There goes the tick repellant...

[+The Cheeseheads]

Walmart has decided that permethrin is too toxic of a substance and have decreed that it will no longer sell any products containing it. I doubt suppliers are going to want to lose shelf space in Walmart, so I can see them coming up with new formulas using something else in its place. I can also envision that once the change takes place, the replacement products will also find their way to non-Walmart stores as well.

 

I've always heard that DEET is nowhere near as effective against ticks that permethrin. Is there something else out there? Or will we be buying our repellent over the internet?

[+briansnat]

There are plenty of other stores out there.

[+SmartSapper]

There are plenty of other stores out there.

 

What? I have a choice? Wally world still has competition? But,, but wait,,, this means I'll to think for myself.....THE HORROR... the horror...

[Clan Riffster]

I've always heard that DEET is nowhere near as effective against ticks that permethrin.

I'm neither a chemist nor an entomologist, so don't quote me on this. I was told years ago that DEET acts as a repellent, whilst Permethrin is a contact poison which actually kills any ticks or chiggers that crawl on it. I've found this claim to be true in practice, through direct comparison of both products in woods infested with nasty blood suckers. The labels on Permethrin products all declare that it must not be sprayed on exposed skin, yet some folks do it any way. Permethrin is no more harmful than any other pesticide, as long as it's used properly. I'm surprised Wally World would bow to such foolishness.

[+Bad_CRC]

just FYI: you are saying that since Wal*mart (the company with the big heart) has determined that it's too dangerous to sell, you are going to buy it off the internet anyway and put it on yourself and possibly your family.

 

(just pointing it out in case you don't see that. )

[+The Cheeseheads]

There are plenty of other stores out there.

True, but Walmart is forcing companies to change their formulas to remove it altogether. Those changed formulas will make their way to other stores as well.

[+The Cheeseheads]

just FYI: you are saying that since Wal*mart (the company with the big heart) has determined that it's too dangerous to sell, you are going to buy it off the internet anyway and put it on yourself and possibly your family.

 

(just pointing it out in case you don't see that. )

That or Lyme disease.

 

Hmm... Maybe I'm just safer indoors...

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

just FYI: you are saying that since Wal*mart (the company with the big heart) has determined that it's too dangerous to sell, you are going to buy it off the internet anyway and put it on yourself and possibly your family.

 

(just pointing it out in case you don't see that. )

That or Lyme disease.

 

Hmm... Maybe I'm just safer indoors...

 

Permethrin can help you with indoor cooties too!

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I'm neither a chemist nor an entomologist, so don't quote me on this. I was told years ago that DEET acts as a repellent, whilst Permethrin is a contact poison which actually kills any ticks or chiggers that crawl on it. I've found this claim to be true in practice, through direct comparison of both products in woods infested with nasty blood suckers. The labels on Permethrin products all declare that it must not be sprayed on exposed skin, yet some folks do it any way. Permethrin is no more harmful than any other pesticide, as long as it's used properly. I'm surprised Wally World would bow to such foolishness.

This is absolutely correct. I might also add that Permethrin was introduced as a more environmentally friendly alternative to DDT (evil laughter). Now the politically correct poison is no longer politically correct. Pretty soon we'll only be able to use purified water nursed from the freshly formed dew in the trees of the Himalayas. Perhaps they're attempting to enhance natural selection?

[+pigpen4x4]

We as Americans have positioned Wal-Mart as the most powerful company in America.

And they know it. And they love it.

They throw their weight around at all levels.

From land acquisition, their vendors to their suppliers.

If you want to do business with Wally, do it their way by golly!

If they say "put micro chips in your packaging", you do it or lose your biggest account.

It's not like the stuff is going away.....................yet.

That will just be reason number 463 for ME not to visit WW.

PP

[+viking66]

Tell me again why you would apply this stuff to your skin directly?

Having had a run-in with DEET a few years back, I'd never apply something like that on my skin; or yours for that matter.

WalMart can keep shoveling as far as Im concerned; a quicker way to Hades for them I say. No dime of mine in their coffers.

[+the hermit crabs]

Tell me again why you would apply this stuff to your skin directly?

Having had a run-in with DEET a few years back, I'd never apply something like that on my skin; or yours for that matter.

 

Permethrin is not intended to be applied directly to the skin.

 

You spray it on your clothes, and let them completely dry before wearing them.

[+BlueDeuce]

I just picked up a couple mini bottles of Cutters - Picaridin 15%. (Supposedly won't hurt plastic like Deet).

 

Any opinion on effectiveness?

[+viking66]

Thanks for the update Hermit Carbs, I didnt really think that through. Ive not heard of Permethrin, but it sounds like it goes on clothes. Do you wash your treated garments separately?

[+the hermit crabs]

Thanks for the update Hermit Carbs, I didnt really think that through. Ive not heard of Permethrin, but it sounds like it goes on clothes. Do you wash your treated garments separately?

Yes, they get washed separately from other clothes, and with no fabric softener (it apparently renders the permethrin ineffective).

 

It's available in a few different strengths. I get the kind from Sawyer's that lasts six weeks (they also sell some that lasts only two weeks). I spray the clothes outside, on a non-windy day, wearing long sleeves and rubber gloves and goggles and a dust-mask.

 

There are some brands of clothing made with Permethrin-treated cloth. "Buzz Off" is one. It claims to be effective through 25 washings. But I find it a lot less expensive to just spray my own clothes.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

We as Americans have positioned Wal-Mart as the most powerful company in America.

And they know it. And they love it.

They throw their weight around at all levels.

From land acquisition, their vendors to their suppliers.

If you want to do business with Wally, do it their way by golly!

If they say "put micro chips in your packaging", you do it or lose your biggest account.

It's not like the stuff is going away.....................yet.

That will just be reason number 463 for ME not to visit WW.

PP

 

You devise a better business model.

Work for years to get it right.

Put a serious whuppin' on long-established well-entrenched 'role-models' of the industry.

Experience success beyond your wildest dreams.

Gain enough clout that you change the way the entire multi-billion-dollar retail industry works.

Become one of the largest employers in the nation.

Try to promote patriotism and nationalism (remember their early years Buy American business practices? It failed miserably because Americans could buy imports cheaper, and did, so WM had to drop it and climb on the off-shore wagon. Yep, we drove off-shore manufacturing by refusing to pay a bit more for American-made products, and we're still doing it!)

Offer employment, benefits and a fighting chance to many who might otherwise be unemployable.

Become one of the world's top philanthropists, supporting and giving to worthy causes to the tune of millions a year.

Gain enough clout that everyone HAS to do things your way (trust me, that's every business owner's dream, no entreprenuer WANTS competition!).

Improve working conditions for millions world-wide by attempting to hold your vendors to a higher standard.

Create more wealth, make more people millionaires, than any company in history.

Provide a one-stop shopping experience where you provide the most popular items, if not an in-depth inventory, at the best possible price (to prevent competition from rearing its ugly head!).

Spend millions on product acceptance, safety and marketing, and try to be environmentally sound in your choices, changing your product line when safer products can be found.

Allow traveling geocachers to use your parking lot for overnight parking.

Allow geocachers to hide caches on your property (tacit permission - they know about us and haven't stopped us).

 

Do all that and geocachers villify you and proclaim you evil?

 

How does that work?

 

As a geocacher WallyWorld is my best corporate friend!

 

My little town just bid $30 Million dollars in property development and tax-break enticements to get a Super-WalMart located here, and lost to a higher bid from a neighboring city!

 

No, they aren't perfect, but from a geocacher's perspective what more could we legitimately ask?

 

Ed

[+sbell111]

...No, they aren't perfect, but from a geocacher's perspective what more could we legitimately ask?

You are correct, of course, but I think it's important that we look at things from more than just 'a geocacher's prospective'.

[+SmartSapper]

We as Americans have positioned Wal-Mart as the most powerful company in America.

And they know it. And they love it.

They throw their weight around at all levels.

From land acquisition, their vendors to their suppliers.

If you want to do business with Wally, do it their way by golly!

If they say "put micro chips in your packaging", you do it or lose your biggest account.

It's not like the stuff is going away.....................yet.

That will just be reason number 463 for ME not to visit WW.

PP

 

I am forced to admit that I have shopped there in the past and will do so in the future. But it's important to me to do some research on the available choices out there. There's MORE than just WalMart, is my point. If you want to get a bunch of basic stuff without having to run around town, they're great. But we tend to choose convenience over reason too frequently as a culture to satisy this curmudgeon.

 

Tell me again why you would apply this stuff to your skin directly?

Having had a run-in with DEET a few years back, I'd never apply something like that on my skin; or yours for that matter.

 

Permethrin is not intended to be applied directly to the skin.

 

You spray it on your clothes, and let them completely dry before wearing them.

 

This is correct, and done properly, works. I spent 4 straight days in the woods of Missouri in permethrin treated BDUs. In July. Picked up zero ticks. That tells me it works.

 

And my mind sti ll woorrr ks jusapoia;vaoieangaoise.

Edited November 16, 2006 by SmartSapper

[+Maingray]

BlueDeuce, I started to use Picaridin as well at the tail end of this last summer (some spray-on Avon product containing it)...seemed to work completely fine, but it certainly seemed to last a shorter time compared to a DEET product. Seemed OK, but would need to spray more often. We got it as it apparently is less of an irritant than DEET, to which one of our kids reacts badly to.

[+GRANPA ALEX]

Here in NC, we have a thought . . . especially appropriate for the November season . . . kinda about ticks, it is related to the OP.

 

'Poli' from the Latin means many or multiple . . . tic(k) means a blood-sucking parasite - so, the repellant we really need is from 'poli-tics', does anyone have a can of that?

[CoyoteRed]

This is the first I'm hearing about permethrin being a hazard. Anyone have an authoritative source? The only thing I've found so far reads like dihydrogen monoxide warnings.

[Clan Riffster]

Anyone have an authoritative source?

Probably not authoritive, but my chosen brand of permethrin is Repel Permanone. The MSDS for Permanone shows that like most things in life, it can be harmful if you use it improperly.

http://co.st-lucie.fl.us/msq/fog/chemicals..._31_66_msds.pdf

I also found a "fact" sheet from the National Pesticide Telecommunications Network which indicates it's not as bad as folks make it seem.

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/permethrin.pdf

[CoyoteRed]

Yeah, I haven't found anything stating it's harmful to humans, pets, or the environment if used as a repellent on clothing. The reason for not putting it on skin, that I've read anyway, is because it deactivates the chemical making it ineffective. I'm sure massive amounts of the stuff sprayed directly on skin would have an effect, but so would just about anything improperly used.

 

I'm wondering where these folks who made this decision live. I'm thinking if they spend any time in the Deep South woods, or any parasite infested area for that matter, they'd feel differently.

[+BlueDeuce]

BlueDeuce, I started to use Picaridin as well at the tail end of this last summer (some spray-on Avon product containing it)...seemed to work completely fine, but it certainly seemed to last a shorter time compared to a DEET product. Seemed OK, but would need to spray more often. We got it as it apparently is less of an irritant than DEET, to which one of our kids reacts badly to.

 

Thanks.

[+Jhwk]

Yeah, I haven't found anything stating it's harmful to humans, pets, or the environment if used as a repellent on clothing. The reason for not putting it on skin, that I've read anyway, is because it deactivates the chemical making it ineffective. I'm sure massive amounts of the stuff sprayed directly on skin would have an effect, but so would just about anything improperly used.

 

I'm wondering where these folks who made this decision live. I'm thinking if they spend any time in the Deep South woods, or any parasite infested area for that matter, they'd feel differently.

Just some linkies

 

Here, here, and the DoD chimes in...

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Interesting DoD link...

 

Treat your uniform with the standard military clothing repellent

(permethrin). Use the IDA kit (NSN 6840-01-345-0237). This product is

a permethrin impregnation kit that contains 40-percent permethrin. One kit

treats one uniform, and the treatment lasts through approximately 50

washes (generally considered the combat life of the uniform). If the IDA

kit is not available, use the Aerosol Spray Can, NSN 6840-01-278-1336, 0.5-percent permethrin, one application of approximately

¾-can lasts through 5-6 washes. Treat your uniform PRIOR to deploying. Follow all label directions.

 

They provide a 40% solution yet depict three "commerial equivelants" that only contain 5%?

I suppose this item (the IDA kit) would be available through military surplus, but a brief Google search did not find it. Anyone know of a civilian source?

 

Apply a thin coat of the standard military skin repellent (DEET) to

all areas of exposed skin. Use NSN 6840-01-284-3982, 33% controlledrelease

DEET lotion, one application protects for up to 12 hours

depending on the climate. Follow label directions.

 

So we are advised to use both permethrin and DEET!

 

Wear your uniform properly; it acts as a physical barrier against

insects. Wear the sleeves rolled down. Close all openings in your

clothing that might provide access to insects: tuck pants into your boots,

and undershirt into your pants. Wear your uniform loosely, because

some insects, such as mosquitoes, can bite through fabric that is pulled

tight against the skin.

 

Pity the summertime soldier! I usually cache in shorts and a T-shirt!

 

These DEET and permethrin products are the most effective repellents available and they have proven safety records.

 

I wonder if there is a product that combines them?

And, to the point of the OP - if permethrin is safe why did WM change products?

 

Ed

[+Alan2]

quote name='the hermit crabs' date='Nov 16 2006, 11:16 AM' post='2570101']

...There are some brands of clothing made with Permethrin-treated cloth. "Buzz Off" is one. It claims to be effective through 25 washings. But I find it a lot less expensive to just spray my own clothes.

 

Here's me in my Buzz Off clothing. I've worn them through 15 washings and so far haven't seen any ticks. I picked the color to make them seen better too. Shirt and pants and note now the pants are tucked in geek like into the Buzz Off socks. I also have a Buzz Off hat but that's really geeky looking. (sorry, no pictures).

 

My dog has had Lyme, Rocky Mountain Spotted fever and recently he picked up something they couldn't even figure out what it was. He was on antibiotics for three months and nearly died. I was thinking of having a tailor cut him an outfit including socks from one of the Buzz Off shirts. That way we both can look geeky.

 

Edited November 19, 2006 by Alan2