Placement Permission

[+Renegade Knight]

...I agree 100%. And I make no bones about it. If we (and I do mean WE) don't get a handle on this issue Geocaching will become a bygone memory, or worse, a back alley activity that gets someone hurt. I love this sport. I love the comrauderie (sp?), not so much in here. I love seeing placed I would have never seen before and meeting people I have never met before. Can I do this on my own without caching? An honest answer is no.

 

I hear every week about a new cache blown up by the bomb squad. I cringe. I have moved to a new town in North Carolina that currently has no caches. I plan to meet with the police chief, the fire chief, and someone from the mayors office to educate them on Geocaching and what to expect and of the benifits to tourism and the like. I would really hate to be made to look like an idiot because a hide-happy cacher finds virgin ground to conquer. JMHBAO

 

Caches get blown up, not because of the permission they have but because of a combination of the inexperiende of the bomb crews (europe has more terrorism and less problems with caches) and the inexperience of cachers in placing caches. Not to mention that we have bomb squads because there are bombs, truckloads of terrorist training (mandatory for me now in my job) and Joe Citizen phoning in everthing he doesn't understand.

 

Today I heard about some honey and electronics in a checked bag shutting down an airport for over 3 hours. Oddly enough I don't think that honey or checked bag had explicit permssion to be there but I'll lay odds the owner had adequate permission.

[+Team Torque]

Odd, but you just made a point that works against you. The review process depends on the community (the hider) and the honor system as well as the reviewer. The caches that were archived, and are the reason for this sour-grapes thread about them, demonstrate a total breakdown of the honor system.

 

I could not have said it better myself.

[+erikwillke]

Nearly every land manager today is aware of geocaching. If they do not take steps to regulate it, or ban it then you have their implicit permission.

 

Is that the official Groundspeak position or your experience as a Moderator? Serious question.

 

I'm a moderator in the Getting Started forum. I do not speak for Groundspeak in any other forum.

 

It really was seriuos question. I wasn't trying to be abrasive. Thank you for clarification. I'm still learning what each position does.

[+jwigner]

I'm a little late, but here ya go anyway!

 

[+Team GPSaxophone]

If I want to play frisbee somewhere, do I have to go get permission from someone and assure them that I will remove the frisbee from their area when I'm done playing with it?

 

Geocaches are handled the same way, except that the game lasts for months (or years) with a particular "frisbee" instead of minutes or hours.

 

Now, I doubt I could play frisbee for very long in the Wal-Mart parking lot, but then, that's not a good place for a geocache either. Same with playing around the guardrail off of a busy street. There are good and bad places to play both games, but explicit permission isn't necessarily required.

[+dkwolf]

Against my better judgement, I'm going to chime in here. I just read the entire 3 pages of this mess in 20 minutes, so forgive me for not directly quoting parts I respond to, I'll try to sum it up as best I can as I go.

 

At one point, the question was raised "What about public lands that have no published policy" Well, that kinda answered itself. There is no published policy, so there is no policy. The frisbee rule applies; that is, if there is no policy banning or restricting geocaching, then adequate permission is implied. (The english law reference is a very good one--it is a legit activitiy unless it's explicitly prohibited in a written policy or law)

 

As has been mentioned, a great majority of land managers in this country are aware of geocaching, and where I'm from, a good chunk of them have at least done it once or twice. IF there was a problem with it, there would be a PUBLISHED and posted policy.

 

The problems with caches being blown up has absolutely NOTHING to do with the guidelines and the enforcement of such, rather it is the direct result of inexeperience, stupidity, and/or pure arrogance on behalf of the cache HIDER. All the permission in the world isn't going to help if someone spots a 'suspicious' looking item in a place it shouldn't be. The bomb squad isn't going to sit there and say "Hey, let's see if we can find someone who might know what this is." They're going to do a risk assessment, minimize the risk and blow the stupid thing up. Sure, they're about to find out that they demolished a bunch of broken happy meal toys, but hindsight is always 20/20.

 

I'm sure I meant to reply to more of this mess, but it's late and I'm tired...so I'll close with this.

 

It seemed to me that the initial post was typed in a somewhat emotionally charged state. The length, rambling, and incoherantness of it lead me to that conclusion. The whole thing was written to charge people. In the pages that followed, several of his 'questions' have been legitimately answered-by multiple people sometimes. But, they haven't been the answers the OP wanted, so they have been dismissed as 'tangents'. The OP refuses to admit the difference between 'adequate permission' and 'explicit permission', seemingly believing we should get 'explicit' permission for each and every cache we place. (sidebar: if that happens, geocaching will die as land managers will get tired of being asked and just start saying 'no')

 

But, to the OP, I extend this challenge. Put your money where your mouth is. If you sincerely, to your very heart, believe that every cache should have explicit permission, YOU do it first. On each and every one of your cache pages, list the individual or agency that granted EXPLICIT permission or archive the cache.

 

Or, alternatively, admit this thread to be the troll that it is, lock it, and quit wasting our time.

Edited June 14, 2006 by dkwolf

[+rjb43nh]

To answer the OP on placement permission, I think basically it comes down to this: If you were to knowingly place caches without permission that also broke other rules, guidelines, or accepted practices, and then bragged about getting away with it to the entire geocaching community, predictable reaction will follow and you will have no one to blame but yourself for the ensuing condemnation and storm. It appears the real reason you started this thread is you are trying to deflect blame from your previous similar bad acts, or justify them, by saying: "but everyone does it." My advice would be for you to drop it while you still have some dignity left. The entire tone of your posts only makes it look worse.

[+Robespierre]

You folks should give my real or percieved mistakes a rest, however, and deal with the question at hand.

 

a. I must admit this sounds like grade school tactics to me, and

 

2. I also know that there are violations out there. I have been instrumental in archiving one extreme example - in three years. I have permission from Police, county parks, city grounds keepers, cemetary managers, etc. for my caches. So, I know it's not impossible to do it right. But I also know that it's pretty easy to find volunteers to go out and pick up the pieces of problem caches - because, for the large part, we do care. and

 

c. the only reason to carry this discussion on (which has been done before), is to continue point a. Looks like you've tasted humble pie.............. but never swallowed.

[Clan Riffster]

Ed, the best thing to do when you find yourself in a hole, is stop digging. They got you by the shorthairs, Brother, and there ain't no way you can win this one. True, the day will probably come when all land managers everywhere will jump on the "Permission" bandwagon, but that day hasn't happened yet. You've asked your question, got a few well reasoned replys, (along with a whole lot of flaming, but that's to be expected in here), let it go.

[+gps_junky]

WOW! you talk about a lot of reading for this one. Seems to be a rough isue. My Question Is This: A guy gets arrested for Criminaly Tresspassing? I have been a Police Officer for 4 years now in two different states (not real long but fresh), I understand that there is somthing called "MENTAL STATES" Them two words mean how bad a crime is. I don't believe that a person would get that much crap for Tresspassing. Here in Wis. Tresspassing is this: A person commits Tresspassing if he/she (here is that mental state) "KNOWINGLY" enters an others property without that persons consent. IF THE "BOX WAS CHECKED," Then how could a Judge prosicute that when the geocacher BELIEVES he does have permision to walk on that persons land?

Any way, I have never found a cache on PERSONAL PROP. I will say that I have taken on a cache from the inproper angle and have Tresspassed a little. (Cross a back yard or somthing), But for the most part, I have the utmost respect for the hobby, along with most people that I have talked to (nongeocachers). Where I come from, most people don't get all flustered about the PRIVAT PROP. Unless its Deer Season! I would say as long as there are public traffic allowed, no prob. I wouldn't be walking pass "NO TRESS." signs to place one and wouldn't be jumping over fences. I havn't been to too many caches (I believe im on 75 or so, with 12 hides) but like I said, never once have I felt that I was on property where I shouldn't belong, EXCEPT the wrong angles (spelling) prob. And Most people IF THEY SAW ME, never realy cared. They seemed to be more interested in what I was doing and wanted to hear the whole story.....

[+Tsmola]

Against my better judgement, I'm going to chime in here. I just read the entire 3 pages of this mess in 20 minutes, so forgive me for not directly quoting parts I respond to, I'll try to sum it up as best I can as I go.

 

At one point, the question was raised "What about public lands that have no published policy" Well, that kinda answered itself. There is no published policy, so there is no policy. The frisbee rule applies; that is, if there is no policy banning or restricting geocaching, then adequate permission is implied. (The english law reference is a very good one--it is a legit activitiy unless it's explicitly prohibited in a written policy or law)

 

As has been mentioned, a great majority of land managers in this country are aware of geocaching, and where I'm from, a good chunk of them have at least done it once or twice. IF there was a problem with it, there would be a PUBLISHED and posted policy.

 

The problems with caches being blown up has absolutely NOTHING to do with the guidelines and the enforcement of such, rather it is the direct result of inexeperience, stupidity, and/or pure arrogance on behalf of the cache HIDER. All the permission in the world isn't going to help if someone spots a 'suspicious' looking item in a place it shouldn't be. The bomb squad isn't going to sit there and say "Hey, let's see if we can find someone who might know what this is." They're going to do a risk assessment, minimize the risk and blow the stupid thing up. Sure, they're about to find out that they demolished a bunch of broken happy meal toys, but hindsight is always 20/20.

 

I'm sure I meant to reply to more of this mess, but it's late and I'm tired...so I'll close with this.

 

It seemed to me that the initial post was typed in a somewhat emotionally charged state. The length, rambling, and incoherantness of it lead me to that conclusion. The whole thing was written to charge people. In the pages that followed, several of his 'questions' have been legitimately answered-by multiple people sometimes. But, they haven't been the answers the OP wanted, so they have been dismissed as 'tangents'. The OP refuses to admit the difference between 'adequate permission' and 'explicit permission', seemingly believing we should get 'explicit' permission for each and every cache we place. (sidebar: if that happens, geocaching will die as land managers will get tired of being asked and just start saying 'no')

 

But, to the OP, I extend this challenge. Put your money where your mouth is. If you sincerely, to your very heart, believe that every cache should have explicit permission, YOU do it first. On each and every one of your cache pages, list the individual or agency that granted EXPLICIT permission or archive the cache.

 

Or, alternatively, admit this thread to be the troll that it is, lock it, and quit wasting our time.

 

I've read the whole thread and this was no doubt one of the most intelligent, well-thought out replies of the whole thread. Well done! I agree this guy decided today would be good for trolling.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

WOW! you talk about a lot of reading for this one. Seems to be a rough isue. My Question Is This: A guy gets arrested for Criminaly Tresspassing? I have been a Police Officer for 4 years now in two different states (not real long but fresh), I understand that there is somthing called "MENTAL STATES" Them two words mean how bad a crime is. I don't believe that a person would get that much crap for Tresspassing. Here in Wis. Tresspassing is this: A person commits Tresspassing if he/she (here is that mental state) "KNOWINGLY" enters an others property without that persons consent. IF THE "BOX WAS CHECKED," Then how could a Judge prosicute that when the geocacher BELIEVES he does have permision to walk on that persons land?

Any way, I have never found a cache on PERSONAL PROP. I will say that I have taken on a cache from the inproper angle and have Tresspassed a little. (Cross a back yard or somthing), But for the most part, I have the utmost respect for the hobby, along with most people that I have talked to (nongeocachers). Where I come from, most people don't get all flustered about the PRIVAT PROP. Unless its Deer Season! I would say as long as there are public traffic allowed, no prob. I wouldn't be walking pass "NO TRESS." signs to place one and wouldn't be jumping over fences. I havn't been to too many caches (I believe im on 75 or so, with 12 hides) but like I said, never once have I felt that I was on property where I shouldn't belong, EXCEPT the wrong angles (spelling) prob. And Most people IF THEY SAW ME, never realy cared. They seemed to be more interested in what I was doing and wanted to hear the whole story.....

 

Believe it! His arrest ended like this:

Hi Folks,

I have been pretty silent lately, but I wanted to update just in case people are still wondering.

 

I had my "Court date". It lasted for about 5 minutes, the Lawyer and I went to the front Told the folks (Judge, City attorny, etc) what heppened. Not a single person knew what Geocaching was and most seemed to think it was a strange hobby, but agreed it was probably not worth full court, so them passed over the case for 1 year and then it will be dismissed (with no fine and no Court costs)

 

But, it was highly suggested that I not engage in this hobby anymore (at least for the next year) So I am ok, but I will probaby not be doing any more Geocaching for a while. (execpt to try and clean up a few DNF that I have had. Only 1 of those left) Also I have not decided if I am going to kill my cache (I am almost too nervious to even maintain it)

 

His story can be read at http://www.arkgeocaching.org/modules.php?n...0c31e2eda8906e4 and http://www.arkgeocaching.org/modules.php?n...0c31e2eda8906e4

 

An earlier arrest is:

Hillwilly's Day In Court

If most of you don't know what this is about this is an update on what happened with Tunnel Vision 1909. On November 2, 2001 Hillwilly's cache was blown up by the BOMB SQUAD in Dorris California. The FBI got involved and charged us with Criminal Trespass and Criminal Vandalism for placing the cache on railroad property. You cannot be within 150 feet of it. This happened to be the weekend of the most terrorism that was suppose to hit all the bridges and tunnels in the U.S. since the 9-11 attacks. There were some people at the cache and replacing the ammo can back on the hillside when the train conductor came out of the tunnel and noticed them. In turn, he called the police and in turn they called in the bomb squad and the FBI. They ended up coming to our house and investigating us and dropped the terrorist charges. The other charges were then filed against Hillwilly. He had to go to court on May 3rd. last Friday and here is the outcome. The judge started out with a 1 hour commentary on every case to be presented except ours in which Tonto, fell asleep and was snoring through it. Hillwilly went up before him and took the newspaper article that was featured in our local newspaper with him and Quad doing Geo-caching and promoting it, along with alot of caches and groups of people with the cache. The judge threw it aside and wasn't interested. He proceeded to start telling him the charges of Criminal trespassing and vandalism. Hillwilly sprayed some gold paint where it wasn't suppose to be. The sentence was then read. It goes as follows: 1 year jail time, 1 year on probation to stay out of any kind of trouble, 1 year license suspension in the state of California, and to pay all the expenses incurred for the bomb squad, the railroad having to change 2 crews out because of a 4 1/2 hour detainment and closing down of Hwy. 97. They had to taxi 2 crew men in to change shifts and 2 crew men had to be taxi'd into K.Falls and put up in a motel for the night then be taxi'd back to Redding the next day. The expense just for that was $1650.00. With all the fines and fees attatched to all of this, the grand total was $2030.00, which we had to pay right then and there. To be kind ,for the moment, the judge told him he would drop the 1 year jail time. He was not to be near the train tracks ever again unless he was on the train. This was pretty hefty for playing a harmless game. Tonto mentioned taking up donations, maybe not a bad idea. The thing we didn't understand was the suspension of his driver's lecense for a year. Pulled that out of a hat. I'm mentioning all of this so it hopefully won't happen to anyone else. If you have any caches on RR property pull them or move them, and you shouldn't go and get any one elses either. This is probably the most expensive cache we will ever do and the most talked about. I want to thank all of you for your thoughts and concern for Hillwilly. Happy Geo-caching to all. Di

END

 

So, here you have the result of but two caches placed without permission - at one the finder was prosecuted, at the other the owner ultimately was, though the finder had his share of grief.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Thanks to all who responded here, I think this horse has been well flogged... time to close it and move on.

 

Lots of interesting viewpoints!

 

Ed