Neither Rain Nor Snow, nor Permission...

[Clan Riffster]

Unless somebody here is on the Boston PD bomb squad, and knows exactly what went on, then you are being irresponsible in questioning their intelligence, dedication, and professionalism.

Mike, this is where we disagree. I've been a cop of one flavor or another since I graduated High School in '82. In my professional opinion, Boston has established a criteria of hysterical reaction to reported suspicious objects. If I lived there, I would find it almost irresistible to avoid calling in every pizza box, beer can, mail box, parked car, hub cap, and traffic counter I came across as "looking suspicious", just so I could watch the Key Stone Cops spread their brand of panic to the very citizens they're sworn to protect. I would hope that, eventually, someone would point out how silly they look blowing up harmless stuff.

 

Putting aside the human aspect for a moment, do you know how much it costs to train a police officer? The training that they get is specialized and very costly. Now add even more specialized training like EOD. You are talking about an investment of a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

I've been to three different LEO academies, along with countless other specialized courses relating to law enforcement, so yeah, I think I have some idea.

 

Now, how much did it cost to blow up an unknown device? A couple of thousand dollars at most.

The difference is, training a police officer is an investment. Blowing up a pizza box is a waste of resources. The dollar amount is largely irrelevant.

 

Rather than accusing or criticizing our police and our national security measures, we might exercise that phrase I see in almost every thread...."use a little common sense."

So long as those agencies sworn to protect us refrain from using common sense, why should the general public? We first learn our fears from our parents, then from our peers, and lastly from our government. Of those three, the only one I resent teaching me to fear is the government. As I read the Constitution, teaching fear is not their job.

 

Questioning, accusing, criticising and challenging government and authority lies at the root of this great country of ours. It is not only right and patriotic to make authority accountable, it would be unpatriotic and ultimately disastrous for our nation if we don't!

Thank you Ed. If it wasn't for folks making authority accountable for their actions, no one would be living in a Republic or a Democracy. Most governments across the globe would be unrecognizable today.

 

If I were to come across some type of box that I couldn't see into, and it wasn't supposed to be there, you can bet that I wouldn't walk up and touch it.

The difference is, this particular "device" was supposed to be there.

[+nicolo]

... Sbell111, I don't appreciate your inference that I am a racist. I judge people by their actions and not by their religion, race, color, or nationality. You seem very quick to jump to that conclusion, what does that say about you. ...

Actually, I was thinking 'angry right-wing tool', if you must know. I never suggested that you were a racist.

Since this thread has the same effect as self gratification, I'm done with it.

Not for me and, I suspect, not for most of us. Wash your hands when you're done.

sbell111, it's always fun following a thread that you're involved in, great stuff. Thanks for perking up my boring Friday afternoon.

[+Totem Clan]

I have been closely studying terrorism since 1992.

I've been/was an anti-terrorist/revolutionary since the mid 70's. My very life depended on my knowledge of them.

 

I have interviewed people who are on the front lines in the battle against terrorism, and I have read dozens of interviews from actual terrorists, both foreign and domestic.

I spent my life on that front line. I didn't read interviews. I talked to them.

 

Believe me when I say that I know a lot about terrorism, the reasons for it, and the responses to it.

So do I

 

I used Islamic Jihadists(noticed that I did not say Muslims...I know the difference and I have nothing but respect for the people who follow Muhammads peaceful teachings) because that is the current "face" that is being put on terrorism. If we were having this conversation prior to September 11, 2001, I would have used militia organizations(mainly because before 9/11 when I said the name Osama bin Laden and Al Quaeda people stared at me like I was a monkey doing a card trick). Also, when I mention groups like Earth First, Animal Liberation Front, Green Peace, and other Eco-terrorist groups, people scream at the tops of their lungs that these are not terrorist organizations and they can't be held responsible for what there members do. I could go on all day about groups that SHOULD be considered terrorist but aren't, but that would stir up a giant political pot.

They are terrorist.

 

Sbell111, I don't appreciate your inference that I am a racist. I judge people by their actions and not by their religion, race, color, or nationality. You seem very quick to jump to that conclusion, what does that say about you.

You may not have meant it that way, but that is how it came across

 

Yes, the enemy pitched his tent in our backyard long ago. In fact, some of my very relatives were terrorists who harrased the British back when we were colonies of England. But the biggest difference is that they fought AGAINST oppresion instead of FOR it.

What do you think the terror groups out there are fighting for. They feel they are oppressed. They see us as oppresser. By your logic, the IRA, who by the way train and fight with the Islamics, are in the right because they are fighting against British opression, and have been for centuries. Are they freedom fighters? All terrorist feel they are.

 

In the end, if you don't like the way that your police department handles a certain situation, then quit hiding behind a screen name on the internet and do something about it. Run for city council, run for the police commision, or the office of sheriff. Put your hand in the political arena and change the way that your city does things. Go to work for the campaign of a candidate that you support. Don't try to dodge jury duty.

I have served in or for the government in one form or the other my whole adult life.

 

Edit: Sorry for going off topic but something had to be said.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Totem Clan

[Clan Riffster]

... Sbell111, I don't appreciate your inference that I am a racist.

Actually, I was thinking 'angry right-wing tool', if you must know.

But.....but...... I thought I was the angry right-wing tool.

[+sbell111]

... Sbell111, I don't appreciate your inference that I am a racist.

Actually, I was thinking 'angry right-wing tool', if you must know.

But.....but...... I thought I was the angry right-wing tool.

You don't strike me as angry.

[+Confucius' Cat]

 

Cars for example, make excellent bomb containers. What should they blow up next? Fords or Toyotas?

 

OH MY GOD! HE'S DOUBLE PARKED! CALL HOMELAND SECURITY!!!

Well, this seems to be the direction it is going. And it is very easy to "justify" such outrageous paranoia too. Just wait till we have a few car bombs go off over here and see if they don't start towing (at the very least) every abandoned car within minutes of its abandonment.

 

They already do so at our airports.

 

I really don't think one would want to purposely detonate a car. If it is full of explosives, it is going to be a really HUGE firecracker. Not to mention that they routinely have a tank of highly flammable and explosive liquid in them, even if they are not bombs. Of course a car might be abandoned because it is out of gas, in which case it is fair game for the bomb squad to blow it up.

 

While we are living in a brave new world, danger is still not lurking around every corner.

Exactly. The danger is GROSSLY overstated.

 

The violent death toll in most of our major cities far exceeds that of the Iraq war. But all we hear is how we gotta run away from Iraq like scared rabbits because we are taking such ENORMOUS losses.

 

The odds of an individual being a victim of crime in our cities are perhaps just a little bit greater than the odds of their getting hit by lightning. But because we are constantly bombarded by the news stories, we are being conditioned to perceive a world where death stalks us on every city street. Yet millions of people walk the streets of New York every day in perfect safety.

 

In this "brave new world" the biggest danger lurking around the corner is the same as has been lurking there forever: muggers, robbers, rapists, gang members, druggies, carjackers, you name it.

 

The national focus is on terrorism.

 

Bombings of any size are EXTREMELY RARE in this country, but since terrorism is always in the headlines and the network sound bites, we are being conditioned to believe that this is our biggest domestic threat.

 

We really aren't facing any NEW dangers since 911. We are just being relentlessly made aware of the "new" danger of terrorism. This is what is fueling the hysteria that is resulting in routine blowings-up of innocent items.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Confucius' Cat

[Clan Riffster]

Very well put. The only change I would make is to this statement:

In this "brave new world" the biggest danger lurking around the corner is the same as has been lurking there forever: muggers, robbers, rapists, gang members, druggies, carjackers, you name it.

In the opinion of this ol' fat guy, the biggest danger lurking around the corner is our government taking away what few freedoms we still enjoy, and the average citizen giving away those freedoms in the name of "security", from a threat that does not merit such action.

[+Totem Clan]

Very well put. The only change I would make is to this statement:

In this "brave new world" the biggest danger lurking around the corner is the same as has been lurking there forever: muggers, robbers, rapists, gang members, druggies, carjackers, you name it.

In the opinion of this ol' fat guy, the biggest danger lurking around the corner is our government taking away what few freedoms we still enjoy, and the average citizen giving away those freedoms in the name of "security", from a threat that does not merit such action.

Yep. That's a very slippery slope. We must protect ourselves, but more importantly we must protect our freedom and our way of life.

[+sbell111]

... The violent death toll in most of our major cities far exceeds that of the Iraq war. But all we hear is how we gotta run away from Iraq like scared rabbits because we are taking such ENORMOUS losses. ...

I suspect that that you are wrong about the death toll in our cities outranking that of the Iraq war. Even if you only include combat deaths on our side, I suspect the numbers are much higher. If you include those non-death casualties, they are much, much higher. If you further include combat losses on 'the other side, they are WAY larger. If you then include losses that Iraqis inflaict on Iraqis, the number soars.

 

I'm just saying...

[+Confucius' Cat]

Very well put. The only change I would make is to this statement:

In this "brave new world" the biggest danger lurking around the corner is the same as has been lurking there forever: muggers, robbers, rapists, gang members, druggies, carjackers, you name it.

In the opinion of this ol' fat guy, the biggest danger lurking around the corner is our government taking away what few freedoms we still enjoy, and the average citizen giving away those freedoms in the name of "security", from a threat that does not merit such action.

Yep. That's a very slippery slope. We must protect ourselves, but more importantly we must protect our freedom and our way of life.

Absolutely in agreement.

 

We are heading toward totalitarianism (or at the very least toward a LOT MORE government "meddling" in our lives) for absolutely NO good reason.

 

The threat of terrorism, while quite real, MUST NOT be used as an excuse to give up the freedoms on which our great country was founded.

 

What is REALLY sad about this whole mess, for those who ARE willing to give up their freedom for security, and for those of us who ARE NOT but get out-shouted and out-voted by the wusses amongst us, is that even after giving it all up, there WON'T REALLY BE any more security. We will have sold out our forefathers' dream and their great sacrifices for just a crappy illusion- nothing but "feelgoodism."

 

All of the "suspicious object" blowing up, the screenings at airports and public buildings, the surveillance cameras, the eavesdropping and wiretapping, the disarming of our citizens and all the other "security measures" that are, to one extent or another, usurpations of our constitutional rights are no more than "smoke and mirrors" in terms of their ultimate effectiveness in stopping a determined enemy.

 

I believe most of the highly publicized bomb squad incidents are just for show. They are a way of saying to the cowering or complacent masses, "See we are keeping you safe."

 

So the blowings-up will continue, no matter how farcical, so TPTB can put on their show.

[+Confucius' Cat]

... The violent death toll in most of our major cities far exceeds that of the Iraq war. But all we hear is how we gotta run away from Iraq like scared rabbits because we are taking such ENORMOUS losses. ...

I suspect that that you are wrong about the death toll in our cities outranking that of the Iraq war. Even if you only include combat deaths on our side, I suspect the numbers are much higher. If you include those non-death casualties, they are much, much higher. If you further include combat losses on 'the other side, they are WAY larger. If you then include losses that Iraqis inflaict on Iraqis, the number soars.

 

I'm just saying...

Actually, i was referring to deaths of OUR soldiers, which from the context should be fairly clear. The stats for 2006 as i found with just one click was 821. the same article says that there were 406 homicides in Philedelphia alone. As i recall, Indianpolis (my big city neighbour) had about 150.

 

I guess I should have left out the words "most of" since what i really meant was a summation, not an average of our major cities.

 

By simply summing the "F" (murders) column in This FBI publication spreadsheet, I get the sum of 8,201 4,100 murders in the U.S. reported in 2006.

 

Correction: I just noticed that summing the cells yields a total of 2005 and 2006 murders. Since I only have the number for combat deaths in 2006, my stats have been corrected by halving the FBI number since manipulating the spreadsheet or finding the 2005-2006 total of combat deaths is too much trouble at this time. Don't confuse me with facts when i am trying to confuse you with facts.

 

So anyway we lost nearly TEN FIVE TIMES as many Americans in our own cities than we did in IRAQ.

 

Maybe we should pull out of the U.S. ?

Edited March 11, 2007 by Confucius' Cat

[+gh patriot]

AMEN!!!!!!!!! IM with the wise cat.

Edited March 11, 2007 by gh patriot

[+gh patriot]

We should have out police pull out of all major cities because they just cant seem to get murder and violent crime to zero.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I guess I'm off topic for sure here, but setting a date for a pullout of Iraq is like the swat team saying to the barricaded suspect, "If you don't surrender, we're leaving at noon."

 

Just with our TALK about pullout, the Iraq troublemakers would be wise to stop fighting immediately so we would pull out immediately then they could take over immediately. Gee I'm glad they aren't that smart.

[+sbell111]

... The violent death toll in most of our major cities far exceeds that of the Iraq war. But all we hear is how we gotta run away from Iraq like scared rabbits because we are taking such ENORMOUS losses. ...

I suspect that that you are wrong about the death toll in our cities outranking that of the Iraq war. Even if you only include combat deaths on our side, I suspect the numbers are much higher. If you include those non-death casualties, they are much, much higher. If you further include combat losses on 'the other side, they are WAY larger. If you then include losses that Iraqis inflaict on Iraqis, the number soars.

 

I'm just saying...

Actually, i was referring to deaths of OUR soldiers, which from the context should be fairly clear. The stats for 2006 as i found with just one click was 821. the same article says that there were 406 homicides in Philedelphia alone. As i recall, Indianpolis (my big city neighbour) had about 150.

From your original wording, it appeared that you wee stating that there were more homicides in any major US city than combat deaths in Iraq. Since the US is a much larger country, I don't think anyone would be surprised that total homicides in the US is larger. That being said, a more appropriate comparison would use total conflict-related deaths, not just the numbers released for US deaths.

 

That being said, how many US deaths would be 'enough'?

I guess I'm off topic for sure here, but setting a date for a pullout of Iraq is like the swat team saying to the barricaded suspect, "If you don't surrender, we're leaving at noon."

 

Just with our TALK about pullout, the Iraq troublemakers would be wise to stop fighting immediately so we would pull out immediately then they could take over immediately. Gee I'm glad they aren't that smart.

The problem with your logic is, if followed to it's conclusion, we would never be able to leave Iraq. Surely, we get to pull our troops out, eventually.

[+gh patriot]

There is no war in US so one would expect there to be less violent deaths.

[+sbell111]

There is no war in US so one would expect there to be less violent deaths.

Really? That's not been my experience.

[+Confucius' Cat]

The problem with your logic is, if followed to it's conclusion, we would never be able to leave Iraq. Surely, we get to pull our troops out, eventually.

Actually, I'm not sure we do- at least not ALL of them. We still have bases in Germany and Japan 60 years after "the big one".

 

i will admit i do not know when it is best to quit. I leave that to the judgment of the military.

 

That is a problem with war. It generally never ends; it just lulls and peaks. I suspect it is going to be that way for quite a while longer.

 

Horrible thing, war- causes you to miss dinner.

 

Anyway to try to get back on topic:

There really isn't anything we can do to prevent caches from being "suspicious" objects and occasionally getting reported as such and consequently blown up even though it might be obvious to anyone with half a brain that the cache is harmless.

 

"Suspicious" is in the nature of the game- especially in urban areas.

[+gh patriot]

There is no war in US so one would expect there to be less violent deaths.

Really? That's not been my experience.

 

whats been your experience?

[+sbell111]

There is no war in US so one would expect there to be less violent deaths.

Really? That's not been my experience.

whats been your experience?

People kill each other.

[+gh patriot]

There is no war in US so one would expect there to be less violent deaths.

Really? That's not been my experience.

whats been your experience?

People kill each other.

Yes they do unfortunatly.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Bison Tube Bomb Scare!

 

Yet another bit of media-driven insanity: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=...&id=5110698

 

Thankfully the police handled this on with some sense!

[Clan Riffster]

Thankfully the police handled this on with some sense!

Must not have been in Boston.

Judging from these comments in the article, I'm not sure it was a bison tube.

"a 2-inch-long metal cylinder" and "a car drive up, leave the metal canister on the ground"

I found this cache, Get In, Get Out - Covina, which appears to be the culprit. That cache was listed as a small.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Clan Riffster

[+Big Bear TC]

... The violent death toll in most of our major cities far exceeds that of the Iraq war. But all we hear is how we gotta run away from Iraq like scared rabbits because we are taking such ENORMOUS losses. ...

I suspect that that you are wrong about the death toll in our cities outranking that of the Iraq war. Even if you only include combat deaths on our side, I suspect the numbers are much higher. If you include those non-death casualties, they are much, much higher. If you further include combat losses on 'the other side, they are WAY larger. If you then include losses that Iraqis inflaict on Iraqis, the number soars.

 

I'm just saying...

Actually, i was referring to deaths of OUR soldiers, which from the context should be fairly clear. The stats for 2006 as i found with just one click was 821. the same article says that there were 406 homicides in Philedelphia alone. As i recall, Indianpolis (my big city neighbour) had about 150.

 

I guess I should have left out the words "most of" since what i really meant was a summation, not an average of our major cities.

 

By simply summing the "F" (murders) column in This FBI publication spreadsheet, I get the sum of 8,201 4,100 murders in the U.S. reported in 2006.

 

Correction: I just noticed that summing the cells yields a total of 2005 and 2006 murders. Since I only have the number for combat deaths in 2006, my stats have been corrected by halving the FBI number since manipulating the spreadsheet or finding the 2005-2006 total of combat deaths is too much trouble at this time. Don't confuse me with facts when i am trying to confuse you with facts.

 

So anyway we lost nearly TEN FIVE TIMES as many Americans in our own cities than we did in IRAQ.

 

Maybe we should pull out of the U.S. ?

As service person I applaud you. I might be deploying in the near future to the Big Sand Box.

But I would like to bring one thing up. Everyone is crying and complained on how service members died in Iraq. Yes it is very sad. I knew one of the guys in the Air Force who died. Very nice man.

What about WWII? Storming the beaches of Normandy. We lost over 6,000 count it over 6,000 men in the first day. 4,000 landing on the beach. That was for a Nobel cause. Should I go into other wars we found and lost people? Yes war is Hell, but it is also horrible to let 1 man to decide because of religious believes if you live or die. I have a very good friend in Bosnia that is Muslim. The Muslim people hate what the Extremist Muslims are doing. Muslim is a very peaceful religion. When I was in Bosnia doing my job a couple of years ago I got hugs from some if the people there to say THANK YOU for all you are doing. We love the Americans and please tell your President to not take you out from here. Now that is got to tell you something. Most of the people in Iraq are saying the same thing. It is just a few people that make them all look bad.

[+sbell111]

Iraq is not WWII. Heck, it's not even Vietnam. In those conflicts, there was an end game. In Iraq, there is not. We are going to continue to fight until peace breaks out. I don't get how we expect that to work.

 

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that there is nothing to win and no way to get there. If that is true, there is no point in squandering the lives of any more Marines. We should redeploy and call it a victory or defeat, I really don't care.

[+Trucker Lee]

I blame the so-called 'transportation officials' who couldn't squeeze enough brain cells together to adequately camo their counters. If you hide those things better, they won't get blown up.

 

In this case, would adequate camo include 2-inch letters stating

"TRANSPORTATION DEPARTMENT

TRAFFIC COUNTER" ?

[+Trucker Lee]

We should have out police pull out of all major cities because they just cant seem to get murder and violent crime to zero.

 

Let's take this the the ultimate conclusion........... no one should be allowed to drive because our traffic deaths are constantly one of the biggest causes of loss of life.

[+sbell111]

We should have out police pull out of all major cities because they just cant seem to get murder and violent crime to zero.

Let's take this the the ultimate conclusion........... no one should be allowed to drive because our traffic deaths are constantly one of the biggest causes of loss of life.

No one should eat fast food because people get fat and end up hypertensive and diabetic.

[+Gadgetman!]

Seems I found this topic a bit late, but...

 

I couldn't get the video to play, but I'm familiar with many models of traffic-counters used here in Norway.

 

Permanent/semi-permanent types are usually built into a steel case which is securely mounted by the side of the road, and is very difficult to mistake for anything else.

(Most bombers don't use concrete to fasten their bombs)

 

As for the transient types, they can come in many shapes, but they all have a few points in common...

 

1. They are steel containers. (Quite often they have milled reinforcements around the ends, and 'military type' cable connectors and fittings, too) They never look as if they've just been thrown together in a basement workshop....

2. They are marked with serial-numbers and the authority who owns them...

3. There are one or more cables going to the road.

 

These cables can be under the asphalt, in which case it should be possible to see a pattern that has been cut out of the asphalt, then 'glued' back in.

Or they may be laid on top of the asphalt, in which case they've been bolted into place.

 

In any case, this type of equipment is 'rather distinctive' and only the most incompetent EOD personnell will blow it up without first contacting the owners...

(We have a few incidents every year where people shoot at them with shotguns or rifles, to 'destroy the evidence that they were speeding'... As if the box had a camera. Shooting at the automatic traffic cams doesn't help, either. Those use GSM upload pictures as soon as they've been taken... )

 

My guess is that one of those EOD bozos recently got a speeding/parking-ticket and decided that this was a good excuse to get revenge.

[+gh patriot]

We should have out police pull out of all major cities because they just cant seem to get murder and violent crime to zero.

Let's take this the the ultimate conclusion........... no one should be allowed to drive because our traffic deaths are constantly one of the biggest causes of loss of life.

No one should eat fast food because people get fat and end up hypertensive and diabetic.

 

I knew I wasn't the only person who thought these ideas.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Everyone cries when the PTB do too much...then everyone wants to sue when enough isn't done...those who want to stick their heads in the sand and "pretend" we aren't in danger from terrorists will likely be the first to be blown up.

 

Yes...call me paranoid, call me anything you want...but at least I'll be going in with my eyes OPEN!!! Mikeslomka has been calling it pretty good...I'll stand with him on this. You guys want to "blame" the Boston PTB for handling things in the safest manner they are given??? You say yourselves that bombs aren't made to look like bombs, then you ridicule those who blow up something that doesn't look like a bomb...FUNNY!!!!

 

I do agree with the line of thought that if you don't like the way things are being handled, you COULD try it out for yourselves...see how easy it is from their end and then you can criticize all you want!! Yes, we have the right to question and scrutinize our PTB (I do all the time) but second-guessing someone for siding on safety is BS...would you feel the same if it WERE a bomb???

 

And some of you are the ones that say to err on the side of caution when entering a playground??? TOO FUNNY!!!

 

edit for spelling as usual!!

Edited March 12, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[Clan Riffster]

Everyone cries when the PTB do too much...then everyone wants to sue when enough isn't done.

Who do you consider to be "everyone"? Would I fall into the category of "everyone"? I haven't cried yet, though I have laughed at the utter incompetence displayed by so called professionals, nor have I sued anybody, even though I lost fellow law enforcement officers in both 9-11 and the Oklahoma City bombing. It might sound silly of me, but I kinda figured the folks who actually committed the act were the ones to blame, not the Imperial "Gubment".

 

those who want to stick their heads in the sand and "pretend" we aren't in danger from terrorists will likely be the first to be blown up.

I assume you have some statistics to support this nonsense? Were the occupants of the WTC, the Pentagon, the USS Cole, the servicemen in the Khobar Towers and the assorted targeted US Embassies pretending that no problem exists?

 

Yes...call me paranoid

OK, you're paranoid.

 

Mikeslomka has been calling it pretty good...I'll stand with him on this.

Good for you. No one should have to be alone when promoting fear.

 

I do agree with the line of thought that if you don't like the way things are being handled, you COULD try it out for yourselves...see how easy it is from their end and then you can criticize all you want!!

Thank you. Since I have tried it out for myself, I will accept this statement as permission from you to criticize all I want. Once you have gone through the training that I have, and actually have some level of experience with IED's other than what you are force fed on CNN, I might accept your theory that anything and everything that gets called in as suspicious should be blown up. Until then, you are arguing from a position of emotion, not logic, and I'll treat your arguments accordingly.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Clan Riffster

[Dinoprophet]

Everyone cries when the PTB do too much...then everyone wants to sue when enough isn't done...

I'm not sure how you figure those are the same people. I'm appalled at how this was handled. I was also appalled -- more appalled -- at how some people turned 9/11 into their own personal windfall.

 

those who want to stick their heads in the sand and "pretend" we aren't in danger from terrorists will likely be the first to be blown up.

We're all equally likely to be blown up (well, those in cities are more likely than others, I guess). And that likelihood is quite low. We've always been a target for terrorists, though very few of us have been victims of them. I'm not sure how someone's attitude makes them more of a target. Please explain.

 

Yes...call me paranoid, call me anything you want...but at least I'll be going in with my eyes OPEN!!! Mikeslomka has been calling it pretty good...I'll stand with him on this. You guys want to "blame" the Boston PTB for handling things in the safest manner they are given???

Yes. Safest is not necessarily the best. The money blown on this farce could have been spent on some much more effective security measures. This was not free, don't kid yourself.

 

You say yourselves that bombs aren't made to look like bombs, then you ridicule those who blow up something that doesn't look like a bomb...FUNNY!!!!

No, we say a bomb would not be so obvious.

 

I do agree with the line of thought that if you don't like the way things are being handled, you COULD try it out for yourselves...see how easy it is from their end and then you can criticize all you want!! Yes, we have the right to question and scrutinize our PTB (I do all the time) but second-guessing someone for siding on safety is BS...would you feel the same if it WERE a bomb???

Of course not. I just don't believe that's a reasonable scenario. You might as well smash my mailbox then tell me I'd be happy about it if it had been a bomb. Of course I would be, but the idea is ridiculous.

 

And some of you are the ones that say to err on the side of caution when entering a playground??? TOO FUNNY!!!

Well, some people are paranoid about terrorists, and some of us are paranoid about those people. "...the only thing we have to fear is fear itself -- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." - FDR

 

Understand, I have no doubt there will be future terrorist attacks on American soil. I just don't think 9/11 made that any different. It woke us up, and we know to be more cautious, but there's a whole spectrum of reasonable caution that can be used before we resort to blowing up traffic counters and putting 4-year olds on no-fly lists.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+geomann1]

Has anyone stopped to think how much damage a 35 mm film canister filled with Plutonium could do?

 

Or God forbid an Altoids container?

 

Either of the above placed in a suspiciuos location warrants immediate government investigation and detonation. After all when we are dealinng with "Islamic Jihadists" or the commies for that matter, one can't be too careful or alert. They are everywhere, just waiting for us to look the other way. You are a fool if you don't check the bushes everday around the house. After all, do we really know that Bin Laden is not hiding out in suburban America with weapons of mass dustruction in hand? Thank God the government is willimng to step in and protect us from ourselves. Who really nearly Liberty after all?

 

America needs to get real and come to grips with the real dangers in life!!!!!!

[+Totem Clan]

Sometimes it's hard to tell what tone folks are typing in. You are being sarcastic, right?

[+Renegade Knight]

Seems I found this topic a bit late, but...

 

I couldn't get the video to play, but I'm familiar with many models of traffic-counters used here in Norway....3. There are one or more cables going to the road....

 

In the video the cables were not visible where you would expect them to be. They could have been removed or relocated. There was a potenial cable visible in the sidewalk but the video resolution wasn't sharp enough to see it clearly and determin if it was one of the cables.

[+Renegade Knight]

... You guys want to "blame" the Boston PTB for handling things in the safest manner they are given??? ...

 

The real point of the thread wasn't so much that Boston erred on the side of saftey. The real point is two fold. First that all sort of things that are not bombs are reported, investigated, and blown up. Second because all sorts of things get reported geocachers should not be ranted and raved at, and threatened prosecutio any more than the street department. Save it for actual bombs and actual threats, and actual hoaxes and actual harmful intent. There is more than enough of that to keep people busy.

[+sbell111]

Has anyone stopped to think how much damage a 35 mm film canister filled with Plutonium could do? ...

That's a honking lot of plutonium. I suspect that it would kill the hider before it could be placed. I wonder if you could even put plutonium in a film can.

[+headybrew]

...If I were to come across some type of box that I couldn't see into, and it wasn't supposed to be there, you can bet that I wouldn't walk up and touch it.

And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities.

 

Don't you get it? The terrorists goal is to terrorize you.

Quotes like the above show that they have succeeded.

[+Totem Clan]

...If I were to come across some type of box that I couldn't see into, and it wasn't supposed to be there, you can bet that I wouldn't walk up and touch it.

And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities.

 

Don't you get it? The terrorists goal is to terrorize you.

Quotes like the above show that they have succeeded.

Ding ding ding ding.....

We have a winner.

 

In many case the line between caution and paranoia has not just been crossed, but it has been raced across and left fading in the distance.

[+headybrew]

Have you noticed that you keep singling out these dangerous 'islamic jihadists' but your example (and most terrorism committed within the US) is of the home grown variety. I'm not absolutely sure what that means, but I think I know.

 

How many small bombs in a package at a road-side have *ever* been detonated in the US by Islamic Jihadists?

 

Let's see, the Atlanta Olympic bombing? nope. That was an American...

 

Can you think of any? Any at all?

 

There have been larger operations, like the first and second world trade center attacks. Can you think of even *one* that was a small package placed in a public place?

 

Granted, this could all change tomorrow when one does go of and kill/injure some poeple in a wall-mart or something. But has it happend yet? Has there even been a non-successful attempt that was thwarted by a bomb squad?

[+Confucius' Cat]

Has anyone stopped to think how much damage a 35 mm film canister filled with Plutonium could do?

 

Or God forbid an Altoids container?

 

Either of the above placed in a suspiciuos location warrants immediate government investigation and detonation. After all when we are dealinng with "Islamic Jihadists" or the commies for that matter, one can't be too careful or alert. They are everywhere, just waiting for us to look the other way. You are a fool if you don't check the bushes everday around the house. After all, do we really know that Bin Laden is not hiding out in suburban America with weapons of mass dustruction in hand? Thank God the government is willimng to step in and protect us from ourselves. Who really nearly Liberty after all?

 

America needs to get real and come to grips with the real dangers in life!!!!!!

So, if someone filled a film can with plutonium, often touted as "the most toxic substance known to man", assuming it didn't melt the film can before the hider could hide it, the CORRECT and expected response from the "government" would be to "detonate" it (in your words)?

 

Well, say goodbye to your city for the next couple hundred years!

[+gh patriot]

 

So this would be a bad container for a urban micro hide?

[+Renegade Knight]

So this would be a bad container for a urban micro hide?

 

Not if you used the right paint job.

[+gh patriot]

 

Me looking for an urban micro.

[Clan Riffster]

Well, say goodbye to your city for the next couple hundred years!

Cat, I think he was kidding.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I understand this thread was about not prosecuting the cachers...after reading sooo many of these posts that say we should forget worrying, I thought I'd stand up and say my two-cents. I agree that NORMAL everyday objects shouldn't always be "blown up", but when something does, it seems that a large majority in here "blows" it off as a stupid over-reaction by the PTB. Someone even suggests that, since it hasn't happened, why would we bother to worry?? THAT'S sticking you head in the sand!!!

 

Posts like those that say to ignore what is happening in the world won't stop what is happening, they may "calm" people into a sense of safety..."oh, you guys...it hasn't happened here yet, what's the big deal"??? Those that do ignore the possibility ARE likely more in danger than those that are diligently watching out (no, I don't have statistical evidence, just using common sense thought here). Mikeslomka has said it right...we are in the very start of a whole new terroristic threat that could and probably WILL happen all across the USA!!! I could care less what color or ethnic or religious background, there are MANY out there that would rather kill us than say "hi"!! Oh...and guess what...there are some out there that would like to kill ANYONE for kicks, so COPY-CAT attacks SHOULD be a worry as well (the anthrax attacks at the post offices was likely a home grown terrorist, Ted the Unibomber, The Oklahoma attacks etc)...just because it isn't some crazed murderous fanatic from over-seas that set off these attacks doesn't make the attack any less real or deadly!

 

Cachers may get more scrutiny than wanted, we act suspiciously in nature because we ARE trying to hide an (or retreive a hidden) object from the public's veiw...(strange actions at strange times in busy places like parking lots and other urban areas where many people are present), many times in VERY public places. Keep in mind that terrorists are wanting to inflict the MOST damage at a "regular" setting to best scare and demoralize us...it would seem that TONS of "normal" people visit Wally World on a regular basis (if I were a terrorist, that would make a pretty good target for me...easily accessible, good damage factor, would scare the mass into NOT going out to public places and I can be right in and out without too much attention on my actions)...and then watch out if you go after a lamppost hide....your movements will be watched CLOSELY!

 

Newbies (and some of us older salts as well) have tried hiding caches on mailboxes, under bridges and near government or such buildings...those areas are big NO NO's and anyone doing this SHOULD be prosecuted if it causes a big fuss such as the Lite-Brite incident. You KNOWINGLY cause a fuss and you should be held responsible (and ignorance of the law...or rules...isn't an excuse). An innocent cache placed in a park near some trees and such may bring attention, may even get blown up to err on the side of safety, but they shouldn't blame cachers in that instance...we are following the rules after all.

 

And to say that the PTB should use their money for safer security measures...what would that be??? Is there some magic wand now that instantly tells what is dangerous and what isn't??? Should we have them installing more and more security cameras and closing off more public space in the name of safety??? We are in a learning phase here (since this type of terroristic threat is new to our land) we may get it wrong a few times (hell, even a few MILLION times)...but practice makes perfect!!!

 

edit to add...hey...I do go overboard when making my points...so do the terrorists!!!

Edited March 13, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

Wow. That's a really long post. Part of me wonders what it says.

[+Rockin Roddy]

reading it would likely solve that prob sbell!!!!

[+sbell111]

reading it would likely solve that prob sbell!!!!

I thought about that, but I'm wayyy too lazy. There are two things that make me glaze over: really long posts and wierd fonts. I realize that this is a failing of mine, not yours.