[+Couparangus]

Ah, some more clarification is in order:

 

Two instances that I can think of where I've run into a problem. One was simple, the cache was destroyed,

In my case its entirely different.

I don't understsand how anyone besides the owner, someone the owner has given permission to, or a land owner can blatantly pull a cache.

This is where is issue sits.

I assume that Parks Ontario is aware of the cache and that all is fine and well with all of the stages.

Of this, I don't know for certain. I do know that the cache was in situ well before any moratorium on Prov Parks 'caches. To my knowledge was indeed grandfathered in. I'm a card carrying member of OGA and to my knowledge they and the GC.com group have not been advised by Prov Parks there is anything with this cache that needs to be addressed. The reality is that if the cache has to be removed there will be no replacement and in my opinion, and others, that would be a very unfortunate.

 

Curiously enough, Mort25 has claimed that even if his Geocaching membership is canceled he'll sign back up with a sock puppet account to gain information on any new coordinates and attempt another removal of the cache.

 

I have some theories as to why he's acting like this but feel its prudent to give him the chance to explain his outrageous behaviour before I table them.

 

Cheers!

C-A

[danoshimano]

Sounds bizarre and unfortunate. I'd hate to see Mort25 succeed in destroying this excellent multi-cache. What the heck is on his mind? The "pipes" stage is not even close to what I would call environmentally sensitive. No more so than two of Mort25's five caches which are very much off the trail. No, that grass field is not sensitive at all. (Except where the grass has been killed by a bunch of concrete pipes.)

[+chris-mouse]

Interesting how Mort25 is complaining about a cache being in an ecologically sensitive area, yet all five of his caches are placed in a provincial nature reserve. A nature reserve is an area designated specifically to protect ecologically sensitive areas.

 

Why is it that a cache in a park is not acceptable, but one in a nature reserve is?

 

There is no excuse for a cacher to just remove a cache belonging to someone else. If you don't agree with the location, post a "should be archived" note with an explanation of why it should be archived. If the area does happen to be sensitive, simply removing the cache will make things worse, not better. With the cache missing, cachers will now spend even more time in the area stepping on vegetation as they search for the missing container.

[+2happy2gether]

Ok, now I'm really confused.

 

Most of this guy's caches, found and hidden, are in an area that is specifically designated as protected...as discussed earlier. I won't open up a can of worms about the Bruce Trail, because if it weren't for geocaching I wouldn't have hiked the darn thing.

 

Now, unless the Big Old Pipes are sacred in some way, I see no difference.

 

C-A, you have my support because I want to complete Mono Cliff Hanger before it's untimely archival.

[+Juicepig]

Sounds bizarre and unfortunate. I'd hate to see Mort25 succeed in destroying this excellent multi-cache. What the heck is on his mind? The "pipes" stage is not even close to what I would call environmentally sensitive. No more so than two of Mort25's five caches which are very much off the trail. No, that grass field is not sensitive at all. (Except where the grass has been killed by a bunch of concrete pipes.)

 

Mort25's caches are all placed on a power trail, and in a far more environmentally sensitive area then the "pipes" stage of CA's cache - Which is an abandonned farmers field.

 

I think that this issue needs to be addressed by the reviewers. I certainly don't agree with alot of caches out there but there is no way that anyone should be taking matters into their own hands and removing caches just because they feel like it.

 

That cache has been there a lot longer then Ontario Parks policy and never caused a problem. He should have gone to the reviewers or the owner long before this.

[+Cache-tech]

I don't see how this can be addressed by the reviewers further. The issue was brought to me several months ago, I addressed the cache owner who indicated there was no problem with the stage and even provided an alternate stage at that time. The cache was reviewed by myself when it was submitted, there was no geocaching policy issued by Ontario Parks then and I have never been contacted by Ontario Parks with issues concerning this cache placement. As far as the cache being removed other then the cache owner or Parks Ontario being the land manager, that is out of my hands, the listing has not been archived as it conforms to the listing guidelines of this site at the time it was published and Parks Ontario up to this point has not requested the removal of the cache.

[+Juicepig]

I don't see how this can be addressed by the reviewers further. The issue was brought to me several months ago, I addressed the cache owner who indicated there was no problem with the stage and even provided an alternate stage at that time. The cache was reviewed by myself when it was submitted, there was no geocaching policy issued by Ontario Parks then and I have never been contacted by Ontario Parks with issues concerning this cache placement. As far as the cache being removed other then the cache owner or Parks Ontario being the land manager, that is out of my hands, the listing has not been archived as it conforms to the listing guidelines of this site at the time it was published and Parks Ontario up to this point has not requested the removal of the cache.

 

Sorry I suppose you are correct. This is not a problem with the reviewers, or policy, but a single individual.

 

C-A, would you consider making this a premium members-only cache for a year? Maybe while this fellow goes to find another hobby while waiting for you to replace it? Also if you want to create an "I h8 mort25" topic on my forum, I promise I wont interfere

[mort25]

I'm not concerned with the area being environmentally friendly. My concern is that there are signs clearly stating to stay on the marked trails. It is not up to Mr. CA to decide which area they are referring to when they state this. I have both emails from cachedrone, and forum posts here, stating that people agree that this could potentially bring bad light on geocaching or individual geocachers. EXACTLY!! You all agree then, that by following this clue, you are breaking the rules of the park, and could get in trouble. Or have all caches ordered removed from Provincial Parks.

Yes I have placed 5 caches in the Hockley Valley Nature Reserve. But be my guest. Go and find the sign telling people to stay on the marked trails. I have broken no posted rules. And if I have, please let me know. I will gladly remove my caches or change them. It would be an oversight on my part, and I appreciate anyone pointing that out to me.

I have stated my point to Mr CA and given him many options. All of them most likey resulting in the cache remaining in the park. If he choses not to exercise the options I have given, all of them fair, then my feelings are well known.

I'm not concerned about the fact it is not my place to police geocaching, enforce the rules of a Provincal Park, or that I should not remove a cache myself. Berate me all you want. I am concerned with giving geocaching a bad name. Not myself.

Sorry, but my views stand.

Also, not that any of you believe me, and not that I need you to, but I did not remove the cache this time. Believe me, I went out there with the intent, but it was already gone. I was even somewhat disappointed. But rest assured, I will move it if it is replaced, and Mr CA has not looked into any of the options I have given him. Unfortunately, as geocaching is such a public game, and unable to be policed, there is nothing short of following my suggestions, that can stop me from following through on this.

Edited November 28, 2007 by mort25

[+northernpenguin]

 

Sorry, but my views stand.

 

You are welcome to your views. It is the vigilante type ACTION which you pursue that is objectionable to the caching community. Why do your rules apply when Groundspeak has no issue with the listing, and there has been no formal complaint from the land manager?

 

By all means, complain loudly about how much you dislike the cache - but unless you are the land manager or the cache owner, removing the cache is simply vandalizing a geocache. If everybody pulled the caches they dislike, then there would be no caches to seek.

 

Put the cache back where it belongs and use the proper channels to address this. Hell, call the park and tattle on the cache owner if it means that much to you. They'll remove the cache if they have a problem with it.

 

For example (JUST AN EXAMPLE) -- Say I decide that people panhandling on my street will bring down property values, or give my neighbourhood a bad name - doesn't mean I can go remove these people myself. I can, however contact my local councillor, bring the issue to them, and they may do something about it.

Edited November 28, 2007 by northernpenguin

[mort25]

If the cache is so important to the owner, then he will ensure that the rules of the park are being followed. I did my tattling, to Groundspeak, and nothing was done. Now I am doing things my way. Call it vandalizing, call it what ever you want. So be it. But as I said, nothing short of following my suggestions, can change my mind

[mort25]

Oh, and by the way, I started off by complaining loudly. But my note was deleted from the log by the owner when this situation first started. He didn't like that it gave away clues as to where the big old pipes are, so he deleted it. Even though it clearly states at the beginning of the logs that spoilers may be included. Was it removed so that no one could see what the problem was?

[danoshimano]

Mort25, I have no respect for your ACTIONS.

[mort25]

That's fine. Don't respect my actions. I don't need you too. I don't even know you.

[+TrimblesTrek]

Edited November 29, 2007 by TrimblesTrek

[+Juicepig]

If the cache is so important to the owner, then he will ensure that the rules of the park are being followed. I did my tattling, to Groundspeak, and nothing was done. Now I am doing things my way. Call it vandalizing, call it what ever you want. So be it. But as I said, nothing short of following my suggestions, can change my mind

 

He changed the cache for you! He modified it so all you had to do was read a number off a sign that was right along the trail, and yet you still had the intention of taking the final home with you. There is no pleasing you - he FOLLOWED your suggestions.

 

what would make you happy with this?

[mort25]

No problem, ban me. As I explained to CA before, I can simply sign up with another name and another email address. No problem there. This site is too public to achieve banning me. I will still be able to participate in the game.

And you have no grounds to threaten me with the law. This piece of "personal property" was left in a public place, intended to be found by the general public. If I chose to remove it, I would consider that lost and found, wouldn't you? Infact, I am invited by the game of geocaching to add and remove content from this piece of "personal property".

[+Tequila]

Mort,

 

The geocaching community is full of wonderful and well meaning people.

 

I have been here for over six years and my very first cache was a Coupar Angus cache. I drove over 50 miles to find it as it was the closest one to my Markham home. I didn't meet him until years later but found him to be a very nice guy.

 

Take some non-emotional advice.

 

If you really feel the cache is violating park rules, the Parks people are the one to enforce those rules. I have done this in the past, and they will take your concern seriously and investigate. Be prepared for whatever Parks Ontario decides and live with it.

 

This is a game. A fun game. And life is too short to ruin hundreds of potential friendships. As you continue in geocaching you will want to attend events (they are a blast). And you are going to meet Coupar Angus and all these other guys. And you will have a lot of fun.

 

Before this gets into another "personal attack" situation, post a note saying you will talk to Parks Ontario and live by their decision. If you have the container, a nice gesture would be to return it to its location.

 

Tequila

[mort25]

What would make me happy, would be removing the pipes clue from the page all together. Leaving it there with the option of an alternate clue, only feeds human curiosity. Of course people are still going to use the original clue. It woud be the most exciting clue to use. And it's obvious they have chosen to use the pipes clue by the pictures that have been posted since the alternate stage was added. Sure it's their choice then, but why even give them that choice. If they get caught going off the marked trails, then all of geocaching gets a bad name.

[danoshimano]

I will still be able to participate in the game.

 

Do you really want to? It is very much a community, after all.

 

By the way, there are a few rules posted HERE that are applicable to at least two of your five hides. Check out the very first rule, and the first part of the second rule.

[mort25]

Tequilla, thank you for your suggestion. I don't feel I need to make the effort and call Parks Ontario. If the cache is so important to CA, then he will call them himself, or change the clue. I'm sure he must be confident enough in his cache, that the answer he will get will be a positive one. I mean, hey, as far as he is concerned, there is nothing wrong with breaking posted rules, and leaving the marked trail.

As for the personal attacks, I am not concerned. I don't know these people, and their opinion of me does not matter. I have not attacked anyone personally, which is more than I can say for others on here. I am bigger than that.

As far as attending caching events, I have no intention. Never have. I only got into geocaching to add a little more fun to my hikes. I don't generally go out of my way to find them, which is obvious by the small number of caches that I have found.

But I truely do mean thanks for the suggestion/

[+Tequila]

Tequilla, thank you for your suggestion. I don't feel I need to make the effort and call Parks Ontario. If the cache is so important to CA, then he will call them himself, or change the clue. I'm sure he must be confident enough in his cache, that the answer he will get will be a positive one. I mean, hey, as far as he is concerned, there is nothing wrong with breaking posted rules, and leaving the marked trail.

As for the personal attacks, I am not concerned. I don't know these people, and their opinion of me does not matter. I have not attacked anyone personally, which is more than I can say for others on here. I am bigger than that.

As far as attending caching events, I have no intention. Never have. I only got into geocaching to add a little more fun to my hikes. I don't generally go out of my way to find them, which is obvious by the small number of caches that I have found.

But I truely do mean thanks for the suggestion/

 

One Question and One Comment:

 

Question: If C-A contacts P/O and they are ok with the cache, will you drop it? Your comment seems to indicate that is the case. Seems like a reasonable resolution.

 

Comment: You say you got into caching to add fun to your hikes. It won't be much fun when you meet someone coming at you with a GPS and they say "Hi, I'm Tequila, Who are you?" . Your answer won't be a popular one and unless you are the only person on the planet who does not want anyone to like him, you will have to make something up.

 

Finally, this cache was Tony's 1701st find. For that reason alone it deserves to stand forever.

[mort25]

OK, tell me which one's and I will remove them or fix them. But not sure if you noticed, none of my hides are on the Bruce Trail. They are all on the Glenn Cross Side trail. Sure it meets up with, and creates a loop with, the main trail, but it's not on the Bruce Trail. I was under the understanding that Groundspeak does not allow caches to be hidden on the Bruce Trail anymore. That is why I intentionally placed them on a side trail. So that I could FOLLOW THE RULES!!! It's all about technicalities.

[mort25]

That is all I have asked for from the very beginning of this situation, months ago. That CA contact Parks Ontario, or change the clue. That simple. And not about the location of the final find, but the pipes clue. And I would like to see the information the he recieves. And absolutly, I will restash the cache. I have already indicated that in a posting on the cache page, but it may have been removed. I will have to check. Even though, I didn't take it this time, wheather or not anyone believes me. (With which I am not concerned)

Also, I am not ashamed of myself or most things I do, this certainly being one of the times that I am not ashamed of. I have nothing to hide. I would not feel the need to lie about who I am. If I run into you, or any other cacher, I would have no problem telling them who I am. If they don't like me, too bad. I'm not looking for any new friends. I'm pretty happy with the ones I have.

As for Tony, I have no idea who he is. The cache will stand if CA follows some of my suggestions. Then the cache can become some elses marque find.

[+Tequila]

That is all I have asked for from the very beginning of this situation, months ago. That CA contact Parks Ontario, or change the clue. That simple. And not about the location of the final find, but the pipes clue. And I would like to see the information the he recieves. And absolutly, I will restash the cache. I have already indicated that in a posting on the cache page, but it may have been removed. I will have to check. Even though, I didn't take it this time, wheather or not anyone believes me. (With which I am not concerned)

Also, I am not ashamed of myself or most things I do, this certainly being one of the times that I am not ashamed of. I have nothing to hide. I would not feel the need to lie about who I am. If I run into you, or any other cacher, I would have no problem telling them who I am. If they don't like me, too bad. I'm not looking for any new friends. I'm pretty happy with the ones I have.

As for Tony, I have no idea who he is. The cache will stand if CA follows some of my suggestions. Then the cache can become some elses marque find.

 

Not knowing Tony is a great loss for you. He was your polar opposite.

 

I will wait for C/A to respond to my suggestion w.r.t. contacting P.O.

 

In the meantime, let's put this issue on hold before it becomes anymore antagonistic.

 

Thanks.

 

Tequila

[+parker2]

If they get caught going off the marked trails, then all of geocaching gets a bad name.

 

I have just read this thread, and I can not beleave my eyes. IMHO, If you think the cache is in any way harmful, go through the proper channels. My rule of thumb is to email the owner ans CC to the reviewer. I have done this while there was an interm policy for the Nat. Parks when a new cache was placed. I did this because I did not want any black marks towards the policy that was being worked on. Out of the 3 that I sent email for, I did not have any bad issues with anyone involved..... and better yet, met 3 new cachers that wanted to learn more about policy and ethics.

In this situation, I would of sent the email to both the reviewer and owner, state your opinion why the cache has issues, and let them hammer the problem out and ask them both to email you back with what has or will be done. You yourself, unless you are the owner, acting for the owner, or land manager have no right to remove any item from a given location as this would constitute theft. If you are not too sure about this statement, maybe someone will come to your land and remove something from your backyard as it might seem out of place.

 

Parker2

[mort25]

By polar opposite, do you mean he would be ok with shirking the posted rules of a Provincal Park? Because if not, it is hardly fair of you to make a judgement of my character without having ever known me. I have no doubt it is my loss that I do not know Tony.

As far as your suggestion to CA, it is the exact suggestion, among others, that I made to him many times. I gave him the opportunity months ago to contact Parks Ontario. But perhaps coming from someone he respects, he may take your advice. Not sure though. That would mean that he is also taking my advice, which he does not appear to be willing to do.

But I state once again, if I am wrong on this matter, then I will definately go and get a shiny, brand new, durable cache container to restash. As long as Parks Ontario is well aware of the location of the clue and what is required of the cacher to count the pipes.

[mort25]

Oh, and thank you Tequilla, for trying to mediate this.

[+Tequila]

By polar opposite, do you mean he would be ok with shirking the posted rules of a Provincal Park? Because if not, it is hardly fair of you to make a judgement of my character without having ever known me. I have no doubt it is my loss that I do not know Tony.

As far as your suggestion to CA, it is the exact suggestion, among others, that I made to him many times. I gave him the opportunity months ago to contact Parks Ontario. But perhaps coming from someone he respects, he may take your advice. Not sure though. That would mean that he is also taking my advice, which he does not appear to be willing to do.

But I state once again, if I am wrong on this matter, then I will definately go and get a shiny, brand new, durable cache container to restash. As long as Parks Ontario is well aware of the location of the clue and what is required of the cacher to count the pipes.

 

Let's give C/A an opportunity to respond to my suggestion.

 

Enough said.

[+Trucker Lee]

I have stated my point to Mr CA and given him many options. [snip] and Mr CA has not looked into any of the options I have given him. Unfortunately, as geocaching is such a public game, and unable to be policed, there is nothing short of following my suggestions, that can stop me from following through on this.

 

I'm not concerned about the fact it is not my place to police geocaching, enforce the rules of a Provincal Park, or that I should not remove a cache myself. Berate me all you want. I am concerned with giving geocaching a bad name. Not myself.

 

 

I appreciate efforts to prevent caching getting a bad name, and cannot speak to the issue of the cache as I have no knowledge of the area or the placement. I leave that to those that do.

 

I do question how you, Mort25, found yourself in a position that GIVES YOU THE AUTHORITY to dictate options to another party, or the right to enforce these as you threaten. And how would your actions, taking of another's property, not contribute to giving caching a bad name. By your actions, you defeat yourself.

 

What if other area cachers decide that your caches offend their ideas of compliance or placement? Do they, as you feel you do, have the right to demand you change your hides, or remove them? Will the same omnipotent power that granted you the authority you wield grant them same? Will this authority allow them to make you a pariah in the caching community in your area, unable to place caches without fear that your new identity be discovered and the cache stolen? Or all your finds deleted in petty retaliation? Would these actions help the good reputation of caching?

 

The mere presence of a sign may not mean that much. Just today, I went to court because an officer mis-interpreted a sign---suffice to say that I paid nothing when it was over. It is unfortunate that ths issue cannot be solved quietly, perhaps you and the cache owner could meet for lunch and caching, and take a look at this together, discussing in quiet and respectful tones the issues between you. (One of the greatest problems with forums and email is that we don't get to look the reader in the eye and respond to their reactions.) But, until that time you two do so, I would ask you to not dictate terms to those not on your payroll, and take no action to enforce your wishes lest you be caught with his property and complaint filed. You cannot ask to be treated any better than you are willing to treat others.

[mort25]

Please, Trucker Lee, read the entire thread before you go asking me questions. Everything you stated, I have already responded to. Everything from the placement of my caches, to the law being involved, to trying to hammer out a solution with the owner. I have no desire to meet him face to face. It is not that important to me to go that far out of my way. Email is fine. And before you go making a comment about it being important enough for me to go out of my way to move or remove the cache, remember, I hike alot, including in this park, so it is not out of my way at all.

And as far as authority, I don't need any. This is a public, unregulated game.

Edited November 29, 2007 by mort25

[+parker2]

 

And as far as authority, I don't need any. This is a public, unregulated game.

Except for the removal of personal property, I wonder what would happen if you removed one of my caches, as I do have land owner permission and the removal of anything from the land I would consider as THEFT and contact the authorities.

[mort25]

Wow, another issue I have already addressed. There is nothing from stopping me from simply moving the cache from one place to another, on the same land. Also, I have already addressed this, but I will again. I am invited by the game of geocaching to remove things from the container. If I chose to remove everything, including the container, then that was my take. Took container, LN.

But I don't plan on doing that. If people are so concerned about the law, my actions will be simply to move the cache.

But all of this can be avoided.

Wow, people have really taken offence to this.

Edited November 29, 2007 by mort25

[+TrimblesTrek]

Wow, people have really taken offence to this.

Ya think? !!

Might give you pause to wonder why!

[+AdventureRat]

Wow, people have really taken offence to this.

 

Wow? It's hard to believe that you're shocked at the general reaction to your comments.

 

Based upon your "hands on" approach to this issue, I would have a difficult time believing any documentation that C/A might provide of the proper authorities approving of his cache placement would be accepted by you. In my mind, you contacting the authorities is the only way you would ever believe what they said, but since you refuse to do that, I don't believe that the authorities could even sway you from your beliefs.

 

I'm very curious to hear your response.

[+parker2]

Wow, another issue I have already addressed. There is nothing from stopping me from simply moving the cache from one place to another, on the same land.

Well..... If you beleave in littering in a Park, go for it.... I think there might be a fine for that as well.

Also, I have already addressed this, but I will again. I am invited by the game of geocaching to remove things from the container. If I chose to remove everything, including the container, then that was my take. Took container, LN.

There you go again, you can not remove any items from someone's property w/o approval as this would be theft.

But I don't plan on doing that. If people are so concerned about the law, my actions will be simply to move the cache.

See my first point in this post.....

 

And it could of been avoided if you would of left things as they were, contacted the owner, reviewer, and if you must...... THE LAND OWNER. I do not have the foggiest of how long you have been geocaching, nor do I even care, but use some common sence and act like a human being. People make mistakes, deal with it in the best possible manner and leave things go. And if you think that the Parks do not watch there lands on geocaching.com, you got another thing comming. How else do you think they might be in need of a policy.

And on a side note..... Do you have land owner permission for your caches? I think I just might look into it myself later tonight with an email.

 

parker2

Edited November 29, 2007 by parker2

[mort25]

No problem. I work for another Ontario Government Ministry, and believe me, I will know if the response CA gets is legit. Wheather by email or form letter, there will be ways to tell.

As far as being surprised by everyone's reaction, I guess it goes back to Trucker Lee's post. You can't guage sarcasm on a forum.

[mort25]

By all means, please look into it to see if I have land owner permission. I already stated that if anyone knows of any problems with my cahes, I will be happy to rectify them.

As far as the littering, it is not. I can simply move it around, maybe even throw it in the garbage. It is on the same land, and they do provide garbage cans at the park. There are many ways around that problem.

Same with removing property, I state again, I am invited by geocaching to take and leave things at the cache. There is my approval.

And once again, I did start this entire thing off with contacting the cache owner, with out an acceptable result.

And one more point. Once CA has contacted Parks Ontario for approval on the pipes clue, and provides me with proof, I will then follow that up with the name that he provides me with. As long as he does the work in researching who to contact. It is more important to him than me.

Heck, I even know the Park super. He's my friends uncle. I have known him for years, but I am not in contact with him, and that's why I have not done this myself. CA can track him down.

Gotta go for the night.

I look forward to more responses, because I can easily justify all of my actions, no matter what you throw at me. But don't bother with hypothetical questions and situations, because they are irrelevant to this situation.

[+geezer55]

So mort25, it is legal for you leave the path to remove the cache but it is illegal for CA to put the cache there in the first place. That seems like a double standard. What would have been ethical of you would have been, going to your friends uncle and letting him make the decision and both you and CA living with what he decided, but what it sounds like you want it your way and only your way.

[+Juicepig]

That is all I have asked for from the very beginning of this situation, months ago. That CA contact Parks Ontario, or change the clue. That simple.

 

HE DID - MONTHS AGO. READ THE CACHE PAGE. You no longer even have to go to the pipes!! Just read a sign posted next to the trail

 

I will ask again, since you seem to be answering everyone's post but mine. What will make you happy?

[+CacheDrone]

Please do not use my words out of context. This is part of the email that was sent by this reviewer regarding this situation and does not imply that the cache in question puts geocaching in a bad light.

 

Ontario Parks agreed to leave all existing caches in place. In fact the coordinator of this directive stated that no caches were to be removed by any park staff without his permission. Ontario Parks assumedly has looked at every cache on their property and has been in contact with Cache-Tech about any that they are concerned about. Even though I am not the reviewer that published this listing I am fully aware of all existing guidelines and the history of geocaching within Ontario.

 

And in my follow up

 

Ontario Parks has deemed all remaining geocaches as acceptable and will contact the reviewers if there is an issue to be addressed. The cache owner has provided an alternate method to determine the needed answer and therefore it is up to players seeking the cache to make the choice of how they will observe the park rules. Again, all park authorities have been made aware of geocaching and how to determine if caches are on their property. The local park authority should have reviewed this listing already and made their decision. Posting notes like those that have been posted on this listing will be far more damaging to geocaching than how this cache is currently configured. All cache pages are public including all of the log entries. Should Ontario Parks be reviewing those, they would not show geocaching in a favourable light either.

 

In short, Ontario Parks has allowed it to remain in place, it has meet the listing guidelines for Groundspeak and the local reviewers, and players themselves are responsible for deciding how they wish to enjoy the search for the clues and the cache itself.

[+Keith Watson]

A little tid bit on the law. If you posses someone else's property and they ask for it back, you must return it.

[mort25]

Cachedrone, you are admitting that if Parks Ontario reads the logs, they will not look favourably on geocaching. Hence proving that I am stating only facts. Why else would this make geocaching look bad, if I have posted only truthful facts?

And juice Pig if you read everything, I did answer your post.

Geezer55 - i did not have to leave the marked trail. It was placed behind a boulder behind a bush. I could easilyreach through the bush and over the boulder to get the cache.

And finally Mr Watson - you should educate yourself on the law. Possession is 9/10ths of the law. It is not that simple. And regardless, I am not in posession of anyone elses property.

And as far as contacting the Park super myself, I already explained this. It is not that important to me to make the effort. It is not my cache. If it is that important, than the owner can contact him himself.

You can all continue to trash me, and question me, but I have been more than clear on my stance, and what can be done to fix it. Say whay you may, but I will not budge.

All you are doing now is keeping me entertained. I quite enjoy rebuffing each claim that comes my way. Not one has been justified or left me with out an answer. But now that I have said that, I'm sure someone will rack their brain and come up with something. And when that happens, I will have no problem admitting where I am wrong.

[+moop]

By all means, please look into it to see if I have land owner permission. I already stated that if anyone knows of any problems with my cahes, I will be happy to rectify them.

<snip>

Once CA has contacted Parks Ontario for approval on the pipes clue, and provides me with proof, I will then follow that up with the name that he provides me with. As long as he does the work in researching who to contact.

<snip>

 

To paraphrase - "I refuse to do research for my own or others' caches."

 

Methinks you are hoist by your own petard.

[mort25]

Not a problem. If you feel there is a problem with my caches, feel free to take whatever action you feel necessary. They are not that important to me to do that much research. If they are delisted, then so be it. I don't take this hobby that seriously. If anyone is that concerned about my caches, and can prove that I have violated any rules, then I will move them or delist them myself. But I wold hope that I would be given options, just as I gave CA options to fix his cache.