Religion Themed Caches

[+BlueDeuce]

Let's at least be honest about what Christianity is and what it isn't...

 

Taking bets on thread lock.

[+ReadyOrNot]

That's the part that has bothered me since I first ran across his post publicizing what he'd done. I don't recall seeing a direct answer to the question "Had it been a cross instead of a 'Wiccan' item, would you have removed it?" As you can imagine, I have my suspicions on that point.

 

I was faced with this last weekend when several of the caches I found contained a little "Are you saved" pamphlet/booklet. Were I to use ReadOrNot's behavior as a guideline I would have removed them as offensive. Instead, I settled for just rolling my eyes and chuckling - it's not like finding a moldy piece of paper in a bit of Tupperware in the woods is likely to change someone's religion.

 

I don't see anything wrong with taking the "Are you saved" item out of the cache, just put something else in. As far as the TB goes, if the owner of the TB created it for purpose "A" and someone attaches an item with purpose "B", then I don't see any problem removing the contraband, just as I have no problem removing stuff that I don't like from caches. I always replace them with better stuff, so I am just not seeing the problem..

 

There may be someone offended by me removing a wiccan item from a cache. If I hadn't done it, someone would have done it after me, guaranteed.. I just happen to admit to it because I am not ashamed of what I did. And personally, I don't mind that some of you think that what I did was wrong... That's what's so great about this country, I can do what I want and you can do what you want and we can discuss it.

 

God Bless America!

 

EDIT (To answer the question that I again didn't answer)

 

Q: Would I have removed it had it been a cross

A: Of course not. To me, there is a difference between a cross and a wiccan symbol. Honestly, I would not have removed it if it was part of the original TB. I would have contacted the owner (I have done this in the past). Maybe I'll send an after-the-fact email to the owner and post his response in the forum???

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

As far as the TB goes, if the owner of the TB created it for purpose "A" and someone attaches an item with purpose "B", then I don't see any problem removing the contraband, just as I have no problem removing stuff that I don't like from caches.

 

Do not add or remove anything from a TB without the owners permission.

 

Some people may add things without permission but it is not your job to decide what was added should be removed. Ask first.

 

A recent email conversation I had.

 

Hi!

I picked up your TB Peanut Butter Bob & Suzanne Jam. Everybody is fine and currently enjoying a photo shoot with my caching daughter cmilk.

 

A cacher added a little 1x2 laminated tag to the chain stating that the bug had been to cache #GCR206 "Tour of Duty". I was curious if you wanted the tag to remain attached to the bug or removed.

 

Thanks,

 

--

<snip>

thanks for notifying me. After skimming the cache page, I am quite honored to have the tag added to this TBs traveling baggage, and will make it a point to read it in more detail as soon as possible. Thanks for checking, and thanks for the promised photo shoot!

 

Have a blessed day. Happy caching ~~

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+ReadyOrNot]

Do not add or remove anything from a TB without the owners permission.

 

I can appreciate your point, but I also think that it depends on what is attached. I think everyone can agree that your example was fairly neutral. Had it been something attached that was racist in nature, would you remove it? or would you ask first? What if it was something dangerous? would you remove it, or ask first? In my opinion, what was attached was dangerous.. Just my opinion of course..

 

So I agree with your statement above in most cases, but not all..

[+BlueDeuce]

Do not add or remove anything from a TB without the owners permission.

 

I can appreciate your point, but I also think that it depends on what is attached. I think everyone can agree that your example was fairly neutral. Had it been something attached that was racist in nature, would you remove it? or would you ask first? What if it was something dangerous? would you remove it, or ask first? In my opinion, what was attached was dangerous.. Just my opinion of course..

 

So I agree with your statement above in most cases, but not all..

 

Wrong.

 

If it is offensive by gc.com standards then gc.com should be notified. (Such as the hand-grenade TB). If in doubt ask gc.com.

 

Anything else is not your business to decide.

 

If it meets gc.com guidelines then you better not mess with my TBs.

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+Snoogans]

Let's at least be honest about what Christianity is and what it isn't...

 

Taking bets on thread lock.

 

I'll back up your action. The reason the guideline is a good/soundly logical one has just been established.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Wrong.

 

If it is offensive by gc.com standards then gc.com should be notified. (Such as the hand-grenade TB). If in doubt ask gc.com/

 

Anything else is not you business to decide.

 

Well, if there is a live hand-grenade in a box in the woods, GC.com would be the last ones I'd notify.. The bomb squad would probably be coming out. What about a pocket knife? You never answered about the racist material or pornographic material? What about those? Contact GC.com first and wait, so a child can come across it?

 

This is not a black and white issue as you are making it out to be.. So I guess I disagree with your "WRONG" assertion. As persuasive as that is, I just have to disagree.

[+Snoogans]

If it meets gc.com guidelines then you better not mess with my TBs.

 

Yep, what he said.

 

It's like we were separated a birth.

[+ReadyOrNot]

If it meets gc.com guidelines then you better not mess with my TBs.

 

Yep, what he said.

 

It's like we were separated a birth.

 

Okay.. Back to the topic (thank Goodness) --- One could argue that placing a wiccan item on a TB pushes an agenda, just as the religious themed cache pushes the "Catholic" agenda.. Does your argument work both ways, or just the way that benefits your argument?

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

Wrong.

 

If it is offensive by gc.com standards then gc.com should be notified. (Such as the hand-grenade TB). If in doubt ask gc.com/

 

Anything else is not you business to decide.

 

Well, if there is a live hand-grenade in a box in the woods, GC.com would be the last ones I'd notify.. The bomb squad would probably be coming out. What about a pocket knife? You never answered about the racist material or pornographic material? What about those? Contact GC.com first and wait, so a child can come across it?

 

This is not a black and white issue as you are making it out to be.. So I guess I disagree with your "WRONG" assertion. As persuasive as that is, I just have to disagree.

 

"This is not a black and white issue as you are making it out to be"

 

Actually it is. You just don't get to decide the color grade.

 

racist, pornographic, hand-grenade TBss are reported to gc.com and they will make sure it doesn't happen again. If they agree then you can toss it in the trash.

[+BlueDeuce]

If it meets gc.com guidelines then you better not mess with my TBs.

 

Yep, what he said.

 

It's like we were separated a birth.

 

If someone messes with my TBs, I have a bruiser TB that will go to their house and bust their keyboard.

[+ReadyOrNot]

"This is not a black and white issue as you are making it out to be"

 

Actually it is. You just don't get to decide the color grade.

 

racist, pornographic, hand-grenade TBss are reported to gc.com and they will make sure it doesn't happen again. If they agree then you can toss it in the trash.

 

Let's agree to disagree then.

[+BlueDeuce]

"This is not a black and white issue as you are making it out to be"

 

Actually it is. You just don't get to decide the color grade.

 

racist, pornographic, hand-grenade TBss are reported to gc.com and they will make sure it doesn't happen again. If they agree then you can toss it in the trash.

 

Let's agree to disagree then.

 

No thanks.

[+ReadyOrNot]

"This is not a black and white issue as you are making it out to be"

 

Actually it is. You just don't get to decide the color grade.

 

racist, pornographic, hand-grenade TBss are reported to gc.com and they will make sure it doesn't happen again. If they agree then you can toss it in the trash.

 

Let's agree to disagree then.

 

No thanks.

 

Okay.. Maybe you can show me the guidelines that you have been quoting regarding TB's then? I looked around and could not find them.

[+BlueDeuce]

Okay.. Maybe you can show me the guidelines that you have been quoting regarding TB's then? I looked around and could not find them.

 

What is a Groundspeak Travel Bug?

 

Simply put, a Groundspeak Travel Bug is a trackable tag that you attach to an item.

 

---

 

What does a Travel Bug do?

 

It's really up to the owner of the bug to give it whatever task they desire.

 

------

 

and just for you.

 

What do I do if I find a Travel Bug?

 

Don't panic!

 

edit: Forgot link to FAQ

 

http://www.geocaching.com/track/travelbugfaq.aspx#general

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+ReadyOrNot]

Okay.. Maybe you can show me the guidelines that you have been quoting regarding TB's then? I looked around and could not find them.

 

What is a Groundspeak Travel Bug?

Simply put, a Groundspeak Travel Bug is a trackable tag that you attach to an item.

 

---

 

What does a Travel Bug do?

It's really up to the owner of the bug to give it whatever task they desire.

 

------

 

and just for you.

What do I do if I find a Travel Bug?

Don't panic!

 

I've re-read this several times and I am just not seeing the "Contact GC.com" part. Am I suppose to contact GC.com if there is dirt attached to it and I want to clean it up? or do I ask the owner, "Can I remove the dirt from your TB?" There are some things in this world that are black and white, but this just is not one of them.

 

So I can assume from this post that there are no specific guidelines set by GC.com?

 

EDIT- as far as panic, don't worry. I've moved quite a few bugs and the one is the only I've ever had issues with. No panic here, but thanks for your concern.

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

I have to assume you know when someone adds an items to a TB or it's page that is offensive, that the person should be reported to gc.com so they can prevent it from happening again.

 

If it's not offensive enough to be reported to gc.com then mind your own business.

 

if in doubt, ask gc.com.

[+Snoogans]

I've re-read this several times and I am just not seeing the "Contact GC.com" part. Am I suppose to contact GC.com if there is dirt attached to it and I want to clean it up? or do I ask the owner, "Can I remove the dirt from your TB?" There are some things in this world that are black and white, but this just is not one of them.

 

We're still relating to the item you removed and tossed right?

 

Are you now comparing someone else's sacredly held belief (Wicca) to dirt?

 

That's really obtuse.

Edited November 24, 2006 by Snoogans

[+Snoogans]

If it meets gc.com guidelines then you better not mess with my TBs.

 

Yep, what he said.

 

It's like we were separated a birth.

 

Okay.. Back to the topic (thank Goodness) --- One could argue that placing a wiccan item on a TB pushes an agenda, just as the religious themed cache pushes the "Catholic" agenda.. Does your argument work both ways, or just the way that benefits your argument?

 

TBs don't need approval. Caches do.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I've re-read this several times and I am just not seeing the "Contact GC.com" part. Am I suppose to contact GC.com if there is dirt attached to it and I want to clean it up? or do I ask the owner, "Can I remove the dirt from your TB?" There are some things in this world that are black and white, but this just is not one of them.

 

We're still relating to the item you removed and tossed right?

 

Are you now comparing someone else's sacredly held belief (Wicca) to dirt?

 

That's really obtuse.

 

Come on now.. Where in that post is the mention of wicca? It seems like you are purposing trying to create a problem here. The post is clearly about when to contact GC.com and when not to, not about wicca. Why don't you deal directly with the questions instead of trying to create personal attacks against me.. All this shows is that you both are starting to lose your argument and now you are resorting to personal attacks. Where art thou moderators?

[+VeryLost]

Q: Would I have removed it had it been a cross

A: Of course not. To me, there is a difference between a cross and a wiccan symbol.

 

Well, I certainly appreciate your honesty on this point.

 

All this shows is that you both are starting to lose your argument and now you are resorting to personal attacks

 

The other possibility is that they're trying to educate you somewhat about the fact that Wicca is a perfectly legitimate faith (not to mention legally recognized in the US), and deserves the same treatment and respect that you would insist on for your own religion. People pointing out your failing in this regard isn't a personal attack.

 

 

The lack of respect many self-proclaimed Christians show for other faiths is one of the key things that drove me away from Christianity.

Edited November 24, 2006 by VeryLost

[+BlueDeuce]

TBs don't need approval. Caches do.

 

That's true.

 

There are several rosary TBs out there.

 

If I released a Rosary or a Wicca TB and somebody didn't verify the ‘appropriateness’ before removing it from circulation, I think I would have would have pretty good grounds for a complaint against that person.

[+Snoogans]

I've re-read this several times and I am just not seeing the "Contact GC.com" part. Am I suppose to contact GC.com if there is dirt attached to it and I want to clean it up? or do I ask the owner, "Can I remove the dirt from your TB?" There are some things in this world that are black and white, but this just is not one of them.

 

We're still relating to the item you removed and tossed right?

 

Are you now comparing someone else's sacredly held belief (Wicca) to dirt?

 

That's really obtuse.

 

Come on now.. Where in that post is the mention of wicca? It seems like you are purposing trying to create a problem here. The post is clearly about when to contact GC.com and when not to, not about wicca. Why don't you deal directly with the questions instead of trying to create personal attacks against me.. All this shows is that you both are starting to lose your argument and now you are resorting to personal attacks. Where art thou moderators?

 

I was not attacking. I asked 2 valid questions. Let me correct my statement. "That would be really obtuse if you were." Forgive the assumption in light of earlier posts.

 

A symbol in and of itself doesn't represent an agenda.

 

Here's a TB religious symbol that does not push ANY agenda that I can see.

 

Would you be offended if a Wiccan, Jew, Muslim, or Pagan, tossed it.?

Edited November 24, 2006 by Snoogans

[+ReadyOrNot]

TBs don't need approval. Caches do.

 

That's true.

 

There are several rosary TBs out there.

 

If I released a Rosary or a Wicca TB and somebody didn't verify the ‘appropriateness’ before removing it from circulation, I think I would have would have pretty good grounds for a complaint against that person.

 

Again... This was not a wicca TB. The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove. Just as a pamphlet in the cache could be removed (as long as something was placed back in)...

 

The debate is whether it's appropriate to remove items deemed inappropriate from a cache.. I say YES as long as you put something in it's place.

[+BlueDeuce]

I've re-read this several times and I am just not seeing the "Contact GC.com" part. Am I suppose to contact GC.com if there is dirt attached to it and I want to clean it up? or do I ask the owner, "Can I remove the dirt from your TB?" There are some things in this world that are black and white, but this just is not one of them.

 

We're still relating to the item you removed and tossed right?

 

Are you now comparing someone else's sacredly held belief (Wicca) to dirt?

 

That's really obtuse.

 

Come on now.. Where in that post is the mention of wicca? It seems like you are purposing trying to create a problem here. The post is clearly about when to contact GC.com and when not to, not about wicca. Why don't you deal directly with the questions instead of trying to create personal attacks against me.. All this shows is that you both are starting to lose your argument and now you are resorting to personal attacks. Where art thou moderators?

 

I was not attacking. I asked 2 valid questions. Let me correct my statement. "That would be really obtuse if you were." Forgive the assumption in light of earlier posts.

 

A symbol in and of itself doesn't represent an agenda.

 

Here's a TB religious symbol that does not push ANY agenda that I can see.

 

Would you be offended if a Wiccan, Jew, Muslim, or Pagan, tossed it.?

 

The problem is that this person wants to use their personal mores and change someone elses TB without consulting the owner or gc.com.

 

getting waaayyyyy back on topic. the OP can work with gc.com to get their cache approved, if people have an issue with the trade items, well then they can trade out, as how it is supposed to work.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I've re-read this several times and I am just not seeing the "Contact GC.com" part. Am I suppose to contact GC.com if there is dirt attached to it and I want to clean it up? or do I ask the owner, "Can I remove the dirt from your TB?" There are some things in this world that are black and white, but this just is not one of them.

 

We're still relating to the item you removed and tossed right?

 

Are you now comparing someone else's sacredly held belief (Wicca) to dirt?

 

That's really obtuse.

 

Come on now.. Where in that post is the mention of wicca? It seems like you are purposing trying to create a problem here. The post is clearly about when to contact GC.com and when not to, not about wicca. Why don't you deal directly with the questions instead of trying to create personal attacks against me.. All this shows is that you both are starting to lose your argument and now you are resorting to personal attacks. Where art thou moderators?

 

I was not attacking. I asked 2 valid questions. Let me correct my statement. "That would be really obtuse if you were." Forgive the assumption in light of earlier posts.

 

A symbol in and of itself doesn't represent an agenda.

 

Here's a TB religious symbol that does not push ANY agenda that I can see.

 

Would you be offended if a Wiccan, Jew, Muslim, or Pagan, tossed it.?

 

I would not be offended. I wouldn't be surprised also. If the purpose of the TB were pagan,jew,muslin or pagan, I would probably not take it and move it along.. I'd leave it for someone else to move. But that's not the situation that I dealt with. Someone put the item on a TB that was not the Tb's purpose. It's no different then me putting a "Christian" flier into a cache. If someone takes it out and is offended by it, what does that have anything to do with the owner of the cache?

[+Snoogans]

TBs don't need approval. Caches do.

 

That's true.

 

There are several rosary TBs out there.

 

If I released a Rosary or a Wicca TB and somebody didn't verify the ‘appropriateness’ before removing it from circulation, I think I would have would have pretty good grounds for a complaint against that person.

 

Again... This was not a wicca TB. The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove. Just as a pamphlet in the cache could be removed (as long as something was placed back in)...

 

You do not own the TB. It's not your business to decide the purpose.

 

Don't ever remove a hitchhiker from one of MY tbs without asking me. I'm pretty sure most other TB owners would agree on this point.

[+BlueDeuce]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

[+ReadyOrNot]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

[+BlueDeuce]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

And while I'm at it, do you also remove items added to someone's Tb that aren't religious at all?

 

Because I'm pretty sure you have an agenda if you are targeting Wicca items.

 

edited for spelling (that's what happens when you type too fast.

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+BlueDeuce]

The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

again, says you.

 

At what point do you decide that the item is inappropriate by gc.com standards? before or after you verify? (since you can't seem to find the guidelines).

[+Snoogans]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

Again. You do not OWN the TB so YOU don't get to decide intent.

 

I noticed you mentioned NOTHING in the TB log to alert the owner to your action....

[+ReadyOrNot]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

And while I'm at it, do you also remove items added to someone's Tb that aren't religous at all?

 

Becuase I'm pretty sure you have an agenda if you are targeting Wicca items.

 

Everyone has an agenda. Everyone has likes and dislikes. There are some things in caches that I do not like. I have passed on many items because I did not agree with their "purpose". That doesn't mean that I remove everything that I find offensive (because I don't). This idea that everything is equal and everything has the same value is just not accurate. Clearly you put a lower value on Christianity or any religion than you do on your own beliefs. Clearly you put a higher value on your argument than you do on mine. I put a higher value on my argument than I do on yours. Is one of us right? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe we are both wrong.

 

I forgot my point.. Oh yeah: Yes, I have an agenda and so do you.

[+ReadyOrNot]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

Again. You do not OWN the TB so YOU don't get to decide intent.

 

I noticed you mentioned NOTHING in the TB log to alert the owner to your action....

 

I also don't see any mention by the owner of the TB that he misses the item that he didn't even know was on the TB. What's your point? AND: It's only by my admission that this issue was known. Had I not mentioned it in a post a long while back, NOBODY would have even known it was removed. I'm failing to see any harm done to the TB owner.

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+ReadyOrNot]

The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

again, says you.

 

At what point do you decide that the item is inappropriate by gc.com standards? before or after you verify? (since you can't seem to find the guidelines).

 

It's not by GC.com standards.. It's by my standards... I have every right to remove items from a cache that I deem inappropriate as long as I replace the item with an item of equal or better value. Does this apply to TB's??? I don't know because there are no guidelines regarding this. That's why we are having this discussion.. You continue to discuss this issue as if there are guidelines...

 

So, should superfluous items attached to TB be treated as litter, cache swag or an owner's property. Your assertion is that it's the owners property, but I don't think that makes any logical sense. That would leave the stuff to either be treated as litter or swag...

 

EDIT: Sorry about the multiple posts.. I can't keep up.. The responses are coming so fast and furious.

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

Clearly you put a lower value on Christianity or any religion than you do on your own beliefs.

 

pffft, you don't know me.

 

Clearly you put a higher value on your argument than you do on mine. I put a higher value on my argument than I do on yours. Is one of us right? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe we are both wrong.

 

You have no right to walk around deciding how people list caches or release travel bugs. If you don't like something, find out if gc.com agrees with you. Most people know when it doesn't meet social norms, that still doesn't mean you get to act on your own.

 

If you disagree with how gc.com views or handles a situation, then you can address it with them or choose not participate. But you don't get to decide what actions to take on your own. Somebody might take up your actions with gc.com.

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+Snoogans]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

Again. You do not OWN the TB so YOU don't get to decide intent.

 

I noticed you mentioned NOTHING in the TB log to alert the owner to your action....

 

I also don't see any mention by the owner of the TB that he misses the item that he didn't even know was on the TB. What's your point? AND: It's only by my admission that this issue was known. Had I not mentioned it in a post a long while back, NOBODY would have even known it was removed. I'm failing to see any harm done to the TB owner.

 

The issue isn't harm to the owner. (Where's the "duh" emoticon?)

 

The issues are tampering with an item that doesn't belong to you without the owners consent and religious persecution.

 

At least 3 people on this thread have stated their displeasure toward those actions taken by YOU.

 

We aren't lions in the coliseum. We are your peers and we disapprove. Insisting you're right won't change it. There's no grounds to agree to disagree. There's no need to defend yourself further. You've already stated you are perfectly fine with it.

Edited November 24, 2006 by Snoogans

[+ReadyOrNot]

Clearly you put a lower value on Christianity or any religion than you do on your own beliefs.

 

pffft, you don't know me.

 

Clearly you put a higher value on your argument than you do on mine. I put a higher value on my argument than I do on yours. Is one of us right? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe we are both wrong.

 

You have no right to walk around deciding how people list caches or release travel bugs. If you don't like something, find out if gc.com agrees with you. Most people know when it doesn't meet social norms, that still doesn't mean you get to act on your own. Work to stop what needs to be stopped by involving gc.com.

 

If you disagree with how gc.com views or handles a situation, then you can address it with them or choose not participate. But you don't get to decide what actions to take on your own. Somebody might take up your actions with gc.com.

 

And here we are back to the guidelines. What guideline did I break? I think the community will police itself. The majority of cachers do not agree with pornographic material, so if someone placed that material in a cache, I guarantee it would be gone very quickly... I don't think GC.COM wants to get involved in policing caches and the content within them.. That is our job as cachers to do. It's our job as cachers to ensure the integrity of this sport and the family nature of this sport. (Or hobby -- last thing I want to do is send this off on another tangent)

[+ReadyOrNot]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

Again. You do not OWN the TB so YOU don't get to decide intent.

 

I noticed you mentioned NOTHING in the TB log to alert the owner to your action....

 

I also don't see any mention by the owner of the TB that he misses the item that he didn't even know was on the TB. What's your point? AND: It's only by my admission that this issue was known. Had I not mentioned it in a post a long while back, NOBODY would have even known it was removed. I'm failing to see any harm done to the TB owner.

 

The issue isn't harm to the owner. (Where's the "duh" emoticon?)

 

The issues are tampering with an item that doesn't belong to you without the owners consent and religious persecution.

 

At least 3 people on this thread have stated their displeasure toward those actions taken by YOU.

 

We aren't lions in the coliseum. We are your peers and we disapprove. Insisting you're right won't change it. There's no grounds to agree to disagree. There's no need to defend yourself further. You've already stated you are perfectly fine with it.

There's no grounds to agree to disagree. There's no need to defend yourself further. You've already stated you are perfectly fine with it.

 

I agree, where is the DUH emoticon.. I didn't tamper with the owners item. The owner's item was left in tact and was not changed AT ALL. Please explain how I tampered with the owners property? That's like saying that removing trade items from a cache is somehow tampering with the cache itself. If I were to change the camo on the cache or alter the appearance, that would be tampering, but the items inside the cache are not the property of the cache owner, just as litter placed onto a TB after it's released is not the property of the TB owner (Not implying that wicca is litter, i'm referring to any item)

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

And here we are back to the guidelines. What guideline did I break? I think the community will police itself. The majority of cachers do not agree with pornographic material, so if someone placed that material in a cache, I guarantee it would be gone very quickly... I don't think GC.COM wants to get involved in policing caches and the content within them.. That is our job as cachers to do. It's our job as cachers to ensure the integrity of this sport and the family nature of this sport. (Or hobby -- last thing I want to do is send this off on another tangent)

 

okay, you are mixing inappropriate conduct with personal choice.

 

gc.com does want to know about pornographic material. You need to tell them. If you don't, it simply continues.

 

You've decided on your own they don’t want to be involved or have any say in the issue.

 

Trust me they do, even if it’s not posted on their website.

 

I'll say it again

 

Inappropriate? - contact gc.com

 

Not inappropriate? - mind your own business

 

In doubt? - Ask gc.com

 

I'll even add an extra item. Not inappropriate and someone decides on their own it is - contact gc.com

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+ReadyOrNot]

And here we are back to the guidelines. What guideline did I break? I think the community will police itself. The majority of cachers do not agree with pornographic material, so if someone placed that material in a cache, I guarantee it would be gone very quickly... I don't think GC.COM wants to get involved in policing caches and the content within them.. That is our job as cachers to do. It's our job as cachers to ensure the integrity of this sport and the family nature of this sport. (Or hobby -- last thing I want to do is send this off on another tangent)

 

okay, you are mixing inappropriate conduct with personal choice.

 

gc.com does want to know about pornographic material. You need to tell them. If you don't, it simply continues.

 

You've decided on your own they don’t want to be involved or have any say in the issue.

 

Trust me they do, even if it’s not posted on their website.

 

I'll say it again

 

Inappropriate? - contact gc.com

 

Not inappropriate? - mind your own business

 

In doubt? - Ask gc.com

 

Whether you like it or not, people will remove items that they deem inappropriate. The problem with people leaving stuff in caches is that they remain anonymous, especially if the items are inappropriate. What exactly do you think GC.com is going to do about it? If I wrote them and said, "I found some porno in a cache, what should I do?" They are going to respond with, "Remove it from the cache"... The only time I would consider contacting GC.com is if I knew who placed the inappropriate material in the cache, otherwise, what are they going to do?

 

If I come across porno in the cache, the LAST thing I would do is leave it in there for some kid to come across. Again, you are making this issue black and white and it really isn't. Your actions could actually do harm to someone if you left items in the cache. If I came across a pocket knife I would take it out.. Why? Because I know if my kids came across it, that would be the first thing they would play with (the dangerous stuff).. Leaving it in the cache is not an option in some situations.

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

Whether you like it or not, people will remove items that they deem inappropriate.

True. Doesn't make it right.

 

The problem with people leaving stuff in caches is that they remain anonymous, especially if the items are inappropriate. What exactly do you think GC.com is going to do about it? If I wrote them and said, "I found some porno in a cache, what should I do?" They are going to respond with, "Remove it from the cache"... The only time I would consider contacting GC.com is if I knew who placed the inappropriate material in the cache, otherwise, what are they going to do?

 

I've reported such activity and those people were banned. (true story). Although it's harder to prove when it's trade items.

 

When we are talking religious items attached to a travel bug, ask first. It's not your job to decide.

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+Snoogans]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

Again. You do not OWN the TB so YOU don't get to decide intent.

 

I noticed you mentioned NOTHING in the TB log to alert the owner to your action....

 

I also don't see any mention by the owner of the TB that he misses the item that he didn't even know was on the TB. What's your point? AND: It's only by my admission that this issue was known. Had I not mentioned it in a post a long while back, NOBODY would have even known it was removed. I'm failing to see any harm done to the TB owner.

 

The issue isn't harm to the owner. (Where's the "duh" emoticon?)

 

The issues are tampering with an item that doesn't belong to you without the owners consent and religious persecution.

 

At least 3 people on this thread have stated their displeasure toward those actions taken by YOU.

 

We aren't lions in the coliseum. We are your peers and we disapprove. Insisting you're right won't change it. There's no grounds to agree to disagree. There's no need to defend yourself further. You've already stated you are perfectly fine with it.

 

I agree, where is the DUH emoticon.. I didn't tamper with the owners item. The owner's item was left in tact and was not changed AT ALL. Please explain how I tampered with the owners property? That's like saying that removing trade items from a cache is somehow tampering with the cache itself. If I were to change the camo on the cache or alter the appearance, that would be tampering, but the items inside the cache are not the property of the cache owner, just as litter placed onto a TB after it's released is not the property of the TB owner (Not implying that wicca is litter, i'm referring to any item)

 

Keep on reaching. You might make a career in the NBA on reach alone.

 

The owner owns the tag and ANYTHING attached to it. If you didn't place the item there then YOU don't get to remove it without permission from the owner.

 

Ya lost me with the whole cache analogy, but keep on reaching.... I'm starting to become entertained.

 

Seriously though, you have nothing to prove to me. If you recall, I forgave you about 50 posts back. That doesn't mean I don't disapprove of or change anything about your action though.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Whether you like it or not, people will remove items that they deem inappropriate.

True. Doesn't make it right.

 

The problem with people leaving stuff in caches is that they remain anonymous, especially if the items are inappropriate. What exactly do you think GC.com is going to do about it? If I wrote them and said, "I found some porno in a cache, what should I do?" They are going to respond with, "Remove it from the cache"... The only time I would consider contacting GC.com is if I knew who placed the inappropriate material in the cache, otherwise, what are they going to do?

 

I've reported such activity and those people were banned. (true story). Although it's harder to prove when it's trade items.

 

When we are talking religious items attached to a travel bug, ask first. It's not your job to decide.

 

The problem is, most people who would put inappropriate material in a cache are going to remain anonymous. In your case, if you were able to identify them and get them banned, that's great! This is where we differ I suppose: I don't get my moral authority from GC.COM, so why would I confer with them in regard to what I deem morally objectionable? Don't get me wrong, I agree completely with you that if the owner of the TB had placed the item in question, then it would have been inappropriate for me to take the action I did. But in a situation where you have an objectionable item placed by an anonymous person (granted it was objectionable to me, maybe not you), i went ahead and removed it, treating it as if it was just another ordinary trade item, not belonging to the owner of the TB. (which honestly, it did not belong to the TB owner and I've already stated the evidence for that assertion)

[+emurock]

The purpose of the TB had nothing to do with wicca. Someone, after it's release, placed the item on the keychain. The item had nothing to do with the owner and therefore would not need the owners permission to remove.

 

says who, you?

 

You can change people's TBs all on your own and don't even have to answer to the owner?

 

Doesn't seem any worse than the item being removed.

 

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

Again. You do not OWN the TB so YOU don't get to decide intent.

 

I noticed you mentioned NOTHING in the TB log to alert the owner to your action....

 

I also don't see any mention by the owner of the TB that he misses the item that he didn't even know was on the TB. What's your point? AND: It's only by my admission that this issue was known. Had I not mentioned it in a post a long while back, NOBODY would have even known it was removed. I'm failing to see any harm done to the TB owner.

 

The issue isn't harm to the owner. (Where's the "duh" emoticon?)

 

The issues are tampering with an item that doesn't belong to you without the owners consent and religious persecution.

 

At least 3 people on this thread have stated their displeasure toward those actions taken by YOU.

 

We aren't lions in the coliseum. We are your peers and we disapprove. Insisting you're right won't change it. There's no grounds to agree to disagree. There's no need to defend yourself further. You've already stated you are perfectly fine with it.

 

I agree, where is the DUH emoticon.. I didn't tamper with the owners item. The owner's item was left in tact and was not changed AT ALL. Please explain how I tampered with the owners property? That's like saying that removing trade items from a cache is somehow tampering with the cache itself. If I were to change the camo on the cache or alter the appearance, that would be tampering, but the items inside the cache are not the property of the cache owner, just as litter placed onto a TB after it's released is not the property of the TB owner (Not implying that wicca is litter, i'm referring to any item)

 

Keep on reaching. You might make a career in the NBA on reach alone.

 

The owner owns the tag and ANYTHING attached to it. If you didn't place the item there then YOU don't get to remove it without permission from the owner.

 

Ya lost me with the whole cache analogy, but keep on reaching.... I'm starting to become entertained.

 

Seriously though, you have nothing to prove to me. If you recall, I forgave you about 50 posts back. That doesn't mean I don't disapprove of or change anything about your action though.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Keep on reaching. You might make a career in the NBA on reach alone.

 

The owner owns the tag and ANYTHING attached to it. If you didn't place the item there then YOU don't get to remove it without permission from the owner.

 

Ya lost me with the whole cache analogy, but keep on reaching.... I'm starting to become entertained.

 

Seriously though, you have nothing to prove to me. If you recall, I forgave you about 50 posts back. That doesn't mean I don't disapprove of or change anything about your action though.

 

Thank you for the forgiveness It's not a reach. The item was not placed by the owner and therefore does not belong to the owner. I think the big problem here is people attaching things to TB's without the owner's permission, not the removal of said items. Whoever placed the item onto the TB in the first place is the problem. They should have asked permission. The fact that they remained anonymous ought to speak volumes about their motives. At least I didn't remain anonymous in my actions. Do I at least get credit for that?

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+BlueDeuce]

The problem is, most people who would put inappropriate material in a cache are going to remain anonymous. In your case, if you were able to identify them and get them banned, that's great! This is where we differ I suppose: I don't get my moral authority from GC.COM, so why would I confer with them in regard to what I deem morally objectionable? Don't get me wrong, I agree completely with you that if the owner of the TB had placed the item in question, then it would have been inappropriate for me to take the action I did. But in a situation where you have an objectionable item placed by an anonymous person (granted it was objectionable to me, maybe not you), i went ahead and removed it, treating it as if it was just another ordinary trade item, not belonging to the owner of the TB. (which honestly, it did not belong to the TB owner and I've already stated the evidence for that assertion)

 

Okay,

 

Caches: If gc.com approves the 'theme' then mind your own business.

 

Travel bugs: If someone add an item to a travel bug, ask the owner before removing it.

 

You might not need moral authority from anyone but you are darn arrogant if you are messing with their bugs without asking.

 

Who said they wanted it removed? Apparently you decided it was you.

Edited November 24, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+ReadyOrNot]

Okay,

 

Caches: If gc.com approves the 'theme' then mind your own business.

 

Travel bugs: If someone add an item to a travel bug, ask the owner before removing it.

 

You might not need moral authority from anyone but you are darn arrogant if you messing with their bugs without asking.

 

Come on.. I thought we established that the TB was not messed with. Let's find a point to agree on so we can end this. I agree that noone should mess with someone else's TB. I did not mess with someone's TB. What's interesting about this TB is that his goal was to travel and return to the original location he started from. I was the one who placed him back at his original location. The owner of the TB got him back exactly as he had left (just a bit dirtied up and worn down). Ask the owner of the TB if he felt his TB was violated. Quit making the assertion that I messed with his TB, because that is not what happened.

 

The only person harmed was the person who violated the TB by placing something on it without the owners permission, but he/she remained anonymous, so they don't get to have a say in this debate. Noone has elaborated on how an item placed onto a TB without the owners knowledge and then having the item removed from the TB without the owner's knowledge in any way hurts the owner of the TB or alters the TB or it's purpose.

Edited November 24, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+welch]

The original TB was a little Domino's pizza guy and pictures of the TB at the start did not have the hitchhiker attached to it. Pictures of the guy in caches during his journey did not have the item attached.. So YES, I SAY SO. The item was placed onto the keychain at some point during his journey and had NOTHING to do with the original intent of the TB.

 

Again. You do not OWN the TB so YOU don't get to decide intent.

 

I noticed you mentioned NOTHING in the TB log to alert the owner to your action....

 

I also don't see any mention by the owner of the TB that he misses the item that he didn't even know was on the TB. What's your point? AND: It's only by my admission that this issue was known. Had I not mentioned it in a post a long while back, NOBODY would have even known it was removed. I'm failing to see any harm done to the TB owner.

 

So your action was so appropriate you did not feel the need to ask tell or meantion it to anyone, including the owner of the TB?

 

People really shouldn't be adding things to TBs unless directed to, but was removing it without direction much better???

[+BlueDeuce]

Okay,

 

Caches: If gc.com approves the 'theme' then mind your own business.

 

Travel bugs: If someone add an item to a travel bug, ask the owner before removing it.

 

You might not need moral authority from anyone but you are darn arrogant if you messing with their bugs without asking.

 

Come on.. I thought we established that the TB was not messed with. Let's find a point to agree on so we can end this. I agree that noone should mess with someone else's TB. I did not mess with someone's TB. What's interesting about this TB is that his goal was to travel and return to the original location he started from. I was the one who placed him back at his original location. The owner of the TB got him back exactly as he had left (just a bit dirtied up and worn down). Ask the owner of the TB if he felt his TB was violated. Quit making the assertion that I messed with his TB, because that is not what happened.

 

Do not add or remove anything from a travel bug without first asking permission.

 

'someone' adding does not give 'another' permission to remove.

 

Talk to the owner before making ANY changes.