To trespass or not to....that is the question!

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

 

Disobeying a bad law when obeying would create a greater evil is obviously the right thing to do.

 

 

You finally understand what I've been saying. No one here is calling for anarchy, no one is saying break any law you don't like, we're simply distinguishing between legally and morally right.

Been a pleasure Dave.

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

 

Disobeying a bad law when obeying would create a greater evil is obviously the right thing to do.

 

 

You finally understand what I've been saying. No one here is calling for anarchy, no one is saying break any law you don't like, we're simply distinguishing between legally and morally right.

Been a pleasure Dave.

 

Than are we all morally and legally wrong for going into the park after dark for the 4th of July? I mean wrong is wrong. Or do we get to bend the law for this and pretend it is OK for one but not the other? And does it reflect on all American's being bad? Hummm...."Arrest all American's who went into the park after dark for the 4th of July" and "Arrest all Geo Cacher's who go into the park after dark". I mean it is all bad!

 

Linda - The Psychic Cacher

[+sbell111]

Disobeying a bad law when obeying would create a greater evil is obviously the right thing to do.

You finally understand what I've been saying. No one here is calling for anarchy, no one is saying break any law you don't like, we're simply distinguishing between legally and morally right.

Been a pleasure Dave.

Than are we all morally and legally wrong for going into the park after dark for the 4th of July? I mean wrong is wrong. Or do we get to bend the law for this and pretend it is OK for one but not the other? And does it reflect on all American's being bad? Hummm...."Arrest all American's who went into the park after dark for the 4th of July" and "Arrest all Geo Cacher's who go into the park after dark". I mean it is all bad!

 

Linda - The Psychic Cacher

They will probably cancel all future 4th of Julys (Julies?).

 

Those people are ruining 4th of July for all of us!!!

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

I don't know, I've never gone to a park on the 4th of July. The park in Greencastle is directly across tthe quarry pond from our batch plant#2, so when I want to watch the cities fireworks I go to plant #2 and watch it with one of the owners. No crowds, out of range of any mishaps and a much better view than trying to look up through the trees. To be honest though I seldom do even that, it's more fun to stay home and have our own show.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I just had breakfast with one of the few truly great state troopers in our area. Asked about the entrance of parks after hours: Parks with a sign saying hours of operation, they would drive through and check. If someone were seen simply talking or other legal activities, they would be warned and asked to leave. Repeated offenses would likely be trouble.

 

Parks with a gate or other means of closing the entrance, you get caught in any that you need to go around, under or over a gate and they will arrest you regardless.

 

When told this might happen at most of these parks, she replied that all one would need to do is simply make the LEOs aware of the possible activities and all would LIKELY be fine...in the ungated parks (in other words...work through the proper channels)! Still better not enter a gated park after hours for any reason (no, not even if little Timmy wandered over there...call the LEOs and advise from there).

 

So in my area, I will ask the local LEOs for use of the parks after hours (ungated city or county parks). This will be a good way to "keep the peace" around here and gives us a little of our freedom back as well! I would guess that others could check into this in their areas as if interested...

 

Linda, if you're going to a park to watch fireworks, it's a good bet that show is being put on (or at least authorized) by the people owning the property, no law being broke. Now, if you're just going into the park to shoot off fireworks and what not, that's a whole different story.

 

EDIT TO ADD: This does not include PRIVATELY owned parks...you enter after hours at Hidden Lake Gardens or Hayes State Parks (these are in my area and I own the caches hidden in both) and you can expect trouble if caught and logs deleted if hinting of after hours activity, NO WARNING (I THINK that's stated on most of those caches though...I could be wrong. If not, it will be soon).

Edited July 8, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[+Renegade Knight]

....Disobeying a bad law when obeying would create a greater evil is obviously the right thing to do.

 

On topic, "trespassing for a FTF", the end simply does not justify the means, as it RARELY does in circumstances other than the "straw man" cases discussed so far....

 

Bringing up the straw man is nothing more than a cheap way to dismiss someones point rather than actually address it.

 

That said. It's good to see that you now at least admit that the larger point does exist and is valid.

 

As for tresspassing, that's another thing than the actual topic. The actual topic was enterting a park after it's closed. Changing the question to harsher words is another common tactic to elicit the desired answer. Would I tresspass? No. Would I risk 'dusk' coming up while I'm in the park. Yes. Would I do something that someone else may consider trespassing? Based on some of the responces Yes, but then again based on some of those responces I tresspass daily going about my own life and so do they. But that's another debate.

[+Renegade Knight]

...A Double Godwin's Law on the same page. And the latest one is even a better example of Godwin's Law where one mentions Nazis but then goes on to say that invoking the Nazis makes it a valid argument. A testbook example.

Thanks for playing.

 

Bzzzt.

 

You get the penalty box for invoking Godwins law inappropriately. Shame on you.

 

It's all in the article.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

[+Renegade Knight]

The more rights everone has the less freedom we all have.

 

no, no, no. let me 'splain this to you.

 

the more RIGHTS everyone has, the more FREEDOM everyone has. that's what freedom is about. freedom of speech, freedom of movement, right to bear arms, freedom to congregate. these are all RIGHTS. if people have fewer RIGHTRS, they have less FREEDOM. ...

 

It doesn't work that way.

A right creates an obligation on us all in one way or another. The right to free speech means we the people through our government have to provide a venue in some way or there is no free speech. The right to a trial by jury, imposes on us all Jury duty. Right down to some people thinking they have a right to the highest possible property value and so I can't have a Pit Bull, Junk Car, ugly lawn etc.

 

There is a saying. "your freedom ends where my nose begins." Rights don't end there. If my neighbor does have a right to a high property value then I lose some of my freedom in how I can enjoy my own property, to maintain his right.

 

Some things need to be rights that they may never be infringed. Most things should be simple freedoms.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Trespassing to find a cache is wrong, legally and morally.....

 

Agreed.

 

But since you like Straw Man so much I had to look it up. Turns out the OP's argument was a straw man argument. The real questions was if we would enter a park after it's posted hours for an FTF. It was tweaked to call that trespassing making it a misrepresentation of the situation and that qualifies as a straw man.

 

If you are going to jump on the latest forum bandwagon and call something a straw man, then it dang well better be one.

 

Lastly: Since we agreed on the answer to the question of Trespassing, and we actually agree on the simple fact that some laws can be unjust and should be ignored...what's the debate?

[+Renegade Knight]

...Parks with a gate or other means of closing the entrance, you get caught in any that you need to go around, under or over a gate and they will arrest you regardless....

 

I frequent a park where the closed gate merely means. "No Vehcile access" the sign makes it seem like you could be arrested for being there. The intent was vehciles. The signs were unclear. I checked on reality.

 

Another park I frequent had a dedication sign cast in Bronze. Among other things that sighn said "Dedicated to the free use by the public forever". I rather liked it. One day the sign had been pried out and a Fee Gate set up. Hmmm....

 

Your Trooper sounds like they have a handle on reality. Most I've met do as well. They live in the same world we do and get stuck dealing with all the same stupid things. Things like what I pointed out above. The sign says "No Trespassing, I know I'm good on foot, I asked. Rookie Trooper though... We all muddle through.

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

Woman's point of view Roddy is you have "way too much time on your hands".

 

Betting on right or wrong isn't the way to go. I believe your friend "Leo or Leona" would also tell you that.

 

Also some more points: I would like to make is why are you making such a big deal on this online? How is this more helpful with promoting good geo caching? I was always taught the old fashion way. If you have a problem with someone, go and talk reasonably with them. To me it seems more like airing dirty laundry.

 

And now for a sure bet, I bet that all the people who have posted on this thread are truly wonderful good heart great geo cachers! And how is this making us stronger?

 

Linda - The Psychic Cacher

[+Rockin Roddy]

Linda...where would you like I discuss this? I could always call you and ask you to respect park hours...would that matter to you? (besides, that stance was perfectly clear from the start) You act as if this whole discussion revolves around you...sorry to burst your bubble but this is a CACHING problem. Maybe I should just call and ask ALL cachers what they would or wouldn't do?

 

I too was raised the old fashioned way, RESPECT the LAW was one of the first things I was taught (right up there with respect your elders, other people's property and such). The bible also taught me to respect myself and be right with God. I doubt most cachers will say that a cache is any reason to break a law...that's a SURE BET! You seem miffed about all this...relax! If it upsets you, maybe you should re-evaluate your position? If you can respect yourself and feel right with God at the end of the day, it's all good!

 

Well RK...there is always the chance that someone will not know or understand the circumstances, but that's the risk one takes when going after a cache after hours (which, BTW, I still see as trespassing...not understanding the difference yet)! At least at this point, I know where the LEO stands on this and what I can do to BETTER caching in our area (YES...BETTER Linda, working to have good relations with TPTB actually IS good for our sport). The LIKELY part was put in because my LEO friend did say that there could be situations where not everyone would be on the same page!

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

 

Well RK...there is always the chance that someone will not know or understand the circumstances, but that's the risk one takes when going after a cache after hours (which, BTW, I still see as trespassing...not understanding the difference yet)!

 

It's only tresspassing if the landowner says it is. In other words, if the owners of a particular park don't mind, but they put the sign up just to make the insurance company happy, then it's not tresspassing.

And no, I'm not refering to any particular park, I just know that signs don't always mean what they say. I was forced to put up some no tresspassing signs this spring because someone decided to ride an atv through my woods. The signs are there only for that individual, who ever it is, not to stop geocachers looking for the cache hidden there. I placed them where he crossed my fence, positioned so cachers won't see them.

[+Rockin Roddy]

That makes sense...but how do you know if the sign means what it says or was just put up for insurance reasons?

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

That makes sense...but how do you know if the sign means what it says or was just put up for insurance reasons?

 

If it's a local park you should already know, if you are travelling I advise taking it as written unless you can find the right person to ask.

I personally don't visit parks very often, I have my own private paradise here.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Exactly Cpt.! That's what my point was when this was said about the signs in the first place. If I'm from out of town, I wouldn't know what the locals feel about trespassing, and I surely wouldn't know if the sign meant what it said! Now, this wouldn't apply to the scenario I painted in the OP as that's likely a local if it's a FTF race...but it has bearing on caching after park hours.

[+Renegade Knight]

That makes sense...but how do you know if the sign means what it says or was just put up for insurance reasons?

 

By having lunch with the local Leo's. Tribal Knowledge is passed on to new generations that way.

 

That lunch did more for caching than the original question and the ensuing (and very interesting) debate.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I just saw where another area has lost the use of their parks! OUCH! Oh, the problems misconceptions can cause!

 

Might take more than a lunch or two to restore use there!!

[+Wadcutter]

It's all in the article.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

Oh please! Let's use something more credible than wikipedia, where any moron with a computer can make an entry to anything.

[+Knight2000]

It's only tresspassing if the landowner says it is. In other words, if the owners of a particular park don't mind, but they put the sign up just to make the insurance company happy, then it's not tresspassing.

If you go over the speed limit is only wrong if you get a ticket?

 

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

It's only tresspassing if the landowner says it is. In other words, if the owners of a particular park don't mind, but they put the sign up just to make the insurance company happy, then it's not tresspassing.

If you go over the speed limit is only wrong if you get a ticket?

 

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

 

What are you going on about now? Are saying saying that you are trespassing when you coime onto my property even if I say you are not? Because tyhat's what you just claimed.

To state your speeding analogy so it fits my statement properly, you should have said "If you drive 65 and the government says that the speed limit is 65 then you are not speeding."

If there is a yellow sign there though that says "speed Limit 45" and you are still driving 65 are you speeding?

NO. Yellow signs are advisory signs, placed to warn truck drivers that speed in excess of 45 may not be safe for top heavy trucks, the real speed limits are posted on white signs.

Wrong IS wrong, but entering a park after hours is not always wrong.

 

In my job I "break" laws all the time, I drive the wrong way on one way streets, I ignore stop signs, make u-turns on the freeway, even drove up the exit ramp and down the interstate, on the shoulder, for nearly a mile once, all in the performance of my job. These actions have all, at various times, been observed by city, county and state patrol officers and not one has stopped me for it, and often they help me do it.

Am I wrong for doing what has to be done to do my job? The cops don't think so, therefore it isn't wrong, even though the traffic manuel says it is.

[+Knight2000]

If a sign is up and you dont heed it then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Unless of course you have permission from the owner.

 

Entering a park after hours is most certainly not always wrong. But entering after hours when the park is closed per signs is.

 

This thread isn't going to change anything. People will do what they want and continue to do so. Everyone has an excuse for everything.

[+Renegade Knight]

It's all in the article.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

Oh please! Let's use something more credible than wikipedia, where any moron with a computer can make an entry to anything.

Please cite your more authoritative source. Since Wikepedia has multiple morons with computers agreeing on that definition vs. just you, you are going to have to show me something real.

[+Renegade Knight]

I just saw where another area has lost the use of their parks! OUCH! Oh, the problems misconceptions can cause!

 

Might take more than a lunch or two to restore use there!!

 

lunches are preventative. When the misconception comes up, if they know you are a cacher they will come to you and ask. "Do those geocachers really bury their caches?"

 

When you have a working relationship, they will come to you before caching gets banned.

 

Once banned it's a lot harder to change policy.

[+TrailGators]

It's only tresspassing if the landowner says it is. In other words, if the owners of a particular park don't mind, but they put the sign up just to make the insurance company happy, then it's not tresspassing.

If you go over the speed limit is only wrong if you get a ticket?

 

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

Entropy...

[+Rockin Roddy]

It's only tresspassing if the landowner says it is. In other words, if the owners of a particular park don't mind, but they put the sign up just to make the insurance company happy, then it's not tresspassing.

If you go over the speed limit is only wrong if you get a ticket?

 

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

 

What are you going on about now? Are saying saying that you are trespassing when you coime onto my property even if I say you are not? Because tyhat's what you just claimed.

To state your speeding analogy so it fits my statement properly, you should have said "If you drive 65 and the government says that the speed limit is 65 then you are not speeding."

If there is a yellow sign there though that says "speed Limit 45" and you are still driving 65 are you speeding?

NO. Yellow signs are advisory signs, placed to warn truck drivers that speed in excess of 45 may not be safe for top heavy trucks, the real speed limits are posted on white signs.

Wrong IS wrong, but entering a park after hours is not always wrong.

 

In my job I "break" laws all the time, I drive the wrong way on one way streets, I ignore stop signs, make u-turns on the freeway, even drove up the exit ramp and down the interstate, on the shoulder, for nearly a mile once, all in the performance of my job. These actions have all, at various times, been observed by city, county and state patrol officers and not one has stopped me for it, and often they help me do it.

Am I wrong for doing what has to be done to do my job? The cops don't think so, therefore it isn't wrong, even though the traffic manuel says it is.

 

Heaven forbid you get into an accident while performing these job duties, someone may end up suing you and that could be trouble even if you do win in the end!

 

What's your job Cpt??

[+Rockin Roddy]

I agree RK, waiting until you lose your use of the parks isn't helping. One must proactively work to build relations with their PTB! I'm all for this and have been very busy doing so! We were interviewed and a story was printed on the front page of our Lifestyles section (C-section)...a full page feature about caching that really got people's attention! Already, we've seen a few newbs join up! Aside from showing my balding head, a great feature, I get stopped often at the golf course and asked about caching now!

 

That's also partially why my LEO friend was up to speed about caching when I talked with her yesterday...the story told her nearly all she needed to know about how we "operate"! With that story and some more info, I plan to address the LEOs today (supposed to meet my friend at the state post for starters and then meeting with my buddy over to the city HQ)...we'll be working to get permission for use of our parks (not private ones of course) after hours. Who says this post isn't doing good?

 

I've also been VERY active working with our state parks! We are quite the friends now, and that makes it much easier to approach them and work out any problems which may come about! They've asked I host another event next year and already set a date (which is even better than this year's date was), PLUS, they want me to host a caching 101 type event to introduce newbs to caching (at another park nearby which I have all the hides)...working with a local organization for that one, the org is headed by the main cheese at the S.P.!

 

Any time someone works with their local PTB, the better our sport is understood, making it easier to work out problems and avoid some problems as well! I'm all for getting out there and having a chat with the higher ups! It really helps!

[+Alan2]

Parks here in NYC have no closure signs that I recall. The government here has no regulations regarding caching or no dogs allowed for that matter. Pretty Liberal! Well, NYC is kind of a 24 hour town. Then again you probably wouldn't want to enter some of these city parks at night - at least not alone. Not unless you'd want to secure that FTF or gay or just plain nuts!

[+Wadcutter]

Please cite your more authoritative source. Since Wikepedia has multiple morons with computers agreeing on that definition vs. just you, you are going to have to show me something real.

Godwin's Law was around long before there was a wikipedia. Please don't take everything on wikipedia as gospil. It's full of inaccuracies and is no more reliable than a chat room.

Godwin's Law is envoking anything Nazi into an argument. Claiming violating a trespass law is akin to Nazi is a classic Godwinism, or a complete lack of understanding of the Nazi Germany. Hardly the same.

So I'm done. Has nothing to do with the thread. Godwin wins.

Edited July 9, 2007 by Wadcutter

[+Renegade Knight]

Please cite your more authoritative source. Since Wikepedia has multiple morons with computers agreeing on that definition vs. just you, you are going to have to show me something real.

Godwin's Law was around long before there was a wikipedia. Please don't take everything on wikipedia as gospil. It's full of inaccuracies and is no more reliable than a chat room.

Godwin's Law is envoking anything Nazi into an argument. Claiming violating a trespass law is akin to Nazi is a classic Godwinism, or a complete lack of understanding of the Nazi Germany. Hardly the same.

So I'm done. Has nothing to do with the thread. Godwin wins.

 

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

 

The discussion morphed into a discussion of when laws and what's moral conflict. WWII German Officers were faced with exactly that situation. Godwins law does not apply to a valid discussion. That's also part of Godwins law.

 

As for Wikepedia. It excells at cultural references. More so than most any other source. It doesn't matter than it's newer than the law. Most words pre-date the dictionaries that container thier defintions. It doesn't make them less useful.

[+Renegade Knight]

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

 

All laws have a spirit and intent. The thing which the law was created to solve. Everthing outside that spirit and intent was not intended to be covered by the law. But when it hits the real world unintended consequences normally happen.

 

The law against murder (simple enough) was never intended to prevent you from killing the SOB who's doing his bloody best to kill you. That means you need to allow for self defence.

 

A Dusk to Dawn rule is probably intended to keep out the riff raff. It's not so easy to pass a clarification (like self defence) to authorize non riff raff to use the park while not allowing the riff fraff.

 

There is a law against breaking the copy protection on DVD's. Anyone who rents DVD's knows how fragile they are. If you own a DVD and like watching it you are better off breaking the copy protection so you can watch a copy and keep the orginal safe. The intent is that I don't give you a copy of my DVD. Thus the law interferes in fair use but not really the intent.

 

A lot of customs in English Common law are not built into the law. They are allowed by practice. "That's the way it's alwasy been" is how it works. New laws can break the old customs. The customes have thousands of years of tradtion that have never been made into laws. That's a problem. The custom is moral and just, the law...has unintended consquences that custom would just ignore until it's fixed.

 

Fair use itself is another concept. The practice was long established. Make a copy for personal use keep the orginal safe. Nobody minded, nobody cared, everbody understoon the concept. Then a law was passed that got in the way of fair use. Fair use didn't go away. It just never had the protection of law. Now It's against the law to do what I've been doing since I was a kid. Am I going to stop? No. I like my MP3 player and I'm not going to write each company that ever made a CD to get express written permission to rip the CD to my MP3 player...

 

Things like that are why good citizens break laws.

[Clan Riffster]

All laws have a spirit and intent. The thing which the law was created to solve. Everything outside that spirit and intent was not intended to be covered by the law. But when it hits the real world unintended consequences normally happen.

Well said.

 

Florida created a law that was intended to inhibit folks impersonating law enforcement officers. It basically disallows any blue lights on civilian vehicles, and disallows any red lights other than those installed by the factory. Then a company started making little LED lights that go into your windshield washer jets. Some of these were red, others were blue. There is no way a citizen could possibly mistake a tricked out 95 Honda Civic with tiny blue lights on its hood as a cop car, yet folks still get cited for it. Enforcing this law, in such a manner, runs contrary to the intent of the law.

 

Seminole County ordinance prohibits folks from possessing alcohol in its parks. The intent of the law was to reduce the number of problems caused by drunks in the parks, to include littering, vandalism and camp fires out of control. I patrol these parks every night I work, and the vast majority of the violators I encounter are honest, upstanding citizens. They've got trash bags with them to remove their beer cans, (and usually everybody else's beer cans), their camp sites are in order, and their fire is built with safety in mind. In other words, they are not causing a problem. I could arrest everyone I encounter sipping a beer in our parks, but that would also run contrary to the intent of the law.

[Phatfish16]

If I knew that the park was unavailable after hours, I most likely wouldn't try for the find after dark when i'm not allowed.

 

However, I don't often review the attributes and have to admit I don't always take a look at the description or hints...just the coordinates. (Especially if I know I'm going to be driving somewhere at the last minute and just want to try to get a cache or 2 during my travels.) If I only took the coords and wasn't aware from signs or on-site postings that the cache/park was unavailable 24 hours, I would try for the cache.

 

But if I got in trouble by the police, I would take personal responsibility for being there when I shouldn't have been. I am responsible for my own actions and NOBODY else!!! I would in no way, no how, whatsoever blame my being where I don't belong on a cacher who hid a cache in such a location. It is my responsibility to know where I am going, when I am going somewhere.

 

To add my 2 cents about the FTF...it's ultimately up to the cache owner to determine if it's a valid find. It's their cache. But take into account that the person who found it, did indeed find it and sign the log. Does it really matter when or how they found it. Has anyone ever found a final stage of a multi-cache and signed in without finding the earlier stages? (I personally have not though.) But I could see that it would still count. If this cache's location remained the same as when originally posted/originally found, I think the FTF credit should remain.

 

I keep track of my own FTFs, but does anyone else keep track of mine? I doubt it. That's a personally stat. I'm sure the inidivudal who claims to have FTF will still count it for their personal stats regardless whether the find log was cancelled by the cache owner.

[+dew cache]

Well what ever you want to do is up to you I am not going to say you are wrong but myself if the park is closed from dusk to dawn I am not going to go in it - end of discussion. I will not intentionally break a law I don't even like to speed even though I want to get from point a to point b as fast as I can I only get upset at people that are not driving at or near the speed limit.

Geocaching has guidelines to protect the game for everyone. If enough people disreguard the law to geocache there very well could be repercussions against anyone using the park for geocaching. Just my take no it me I won't do it. If you want to that is fine until you stop the game for other people by having the park say no to any geocaching.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

 

So as to make it "right" in their eyes of course! How else do you suppose some can look themselves in the mirror? One can always rationalize and twist the rules, laws or guidelines to fit their agenda, they just hope that the PTB will "see it their way", and if not, claim ignorance!

 

INTEGRITY...isn't that a great word??

[+Rockin Roddy]

If a sign is up and you dont heed it then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Unless of course you have permission from the owner.

 

Entering a park after hours is most certainly not always wrong. But entering after hours when the park is closed per signs is.

 

This thread isn't going to change anything. People will do what they want and continue to do so. Everyone has an excuse for everything.

 

We all know what excuses are like now don't we! Good point though Knight!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Phat, that's your responsibility as a cacher! Read the description, look at the attributes and then go after the cache!

 

When you go swimming, do you just blindly enter the ocean? I'd hope not as you MAY encounter rip tides or worse (sharks come to mind)...reading the signs and heeding the flags would be the wise first step! If you plan to go golfing, do you just head out with your clubs or do you watch the weather and plan accordingly? Going on a mountain hike...do you just throw on your shoes and head out or do you read all the signs at the trailhead and learn of the hazards that MAY be present?

 

Reading the cache description, checking out the attributes and maybe even reading a few of the logs is a good idea, saves you from making a trip out after a missing cache, helps you to know if there are issues with the cache and lets you know what restrictions there might be!

[Clan Riffster]

INTEGRITY...isn't that a great word??

Yup. So is "peanut butter". Those 4 syllables just kinda roll off the tounge......"Peanut Butter"..... Try it. It's fun. Of course it has very little to do with this thread. Kinda like "integrity".... or should I shout it? "INTEGRITY". Pretending that someone entering a closed park is immoral is just sick. That's the kind of twisted mentality that brought us the Spanish Inquisition. While trespassing may be bad, there are few things that hurt this game more than pompous, self righteous blow hards condemning folks who have harmed no one, just to satisfy their own ever dwindling egos.

 

Know anyone like that?

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

It's only tresspassing if the landowner says it is. In other words, if the owners of a particular park don't mind, but they put the sign up just to make the insurance company happy, then it's not tresspassing.

If you go over the speed limit is only wrong if you get a ticket?

 

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

 

What are you going on about now? Are saying saying that you are trespassing when you coime onto my property even if I say you are not? Because tyhat's what you just claimed.

To state your speeding analogy so it fits my statement properly, you should have said "If you drive 65 and the government says that the speed limit is 65 then you are not speeding."

If there is a yellow sign there though that says "speed Limit 45" and you are still driving 65 are you speeding?

NO. Yellow signs are advisory signs, placed to warn truck drivers that speed in excess of 45 may not be safe for top heavy trucks, the real speed limits are posted on white signs.

Wrong IS wrong, but entering a park after hours is not always wrong.

 

In my job I "break" laws all the time, I drive the wrong way on one way streets, I ignore stop signs, make u-turns on the freeway, even drove up the exit ramp and down the interstate, on the shoulder, for nearly a mile once, all in the performance of my job. These actions have all, at various times, been observed by city, county and state patrol officers and not one has stopped me for it, and often they help me do it.

Am I wrong for doing what has to be done to do my job? The cops don't think so, therefore it isn't wrong, even though the traffic manuel says it is.

 

Heaven forbid you get into an accident while performing these job duties, someone may end up suing you and that could be trouble even if you do win in the end!

 

What's your job Cpt??

I deliver ready mix concrete. The time I drove the wrong way on the interstate, I was following the instructions of the State of Indiana, that is how they told me to get to the job. Wrong way streets? Again, delivery instructions clearly stating "come in wrong way on street". You can't mix large amounts of concrete on site and to deliver it I have to get to the job, very often this entails driving in a manner most folks aren't allowed to.

Ever see signs stateing "No trucks" or "weight limit 4 tons"? We ignore those to, we have deliveries to make there, we go there.

In fact several years ago the county here decided to tell the owners they couldn't send their trucks down county roads because we are to heavy, which would put us out of business.

As fate would have it though, the county was replacing a bridge and needed concrete. Sorry, you told us to stay off the county roads.

 

Well this is different they said, it's for the county.

 

Boss told them no way, if we couldn't deliver to everyone we couldn't deliver to them, and don't even think about calling another company in.

 

Next morning the county called back, our trucks are permanetly exempted from weight limits on roads, we can go where we please.

You gotta love resonable people.

 

You'll be hard pressed to find safer drivers than us, we know what we are doing and we take extra care to protect people and property. In fact I've only been in two accidents at work, both times my truck was parked and was clipped by car drivers who claimed they didn't see it, even though it's 13 feet tall, 8 feet 6 inches wide, painted red white and blue and had the lights and the warning flashers on. Yea boy, those trucks are tough to see.

Here's a pic of my work truck, believe it or not I backed out of that without needed a pull. This job was a cake walk compared to some I've been on, I've put them places I wouldn't attempt in a 4x4 pickup.

 

 

 

And here's a pic of my previous truck:

 

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Wrong is wrong. Why do people want to try to bend the rules of society?

 

So as to make it "right" in their eyes of course! How else do you suppose some can look themselves in the mirror? One can always rationalize and twist the rules, laws or guidelines to fit their agenda, they just hope that the PTB will "see it their way", and if not, claim ignorance!

 

INTEGRITY...isn't that a great word??

 

Like you've just twisted everything that has been posted here to make yourself look rightous you mean?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Gee Clan...have a bad day? Sick is when someone claims INTEGRITY (ohhh was I shouting) doesn't fit into a debate about right and wrong! Blow hards getting all righteous and screaming foul and condemning those that stand for HIGH MORALS and INTEGRITY are SAD...know anyone like that?

 

As for the INTEGRITY at this part of the conversation...maybe if you stopped acting so indignantly injured and took a breath, you'd realize that was a response to something posted before and not so much bearing merely to the topic at hand. Sorry if you took the next step and thought that was aimed merely at the TOH...we all know how ASSumptions go though!

 

It's really funny how you got all bent because someone points out that some would rather twist and rationalize than take the moral high ground and show a bit of INTEGRITY...WOW! You do show better restraint and judgement while on the "beat" don't you? WOW!

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

What the heck, while I'm ere, this truck rolled with ten yards of concrete on, we had to pull the drum off to make it light enough to tow to Fort Wayne for rebuilding. It looks like a new truck today but it's a 1995 model.

 

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Gee Clan...have a bad day? Sick is when someone claims INTEGRITY (ohhh was I shouting) doesn't fit into a debate about right and wrong! Blow hards getting all righteous and screaming foul and condemning those that stand for HIGH MORALS and INTEGRITY are SAD...know anyone like that?

 

As for the INTEGRITY at this part of the conversation...maybe if you stopped acting so indignantly injured and took a breath, you'd realize that was a response to something posted before and not so much bearing merely to the topic at hand. Sorry if you took the next step and thought that was aimed merely at the TOH...we all know how ASSumptions go though!

 

It's really funny how you got all bent because someone points out that some would rather twist and rationalize than take the moral high ground and show a bit of INTEGRITY...WOW! You do show better restraint and judgement while on the "beat" don't you? WOW!

 

Experience has proven repeatedly that those who claim the moral high ground do not possess it. You have no more integrity than any other poster here.

[+Rockin Roddy]

And no less, but I surely wouldn't get peeved because someone points out how integrity is a great thing! Get real!

 

almost like it struck a very raw nerve??

Edited July 10, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

And no less, but I surely wouldn't get peeved because someone points out how integrity is a great thing! Get real!

 

He'll have to answer whether he was peeved or not, but you'll find most people of integrity don't like to have it questioned by someone who doesn't really know them.

As far as I can tell everyone here has agreed that trespassing is wrong, the only sticking points have been morality and when it really is considered trespassing, which will always be subjective with no right answer.

Barring something new I'll go back to reading now, it's been fun.

[+imajeep]

 

 

Popcorn, anyone?

[+jAY miLLS]

I am not going to go through this whole thread but will add (if it already hasn't been) that these type of "laws" are usually discretionary as a means to control the area/situation (though it is unwritten) if and when control is needed. There are many "laws" that can fall into this category if one thinks about it. i.e jaywalking, littering (where do you smokers flick them butts) etc. In this case public park hours would allow the police to come in and pull the plug on an all night beer party as one example of controling the area/situation. My wife and I routinely walk through and and sometimes sit in a park near our home after hours and have seen the police go by with only a wave. The difference should be obvious.

[Clan Riffster]

<self rightous silliness deleted to save room>

 

Experience has proven repeatedly that those who claim the moral high ground do not possess it. You have no more integrity than any other poster here.

Amen to that, Brother!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Not sure where you got that I was questioning his integrity either Cpt. Actually, up until he got all huffy there, I was agreeing with much of what he had to say.

 

I don't get where I questioned ANYONE'S integrity for that matter! As I said, that was a response to the quote in that post, but you can read into it as you want.

[+TrailGators]

I am not going to go through this whole thread but will add (if it already hasn't been) that these type of "laws" are usually discretionary as a means to control the area/situation (though it is unwritten) if and when control is needed. There are many "laws" that can fall into this category if one thinks about it. i.e jaywalking, littering (where do you smokers flick them butts) etc. In this case public park hours would allow the police to come in and pull the plug on an all night beer party as one example of controling the area/situation. My wife and I routinely walk through and and sometimes sit in a park near our home after hours and have seen the police go by with only a wave. The difference should be obvious.

That's a good point.