Religion Themed Caches

[+ReadyOrNot]

So your action was so appropriate you did not feel the need to ask tell or meantion it to anyone, including the owner of the TB?

 

People really shouldn't be adding things to TBs unless directed to, but was removing it without direction much better???

 

I think adding it to the TB changed the TB from it's original factory condition. Me removing it restored it to what it was before. Which of the actions altered the TB? Mr. Anonymous adding the item or me removing it? If you ask the owner, it would be clear... <---- (It's funny how something becomes very clear when you write it yourself)...

 

OK - Perhaps asking the owner to be 100% sure before removing something is not a bad idea..... If I am so sure that the owner would have wanted it removed, then what's the harm in asking??

 

I still think that the community should police itself... and TB owners should be notified before any modifications to their TB's (that's the smallest font size????)

[+VeryLost]

I think the community will police itself.

 

In a way, then, that is precisely what is happening here. Members of the community think your removal of a "Wiccan" item (and I put that in quotes because I have trouble believing it was Wiccan based on your description) was inappropriate, and are making sure you know that.

 

You have made it clear that you removed it because you perceived its religious intent as differing from your own inflexible dogma. By saying "there is a difference between a cross and a wiccan symbol", you removed all doubt - you're not interested in the community, or even what is appropriate or not, but rather in merely foisting your subjective viewpoint upon the rest of us.

 

I can see no way around it. Your action, and subsequent attempts to justify it, are repugnant.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I think the community will police itself.

 

In a way, then, that is precisely what is happening here. Members of the community think your removal of a "Wiccan" item (and I put that in quotes because I have trouble believing it was Wiccan based on your description) was inappropriate, and are making sure you know that.

 

You have made it clear that you removed it because you perceived its religious intent as differing from your own inflexible dogma. By saying "there is a difference between a cross and a wiccan symbol", you removed all doubt - you're not interested in the community, or even what is appropriate or not, but rather in merely foisting your subjective viewpoint upon the rest of us.

 

I can see no way around it. Your action, and subsequent attempts to justify it, are repugnant.

 

Wow.. i thought my admission of wrong doing would have ended this, but you had to get one last flame in there huh? Let's be clear: "SOME" members find it inappropriate to remove the wiccan item. I still find the item inappropriate. Here's a wake-up call: Religion is in and of itself is very inflexible. Christianity is inflexible. Islam is inflexible. Jews are inflexible. Mormons are inflexible. If they weren't inflexible than everyone would agree wouldn't they? I'm sorry that this world doesn't work the way you would like.

 

Here you are telling me that my actions are repugnant. That is just as judgmental as anything I said. At least I admit that what I believe is inflexible. Look above: Are you saying that a cross and a wiccan symbol are the same? Which is it? Are they different or the same? Everything is equal right...

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

OK - Perhaps asking the owner to be 100% sure before removing something is not a bad idea..

 

Oh sure, when Welch says it.

[+Snoogans]

Okay,

 

Caches: If gc.com approves the 'theme' then mind your own business.

 

Travel bugs: If someone add an item to a travel bug, ask the owner before removing it.

 

You might not need moral authority from anyone but you are darn arrogant if you messing with their bugs without asking.

 

Come on.. I thought we established that the TB was not messed with. Let's find a point to agree on so we can end this. <snipity snip>

 

I could so go to town on the rest of that post but...um....yawwwn.

 

Why do you insist that we agree on something?

 

We aren't lions in the coliseum. We are your peers and we disapprove. Insisting you're right won't change it. There's no grounds to agree to disagree. There's no need to defend yourself further. You've already stated you are perfectly fine with it and I for one have forgiven you.....

[+ReadyOrNot]

OK - Perhaps asking the owner to be 100% sure before removing something is not a bad idea..

 

Oh sure, when Welch says it.

 

You can take the credit if it makes you feel better

[+BlueDeuce]

Wow.. i thought my admission of wrong doing would have ended this, but you had to get one last flame in there huh? Let's be clear: "SOME" members find it inappropriate to remove the wiccan item. I still find the item inappropriate. Here's a wake-up call: Religion is in and of itself is very inflexible. Christianity is inflexible. Islam is inflexible. Jews are inflexible. Mormons are inflexible. If they weren't inflexible than everyone would agree wouldn't they? I'm sorry that this world doesn't work the way you would like.

 

Here you are telling me that my actions are repugnant. That is just as judgmental as anything I said. At least I admit that what I believe is inflexible.

 

This is not about inflexibilty. This is about what you should and shouldn't do when it comes to gc.com related issues.

 

If gc.com one day decides that every TB must be a yellow happy face, then that's what it is going to be. This isn't about you.

 

They allow it, they don't allow it, if you aren't sure what that is, ask!

[+ReadyOrNot]

Wow.. i thought my admission of wrong doing would have ended this, but you had to get one last flame in there huh? Let's be clear: "SOME" members find it inappropriate to remove the wiccan item. I still find the item inappropriate. Here's a wake-up call: Religion is in and of itself is very inflexible. Christianity is inflexible. Islam is inflexible. Jews are inflexible. Mormons are inflexible. If they weren't inflexible than everyone would agree wouldn't they? I'm sorry that this world doesn't work the way you would like.

 

Here you are telling me that my actions are repugnant. That is just as judgmental as anything I said. At least I admit that what I believe is inflexible.

 

This is not about inflexibilty. This is about what you should and shouldn't do when it comes to gc.com related issues.

 

If gc.com one day decides that every TB must be a yellow happy face, then that's what it is going to be. This isn't about you.

 

They allow it, they don't allow it, if you aren't sure what that is, ask!

 

I guess I'm the type of person that if someone tells me that it has to be a yellow face, I'll put one out there that is blue. GC.COM is not the authority, they are a listing service... They really don't want to get into the policing game.. I've seen them post that viewpoint on several occasions.

 

Caches placed in Amish areas of pennsylvania are probably going to get policed differently by the community than caches places in the red light district of Amsterdam.. It's not GC.COM that determines what's appropriate... It's the community.

[+welch]

I think adding it to the TB changed the TB from it's original factory condition. Me removing it restored it to what it was before. Which of the actions altered the TB? Mr. Anonymous adding the item or me removing it? If you ask the owner, it would be clear... <---- (It's funny how something becomes very clear when you write it yourself)...

 

OK - Perhaps asking the owner to be 100% sure before removing something is not a bad idea..... If I am so sure that the owner would have wanted it removed, then what's the harm in asking??

 

I still think that the community should police itself... and TB owners should be notified before any modifications to their TB's (that's the smallest font size????)

I think both actions altered the Noid TB. Someone altered the TB, and later you altered it again. Did either of these have the owners permission?

 

Are you saying you did notify the owner before modifying their travelbug???

This seems slightly different from what you've in posts further up this thread

[+BlueDeuce]

Wow.. i thought my admission of wrong doing would have ended this, but you had to get one last flame in there huh? Let's be clear: "SOME" members find it inappropriate to remove the wiccan item. I still find the item inappropriate. Here's a wake-up call: Religion is in and of itself is very inflexible. Christianity is inflexible. Islam is inflexible. Jews are inflexible. Mormons are inflexible. If they weren't inflexible than everyone would agree wouldn't they? I'm sorry that this world doesn't work the way you would like.

 

Here you are telling me that my actions are repugnant. That is just as judgmental as anything I said. At least I admit that what I believe is inflexible.

 

This is not about inflexibilty. This is about what you should and shouldn't do when it comes to gc.com related issues.

 

If gc.com one day decides that every TB must be a yellow happy face, then that's what it is going to be. This isn't about you.

 

They allow it, they don't allow it, if you aren't sure what that is, ask!

 

I guess I'm the type of person that if someone tells me that it has to be a yellow face, I'll put one out there that is blue. GC.COM is not the authority, they are a listing service... They really don't want to get into the policing game.. I've seen them post that viewpoint on several occasions.

 

Caches placed in Amish areas of pennsylvania are probably going to get policed differently by the community than caches places in the red light district of Amsterdam.. It's not GC.COM that determines what's appropriate... It's the community.

 

 

If you'll excuse me, I have to use a forked stick to divine my way to a local park with my four year old.

 

I'll be back to discuss the question behind the answer 42 later.

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+ReadyOrNot]

Wow.. i thought my admission of wrong doing would have ended this, but you had to get one last flame in there huh? Let's be clear: "SOME" members find it inappropriate to remove the wiccan item. I still find the item inappropriate. Here's a wake-up call: Religion is in and of itself is very inflexible. Christianity is inflexible. Islam is inflexible. Jews are inflexible. Mormons are inflexible. If they weren't inflexible than everyone would agree wouldn't they? I'm sorry that this world doesn't work the way you would like.

 

Here you are telling me that my actions are repugnant. That is just as judgmental as anything I said. At least I admit that what I believe is inflexible.

 

This is not about inflexibilty. This is about what you should and shouldn't do when it comes to gc.com related issues.

 

If gc.com one day decides that every TB must be a yellow happy face, then that's what it is going to be. This isn't about you.

 

They allow it, they don't allow it, if you aren't sure what that is, ask!

 

I guess I'm the type of person that if someone tells me that it has to be a yellow face, I'll put one out there that is blue. GC.COM is not the authority, they are a listing service... They really don't want to get into the policing game.. I've seen them post that viewpoint on several occasions.

 

Caches placed in Amish areas of pennsylvania are probably going to get policed differently by the community than caches places in the red light district of Amsterdam.. It's not GC.COM that determines what's appropriate... It's the community.

 

 

If you'll excuse me, I have to use a forked stick to divine my way to a local park with my four year old.

 

I'll be back to discuss the question behind the answer 42 later.

 

I've got Christmas shopping that I'm now about 2 hours behind on, so this is the perfect opportunity to git while the gittin's good.

 

Be back later!

[+ReadyOrNot]

I think adding it to the TB changed the TB from it's original factory condition. Me removing it restored it to what it was before. Which of the actions altered the TB? Mr. Anonymous adding the item or me removing it? If you ask the owner, it would be clear... <---- (It's funny how something becomes very clear when you write it yourself)...

 

OK - Perhaps asking the owner to be 100% sure before removing something is not a bad idea..... If I am so sure that the owner would have wanted it removed, then what's the harm in asking??

 

I still think that the community should police itself... and TB owners should be notified before any modifications to their TB's (that's the smallest font size????)

I think both actions altered the Noid TB. Someone altered the TB, and later you altered it again. Did either of these have the owners permission?

 

Are you saying you did notify the owner before modifying their travelbug???

This seems slightly different from what you've in posts further up this thread

 

That was me seeing the error of my ways and admitting that I should have notified the owner of the TB. I know.. Someone changing their opinions doesn't occur very often, but hey.. Why not..

 

REALLY.. LEAVING NOW!!

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+Snoogans]

I'll be back to discuss the question behind the answer 42 later.

 

Dude, in the case of THAT question, later could be 7 million years.

[+BlueDeuce]

It's not GC.COM that determines what's appropriate... It's the community.

 

Oh just to add...

 

Right now you think you are arguing with the community.

 

One day you might do something that gc.com takes action against. Your 'the community decides' ain't gonna hold much weight.

[+Snoogans]

That was me seeing the error of my ways and admitting that I should have notified the owner of the TB. I know.. Someone changing their opinions doesn't occur very often, but hey.. Why not..

 

REALLY.. LEAVING NOW!!

 

Awwwwww *hugs*

[+VeryLost]

Wow.. i thought my admission of wrong doing would have ended this

 

I didn't see an admission of wrong-doing. I saw this: "I just happen to admit to it because I am not ashamed of what I did. And personally, I don't mind that some of you think that what I did was wrong". That comes across a lot more like a defiant statement of pride. Perhaps I missed the admission that you were wrong in a later post. If that's the case, I apologize.

 

but you had to get one last flame in there huh?

 

Seriously, no. It was not intended as a flame, but as an honest statement of my personal reaction.

 

Here you are telling me that my actions are repugnant. That is just as judgmental as anything I said.

 

Not quite. The difference is this: If our situations were reversed, and I came across a TB with a Christian themed hitchhiker on it, I would not be offended, nor would I take it upon myself to remove it because it was inappropriate. Or to put it another way, you took an action, while I merely responded to that action with words.

 

Are you saying that a cross and a wiccan symbol are the same?

 

Not at all. I am saying they are equally valid symbols and deserving of equal respect and treatment.

[+Snoogans]

Just an OT observation, but is this a record for a religious themed thread to go this far without a lock?

[+Renegade Knight]

...Folks need to remember that this is supposed to be a light and fun sport. Pushing a personal agenda or belief doesn't mesh well with that concept. When things get too serious, then it's time to back up and reevaluate.

In a world of true tolerance (and that does't mean likeing the other view merely tolerating it) and a live and left live philosopy this would be easy enough.

 

People wouldn't rage at having a view expressed in their vicinity because they would recognize that every time they spoke they too were expressing their view on the topic at hand as influenced by the driving factors in their life.

 

People can't be separated from their core values, nor should they be asked to be, let alone censored. Alas it's not the guy who leaves a tract that is causing the issue. It's the guy taking exception to it and ranting and raving all the while not realizing his ranting is a view and an agena that is no better or worse than the one he's talking about.

 

Edit: I take that back. It is worse because it's an effort to squelch the other person and their fundamental right to be who they are. It's petty and vindictive. If they both left tracks that would be the same. One saying "There is only one way" and the other saying "Ban all tracts!"

Edited November 24, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

...That was me seeing the error of my ways and admitting that I should have notified the owner of the TB. I know.. Someone changing their opinions doesn't occur very often, but hey.. Why not..

 

REALLY.. LEAVING NOW!!

It happens to the best of us. It helps having the right...er.... same opinion to begin with. If we all held that opinion though...there would be no disagreement.

[+Snoogans]

People can't be separated from their core values, nor should they be asked to be, let alone censored. Alas it's not the guy who leaves a tract that is causing the issue. It's the guy taking exception to it and ranting and raving all the while not realizing his ranting is a view and an agena that is no better or worse than the one he's talking about.

 

Edit: I take that back. It is worse because it's an effort to squelch the other person and their fundamental right to be who they are. It's petty and vindictive. If they both left tracks that would be the same. One saying "There is only one way" and the other saying "Ban all tracts!"

 

I tend to leave religious tracts alone unless I find something kitchy or collectable about them. I have an interesting little collection of "Hater of God" tracts left on my car mostly in Las Vegas. My car sports a Darwin Fish therefore I must hate God. Riiiiight.

 

While out on a maintenance caching run one day, I found 4 of the exact same religious tract in one of my caches. I left 'em. In the very next cache there were over 50 of that exact same tract. Even though the cache wasn't mine, I was replacing some swag (empty cache except for the tracts and old log book) and adding a fresh log book until the inactive owner returned and I removed all but 2 of the tracts.

 

Working closely with Muslims for nearly 20 years has given me an understanding/appreciation for the value placed upon printed religious matter, so I couldn't bring myself to trash 'em. Instead, I gave them all to the next Jehova's Witness to knock on my door after accepting one of their tracts in return of course. First I asked them to promise to take something back to their Kingdom Hall for me. After they did I handed them the stack of tracts. The look on those two ladie's faces was priceless. They never tried to give 'em back though.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Snoogans

[+Wayfinders]

I see the pandora's box I wrote of earlier is WIDE open.

And I knew it's effects would be in these forums....not on the ground itself.

Time to separate Church, cache and State.

In it for the fun folks. In it for the exercise. In it for the same reasons that all people from

all aspects and directions of life are. Because we love doing it.

 

When you come up to GZ after a decent hike....are you thinking of next Wednesdays deadline?

Are you thinking if you have enough gas money for the week? Are you thinking of Catholicism

or Judaism?

 

No. You're not. You're on an adventure......may sound silly, but you are.

That's why you do it.

And when you find it, there's that wonderful feeling of accomplishment....you smile.

...Or you DNF.....but that’s another topic, now isn’t it.....??

 

What's in the ammo box??....not sure if that’s what really matters.....unless it's a coin or a travel bug sent out a long time ago come home....

 

Are we really thinking about political or religious arguments as we put boot in front of boot?

Sheez, I hope not.....because you're not getting out of it what I do.

[FlagFinder]

i have a cache on church grounds i would say its ok and if the church your talking about is very old its probubly a bench mark look it up. the items are ok they dont have to take them if they dont want to. ive seen religious items placed in caches if you dont want it dont take it.

[+USN Radio Chief]

Wow! I opened or reopened a can of wiggly worm. Thanks to everyone who provided input to this post a few weeks ago. It's neat to see how discussions morph and branch out to everything under the sun from Religious Themed Caches to Sweet Potato Pie Recipes to mutilated TB's. Here is what I have decided to post. I still like the location for this cache, it is historical and picturesque. Here is the quote from the cache page.....

 

"Park in the lot behind the church. Please be respectful of this church, cemetery, and grounds -- especially if services are going on.

 

This beautiful country Church simply commands attention. Cover the Church and the nearby cemetery with snow, and you would have a picturesque Christmas card right out 19th century Germany. Located in the community of New Dixie, Arkansas on Hwy 60 about 8 miles southwest of Toad Suck.

 

The church was organized by a few German families and built around the turn of the century, on 40 acres of land donated or sold cheaply, by the Choctaw Railroad now known as the Rock Island Lines. The railroad provided the lumber needed to build the church. Recently celebrating its 100 year centennial, it is one of the few remaining original structures in the New Dixie community. The parish is known across the region for hosting outstanding BBQ Brisket Dinners and Spaghetti Suppers as well as the annual Bazaar, which are attended by the entire community and persons of all faiths.

 

Local families donated the leaded glass windows imported from their German homeland. The inside has beautiful old-world style, hand carved wood workings. The church still has the old communion rail; a feature that has been omitted from modern Catholic Churches. Its simplicity makes it one the most beautiful churches in Arkansas.

 

The cemetery has some old and historical graves dating back to the 1800's and contains many of the first settlers of Perry County. Take a minute to stroll around here and say hi. I’m sure these folks would like to have a few visitors.

 

The cache, an ammo can, is located in the woods just south of the cemetery. Please note that the cache does contain a few catholic oriented items, but it also has the normal trade swag. This cache isn't designed to convert anyone to any faith, just wanted people to see this beautiful church and learn a little bit about the history of New Dixie."

 

If the moderators disapprove it, fine. I will rework it and try a different approach. (And yes the church is also a bench mark.) Again thanks for all your inputs, but I think it is time to let this topic sink into oblivion. We have literally beaten this horse to death.

Edited December 9, 2006 by navycrackerjack

[+Snoogans]

Wow! I opened or reopened a can of wiggly worm. Thanks to everyone who provided input to this post a few weeks ago. It's neat to see how discussions morph and branch out to everything under the sun from Religious Themed Caches to Sweet Potato Pie Recipes to mutilated TB's. Here is what I have decided to post. I still like the location for this cache, it is historical and picturesque. Here is the quote from the cache page.....

 

snip

 

The cache, an ammo can, is located in the woods just south of the cemetery. Please note that the cache does contain a few catholic oriented items, but it also has the normal trade swag. This cache isn't designed to convert anyone to any faith, just wanted people to see this beautiful church and learn a little bit about the history of New Dixie."

 

If the moderators disapprove it, fine. I will rework it and try a different approach. (And yes the church is also a bench mark.) Again thanks for all your inputs, but I think it is time to let this topic sink into oblivion. We have literally beaten this horse to death.

 

It was a fun thread. It stayed very civil considering the nature of what was being discussed.

 

I think the cache should be approved with the minor change in swag choices and the fact that you're pointing out history and not telling folks they need to join any particular church. I see no agenda in that.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Coming to this topic so late in the game I feel off-topic by being on-topic. If you want a religion-promoting cache try looking at this one for some flavor, and yes, he is trying to promote his beliefs. Do I care? Heck, no! Do I share his beliefs? Absolutely the heck not! It was a fun find.

 

In my first cache I did place mostly things purchased at a Christian book store. I figured, if I'm going to put up the money, then it might as well be stuff I like. I tried to keep it neutral, to be fair, but I just can't push myself to buy stuff I have no appreciation for. No one has to take anything from my cache. I'm not there to glare at you if you don't. That's about as far from shoving my beliefs down your throat as I can get without renouncing my religion. What I don't get is why people are afraid of religion-themed caches. I could enjoy finding a Jewish-themed cache, though I'm not Jewish. I would avoid an Evolution-themed cache, but I wouldn't protest its existence; it's just that I've already been bombarded by it for so long that it bores me.

 

[The lack of respect many self-proclaimed Christians show for other faiths is one of the key things that drove me away from Christianity.

That's irrational. Understandable, but irrational. If what Christians or anyone else believes is true or false, then whether or not you like their actions is irrelevant to whether or not you should accept the belief. Evolutionists generally do not promote widespread warfare, though their beliefs would seem to indicate that that would be the best thing to do, by promoting Natural Selection. Though I'm quite glad that they don't promote war, that doesn't make me want to believe in Evolution. It's irrelevant. Great, now I'm off-topic like everyone else.

Edited December 10, 2006 by nonaeroterraqueous

[+Ambrosia]

I think the community will police itself.

 

In a way, then, that is precisely what is happening here. Members of the community think your removal of a "Wiccan" item (and I put that in quotes because I have trouble believing it was Wiccan based on your description) was inappropriate, and are making sure you know that.

 

You have made it clear that you removed it because you perceived its religious intent as differing from your own inflexible dogma. By saying "there is a difference between a cross and a wiccan symbol", you removed all doubt - you're not interested in the community, or even what is appropriate or not, but rather in merely foisting your subjective viewpoint upon the rest of us.

 

I can see no way around it. Your action, and subsequent attempts to justify it, are repugnant.

The few people in this thread are not "The members of the community". They are a few members of the community, and a very small few.

 

Perhaps others are staying out of the conversation because the main posters in here are so strong in their beliefs and so the others don't feel like posting. It does not necessarily mean that the whole community believes the same things.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Perhaps others are staying out of the conversation because the main posters in here are so strong in their beliefs and so the others don't feel like posting.

 

Perhaps they're all asleep by now

[saopaulo1@hotmail.com]

As an atheist, I wouldnt care if a cache had a cross in it or sacred beads. A cache isnt going to change my view of religion.

[+Mopar]

*Yawn*

 

This member of the community's only comment is that I think people who go around bumping old controversial threads for sport should be removed from the community (and maybe the gene pool).

[57chevy]

*Yawn*

 

This member of the community's only comment is that I think people who go around bumping old controversial threads for sport should be removed from the community (and maybe the gene pool).

 

HALLELUJAH

[57chevy]

=O)

Edited December 10, 2006 by 57chevy

[+Glenn]

When I see a cache full of completely secular trinkets I am deeply offended. I feel compelled to make the cache contents more representative of our society by adding religious trinkets.

[+VeryLost]

In a way, then, that is precisely what is happening here. Members of the community think your removal of a "Wiccan" item (and I put that in quotes because I have trouble believing it was Wiccan based on your description) was inappropriate, and are making sure you know that.

 

The few people in this thread are not "The members of the community". They are a few members of the community, and a very small few.

 

It is important when quoting to actually quote what was written. I did not say "The members...", I say "Members...". I did not attempt to portray those members as being all, or even a majority, of the community. You may now put your straw man away.

 

Perhaps others are staying out of the conversation because the main posters in here are so strong in their beliefs and so the others don't feel like posting. It does not necessarily mean that the whole community believes the same things.

 

Yes, perhaps. The observation is pointless, however, as it adds nothing that is not already quite apparent. I always assume that the reason someone doesn't participate in a thread is that they don't feel like doing so. The alternatives (e.g. someone is forcibly stopping them) are absurd.

[+VeryLost]

If you want a religion-promoting cache try looking at this one for some flavor, and yes, he is trying to promote his beliefs.

I have serious doubts on that point. It looks very much to me like a tongue-in-cheek bit of poking fun at some new age foolishness of the 70s. But then, one of the dangers of satire is that people often don't recognize it.

 

What I don't get is why people are afraid of religion-themed caches.

I don't really understand it either. If someone is so insecure in their faith that they feel threatened by alternative information in a cache, well, the cache is the least of their problems. That same notion applies to people who condemn evolution, or try to ban Harry Potter books, and so on. I can't imagine being so terribly afraid of a mere idea that they feel they have to try to banish it.

 

[The lack of respect many self-proclaimed Christians show for other faiths is one of the key things that drove me away from Christianity.

That's irrational. Understandable, but irrational. If what Christians or anyone else believes is true or false, then whether or not you like their actions is irrelevant to whether or not you should accept the belief.

It's not at all irrational. It highlighted for me the difference between what they profess to believe, and what they actually believe. As a youth, that realization made me step back and examine the entire concept, and upon scrutiny I found the whole thing fell apart like a house of cards.

[+Ambrosia]

In a way, then, that is precisely what is happening here. Members of the community think your removal of a "Wiccan" item (and I put that in quotes because I have trouble believing it was Wiccan based on your description) was inappropriate, and are making sure you know that.

 

The few people in this thread are not "The members of the community". They are a few members of the community, and a very small few.

 

It is important when quoting to actually quote what was written. I did not say "The members...", I say "Members...". I did not attempt to portray those members as being all, or even a majority, of the community. You may now put your straw man away.

 

Perhaps others are staying out of the conversation because the main posters in here are so strong in their beliefs and so the others don't feel like posting. It does not necessarily mean that the whole community believes the same things.

 

Yes, perhaps. The observation is pointless, however, as it adds nothing that is not already quite apparent. I always assume that the reason someone doesn't participate in a thread is that they don't feel like doing so. The alternatives (e.g. someone is forcibly stopping them) are absurd.

Thank you for reinforcing the reason why I have not been posting in this thread.

[+El Diablo]

Perhaps others are staying out of the conversation because the main posters in here are so strong in their beliefs and so the others don't feel like posting. It does not necessarily mean that the whole community believes the same things.

 

Never stopped me before. The problem is that the minority has managed to gain controll of the majority, which is afraid to offend the minority due to political correctness.

 

El Diablo

[+VeryLost]

Thank you for reinforcing the reason why I have not been posting in this thread.

 

You're so very welcome. But by all means, if you do come up with a meaningful comment, know that you're more than welcome to post it.

[+BlueDeuce]

Thank you for reinforcing the reason why I have not been posting in this thread.

 

You're so very welcome. But by all means, if you do come up with a meaningful comment, know that you're more than welcome to post it.

 

So "Die, thread Die!" or "OMG I can't believe this is still going on!" isn't meaningful?

 

I swear that such posts are sincere and heartfelt as humanly possible.

[+VeryLost]

So "Die, thread Die!" or "OMG I can't believe this is still going on!" isn't meaningful?

I swear that such posts are sincere and heartfelt as humanly possible.

 

Setting aside the irony of posting a message to a thread for the sole purpose of complaining that people are still posting messages to the thread, no one is forcing you to read it.

[+BlueDeuce]

The best response is to stay on topic. Taking a shot at somebody to "come up with a meaningful comment" generally opens you up to see if you are as pure as you are asking others to be.

Edited December 11, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+CYBret]

The best response is to stay on topic. Taking a shot at somebody to "come up with a meaningful comment" generally opens you up to see if you are as pure as you are asking others to be.

 

Excellent point! Let's try to do that, please.

 

Bret

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I have serious doubts on that point. It looks very much to me like a tongue-in-cheek bit of poking fun at some new age foolishness of the 70s. But then, one of the dangers of satire is that people often don't recognize it.

That's what I thought, too, at first, especially after someone posted a humorous note in the logs. However, when the cache owner posted a note in defense I began to wonder. All I know is that the person who placed it is somewhat eccentric, and that the local cache-finding wizard who actually knows him hasn't looked for it yet, which seems unusual. Normally it should have more finds than this by now, for our area, so I'm wondering if other people are scratching their heads.

 

As for your comment about certain people not living what they claim to believe, I have to think you've focused your attention on a single group unjustly. That you haven't noticed that humanity, the world over, lends itself to be deserving of such criticism shows that you harbor mere prejudice. I can hardly believe that you succeed any better in living up to your own values, unless your values are really so low as that. Read my signature line. Yes, I am quite cynical.

[+VeryLost]

That's what I thought, too, at first, especially after someone posted a humorous note in the logs. However, when the cache owner posted a note in defense I began to wonder. All I know is that the person who placed it is somewhat eccentric, and that the local cache-finding wizard who actually knows him hasn't looked for it yet, which seems unusual. Normally it should have more finds than this by now, for our area, so I'm wondering if other people are scratching their heads.

 

I suspect you're reading far too much into it, especially since you yourself have found the cache. It's only been published for four days, after all, and there are umpteen reasons any given cacher may not have looked for it, the upcoming holiday season not the least among them. But even if he his trying to promote his beliefs, well, so what?

 

As for your comment about certain people not living what they claim to believe, I have to think you've focused your attention on a single group unjustly. That you haven't noticed that humanity, the world over, lends itself to be deserving of such criticism shows that you harbor mere prejudice.

 

You are making a faulty assumption regarding what I have or haven't noticed about the world at large. I discussed that single group because it related to the thread, and because I had experience with and thoughts about that group that I felt were relevant. I have thoughts about cigar rollers, baseball players, taxi drivers and longshoremen, too, but since they weren't relevant to the discussion, I didn't feel there was a need to mention them.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

But even if he his trying to promote his beliefs, well, so what?

My point, exactly. He isn't hurting anyone.

You are making a faulty assumption regarding what I have or haven't noticed about the world at large. I discussed that single group because it related to the thread, and because I had experience with and thoughts about that group that I felt were relevant.

Let's see...

The lack of respect many self-proclaimed Christians show for other faiths is one of the key things that drove me away from Christianity.

Okay, it looks like I have digressed a bit. Let's put it in a nutshell, shall we:

 

I respect your right to hold your own beliefs and to act accordingly. Specifically, I respect your right to be dead-wrong. However, I see no reason to respect a dead-wrong belief, just the right to have one. If I don't respect alternative views as though they were on par with my own, then does that really mean that I am uncertain of my own beliefs? Hardly. Respect of other beliefs means not ridiculing them or otherwise attempting to force them to conform. But then, I've seen that behavior from people of all backgrounds, so I clearly see a bias on your part to relate it specifically to Christians in particular. Even so, like I said, if the idea has any merit, then it stands or falls on its own merit regardless of the actions of those who hold that idea. As much as I hate agreeing with a jerk, if he's right then he's right. If not, then oh well.

[+Renegade Knight]

....The lack of respect many self-proclaimed Christians show for other faiths is one of the key things that drove me away from Christianity. ...

It's not at all irrational. It highlighted for me the difference between what they profess to believe, and what they actually believe. As a , that realization made me step back and examine the entire concept, and upon scrutiny I found the whole thing fell apart like a house of cards.

 

It's entirly possible to admit there is a higher standard and fail to live up to it, or even try all that hard. I've never met a christian who's professed belief and actual belief are different. I've met a lot of them who fail to live up to that belief for any number of reasons most of which involve being human. I've met a lot of other people who fail in all the same ways and who lack a higher standard to even look up to. As I've gotten older I've come to appreciate the difference. It's a lot like falling off the horse. Some get back on however many times it's going to take, and some say it's a stupid horse.

 

As for a lack of respect of one faith for another, why wouold you respect another faith? You respect the people, you respect their faith because they hold it, but you only tolerate their religion and hope that they will come around to yours. Athiests I've met really don't have much respect for any faith at a higher rate than christians. You only get three choices. Faith, Athiest, Undecided. If you don't pick one, one picks you.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+VeryLost]

Moderator has publicly requested we adhere to the topic. I'm ending my participation in this discussion. Anyone who wants to continue is invited to take it to private messages, where I'll be more than happy to explain why I'm right and you're wrong

[+Renegade Knight]

Moderator has publicly requested we adhere to the topic. I'm ending my participation in this discussion. Anyone who wants to continue is invited to take it to private messages, where I'll be more than happy to explain why I'm right and you're wrong

 

The point of a public debate isn't normally so the debaters will change their minds, odds are they won't. It's for the folks reading who may be on the cusp.

 

As a general rule I've found that most people who debate religion, athiesm, agnoticism seldom understand the basics of their own beliefs are built on, let alone the others. It's generally true of all 3. Becuase of that an honest and good debate is seldom possible as dogma creeps in.

 

However point taken about the thread needing to focus on the OT.

 

Edit: Typo's abound...oh well.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+cimawr]

 

Again... This was not a wicca TB. The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca.

 

And again, that's irrelevant as to whether your actions were appropriate (nor to the question of whether you practice religious persecution), as you've QUITE clearly stated that you would NOT have removed the item if it had been a cross... and ducked the question as to whether you would have removed a Star of David.

[+ReadyOrNot]

 

Again... This was not a wicca TB. The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca.

 

And again, that's irrelevant as to whether your actions were appropriate (nor to the question of whether you practice religious persecution), as you've QUITE clearly stated that you would NOT have removed the item if it had been a cross... and ducked the question as to whether you would have removed a Star of David.

 

Is this what I'm doing today? Guess so... Let me make it absolutely crystal clear for you. I'm not one of these people that skirts around my beliefs. I am what I am and I am not ashamed of that. Would I remove a wiccan item, yes. Would I remove the star of David, no.. Is that ducking? I'm not quite sure if this is in the realm of religious persecution. Yes, I believe that my religion is right. The interesting thing about Christianity is that in order to believe Christianity, you must believe that other religions are wrong. You can't have it both ways. I'm not going to run around telling everyone they are wrong though, because that really accomplishes nothing, but since YOU brought it up.... If a Christian tells you that all religions are equally correct and all paths lead to God, then they aren't really following the rules. Does this make Christianity bad? If you don't believe it, I guess it can be construed as a bit one-pathed, one-sided, but that's just the nature of religion isn't it.

 

I'm sorry.. What exactly was the point of your post again? I think you just want to make sure this topic is closed once and for all

[+ReadyOrNot]

As for a lack of respect of one faith for another, why wouold you respect another faith? You respect the people, you respect their faith because they hold it, but you only tolerate their religion and hope that they will come around to yours. Athiests I've met really don't have much respect for any faith at a higher rate than christians. You only get three choices. Faith, Athiest, Undecided. If you don't pick one, one picks you.

 

So true... I'm not sure that "Undecided" is a choice though.. More of a lack of choice.