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Feature Request - No Stats


jon & miki

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I would really like to see a user level option to hide the totals of finds for my login.

 

On the logs on cache description pages, the count could simply be omitted. On the profile "badge", "NA" could be put in place of the numbers. On the profile page, the types of caches found and hidden could be left, but the summary totals by row and column left out. A click on the icons would lead to the logs as it does today, only the summary counts would be omitted.

 

It would be nice if the owner of the login could see their own statistics - I''d prefer that the option only suppress the visibility of totals for other folks than the owner. If there has to be a choice though, I'd rather have the option to suppress the statistics altogether and muddle along without knowing my own numbers.

 

If someone really cares to know the level of another cacher's experience, they would still be able to see the logs as they could today from the profile page to get a feel for the types and quantities found and if sufficiently motivated, the curious could count the logs manually.

 

Heck, it might even save a bit of server load since these numbers would not have to be recalculated each time the cache description and profile pages are recomposed.

 

Any chance for such a feature?

Edited by jon & miki
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Why do you want the numbers hidden?

 

If you just don't want everyone else to know how many caches you have found, don't log them online at all, or log them as notes.

Because that impacts the usefulness of many of the site tools. You cant get a "all notes that are really finds" PQ. You can't do a search that excludes caches you found but didn't log. You can't tell your PQ to eliminate caches that you have already found but logged as notes. For example, I waste 1, possibly 2 PQs a day because they include caches I've found but haven't logged online. I can then filter out my finds locally, but the point is 30% or more of the load I'm putting on the site is wasted. How's that for starters?

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Why do you want the numbers hidden?

 

If you just don't want everyone else to know how many caches you have found, don't log them online at all, or log them as notes.

Because that impacts the usefulness of many of the site tools. You cant get a "all notes that are really finds" PQ. You can't do a search that excludes caches you found but didn't log. You can't tell your PQ to eliminate caches that you have already found but logged as notes. For example, I waste 1, possibly 2 PQs a day because they include caches I've found but haven't logged online. I can then filter out my finds locally, but the point is 30% or more of the load I'm putting on the site is wasted. How's that for starters?

Hey, those are all good points. But my feeling actually is that I like the numbers. I like to see mine, and I like to look at others. I sometimes have reasons for wanting to see the numbers that others have racked up.

 

For instance, I introduced my Dad's cousin and his wife to to geocaching, and I like to go check on their progress now and then. They are only one example of many. I am not about to go through people cache logs counting up all their finds to see how many they have. I could be out caching instead.

 

I have a few caches hidden. If someone with four caches tells me its missing, I am not as concerned as I would be if someone with four thousand caches tells me they couldn't find it, even after a half an hour.

 

When it comes down to it, I guess that I just don't like the idea of having the numbers go away because someone else doesn't want their numbers to show. Usually when a reason is given, it's because they feel like the numbers 'force' some kind of competition on them. It's the same kind of reasoning that people use ot suggest that I should stop giving grades to my students, because it forces them to compete with other students--It doesn't, it just makes them push to get to 100%

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Why do you want the numbers hidden?

 

If you just don't want everyone else to know how many caches you have found, don't log them online at all, or log them as notes.

Because that impacts the usefulness of many of the site tools. You cant get a "all notes that are really finds" PQ. You can't do a search that excludes caches you found but didn't log. You can't tell your PQ to eliminate caches that you have already found but logged as notes. For example, I waste 1, possibly 2 PQs a day because they include caches I've found but haven't logged online. I can then filter out my finds locally, but the point is 30% or more of the load I'm putting on the site is wasted. How's that for starters?

Hey, those are all good points. But my feeling actually is that I like the numbers. I like to see mine, and I like to look at others. I sometimes have reasons for wanting to see the numbers that others have racked up.

 

For instance, I introduced my Dad's cousin and his wife to to geocaching, and I like to go check on their progress now and then. They are only one example of many. I am not about to go through people cache logs counting up all their finds to see how many they have. I could be out caching instead.

 

I have a few caches hidden. If someone with four caches tells me its missing, I am not as concerned as I would be if someone with four thousand caches tells me they couldn't find it, even after a half an hour.

 

When it comes down to it, I guess that I just don't like the idea of having the numbers go away because someone else doesn't want their numbers to show. Usually when a reason is given, it's because they feel like the numbers 'force' some kind of competition on them. It's the same kind of reasoning that people use ot suggest that I should stop giving grades to my students, because it forces them to compete with other students--It doesn't, it just makes them push to get to 100%

 

First, please note that I am asking for an option to hide the statistics and only the statistics for one's own finds. The proposal would be to have the default be the same as today (i.e. statistics showing), so your cousin's summary statistics would not be hidden by default (if they choose to hide their stats, well, that would be a family matter).

 

I understand the "DNF" concern and attempted to address it by leaving the profile summary page untouched except for the totals. You can make a quick assessment by simply looking at the variety of types of caches found and even with a cacher's statistics hidden, you can still easily assess the level of experience by simply clicking on the "all cache finds" and/or "all cache hides" links.

 

I'm afraid I don't see the analogy with giving grades to students. Students all cover the same material in a given class, while I'd have a very hard time making the case that finding 100 1/1 film cannisters in wallyworld parking lots is comparable to finding 100 5/5's in the woods (difficulty and terrain are only two examples of relevant statistics NOT shown on the summary page).

 

In the case of grades, the evaluations are usually for the parents and the individual student (and colleges, which have a valid reason for access) and, at least in my experience are not generally posted publicly for the other students in the class or the entire school to view - not at grades 1-12 anyway and certainly not on a open access web page for anyone with a browser and an internet link to see. In the case of geocaching stats, the numbers would still exist (as do grades), the raw numbers could simply not be shared for casual inspection by the entire online world at the owner's option.

 

Even with the stats hidden, with another click or two the inquisitive could still get the same information as before (the "all cache finds" link does give a total record count after all). The curious would just have to look a little harder and maybe actually glance at the quality as well as the quantity of a cacher's finds before making a snap judgement on the basis of a flawed statistic posted as a single number on a cache log entry.

 

Many times the arguments in favor of the statistical summaries come down to "I like seeing them". I would prefer my own to be hidden from casual view. Your curiousity vs my privacy - an old argument in many contexts and lacking a compelliing reason to the contrary, one in which I usually come down in favor of privacy.

Edited by jon & miki
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Hey, those are all good points. But my feeling actually is that I like the numbers. I like to see mine, and I like to look at others. I sometimes have reasons for wanting to see the numbers that others have racked up.

 

For instance, I introduced my Dad's cousin and his wife to to geocaching, and I like to go check on their progress now and then. They are only one example of many. I am not about to go through people cache logs counting up all their finds to see how many they have. I could be out caching instead.

 

I have a few caches hidden. If someone with four caches tells me its missing, I am not as concerned as I would be if someone with four thousand caches tells me they couldn't find it, even after a half an hour.

 

When it comes down to it, I guess that I just don't like the idea of having the numbers go away because someone else doesn't want their numbers to show. Usually when a reason is given, it's because they feel like the numbers 'force' some kind of competition on them. It's the same kind of reasoning that people use ot suggest that I should stop giving grades to my students, because it forces them to compete with other students--It doesn't, it just makes them push to get to 100%

The first line of the OP:

I would really like to see a user level option to hide the totals of finds for my login.

So your numbers, or your dad's cousin's, would remain visible if you wanted.

 

Personally, I'm only competing against myself, so I don't need to see anyone elses stats. Besides, unless I have personal knowledge of that other person's cache logging ethics their stats are meaningless.

There is a thread today about how people brought caches with them to Geowoodstock from places like Iraq.

Are the stats of those that are logging a pile of caches sitting on a table in TX really the same as the person who logged the cache while dodging bullets in Iraq?

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I whole heartedly agree with being able to hide stats.

 

Some additional suggestions from me would include hiding the tabs for geocaches, trackables, and gallery; and restrict the "&ul="--the total list of found caches--to the last 100 caches logged.

 

The first suggestion means it's really no one else's business to even be in that list. If someone wants to keep their history on gc.com private, and still use the services offered, then they should be able to.

 

The second takes care of the "newbie" factor when dealing with DNF's. By the time you've gotten 100 caches you've pretty much have enough experience to find a viable cache. Any more finds than that won't guarantee a cache will be found as I've seen cachers well into the four digits completely blow a 1/1 cache and a team of cachers, each well into the 4 digits, DNF on a cache that a single cacher with only a little into 3 digits find.

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CR's ideas certainly have merit and I hope will be considered by TPTB.

 

I'm in favor of any approach that facilitates privacy and will actually get implemented by TPTB. Knowing there are lots of things on their to-do list that demand TPTB's time and effort, I'd be glad to accept something less than optimum if it's more quickly and easily implemented.

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I would really like to see a user level option to hide the totals of finds for my login.

 

On the logs on cache description pages, the count could simply be omitted. On the profile "badge", "NA" could be put in place of the numbers. On the profile page, the types of caches found and hidden could be left, but the summary totals by row and column left out. A click on the icons would lead to the logs as it does today, only the summary counts would be omitted.

 

It would be nice if the owner of the login could see their own statistics - I''d prefer that the option only suppress the visibility of totals for other folks than the owner. If there has to be a choice though, I'd rather have the option to suppress the statistics altogether and muddle along without knowing my own numbers.

 

If someone really cares to know the level of another cacher's experience, they would still be able to see the logs as they could today from the profile page to get a feel for the types and quantities found and if sufficiently motivated, the curious could count the logs manually.

 

Heck, it might even save a bit of server load since these numbers would not have to be recalculated each time the cache description and profile pages are recomposed.

 

Any chance for such a feature?

 

The one thing I don't see mentioned in the above, is "why?"

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I would really like to see a user level option to hide the totals of finds for my login.

 

On the logs on cache description pages, the count could simply be omitted. On the profile "badge", "NA" could be put in place of the numbers. On the profile page, the types of caches found and hidden could be left, but the summary totals by row and column left out. A click on the icons would lead to the logs as it does today, only the summary counts would be omitted.

 

It would be nice if the owner of the login could see their own statistics - I''d prefer that the option only suppress the visibility of totals for other folks than the owner. If there has to be a choice though, I'd rather have the option to suppress the statistics altogether and muddle along without knowing my own numbers.

 

If someone really cares to know the level of another cacher's experience, they would still be able to see the logs as they could today from the profile page to get a feel for the types and quantities found and if sufficiently motivated, the curious could count the logs manually.

 

Heck, it might even save a bit of server load since these numbers would not have to be recalculated each time the cache description and profile pages are recomposed.

 

Any chance for such a feature?

 

The one thing I don't see mentioned in the above, is "why?"

My opinion (reserving the right to be wrong; I wouldn't want to speak out of turn on behalf of a forum poster I don't know):

 

(1) Questionable ethics of (what I believe to be) a small number of cachers and the basis on which they claim their "Found It" logs

 

(2) The above leading to inaccurate judgments of the experience and credibility of said cachers IF THAT MATTERS TO YOU (if it doesn't, it's a moot point)

 

(3) An uneven playing field for those who choose to compete with other cachers on the basis of stats (again, IF THAT MATTERS TO YOU - if it doesn't, it's a moot point)

 

(edit: sp.)

Edited by drat19
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The one thing I don't see mentioned in the above, is "why?"

 

I'm not going to answer for anyone but myself. Others may have a different view point or reason.

 

I see a problem and I see it centered around the number of Found It logs written. The number of smilies someone has credited to their names becomes a motivating factor for some folks and the way they approach the hobby. Heck, it could be a factor in whether they consider geocaching a sport or game versus a hobby or pastime.

 

When the motivating factor shifts from the thrill of the adventure, the memories made by the journey, the wonder of what the hider wants to show them, and turns to the need to get a certain number of caches before the end of the day, then the quality of caching experience is diminished. It's no longer about the cache and what you get from the experience, but what signing the log (or recently, what you think you can get away with) gets you--a smilie, one more increment towards a goal.

 

Right now, relatively few folks know about the problem. Around here, we don't have spew. We actually have relatively few lame caches most of which were placed by someone who doesn't even live here and doesn't appreciate the way the locals like to cache, but this is besides the point. The point is, because few know there are folks who don't care about the numbers they can assume most do care about the numbers. It's natural to compare.

 

But if folks start hiding their numbers they are actually able to make a statement. This statement is much more in-your-face, so to speak, than something in a profile or boycotting by not logging anything.

 

As an example let's take this page. Where's Sissy-n-CR? Say I'm a relatively new cacher and I've been caching in the area for a while and I see their name in all of the caches I visit. Wouldn't I wonder why they aren't listed?

 

See what I mean?

 

It would be even better if the list of all local cachers were in alphabetical order and those who have chosen to hide their numbers simply had "**private**" displayed. Then it would be clear how many don't want the numbers to enter into how they approach the hobby.

 

By removing our stats from public view we are making a statement to the rest of the geocaching community that we are motivated by the caches in the wild rather than some aggregate on a website.

 

Maybe then, there would be a little bit of a disincentive to place less than inspired caches as "gifts to the community" (read as "cheap smilies"). Granted, one or two folks hiding their numbers isn't going to do much, but if the majority has hidden their numbers, then a person just might think twice about the motivation behind hiding such a "gift."

 

EDIT: clarity

Edited by CoyoteRed
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Right now, relatively few folks know about the problem. Around here, we don't have spew. We actually have relatively few lame caches most of which were placed by someone who doesn't even live here and doesn't appreciate the way the locals like to cache, but this is besides the point.

 

. . . . .

 

Maybe then, there would be a little bit of a disincentive to place less than inspired caches as "gifts to the community" (read as "cheap smilies"). Granted, one or two folks hiding their numbers isn't going to do much, but if the majority has hidden their numbers, then a person just might think twice about the motivation behind hiding such a "gift."

 

(OT, but I had to post this) CR: I'm always glad to see you get in yet another dig or two at our favorite "gift-giver to the community". ;) You know I've sat here in Biloxi as a remote supporter to you on that. :)

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(OT, but I had to post this) CR: I'm always glad to see you get in yet another dig or two at our favorite "gift-giver to the community". ;) You know I've sat here in Biloxi as a remote supporter to you on that. :)

 

The locals I've spoken to have maybe found one or two. The rest are put on the ignore list. You'll get a newbie ever so often find one or two. The rest are out-of-towners. Too bad sometimes these are the only ones they hit. I have to wonder if they think the rest of our caches are the same.

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(OT, but I had to post this) CR: I'm always glad to see you get in yet another dig or two at our favorite "gift-giver to the community". ;) You know I've sat here in Biloxi as a remote supporter to you on that. :)

 

The locals I've spoken to have maybe found one or two. The rest are put on the ignore list. You'll get a newbie ever so often find one or two. The rest are out-of-towners. Too bad sometimes these are the only ones they hit. I have to wonder if they think the rest of our caches are the same.

As you know (and as you agree...this post is for other readers), that's precisely the point I've been making when I've discussed how Micro Spew has overtaken so many metro areas...it doesn't mean that's ALL there is to find in a given area, but it means that to visitors and/or new local cachers, it represents the overall quality of an area's caches. This is why Micro Spew is bad for our game.

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You know, one of the odd things about privacy is that the more you have to explain why you want privacy, the less privacy you have.

 

It seems to me that at least part of the burden of proof in this case falls on whoever feels they have a compelling reason to look at my personal stats.

 

The strongest argument I've heard from anyone claiming a compelling reason to be able to review my personal stats is that they are useful in determining whether a DNF is valid. CR's and others' suggestions address that issue, but it's a pretty weak argument if they only look at the numbers. I certainly wouldn't give much credibility to a DNF on an urban camo-cache by a woods cacher with a hundred wilderness finds - he or she might never have found a camoflauged or nano cache before. Or would you give credibility to the cacher with 160+ event "finds" while only attending 17 events, but only a few finds of physical caches? The cache owner really has to look at the type of finds before judging the quality of a DNF and my original suggestion left the concerned and curious the option of seeing all my logs in a nice list.

 

The weakest argument has been that "I like looking at the stats". I think the right to privacy and concern about misuse of information both trump simple curiousity.

 

Although I think the advocates for complete and public visibility of stats need to justify their position, I recognize that I am advocating and requesting a change to the current status quo, so I will attempt to address the other half of the equation, "Why make a change at all?".

 

Several of the posts above provide valid reasons. I do not think they need to be the same reasons for every cacher, but I will add a few of my own.

 

In my personal case, while I believe the individual statistics are largely meaningless (at best misleading), not everyone shares that belief and therein lies part of the problem.

 

I enjoy going to events to meet other cachers, new and old. I have personally seen numbers cachers putting down newbies with statements like "you don't know anything about geocaching until you've found 1000 caches". Enough of that and newbies start believing that folks with a 1000 finds are somehow better, smarter, smell better or whatever. I prefer not to be judged on my find count, but on my work and contributions to the community. The trivially easy access to my personal statistics makes it much too quick and tempting to judge me on one number alone.

 

In the current hyper-competitive quest for smilies, the credibility of ALL high count cachers is coming into question. And justifiably so. If my "score" is not public, my personal credibility will not be immediately in question simply because I've found more than some magic number of caches.

 

The easy access to my "score" makes the existence of "leader boards" such as CR linked to possible (and probably inevitable). The "leader board" makes it simple to find the active cachers in the state. That information can be (and I believe has been) misused by non-geocachers.

 

There are other reasons I would like to keep my stats private and in the interests of maintaining my privacy, I will keep them so. Other cachers can and perhaps will provide their own reasons, but I firmly believe the burden of proof lies on the ones who believe they have a compelling reason to be able to see my stats when I would prefer to keep them private.

 

*edited for clarity (I hope)*

Edited by jon & miki
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Would we have a user-level option to hide our cache coordinates from users who are hiding their stats? ;-)

 

Regardless of what some people say, a lot of the cachers I know read other cachers logs and watch what they are doing - the community IS the game for a lot of people. Change what is displayed about cachers and you change the balance in the game. At some point, gameplay then changes. This stat hiding has implications beyond the immediately obvious ones.

 

Other things hastily introduced on this web site have eventually been removed - virtuals and locationless, moving caches, earthcaches, etc. They all had creative merit, but got out of hand, and affected the game negatively

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Other things hastily introduced on this web site have eventually been removed - virtuals and locationless, moving caches, earthcaches, etc. They all had creative merit, but got out of hand, and affected the game negatively

Just wanted to point out that moving caches really haven't been removed. You just submit a traditional cache in a park, and after it's listed you call it a pocket cache.

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Would we have a user-level option to hide our cache coordinates from users who are hiding their stats? ;-)

 

Regardless of what some people say, a lot of the cachers I know read other cachers logs and watch what they are doing - the community IS the game for a lot of people. Change what is displayed about cachers and you change the balance in the game. At some point, gameplay then changes. This stat hiding has implications beyond the immediately obvious ones.

 

Other things hastily introduced on this web site have eventually been removed - virtuals and locationless, moving caches, earthcaches, etc. They all had creative merit, but got out of hand, and affected the game negatively

Please note - my original suggestion does NOT prevent others from seeing my personal logs, not on the cache page, not via email notifications either. The proposal if implemented would not interfere with that aspect of caching in any way. It only removes an individual's personal find count and summary statistics from several trivially accessed places and then only for cachers who wish their stats hidden.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the entire landscape of the geocaching world could be irretrievably and permanently damaged if a few of us opted out of sharing our summary stats?

 

BTW - per your "modest proposal" in the first paragraph, if it's a concern to you, please feel free to include in your cache description a statement that folks with hidden stats aren't allowed to log your caches. I promise not to knowingly hunt any so marked and will not have my feelings hurt if you delete any that I log in error.

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From a product point of view (i.e. geocaching.com), if it's that few customers who would use the option that it wouldn't affect the game, it's not worth building the option. But that's their judgement.

 

From a user's point of view, I'm all for people having more and more options (including removing their stats). But they can introduce consequences (like my mock request) far into the future which are not determinable now, and can only be seen much later.

 

Sometimes the only way people learn is letting them make mistakes. Lately the pendulum at geocaching.com has been swinging away from the experimental approach and back towards the core activity approach.

 

I'd like to see the change requests focus on the big problems in our game first, like cache quality.

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From a product point of view (i.e. geocaching.com), if it's that few customers who would use the option that it wouldn't affect the game, it's not worth building the option. But that's their judgement.

 

From a user's point of view, I'm all for people having more and more options (including removing their stats). But they can introduce consequences (like my mock request) far into the future which are not determinable now, and can only be seen much later.

 

Sometimes the only way people learn is letting them make mistakes. Lately the pendulum at geocaching.com has been swinging away from the experimental approach and back towards the core activity approach.

 

I'd like to see the change requests focus on the big problems in our game first, like cache quality.

I admit my comment about a "few" was somewhat tongue in cheek. I suspect there might be more than a few who would opt out of sharing their summary stats for a variety of reasons. Your point about the (possibly limited) benefit is valid, but it needs to be balanced against the effort involved. I believe that stats were quickly disabled in the past to aid in diagnosing and alleviating performance problems, so I believe/hope the effort might not be so great as to outweigh the benefits to the "opt in"-ers.

 

Besides, as others have posted in other threads, the decline in cache quality is at least partially driven by the hyper-competitive drive to achieve high personal stats and records. After all, a numbers addict can't find a lot of caches unless someone places them, so a numbers person has to place a lot of caches for their friends to find (the old saw about "you scratch my back" applies here, so the effect is doubled). If they're into high find numbers, they don't like to spend much time finding caches, let alone hiding them (I have met folks who have told me they have a rule that they look for a cache a maximum of 2 minutes, and if it's not found, abandon the search and drive to the next). So the kind of low-quality trivial-to-find caches we're concerned about accumulate. And new cachers hunt these first, so are justified in thinking that's what caching is all about. They have been taught by the community's placements that no thought is even desirable, just make a quick copy the wally-world parking lot cache at the next shopping center and that should be good enough.

 

Some have proposed removing the stats altogether to eliminate the possibility of direct competition as a possible remedy for the cache quality problem. I don't think I'd advocate that radical a step, but I would like to separate myself from the "New Numbers Game" and an option to hide my personal stats would allow me and other like-minded folks to do so.

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Besides, as others have posted in other threads, the decline in cache quality is at least partially driven by the hyper-competitive drive to achieve high personal stats and records. After all, a numbers addict can't find a lot of caches unless someone places them, so a numbers person has to place a lot of caches for their friends to find (the old saw about "you scratch my back" applies here, so the effect is doubled). If they're into high find numbers, they don't like to spend much time finding caches, let alone hiding them (I have met folks who have told me they have a rule that they look for a cache a maximum of 2 minutes, and if it's not found, abandon the search and drive to the next). So the kind of low-quality trivial-to-find caches we're concerned about accumulate. And new cachers hunt these first, so are justified in thinking that's what caching is all about. They have been taught by the community's placements that no thought is even desirable, just make a quick copy the wally-world parking lot cache at the next shopping center and that should be good enough.

 

Some have proposed removing the stats altogether to eliminate the possibility of direct competition as a possible remedy for the cache quality problem. I don't think I'd advocate that radical a step, but I would like to separate myself from the "New Numbers Game" and an option to hide my personal stats would allow me and other like-minded folks to do so.

 

I think the cause of declining cache quality still an open question with a variety of answers. Stats may be causing it, but the suggestion here is not going to stop stats, because that is a personally driven thing. Even without stats, I suspect that the constant need to hide and find new caches will keep cache quality on the decline. I think the addiction is not so much to the numbers, but about the challenge.

 

I advocate a more direct attack on the problem which is taking responsibility for caches and cachers in your area and as caching consumers to demand higher quality caches. We have prolific hiders and finders, but amongst our local cachers I don't see any numbers competition, so I guess we're lucky. There is usually a certain amount of friendly FTF competition. In that case, I think FTFs are special. You are finding the cache before it has had a chance to be muggled (usually) and before it has been mis-replaced, compromised, or otherwised different from the hider's experience (which may be seasonal).

 

As far as keeping the game interesting to long time cachers (who have cleared out their home turf and are responsible for the majority of caches and finds), I think something does have to be found to influence their behavior. I think there's still some exploring to be done on that front.

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I would really like to see a user level option to hide the totals of finds for my login.

 

On the logs on cache description pages, the count could simply be omitted. On the profile "badge", "NA" could be put in place of the numbers. On the profile page, the types of caches found and hidden could be left, but the summary totals by row and column left out. A click on the icons would lead to the logs as it does today, only the summary counts would be omitted.

 

It would be nice if the owner of the login could see their own statistics - I''d prefer that the option only suppress the visibility of totals for other folks than the owner. If there has to be a choice though, I'd rather have the option to suppress the statistics altogether and muddle along without knowing my own numbers.

 

If someone really cares to know the level of another cacher's experience, they would still be able to see the logs as they could today from the profile page to get a feel for the types and quantities found and if sufficiently motivated, the curious could count the logs manually.

 

Heck, it might even save a bit of server load since these numbers would not have to be recalculated each time the cache description and profile pages are recomposed.

 

Any chance for such a feature?

 

The one thing I don't see mentioned in the above, is "why?"

 

Just hold up your list of "why not" in front of a mirror. :rolleyes::P:)

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Hey, those are all good points. But my feeling actually is that I like the numbers. I like to see mine, and I like to look at others. I sometimes have reasons for wanting to see the numbers that others have racked up.

 

For instance, I introduced my Dad's cousin and his wife to to geocaching, and I like to go check on their progress now and then. They are only one example of many. I am not about to go through people cache logs counting up all their finds to see how many they have. I could be out caching instead.

 

I have a few caches hidden. If someone with four caches tells me its missing, I am not as concerned as I would be if someone with four thousand caches tells me they couldn't find it, even after a half an hour.

 

When it comes down to it, I guess that I just don't like the idea of having the numbers go away because someone else doesn't want their numbers to show. Usually when a reason is given, it's because they feel like the numbers 'force' some kind of competition on them. It's the same kind of reasoning that people use ot suggest that I should stop giving grades to my students, because it forces them to compete with other students--It doesn't, it just makes them push to get to 100%

When grading your students is the grade a percentage of an assignment that was completed correctly? or was it just pass or fail (found or did not find)?

Let's say they were the same, are the scores displayed in realtime for everyone to look at any time they like?

 

Considering how geocachers are not supposed to be in a competing with each other, there are not prizes, and "counts are not important", why do display scores to others at all? Some people are number blind and don't pay attention to what anyones numbers say. Others seem to plan lightpole micro hunting tours specifically to keep up with the Jones. Then there are lots of people between there, that find numbers interesting but not of high importance. Those that will want to compete will do so, even if it would mean actually telling someone their score, or posting it on some third party website.

But for the rest of 'us' why do we display our stats? I like looking at my stats, I know which smilies were hard, which were easy, which were really fun, which were boring. Looking at just a total can't tell someone else that, reasonable people know this, but some forget that and put way too much importance on one number. It seems like its giving out only half the info. To me it seems people are sizing each other up on what they think those numbers mean. If I had the option I would hide my stats, just because you can't make many meaningful judgements from a page full of plain totals.

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The trouble is, as I see it, is that those people who are the "numbers hos", or use less than ethical means to boost their find counts (and there have been several treads on this topic recently) WANT their achievements to be publically visible, so everyone can see what great cachers they are. Conversely, those who aren't into the numbers game - and probably unlikely to abuse the system - would be those who would opt out of the stats display.

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I remember when I used to be impressed when somebody had 100 finds. Now I see people with 1000+ finds and wonder how many lightpoles and guardrails they must have kissed and why.

 

I don't like even the appearance that I am caught up in this race. Please let me opt out!

 

I echo the sentiments of CR and others who think that numbers-driven behavior is responsible for the proliferation of lame caches. I would promptly sign up for this feature request on this basis. I would hope that this would change the "balance of the game" and "gameplay". Today's numbers cachers bore me. They are like some kind of a bizarre lightpole-worshipping cult engaged in a very peculiar penance ritual. They seem to believe that they can gain the indulgence of some unseen interntet entity by writing their name or initials on waypointed stationary.

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The trouble is, as I see it, is that those people who are the "numbers hos", or use less than ethical means to boost their find counts (and there have been several treads on this topic recently) WANT their achievements to be publically visible, so everyone can see what great cachers they are. Conversely, those who aren't into the numbers game - and probably unlikely to abuse the system - would be those who would opt out of the stats display.

That, in of itself, would be useful information.

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The trouble is, as I see it, is that those people who are the "numbers hos", or use less than ethical means to boost their find counts (and there have been several treads on this topic recently) WANT their achievements to be publically visible, so everyone can see what great cachers they are. Conversely, those who aren't into the numbers game - and probably unlikely to abuse the system - would be those who would opt out of the stats display.

That, in of itself, would be useful information.

That it would. It would certainly show the "power cachers" just how many folks don't really give a hoot about their "achievements."

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I'd support an 'opt-out' mechanism for people who don't want their stats to show.

 

But without understanding how such a feature would be implemented, I disagree with the notion that we can draw any conclusions about the motivations of geocachers who would and would not use such a feature, as some others have suggested. To globally categorize anyone that would want their stats to remain public as braggarts is a bit of a stretch. There are valid reasons why someone would NOT opt out which have nothing to do with self promotion, especially since there is currently no 'group' mechanism on GC.com.

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To globally categorize anyone that would want their stats to remain public as braggarts is a bit of a stretch.

 

Who did that?

 

Not me.

 

Trying to claim that because braggarts will show their stats that everyone who shows their stats are braggarts is like claiming that because rednecks drive pickups that everyone who drives a pickup is a redneck.

 

I was inferring that those into the numbers would be looking around while they are crowing and see some folks have hidden their stats. Looks, it's kind of like a class clown acting up and no one is looking.

 

I'm not seeing anywhere where anyone has said that everyone who is going to show their numbers are braggarts.

 

EDIT: added an example.

Edited by CoyoteRed
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To globally categorize anyone that would want their stats to remain public as braggarts is a bit of a stretch.

 

Who did that?

 

Not me.

Sorry CR, that wasn't directed at you.

 

I was referring to Maclir's post, I probably should have quoted it in mine.

 

The trouble is, as I see it, is that those people who are the "numbers hos", or use less than ethical means to boost their find counts (and there have been several treads on this topic recently) WANT their achievements to be publically visible, so everyone can see what great cachers they are. Conversely, those who aren't into the numbers game - and probably unlikely to abuse the system - would be those who would opt out of the stats display.

 

Having just re-read Maclir's post, I can see that I might have misunderstood the point which was being made. Sorry for the confusion.

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I was thinking about this no stat thing. Blocking others from viewing my stats would be a feature I'd use, however, there may be other options. Unlike Team 360, I'm not willing to change all my finds to logs, or delete all my finds, because it would screw up my "not found" pocket queries.

 

However...

 

If numbers are an issue, what I COULD do is run the "all caches found" pocket query, then go into every cache on that list that's been archived, and change my FOUND to a NOTE on that cache page. That would reduce my numbers, but not screw up my pocket queries on active caches. It kinda accomplishes the same goal, but would mean a lot of work for me. Having a STATS ON/OFF switch in my profile would be a much easier way, for ME... however, I'm betting that the numbers are so much of an integrated part of this web site that coding such a switch would be a huge undertaking, and very possibly one which TPTB won't bother with.

 

Anyway, just wanted to offer an alternative idea. Maybe we'll get lucky and the stat switch will appear next month. :laughing:

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I'd like it one step further, where only the cacher could see his stats and nobody elses. Thus eliminating what in my opinion is degrading the hobby into a numbers thing (with many negative issues).
That big a change would probably cause a serious firestorm in the forums, but it might be a bit calmer if the URL to a cacher's personal stats could be shared or pasted into their profile if they wanted to share their stats. Kinda like shared bookmarks work today maybe.
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I'd like it one step further, where only the cacher could see his stats and nobody elses. Thus eliminating what in my opinion is degrading the hobby into a numbers thing (with many negative issues).
That big a change would probably cause a serious firestorm in the forums, but it might be a bit calmer if the URL to a cacher's personal stats could be shared or pasted into their profile if they wanted to share their stats. Kinda like shared bookmarks work today maybe.

 

Excellent solution!

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Other things hastily introduced on this web site have eventually been removed - virtuals and locationless, moving caches, earthcaches, etc. They all had creative merit, but got out of hand, and affected the game negatively

Just wanted to point out that moving caches really haven't been removed. You just submit a traditional cache in a park, and after it's listed you call it a pocket cache.

 

But... isn't that the problem with moving pocket caches...???? AREN'T THEY BEING MOVED AND RE-MOVED OVER AND OVER??!!!! <_<

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I'm sure it would cause a major ruckus on the forums, but I think we (the forum junkies) make up a very very small part of the geocaching world. I know about 40 local cachers in the area and only one goes on the forums.

On another note, would anyone stop playing if their stats weren't public?

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I'd like it one step further, where only the cacher could see his stats and nobody elses. Thus eliminating what in my opinion is degrading the hobby into a numbers thing (with many negative issues).

 

I'd love to see this happen! But I'd settle for being able to exclude myself from the geocaching rat race.

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On another note, would anyone stop playing if their stats weren't public?

 

Oh, I'm absolutely certain there would be a few. Thing is, if anyone is going to quit over it then it may be likely they weren't geocaching, but simply "smilie collecting." I doubt anyone would miss them.

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I'm sure it would cause a major ruckus on the forums, but I think we (the forum junkies) make up a very very small part of the geocaching world. I know about 40 local cachers in the area and only one goes on the forums.

Great point! We hardly represent "the average cacher" --who is out there finding a cache or two instead of mewling about it here. I'm the lone forum junkie on our neighborood of at least 40 cachers also.

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On another note, would anyone stop playing if their stats weren't public?

 

Oh, I'm absolutely certain there would be a few. Thing is, if anyone is going to quit over it then it may be likely they weren't geocaching, but simply "smilie collecting." I doubt anyone would miss them.

 

I think more than a few. I know that I wouldn't miss them, and I certainly wouldn't miss the stupid caches that they hide, but Groundspeak would probably miss the $ from their premium membership dues. Maybe that's the problem here?

 

My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations.

 

And it could be again if you will remove the primary motivation for making it about something else. Why not let some of us experiment with "No Stats"?

 

The way I see it, this site is at a crossroads. You can either:

 

a. let geocaching degenerate into a farce of lame caches and dubious logging practices

b. create and experiment with various ways to enforce rules to keep a from happening, or

c.

No Stats

 

It seems that this week we're going with b. I don't think that archiving and locking down so-called "pocket caches" is going to help things much. Which hole in the dike are you going to plug next? Owners logging their own caches? Multiple finds on events for temporary caches? Bonus finds on regular caches? Good luck with that. Realistically, I think you have to go with a or c. I'd like to choose for myself but that's your call.

 

FWIW, I don't see myself as a paying customer the next time my dues are up. The "smile collecting" folks are ruining this game for me. I gave up on the numbers a long time ago.

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Can TPTB install an option to double (or triple, or quintuple) my find count?

 

It won't bug me, but would obviously drive some members of the type-A, "remember when", narc-ing on the neighbors, geocaching community bonkers, which might be fun to watch. :rolleyes:

 

_________________________________________

Remember that bit from Caddyshack:

 

Judge Smails: Ty, what did you shoot today?

Ty Webb: Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.

Judge Smails: Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?

Ty Webb: By height.

_________________________________________

 

Numbers only matter if you are in competition with other people...if TPTB allow people to hide their numbers, I won't do it, but it won't change geocaching one bit for me, or for almost any other geocachers in the world.

 

Jamie - NFA

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Can TPTB install an option to double (or triple, or quintuple) my find count?

 

It won't bug me, but would obviously drive some members of the type-A, "remember when", narc-ing on the neighbors, geocaching community bonkers, which might be fun to watch. :(

 

_________________________________________

Remember that bit from Caddyshack:

 

Judge Smails: Ty, what did you shoot today?

Ty Webb: Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.

Judge Smails: Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?

Ty Webb: By height.

_________________________________________

 

Numbers only matter if you are in competition with other people...if TPTB allow people to hide their numbers, I won't do it, but it won't change geocaching one bit for me, or for almost any other geocachers in the world.

 

Jamie - NFA

 

:P:):D:rolleyes::(:D:D:D:):D

 

I like this idea even better than doing away with the stats entirely. If only I could chose my own find count without going through the trouble of finding parking lot micros or logging bogus finds, I'd put my height in that space.

 

:DMay 31 by Quest Master (71")

Found it! TNLN. TFTC.

 

I'm not kidding...

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