mort25

One last pont. You all seem to be down on me for not following the reviewers directions. What about CA? He was advised by either cachedrone or cache tech on this thread to remove the pipes clue if it is infact off the trail, regardless of current use. It is clearly off the marked trail. Feel free to replace the cache. Feel free to make it a premium member cache. Periodic checks will fix that. I am in the park on a regular basis. I live 10 minutes away. As for your threat to come and visit me personally CA, please feel free to send me a message, and I will give you my address myself. By the way, what are your plans when you get here? To talk to me? That wont change my mind. If you have other plans, then so be it. I look forward to your visit, as I will relocate the cache each and every time I find it. I wont take your threat personally, or seriously, as I HIGHLY doubt you will follow through. Correction, I KNOW you wont follow through, as you seem to be smarter than that. And don't take that as a compliment, because that is not how it is intended. I did offer to tell you when the cache is moved, but if you want to threaten me, then perhaps I wont. How many frustrated cachers do you think there will be when they go out there expecting to find the cache, but have no luck? Is this cache really worth this much effort to you? I hope your principles are as strong as mine, because it's worth it to me. Lets all have some fun, as it appears as though the game of cat and mouse is on!!! It's your move. All of you. Replace it. See you soon CA!!

Funny, you have better things to do than shoot holes in everything I said? Yet the time to write further after that. No, I have not done any of this at work. I work too hard and get paid WAY to much to waste time on this at work. I have a job to do. And yes, I have written many words here, of bile as you state. But I have no desire to do the research. It takes nothing for me to sit at my computer and type this stuff out. Feel free to replace the container. You know where I stand. That does not change. No matter what you, or anyone else on this forum states, it does not change. Argue it all you want. Poke all the holes you want. Make any threats you want. It does not change. Tell me I'm wasting my time going out there, yet I could do the research with less effort, it does not change. (Remember, I love to hike, so it's no effort at all going out there). If you are not going to bother doing the research, if your cache is not that important to you, then you are wasting your time going out there to replace it. If people are concerned about my well being, and the fact that they believe I can have some sort of charges brought against me, be it for littering or stealing, well I am not concerned. (Sense the sarcasim - not sure if you can get that on the computer). Feel free to go out there and replace it. I have plenty of time time go for a hike myself. I will have the courtesy of letting you know when it is no longer where you put it. I don't want anyone wasting their time looking for it if it's not there. Oh, and as for "lone sign" as you state, there are 2 for sure, one at the only official entrance off 3rd line, and one at the old entrance off 2nd line. Not sure about the old entrance off County Rd 8. I can check and take a couple of pictures if you like. I can even put them in the gallery for the cache, after I have gone to check on it once replaced. Anyway, enough for now. Time for work you know. But remember, no argument or threat will change my mind. You have been made well aware of the only thing that will, so feel free to do as you please with this.

I also have to laugh. All of you are attacking me for my morals and my tactics. But what about the owner, who is clearly breaking the rules, and refuses to get clarification from the proper authorities. All of you defend him. Where are your morals and values? A reality check perhaps!?!

Let me correct something I have said. Geocahcing does not mean enough to me to check if my caches violate any posted rules. As far as I know, I have not. If I have violated rules I am not aware of, please let me know. I will fix the problem one way or another. If I have not broken any posted rules, then I am not concerned enough with my caches, or the game, to look any deeper. If they need to go, then they need to go. I have pointed out where a fellow geocachers stash (or clue) HAS violated posted rules, and nothing was done to rectify it. Not even an enquiry to Parks Ontario. Simply a refusal. Myself, if I violated a posted rule I was not aware of, I wouldn't even put the effort into a phone call to the propper authorities to clarify. I would just move the cache (or the clue) and carry on. It would be pretty obvious that I was wrong. Heck, it's on a sign at the front of the park.

Thank you cache tech. That is all I have asked from the beginning. I have not, and will not touch the cache, if the park rules are followed. (although the intent is and was there, I will not deny.) I want to be allowed to hike, and geocache, where I chose. If we continue to break the rules, then people will not have any respect for either of these activities, and will no longer want us to use their land. Public, or private. Perhaps Groundspeak needs to revisit the reasons caches were banned from being placed in Provincial Parks in the first place. That is only a thought, as I have no idea what the original reasons were.

Infact, I will explain one last time. The pipes clue is well off the marked trail. There are signs posted at the entrance to the park advising users to stay on the marked trail. I have asked the owner to change that clue, which he has not done. He only put an alternate clue, leaving the option to use the pipes clue and still go off the marked trail. Which people have done. I gave him the option of contacting Ontario Parks to find out if this clue violates the rules, which he has not. Many warnings went out that I would remove the cache. Nothing was done, I went to remove the cache and it was already gone (wheather or not you chose to believe me, I don't care) I am not concerned with Groundspeak rules. This clearly violates a posted park rule. Excercise the options, and I will mind my own business. Geocaching is not imoprtant enough to me to research if my caches violate any rules. Nothing is posted at the enterance to the reserve. If they violate the rules, then let me know, and I will change them or remove them. What is important to me, is following the rules of the park. Now I'm done. That is unless someone posts a reply that I feel warrants a response from me. Otherwise, you can all have fun debating this with each other. Until this problem is rectified to my satisfaction, no one can stop what I am doing.

K, I'm done with this now. We are going in circles. Unless someone has something to prove beyond a doubt that I am wrong about the pipes clue, I have nothing more to say. I will not defend my position anymore, and I have explained it many times. I will also not change it. To those who continue to misunderstand what I am trying to say - see chris mouse - please read the entire thread. If someone has information that the caches I have placed are inappropriate, please let me know so that I can rectify the situation. Otherwise, I am done with that as well. Bye all.

Not a problem. If you feel there is a problem with my caches, feel free to take whatever action you feel necessary. They are not that important to me to do that much research. If they are delisted, then so be it. I don't take this hobby that seriously. If anyone is that concerned about my caches, and can prove that I have violated any rules, then I will move them or delist them myself. But I wold hope that I would be given options, just as I gave CA options to fix his cache.

Cachedrone, you are admitting that if Parks Ontario reads the logs, they will not look favourably on geocaching. Hence proving that I am stating only facts. Why else would this make geocaching look bad, if I have posted only truthful facts? And juice Pig if you read everything, I did answer your post. Geezer55 - i did not have to leave the marked trail. It was placed behind a boulder behind a bush. I could easilyreach through the bush and over the boulder to get the cache. And finally Mr Watson - you should educate yourself on the law. Possession is 9/10ths of the law. It is not that simple. And regardless, I am not in posession of anyone elses property. And as far as contacting the Park super myself, I already explained this. It is not that important to me to make the effort. It is not my cache. If it is that important, than the owner can contact him himself. You can all continue to trash me, and question me, but I have been more than clear on my stance, and what can be done to fix it. Say whay you may, but I will not budge. All you are doing now is keeping me entertained. I quite enjoy rebuffing each claim that comes my way. Not one has been justified or left me with out an answer. But now that I have said that, I'm sure someone will rack their brain and come up with something. And when that happens, I will have no problem admitting where I am wrong.

By all means, please look into it to see if I have land owner permission. I already stated that if anyone knows of any problems with my cahes, I will be happy to rectify them. As far as the littering, it is not. I can simply move it around, maybe even throw it in the garbage. It is on the same land, and they do provide garbage cans at the park. There are many ways around that problem. Same with removing property, I state again, I am invited by geocaching to take and leave things at the cache. There is my approval. And once again, I did start this entire thing off with contacting the cache owner, with out an acceptable result. And one more point. Once CA has contacted Parks Ontario for approval on the pipes clue, and provides me with proof, I will then follow that up with the name that he provides me with. As long as he does the work in researching who to contact. It is more important to him than me. Heck, I even know the Park super. He's my friends uncle. I have known him for years, but I am not in contact with him, and that's why I have not done this myself. CA can track him down. Gotta go for the night. I look forward to more responses, because I can easily justify all of my actions, no matter what you throw at me. But don't bother with hypothetical questions and situations, because they are irrelevant to this situation.

No problem. I work for another Ontario Government Ministry, and believe me, I will know if the response CA gets is legit. Wheather by email or form letter, there will be ways to tell. As far as being surprised by everyone's reaction, I guess it goes back to Trucker Lee's post. You can't guage sarcasm on a forum.

Wow, another issue I have already addressed. There is nothing from stopping me from simply moving the cache from one place to another, on the same land. Also, I have already addressed this, but I will again. I am invited by the game of geocaching to remove things from the container. If I chose to remove everything, including the container, then that was my take. Took container, LN. But I don't plan on doing that. If people are so concerned about the law, my actions will be simply to move the cache. But all of this can be avoided. Wow, people have really taken offence to this.

Please, Trucker Lee, read the entire thread before you go asking me questions. Everything you stated, I have already responded to. Everything from the placement of my caches, to the law being involved, to trying to hammer out a solution with the owner. I have no desire to meet him face to face. It is not that important to me to go that far out of my way. Email is fine. And before you go making a comment about it being important enough for me to go out of my way to move or remove the cache, remember, I hike alot, including in this park, so it is not out of my way at all. And as far as authority, I don't need any. This is a public, unregulated game.

Oh, and thank you Tequilla, for trying to mediate this.

By polar opposite, do you mean he would be ok with shirking the posted rules of a Provincal Park? Because if not, it is hardly fair of you to make a judgement of my character without having ever known me. I have no doubt it is my loss that I do not know Tony. As far as your suggestion to CA, it is the exact suggestion, among others, that I made to him many times. I gave him the opportunity months ago to contact Parks Ontario. But perhaps coming from someone he respects, he may take your advice. Not sure though. That would mean that he is also taking my advice, which he does not appear to be willing to do. But I state once again, if I am wrong on this matter, then I will definately go and get a shiny, brand new, durable cache container to restash. As long as Parks Ontario is well aware of the location of the clue and what is required of the cacher to count the pipes.

That is all I have asked for from the very beginning of this situation, months ago. That CA contact Parks Ontario, or change the clue. That simple. And not about the location of the final find, but the pipes clue. And I would like to see the information the he recieves. And absolutly, I will restash the cache. I have already indicated that in a posting on the cache page, but it may have been removed. I will have to check. Even though, I didn't take it this time, wheather or not anyone believes me. (With which I am not concerned) Also, I am not ashamed of myself or most things I do, this certainly being one of the times that I am not ashamed of. I have nothing to hide. I would not feel the need to lie about who I am. If I run into you, or any other cacher, I would have no problem telling them who I am. If they don't like me, too bad. I'm not looking for any new friends. I'm pretty happy with the ones I have. As for Tony, I have no idea who he is. The cache will stand if CA follows some of my suggestions. Then the cache can become some elses marque find.

OK, tell me which one's and I will remove them or fix them. But not sure if you noticed, none of my hides are on the Bruce Trail. They are all on the Glenn Cross Side trail. Sure it meets up with, and creates a loop with, the main trail, but it's not on the Bruce Trail. I was under the understanding that Groundspeak does not allow caches to be hidden on the Bruce Trail anymore. That is why I intentionally placed them on a side trail. So that I could FOLLOW THE RULES!!! It's all about technicalities.

Tequilla, thank you for your suggestion. I don't feel I need to make the effort and call Parks Ontario. If the cache is so important to CA, then he will call them himself, or change the clue. I'm sure he must be confident enough in his cache, that the answer he will get will be a positive one. I mean, hey, as far as he is concerned, there is nothing wrong with breaking posted rules, and leaving the marked trail. As for the personal attacks, I am not concerned. I don't know these people, and their opinion of me does not matter. I have not attacked anyone personally, which is more than I can say for others on here. I am bigger than that. As far as attending caching events, I have no intention. Never have. I only got into geocaching to add a little more fun to my hikes. I don't generally go out of my way to find them, which is obvious by the small number of caches that I have found. But I truely do mean thanks for the suggestion/

What would make me happy, would be removing the pipes clue from the page all together. Leaving it there with the option of an alternate clue, only feeds human curiosity. Of course people are still going to use the original clue. It woud be the most exciting clue to use. And it's obvious they have chosen to use the pipes clue by the pictures that have been posted since the alternate stage was added. Sure it's their choice then, but why even give them that choice. If they get caught going off the marked trails, then all of geocaching gets a bad name.

No problem, ban me. As I explained to CA before, I can simply sign up with another name and another email address. No problem there. This site is too public to achieve banning me. I will still be able to participate in the game. And you have no grounds to threaten me with the law. This piece of "personal property" was left in a public place, intended to be found by the general public. If I chose to remove it, I would consider that lost and found, wouldn't you? Infact, I am invited by the game of geocaching to add and remove content from this piece of "personal property".

That's fine. Don't respect my actions. I don't need you too. I don't even know you.

Oh, and by the way, I started off by complaining loudly. But my note was deleted from the log by the owner when this situation first started. He didn't like that it gave away clues as to where the big old pipes are, so he deleted it. Even though it clearly states at the beginning of the logs that spoilers may be included. Was it removed so that no one could see what the problem was?

If the cache is so important to the owner, then he will ensure that the rules of the park are being followed. I did my tattling, to Groundspeak, and nothing was done. Now I am doing things my way. Call it vandalizing, call it what ever you want. So be it. But as I said, nothing short of following my suggestions, can change my mind

I'm not concerned with the area being environmentally friendly. My concern is that there are signs clearly stating to stay on the marked trails. It is not up to Mr. CA to decide which area they are referring to when they state this. I have both emails from cachedrone, and forum posts here, stating that people agree that this could potentially bring bad light on geocaching or individual geocachers. EXACTLY!! You all agree then, that by following this clue, you are breaking the rules of the park, and could get in trouble. Or have all caches ordered removed from Provincial Parks. Yes I have placed 5 caches in the Hockley Valley Nature Reserve. But be my guest. Go and find the sign telling people to stay on the marked trails. I have broken no posted rules. And if I have, please let me know. I will gladly remove my caches or change them. It would be an oversight on my part, and I appreciate anyone pointing that out to me. I have stated my point to Mr CA and given him many options. All of them most likey resulting in the cache remaining in the park. If he choses not to exercise the options I have given, all of them fair, then my feelings are well known. I'm not concerned about the fact it is not my place to police geocaching, enforce the rules of a Provincal Park, or that I should not remove a cache myself. Berate me all you want. I am concerned with giving geocaching a bad name. Not myself. Sorry, but my views stand. Also, not that any of you believe me, and not that I need you to, but I did not remove the cache this time. Believe me, I went out there with the intent, but it was already gone. I was even somewhat disappointed. But rest assured, I will move it if it is replaced, and Mr CA has not looked into any of the options I have given him. Unfortunately, as geocaching is such a public game, and unable to be policed, there is nothing short of following my suggestions, that can stop me from following through on this.

I have the Vista C and might, in a few months, when the inevitable right-after-release-bugs are worked out, upgrade to the Vista HCx. I prefer the small size of my Vista C and prefer the action of the Click Stick compared to the 60 Cx/CSx. As for durability, I dropped my Vista C from my pack when I was near the edge of a 150' dropoff. The GPSr bounced once, twice, and then flew into the air. When we found it at the bottom, the neoprene case was off of it, it had a few new dings, and it was still on! I'd say that is pretty good durability . . .