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Killerb

Event Caches

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I have seen in some cases that event caches are being logged as finds, by logging into the event several times, being determined by the amout of event caches completed. In one way this seems fair, but is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable? Time and effort are put into the hiding and finding of these caches and it seems as though credit should be given to, at least the finder.

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Can of worms topic......

 

MY personal take on this is that it is a cheesy practice and I wish they would alter the system to prevent it. If they don't have a GC number and haven't been reviewed - then it should not count. Otherwise I could go out and find anything thrown out in the woods and claim a smiley for it.

 

1 GC # should equal 1 and only 1 find. Not that way now but I think it should be.

 

Others will disagree......

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I have seen in some cases that event caches are being logged as finds, by logging into the event several times, being determined by the amout of event caches completed. In one way this seems fair, but is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable? Time and effort are put into the hiding and finding of these caches and it seems as though credit should be given to, at least the finder.

Ummm... Okay.... I see... So...

 

You are saying that "credit should be given...".

 

Well, "credit should be given" by whom? By an organization/website (i.e., geocaching.com) which never listed the "cache" and for a "cache" which never conformed to its requirements and guidelines? Under your proposed rules, does that mean that I can go out in my backyard to the woodpile, call every chunk of firewood a "cache", and then log 887 smilies on your event because I found 887 pieces of firewood in my backyard? After all, it took me a lot of time and effort to cut and stack that firewood, and I would love to get smilies for my effort!

 

Thanks for the 887 smilies; please do the needful and send me the GC waypoint ID for your most recent event so that I may log them! This is GREAT! Super!

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I have seen in some cases that event caches are being logged as finds, by logging into the event several times, being determined by the amout of event caches completed. In one way this seems fair, but is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable? Time and effort are put into the hiding and finding of these caches and it seems as though credit should be given to, at least the finder.

 

I've never met the OP, but he's from my general area. Before this really gets out of hand, note that he's been around for quite a while, but only has 5 posts. Whatever happened to Tadpole status, did they get rid of that? Anyways, I can assure you he's only familiar with a small number (5 or less), of outstanding hiking caches placed for events. True, they weren't reviewed or listed on this website. But he also, I'm sure, has no idea of how controversial this topic is, or that some events have been logged over 60 times. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. :ph34r:

 

Oh, and the answer is, it's up to the owner of the event to decide whether or not to allow the multiple logs, and geocaching.com hasn't stopped it. So I guess you can say they allow it.

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel

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I have seen in some cases that event caches are being logged as finds, by logging into the event several times, being determined by the amout of event caches completed. In one way this seems fair, but is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable? Time and effort are put into the hiding and finding of these caches and it seems as though credit should be given to, at least the finder.

 

Read these past "dead horses."

 

Double logging and geo-ethics

 

Multiple Finds on one Cache

 

Pocket Caches are Back?

 

The new numbers game.

 

Rediculious Event: Number Game????

 

Multiple Attending of Events

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Can of worms topic......

 

MY personal take on this is that it is a cheesy practice and I wish they would alter the system to prevent it. If they don't have a GC number and haven't been reviewed - then it should not count. Otherwise I could go out and find anything thrown out in the woods and claim a smiley for it.

 

1 GC # should equal 1 and only 1 find. Not that way now but I think it should be.

 

Others will disagree......

I whole heartedly agree! If it doesn't have a waypoint ID on this web site then it should not be logged a find on this web site. :ph34r:

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In Oklahoma we have Spring Fling and Fall Fest every year , the last few events have had alot of cachers :( , some where around 100 cachers :D and none that i have seen log temp caches :o !! The hide and seek game. :D Its about who comes up with the cool hides :ph34r: !! Getting to camp out and having fun :( !! There are cachers in Ok that are in to numbers :D , But not this way that I have seen :D !!

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I just hosted a 3-day event weekend for a few hundred friends from all over the country, consisting of four formal (listed) events and two informal.

 

I am hosting a trout fishing trip and fish-fry next Saturday, and on the 20th of this month I will host the AGA's 4th Birthday Bash.

 

All of them have unlisted temporary event hides to be found, and any cacher that wants to can log an Attended or Found log for each one if they choose to do so.

 

I don't care who does or who doesn't, and certainly wont be watching the logs to see!

 

I hide caches and host events to have fun and provide it to others, not to tell folks how to play the game!

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...it's up to the owner of the event to decide whether or not to allow the multiple logs...

 

There you go, that is the correct answer, short and succinct.

It is perfectly acceptable in many places, your local community and those hosting events in your area can provide clear guidance.

 

Some of the people on these forums have a very limited view of geocaching, they feel having fun is secondary and they want everyone else to be restricted to the choices they have made for themselves.

I am very glad it works the way it does.

Offering the freedom of choice to both seekers and hiders is an obvious way to ensure that everyone can enjoy geocaching in the fashion they choose. Restricting everyone to some narrow view makes no sense to me.

This all becomes very clear when you realize that finding a geocache means nothing and fun isn't an activity that can be tallied up to get a score.

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Can of worms topic......

 

MY personal take on this is that it is a cheesy practice and I wish they would alter the system to prevent it. If they don't have a GC number and haven't been reviewed - then it should not count. Otherwise I could go out and find anything thrown out in the woods and claim a smiley for it.

 

1 GC # should equal 1 and only 1 find. Not that way now but I think it should be.

 

Others will disagree......

 

I agree. I've seen so many people "pad" their numbers by logging pocket caches, "event" caches, etc and think that it's rather lame, but that's me. I know the original poster well and it's definitely not a widely accepted practice in his area that I'm aware of.

Edited by HuckleBuckle

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1 GC # should equal 1 and only 1 find.

Others will disagree......

 

I agree, others will disagree.

 

I think that your statement is just totally lame.

 

Perhaps you can explain why everyone should be controlled this way?

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...it's up to the owner of the event to decide whether or not to allow the multiple logs...

 

There you go, that is the correct answer, short and succinct.

It is perfectly acceptable in many places, your local community and those hosting events in your area can provide clear guidance.

 

Some of the people on these forums have a very limited view of geocaching, they feel having fun is secondary and they want everyone else to be restricted to the choices they have made for themselves.

I am very glad it works the way it does.

Offering the freedom of choice to both seekers and hiders is an obvious way to ensure that everyone can enjoy geocaching in the fashion they choose. Restricting everyone to some narrow view makes no sense to me.

This all becomes very clear when you realize that finding a geocache means nothing and fun isn't an activity that can be tallied up to get a score.

Where do you draw the line? Is there a line?

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I'll have to stand with the folks who log all the caches they find at an event. Myself, I only log the ones I actually find so I do sleep considerably well at night.

 

Nit picking about "cheating" .... naaah. It's a cache, hidden with coordinates after all, ain't it?

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Where do you draw the line? Is there a line?

 

The line is between the seeker and the hider.

The cache owner assumes all responsibility for the listing.

 

People do post multiple Attended logs at events, they are not hurting anyone and if the cache owner says it is OK, then it is. The multiple logs left on the event cache are just that, multiple logs on an event cache. No rules are being broken.

 

Can you see any reason why people need to be controlled in the manner suggested by StarBrand?

 

Finding a geocache doesn't mean anything, it is just fun.

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Where do you draw the line? Is there a line?

 

The line is between the seeker and the hider.

The cache owner assumes all responsibility for the listing.

 

People do post multiple Attended logs at events, they are not hurting anyone and if the cache owner says it is OK, then it is. The multiple logs left on the event cache are just that, multiple logs on an event cache. No rules are being broken.

 

Can you see any reason why people need to be controlled in the manner suggested by StarBrand?

 

Finding a geocache doesn't mean anything, it is just fun.

You didn't answer my question. So I'll ask it a different way: Would it be OK if some hider put 1000 film cannisters inside a 55 gallon drum and let people log them all?

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I'll have to stand with the folks who log all the caches they find at an event. Myself, I only log the ones I actually find so I do sleep considerably well at night.

 

Nit picking about "cheating" .... naaah. It's a cache, hidden with coordinates after all, ain't it?

 

I have never thought of cachers who do this as being cheaters but i do look at it as not being a wise practice. For me there are two obvious reasons not to log temp caches.

 

#1. True, cachers who do this did indeed find a cache so i can somewhat understand why they want to log a find on it. This would be fine and dandy but if they cared about their stats, then they should realize that they are messing them up when they do this. Short of going through and reading every log, there's no easy way of discerning how many events they actually attended and how many temporary caches they really found. Their "events attended" number is pretty much useless now. :(

 

#2. Temporary caches aren't even listed on GC.com so i'm not sure why someone would think that they should log them on the site. If it really didn't matter, then why not go ahead and log terracaches and navicaches here too? :o

 

I really have tried to look at this from the other side of the fence but the only thing i see here is that some cachers simply love smilies and they come up with a variety of ways to get em no matter what! :ph34r:

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Would it be OK if some hider put 1000 film cannisters inside a 55 gallon drum and let people log them all?

 

If it was approved that way and they had fun finding them and the hider let them log it that way then no harm is done so sure it would be OK.

Perhaps you can tell me why you think that example falls outside of my first response?

 

It isn't about good smilies vs bad smilies, every smiley is the same, a little yellow happy face that means nothing. They still mean nothing even if there is a thousand of them, they mean nothing even if there is twenty thousand of them, some people have a lot of trouble with that concept.

 

Do you think a smiley count means something?

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This would be fine and dandy but if they cared about their stats, then they should realize that they are messing them up when they do this.

 

This is a good point.

There is no facility for recording the adventures they undertook while attending the event and logging all the caches they found in this fashion can be interpreted either way.

I think it is good to allow that they really don't care about stats but might just want an accurate record of their geocaching adventures that can be read at some future point. The memories will be in the individual logs, not in the Stats bar so making sure they record the adventures is a viable option for many.

 

.

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Score inflation by multiple logging of events simply gives the perpretator the same status as the wearer of an unconvincing comb-over, just smile and move on.

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To me it's absurd. You are logging an "attended". You can only attend an event once (I guess unless you keep leaving and returning).

 

Multiple logging of events is a numbers pumping scheme plain and simple. The point of logs on this website is to log caches listed here. I can't understand how people could think it's acceptable to use this website's resources to store logs for caches that are not listed here. What's next, logging caches listed on Terracaching and Navicaching here?

 

I know the practice really doesn't hurt anything, except perhaps the reputation of the person who does it. It's not a common practice in this area, but there are a few people who do it. Let's just say that their reputation isn't a good one and they are the source of jokes at gatherings.

Edited by briansnat

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... but is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable?

I think one owner of this site called it "silly." They've nothing to prevent it. So, while it might not be "acceptable" it is accepted.

 

IMHO, the find is between the finder and the owner. It is cheesy to post unearned finds and I will continue to try to keep our caches clean.

 

Additionally, once you realize the "official" find count is FUBAR then the easier it is to accept questionable logging practices. For instance, can you tell how many caches I've found? Kind of, sort of. It's not accurate. I've not logged some caches I have found. I've found caches not listed on this site. I've logged a cache event or two--are they really caches?

 

The find count is no real indication of worth. Some folks may try to place worth on it, but I've encountered cachers with counts well into the four digits and, IMHO, absolutely suck lollipops as geocachers.

 

So, if it's a cache--a container with a signable logbook, maybe some trinkets to which pointed some coordinates--then it's a cache that can be claimed as a find. Where and how it is logged is pretty much up to the logger and owner of where it is logged.

 

You don't have to agree. You don't have to accept any one person's claim. You just have to realize you take any one find count with a grain of salt. Only you can determine how much validity you can put into the claim.

 

None of the above advocates throwing out all norms. I still believe a find is a signed logbook, etc. But I'm not going to lose sleep over someone logging unearned finds on someone else's cache. I will, however, think less of the cache owner who allows an unearned find to stand. But that's just me.

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I have seen in some cases that event caches are being logged as finds, by logging into the event several times, being determined by the amout of event caches completed. In one way this seems fair, but..

 

It's silly and asinine behavior to do that.

 

..is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable?

 

It's also silly and asinine to be overly concerned whether others are doing it. ;)

 

Time and effort are put into the hiding and finding of these caches and it seems as though credit should be given to, at least the finder.

 

Do you really need "credit" to have a good time? All thats really needed is one detailed event log mentioning all the fun you had, isnt it? :)

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I'll have to stand with the folks who log all the caches they find at an event. Myself, I only log the ones I actually find so I do sleep considerably well at night.

 

Nit picking about "cheating" .... naaah. It's a cache, hidden with coordinates after all, ain't it?

You have 11 event "finds" on 3 actual events. That doesn't seem a bit messed up to you?

 

I know the practice really doesn't hurt anything, except perhaps the reputation of the person who does it. It's not a common practice in this area, but there are a few people who do it. Let's just say that their reputation isn't a good one and they are the source of jokes at gatherings.

People can say all they want about "its just a game" and "numbers don't matter" but it does come down to integrity. If you're willing to claim finds on caches that aren't listed on this site what else are you willing to do? Log caches that you haven't found? Where does it stop?

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People can say all they want about "its just a game" and "numbers don't matter" but it does come down to integrity. If you're willing to claim finds on caches that aren't listed on this site what else are you willing to do? Log caches that you haven't found? Where does it stop?

<Gasp!> Oh, the horror! And, either one of these scenarios affects the way I play the game... just how, again?

 

I just attended another event this past weekend. I logged one time, as that was the rule established by the host of the event. We talked about this practice among ourselves, and our general conclusion was that too many people worry too much about this non-issue. It doesn't change the way we play the game, so who really cares?

 

As for "cheating"...how can you "cheat" at a game with no winner?

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People can say all they want about "its just a game" and "numbers don't matter" but it does come down to integrity.
No. It comes down to people trying to control what other people do, for no good reason.

 

I cheat at solitaire. Does that bother you too?

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... but is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable?

I think one owner of this site called it "silly." They've nothing to prevent it. So, while it might not be "acceptable" it is accepted.

 

IMHO, the find is between the finder and the owner. It is cheesy to post unearned finds and I will continue to try to keep our caches clean.

 

Additionally, once you realize the "official" find count is FUBAR then the easier it is to accept questionable logging practices. For instance, can you tell how many caches I've found? Kind of, sort of. It's not accurate. I've not logged some caches I have found. I've found caches not listed on this site. I've logged a cache event or two--are they really caches?

 

The find count is no real indication of worth. Some folks may try to place worth on it, but I've encountered cachers with counts well into the four digits and, IMHO, absolutely suck lollipops as geocachers.

 

So, if it's a cache--a container with a signable logbook, maybe some trinkets to which pointed some coordinates--then it's a cache that can be claimed as a find. Where and how it is logged is pretty much up to the logger and owner of where it is logged.

 

You don't have to agree. You don't have to accept any one person's claim. You just have to realize you take any one find count with a grain of salt. Only you can determine how much validity you can put into the claim.

 

None of the above advocates throwing out all norms. I still believe a find is a signed logbook, etc. But I'm not going to lose sleep over someone logging unearned finds on someone else's cache. I will, however, think less of the cache owner who allows an unearned find to stand. But that's just me.

There was once a thread on who do you agree with most on the forums and I remember saying that I often find myself agreeing with CR. This post is an excellent example.

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People can say all they want about "its just a game" and "numbers don't matter" but it does come down to integrity.
No. It comes down to people trying to control what other people do, for no good reason.

 

I cheat at solitaire. Does that bother you too?

No one is trying to control you, but I certainly can have an opinion on the subject. Feel free to cheat at solitatire all you want. :) However, when you cheat (your word, not mine) in public you open yourself up for criticism.

Edited by 9Key

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I have seen in some cases that event caches are being logged as finds, by logging into the event several times, being determined by the amout of event caches completed. In one way this seems fair, but is this something that is advocated by Geocaching.com and is it acceptable? Time and effort are put into the hiding and finding of these caches and it seems as though credit should be given to, at least the finder.

 

I've never met the OP, but he's from my general area. Before this really gets out of hand, note that he's been around for quite a while, but only has 5 posts. Whatever happened to Tadpole status, did they get rid of that? Anyways, I can assure you he's only familiar with a small number (5 or less), of outstanding hiking caches placed for events. True, they weren't reviewed or listed on this website. But he also, I'm sure, has no idea of how controversial this topic is, or that some events have been logged over 60 times. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. :)

 

Oh, and the answer is, it's up to the owner of the event to decide whether or not to allow the multiple logs, and geocaching.com hasn't stopped it. So I guess you can say they allow it.

 

I guess this tadpole has heard enough, and by the sounds of it, all of you that have grown into the full grown FROG status have been in this pond before. I guess, to me, it all comes down to TheWhiteUrkle's last statement.

I'll just keep hiding event caches for the enjoyment of watching those that seek them out and reading their logs expressing their thanks.

This Tadpole is going back into the comfort of the unknowing, and hope I never grow legs.

Edited by Killerb

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........

This Tadpole is going back into hiding and hope I never grwo legs.

You asked us if we found it acceptable - we answered. Never feel bad about asking.......

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I cheat at solitaire. Does that bother you too?

 

I'm sure it doesn't bother anyone. But since you admit to doing it, i'll bet that some opinions have just been formed concerning your integrity. :)

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My thought, would you play Monopoly with someone who just moved his piece around the board to "earn" more money? It does come down to your reputation, and I'd rather not worry that someone would think I'm a cheater just to log an extra smiley!

 

The memories will be in the individual logs, not in the Stats bar so making sure they record the adventures is a viable option for many.

 

Isn't that what NOTES are for among other things??

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Would it be OK if some hider put 1000 film cannisters inside a 55 gallon drum and let people log them all?

If it was approved that way and they had fun finding them and the hider let them log it that way then no harm is done so sure it would be OK. Perhaps you can tell me why you think that example falls outside of my first response?

 

It isn't about good smilies vs bad smilies, every smiley is the same, a little yellow happy face that means nothing. They still mean nothing even if there is a thousand of them, they mean nothing even if there is twenty thousand of them, some people have a lot of trouble with that concept.

 

Do you think a smiley count means something?

I am just trying to see if you have a limit. Almost everyone has a limit, but maybe there are people that have no limits. People used to log caches in their pockets. We all know that crosses the limit and the TPTB said so. So there are limits whether you want to admit it or not.

 

As far as the numbers meaning something, they are most meaningful to the people that compete for the most finds. I'm not one of those people but I can understand their frustration when people log hundreds of bogus caches that are not listed on GC.com. It basically makes a joke out of their fun competition.

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Solitaire is a game people play by themselves to pass time. People who would make decisions about the integrity of others based on the way they play solitaire have issues, not the people playing solitaire. My friends and I go golfing for fun, we don't use a score card. If you saw one of us kicking the ball back onto the fairway and decided we lacked integrity, the issue is on your side of the fence, you would have the problem, not the ball kicker.

If a person uses a Found log to record a Note it is of no concern to anyone but the cache owner, the cache owner makes the call. If you stick your nose into that transaction then you have the problem, not the person using the Found log or the cache owner letting them log the cache.

When you sit down at a Monopoly board you are entering a structured competition, you are drawng a parallel where there isn't one, geocaching isn't a structured competition, the rules are simple, the cache owner assumes all responsiblity for the cache listing.

People can go ahead and compete, what they can't do is decide that everyone else has to join in their competition. This goes right back to the control issues that are so evident on this thread.

 

This is very simple stuff, the cache owner assumes ALL the responsibility for the listing. This listing service has never varied. People logging pocket caches were not breaking the rules, the cache owners who removed the caches from the approved location and carried them around were abrogating the listing agreement, perhaps you should refine your view of that issue by re-reading the associated threads, it had nothing to do with Jermey et al adopting a controlling attitude about cache finds, it was about cache owners who were breaking the agreement they made with this service.

 

There is no line, there never has been a line. The problem centers around those who wish to control others, they are frustrated that everyone isn't wearing the particular straightjacket they have donned.

This activity is fun, fun isn't a competitive sport but competing can be fun, that is a one way statement.

 

You have hit the nail on the head, the way it works today is great and it does make a joke out of people who think it is about numbers. Personally, I think that is good, someone needs to make a joke out of people who try turning a bit of fun into some type of platform for self aggrandizement.

 

Kudos to geocaching.com for recognizing that every cache owner has the right to decide how the game is played at their cache.

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Solitaire is a game people play by themselves to pass time. People who would make decisions about the integrity of others based on the way they play solitaire have issues, not the people playing solitaire. My friends and I go golfing for fun, we don't use a score card. If you saw one of us kicking the ball back onto the fairway and decided we lacked integrity, the issue is on your side of the fence, you would have the problem, not the ball kicker.

Getting a little farther off topic but i did want give my opinion on this.

 

A person can cheat at solitaire, golf, whatever they want and it's no skin off my back. But when i know that a person does this, then the one thought that comes to my mind is that they want to win,,,at any cost! If winning, or in the case of golf, getting a better score is so important to them that they cheat to do it, then i can't help but wonder what they might do to "win" at the more important things of life.

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Do you think a smiley count means something?
It doesn't mean much to me but it obviously means something to people that pump up their smiley total by logging caches not listed on GC.com. Tell me this is not true..... :laughing: What would you think if they stopped counting events in the find total?

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What would you think if they stopped counting events in the find total?

 

You are clearly asking the wrong person. :laughing:

 

I think this listing service could stop counting the Find total for Event caches and it would have no impact on the way I geocache; up, down, sideways, it wouldn't matter. I am not sure how many ways I can say this, a persons Find count means nothing, it is an inconsequential number that they made up, it isn't a score, it isn't a number that reflects any aspect of their character, it isn't a rating, it means zero, zilch, nothing.

 

Geocaching is not about demonstrating integrity, it isn't a competition, it is simply fun.

 

When we go golfing we don't use score cards, we don't count strokes, we just go out for fun. If the ball is in the rough kicking it back on to the fairway makes it easier to hit, no one is cheating because we aren't keeping score, we aren't competing, we are just having fun. If another golfer saw us kicking the ball onto the fairway and accused us of cheating he would be making a fool of himself, he would be intruding, he would be wrong, he would have issues and we would still just be having fun.

 

You can't cheat at having fun, you can't win at having fun, you can't keep score of having fun, you can't be better at having fun than others. I will qualify that last part, you can ruin your fun by worrying about the other guy and what he is doing, that is no fun. If other people logging Event caches multiple times really ruins the fun that someone is having then I think they were never having fun in the first place.

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When we go golfing we don't use score cards, we don't count strokes, we just go out for fun. If the ball is in the rough kicking it back on to the fairway makes it easier to hit, no one is cheating because we aren't keeping score, we aren't competing, we are just having fun. If another golfer saw us kicking the ball onto the fairway and accused us of cheating he would be making a fool of himself, he would be intruding, he would be wrong, he would have issues and we would still just be having fun.

 

I would argue that you are not playing "golf".

 

You might well be on the golf course, holding a golf club, hitting a golf ball, driving a golf cart and wearing golf clothes. However, the activity known as golf has rules and among those is the rule that says you can't kick the ball out of the rough onto the course and still honestly say you are playing a game of golf.

 

You artfully challenged me earlier in this thread to defend my statement that: "1 GC number should equal 1 and only 1 find". You called it lame. I called it my opinion and a position that I wish was adopted by HQ. That is all.

 

I don't want to "control" you. (your wording/characterization - not mine). Don't put words in my mouth. Your opinion is that such cache logs are ok - I say they are not. Both are only opinion. Things are vague and opinionated right now and my statement, if adopted, would make things perfectly clear and sensible to the majority. You disagree. Thats ok but don't say I am trying to "control" anybody else.

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Geocaching is not about demonstrating integrity, it isn't a competition, it is simply fun.
Everything you do reflects on you. If you say that you have "attended" 800 events when you have only "attended" 20 events, then you are not telling the truth. It's pretty cut and dry to me. I have lots of fun and always try to be truthful! :laughing:

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Geocaching is not about demonstrating integrity, it isn't a competition, it is simply fun.

 

I agree with that but isn't the is the fun part, the part about finding caches?

 

Forgive me for my ignorance, but is sitting in front of a PC, selecting "Attended" from a drop down and typing "found it" over and over again REALLY fun? Do people actually sit in front of their PCs with big smiles on their faces while doing this, then go into work the next day and tell their co-workers about the blast they had typing logs?

 

Have I been missing out on all that fun? For me the fun was always in finding caches and attending events. Typing logs is more of an obligation.

 

Do you think a smiley count means something?

 

It must mean something or people wouldn't do it. For starters there are material rewards. Sometimes geocoins and other gifts are given out to and parties thrown for people who reach a certain number of finds. People who reach certain levels are celebrated by the community.

 

There is a perceived status and a level of "celebrity" that the smiley count can bring. I've seen certain high number cachers arrive at events treated like conquering heroes, with people jockeying to talk with them and even have photos taken with them.

Edited by briansnat

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I am not sure how many ways I can say this, a persons Find count means nothing, it is an inconsequential number that they made up, it isn't a score, it isn't a number that reflects any aspect of their character, it isn't a rating, it means zero, zilch, nothing.

I'm curious how I made up the number of caches I've found? "Made up" implies an imaginary number that has no basis in reality.

 

And it does mean something, it means I've found that many geocaches listed on GC.com.

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Find count means nothing, it is an inconsequential number that they made up, it isn't a score, it isn't a number that reflects any aspect of their character, it isn't a rating, it means zero, zilch, nothing.

Unfortunately that isn't true. The "find count" does mean something. It is the count of the number of "found it" logs plus the number of "attended" logs you have entered on GC.com.

 

I think we get into trouble when we claim that people are inflating their find count or that people are cheating. The argument instead is what is the purpose of entering a "found it" log or an "attended" log.

 

One side believes that the "found it" should be used to report when you have found the cache you are logging found it on. Not that you found where the cache used to be. Not that you re-found it to trade a travel bug or do maintenance. Not that you completed some bonus so the cache owner lets you log another "found it". A "found it" log is for when you find the cache, and most caches you can find only one time. This side also believe that an "attended" log is for reporting that you attended the event. Not that you meant to attend. Not that you found a cache while you were attending the event that you couldn't log a find on because it isn't listed on GC.com. If you haven't found the cache or attended the event there are plenty of other ways to keep track of your activity. You can log a 'Note' and put the relevant information in the Note or you can write in your "Attended" log that you found 15 out of 15 of the temporary caches that were hidden at the event.

 

The other side believes that since Jeremy has repeated many times that he is not interested in setting up the website to enforce what a find is, this means that a cache owner can define what ever he want to be the criteria for logging a 'found it' or an 'attended' log. While this doesn't seem to be Jeremy's intent, it is for the most part the de facto result. A cache owner who says its OK to log a find because you were in the general area of the cache will get people who accept that offer. Especially when the cacher "did a favor" by replacing a missing cache, that person may feel entitled to log a find for doing a good deed. An event owner may offer the opportunity to log multiple 'Attended' logs to encourage participation of finding temporary event caches. One thing a cache owner can't do is force anyone to claim the additional finds. If you are in the first group, you can happily enter only the logs you feel you are entitled to enter.

 

So why do people in the second group claim the additional finds? Because they feel they are entitled to them. Its a silly game whose "score" is based on the number of 'Found It' and 'Attended' logs you write. The points don't really win you anything, besides some small congratulatory comments and perhaps a reward from friends a few weeks sooner than you might have gotten it otherwise. There is a certain pleasure people get in watching their point count go up, especially if it is for doing something that the cache owner agrees is a good enough reason to log that extra 'Found it' or 'Attended'. There is no widespread "lying" about finding caches. Certainly the people who take every opportunity to claim the extra points know that the people in the first group can easily tell that when they have log 'Attended' multiple times for the same event. People write openly that they didn't find the cache but are logging a find because the cache owner said they could. I'm sure they don't feel they are cheating and can't understand why others question their integrity. The cache owner offered a point and they chose to accept it. A point clearly has some value to these people but my guess is that is mostly symbolic. This is probably similar to the motivation to "cheat" at solitaire or to take mulligans in a friendly golf game. The outcome doesn't matter. There is no money involved (the material reward, if any, may be achieved early but that really doesn't matter). But for a fleeting moment you can claim a higher score.

 

Here's what I suggest. People in the first group can continue to argue the reasons the 'Found it' log should only be used whey you find a cache and the 'Attended' log should only be used when you attended an event. But stop calling people in the second group cheaters or ethically challenged. At worst they are mistaken about the purpose of certain log types and just need to be educated. People in the second group, accept that there is a group out there that firmly believe that you are not using the logs as intended. Just because Jeremy has decided to leave it up to cache owners to determine what a find is doesn't mean that cache owners should have free reign. On several occasions Jeremy has indicated that he thinks many of these practices are silly. If you don't mind being called mistaken or silly, then by all means continue to log whatever you're comfortable logging.

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And it does mean something, it means I've found that many geocaches listed on GC.com.

 

The operative part of this statment is I've.

You are making the claim, it is your Find count. When you claim your finds you apply a set of rules that you choose. The number you claim as a Find count is a result of your choices.

Would you log a cache that offered multiple targets multiple times if the owner said that it was OK?

Would you log an Event cache that used a recycled event page?

Would you log a moving cache the second time you found it?

Don't bother answering becuase it is rhetorical and I really don't care what rules you select when you make your claims. No matter how you present it or slice it or dice it, it is you, you choose the whole framework, you are only limited by cache owners. Everyones Find count is a claim that is made up, it is an interpretation of all the various factors, a result of all your personal choices and the decisions made by the cache owners whose caches you have found.

 

Recently a thread discussed a situation that developed wherein a cache owner deleted all the logs of certain cachers becuase he didn't like them. If you had a cache owner delete all your log on his caches would you consider your find count to be accurate? Would you try and remedy your find count by doing something to increase your claimed Finds to the previous level?

 

Your find count is as meaningless as anyone elses.

Edited by wavector

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I wonder....when mountain climbing, if I just SEE the mountain, can I brag about climbing it? If I'm golfing, can I just CLAIM a hole in one because I hit a ball? When they send someone into outer space, can they claim to have landed on the moon (even if they only orbited it?)?

 

Why even have a count if it doesn't matter? OBVIOUSLY it matters! Why do you sit down and log the finds at all if it doesn't mater? Why even bother to do the work part if that's no fun since it doesn't matter?

 

People with this attitude really surprise me! I have a friend who will be giving me a 1000 find coin as a reward for the milestone (if I ever make it)...do you suppose they'd still give it to me if I made up my finds or logged multiple finds on an event or simply "padded my count"?

I wonder why there's that leader board for finds and TB movers since it really doesn't matter. I once bent over backwards to try to meet a certain "leader lady" who was leading the finds count...now I could care less...even GAVE away her coin I bought. She's more a joke to me than a hero!

 

You who would say it's all about the numbers if we harp about the "made up finds" (does that bother you if I call them made up...it shouldn't if numbers don't matter) are the ones who are "all about the numbers". You need to see the numbers rise even if you have to cheat to get them.

 

Play the game your way, but don't cry to me when you are the butt of jokes at events and on the trails. I wonder...some of those that are saying the padding isn't an issue are also the ones crying if someone doesn't sign the log. If the numbers don't matter, why do you care if I sign the log or not?

 

oh...and those cheating themselves at solitaire...sad, truly sad! I agree, those that do these things would likely do ANYTHING to get what they desire. I would like to think that I accomplished something NOT think I cheated to get my way!

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When we go golfing we don't use score cards, we don't count strokes, we just go out for fun. If the ball is in the rough kicking it back on to the fairway makes it easier to hit, no one is cheating because we aren't keeping score, we aren't competing, we are just having fun. If another golfer saw us kicking the ball onto the fairway and accused us of cheating he would be making a fool of himself, he would be intruding, he would be wrong, he would have issues and we would still just be having fun.

 

Try that in a league. We've actually thrown people out of our league for doing just as you say!

 

No, it shouldn't matter to someone else who isn't playing in your group (unless it's a league), but try to go in and brag up a good score with those who watched you cheat...you'll look pretty silly!

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I'm almost reluctant to suggest this since i don't think non GC.com listed caches should be logged as finds on the site in the first place. But for those of you who just gotta have that smilie, why not do it in a way that makes better sense.

 

I'd certainly find a better way if i wanted to log a find on every "cache" that i found. Maybe by submitting a cache page then archiving so that i would have a place to enter find logs. Make it traditional since temporary caches are almost all that type, then name it something like, "All other caches i found". Put it in your favorites to make it easy to get to and enter all the find logs you want right there. This definitely has benefits as it makes it much easier to find past logs, and more importantly, would keep the type of cache found logs in the proper category in your stats. Your events attended count would then be correct and your traditional find count (gc.com appropved or not) would be right (for you) too.

 

Just an idea,,,,

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For the cachers getting their undies in a twist over other people's stats. Here is a suggestion. While you are using your time to check how many caches another cacher has, you could clearly see that the events are another category on the cache list. Subtract the number of events from the total - viola, the "true" number. Although the caches they attended would not be counted, oh well. I have logged temp finds in the past, not recently. It was something as a newbie that I was told was ok (before I read all the hooha here). I figured there was no prize to win or that I was not really competing against anything but my sore back, I logged them. In the scheme of things, do I REALLY care if some guy from MI logs 46 pieces of plastic he found in the woods on a rainy day? Nope... just care about how many I find. Save yourself the ulcers and quit worrying about it! :laughing:

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I wonder....when mountain climbing, if I just SEE the mountain, can I brag about climbing it? If I'm golfing, can I just CLAIM a hole in one because I hit a ball? When they send someone into outer space, can they claim to have landed on the moon (even if they only orbited it?)?

 

Why even have a count if it doesn't matter? OBVIOUSLY it matters! Why do you sit down and log the finds at all if it doesn't mater? Why even bother to do the work part if that's no fun since it doesn't matter?

 

People with this attitude really surprise me! I have a friend who will be giving me a 1000 find coin as a reward for the milestone (if I ever make it)...do you suppose they'd still give it to me if I made up my finds or logged multiple finds on an event or simply "padded my count"?

I wonder why there's that leader board for finds and TB movers since it really doesn't matter. I once bent over backwards to try to meet a certain "leader lady" who was leading the finds count...now I could care less...even GAVE away her coin I bought. She's more a joke to me than a hero!

 

You who would say it's all about the numbers if we harp about the "made up finds" (does that bother you if I call them made up...it shouldn't if numbers don't matter) are the ones who are "all about the numbers". You need to see the numbers rise even if you have to cheat to get them.

 

Play the game your way, but don't cry to me when you are the butt of jokes at events and on the trails. I wonder...some of those that are saying the padding isn't an issue are also the ones crying if someone doesn't sign the log. If the numbers don't matter, why do you care if I sign the log or not?

 

oh...and those cheating themselves at solitaire...sad, truly sad! I agree, those that do these things would likely do ANYTHING to get what they desire. I would like to think that I accomplished something NOT think I cheated to get my way!

 

This topic starts with a "ripple" and leads to a "tidal wave" of debate.

 

Thankfully, many of the find management programs identify how many "unique finds" a cacher has. Nobody has come up with a rock solid reason why they should log caches (as attended events) that:

  1. Were never approved on GC.com
  2. Don't have to meet the guidelines to qualify as a "geocache."
  3. Are only available for one or two days.

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