My Dnf Was Deleted

[+briansnat]

I would also point out the first thing on all my caches down there is a note in bold telling people about the thief and how I am addressing things with the cache. So if you knew the situation, why would you look for hours for it? I am warning people about the situation. So they know what the situation is like and if they choose to do the caches, they know the situation.

 

Does it really make sense to let the cache thief know exactly what is going on? Never mind that you are giving him the attention that he obviously craves and actually encouraging him.

 

Since your intent is to confuse him and make him work, if you know a cache has been stolen, post a maint note on the page saying you replaced it (even though you didn't) and maybe a log fake find from a sock account a day or two later.

 

I know this may throw off local geocachers, so if they post a subsequent DNF you can tell them to log a "found it" a few days later saying they came back and looked a little harder (and ask them to make no mention of your correspondence). Those who are uncomfortable with posting found its for caches they didn't find can always go back a few months later and delete them. This way legit DNFs can stand, people who want a smiley for making the effort can get theirs and this slimeball will be going after caches he already stole.

Edited May 17, 2006 by briansnat

[+Bean Blossom Gang]

Just a thought here .... but why can't GC.com just ban the offenders IP address. If he has three user names they should all have the same IP, he would be locked out, assuming he is only using one computer connection. If he created an accout elsewhere that might be more difficult, but go beyond the username, start collecting his IP's

 

The header on ANY private email he has sent directly to you is the best place to start.

 

www.whatismyipaddress.com

 

that should give you the information you need to understand what I am suggesting.

[Keystone]

Just a thought here .... but why can't GC.com just ban the offenders IP address. If he has three user names they should all have the same IP, he would be locked out, assuming he is only using one computer connection. If he created an accout elsewhere that might be more difficult, but go beyond the username, start collecting his IP's

 

The header on ANY private email he has sent directly to you is the best place to start.

 

www.whatismyipaddress.com

 

that should give you the information you need to understand what I am suggesting.

Groundspeak certainly uses IP address tools to the extent possible when investigating problems. But a smart cache thief knows about static vs. dynamic IP addresses, proxy servers, throwaway e-mail accounts, and all the other tricks to mask their true identity.

[Keystone]

I would also point out the first thing on all my caches down there is a note in bold telling people about the thief and how I am addressing things with the cache. So if you knew the situation, why would you look for hours for it? I am warning people about the situation. So they know what the situation is like and if they choose to do the caches, they know the situation.

 

I've been working on the wording for the caches. Here is what I have on it now:

 

<B> There is a problem with a cache thief in Southern IL who keeps stealing all the caches over and over again. We are pretty sure who it is. If you do not find the cache, do NOT post a did not find or anything in your log to indicate it is not there. Email me and let me know it is gone so I can get it replaced without alerting the thief. If you do something like take a picture of yourself or your GPS in the correct place or tell me about the spot, I won’t object to logging it as a find. I have also placed more than one container at some of the caches, so if you find more than one container, do NOT say anything about it in your log. While this won’t stop the thief, this will make things much more difficult for the thief.</b><p>

 

Here is what I am now thinking of changing it to:

 

<B> There is a problem with a cache thief in Southern IL who keeps stealing all the caches over and over again. We are pretty sure who it is. If you do not find the cache, do NOT post a did not find (DNF) or anything in your log to indicate it is not there. Email me and let me know it is gone so I can get it replaced without alerting the thief. I would appreciate people carrying a replacement container and log in case the thief has stolen the cache. If you replace it for me, sign the log, log a find and do NOT mention in the log you replaced the container, and email me that you replaced it. If you don’t have a container and are not pleased with not being able to log a find due to the thief, geocaching.com says you are not supposed to be able to log a find. But if you do something like take a picture of yourself or your GPS in the correct place or tell me about the spot, I am not the cache police and logging it as a find will help confuse the thief on the status of the cache. I have also placed more than one container at some of the caches, so if you find more than one container, do NOT say anything about it in your log. While this won't stop the thief, this will make things much more difficult for the thief.</b><p>

Just a note to indicate that I am not aware of any published rule, guideline or TOU that says "If you are not pleased with not being able to log a find due to the thief, geocaching.com says you are not supposed to be able to log a find." Cache owners and cache finders work out the rules and etiquette for logging. If Geocaching.com had logging rules, a number of high-profile forum threads wouldn't exist, would they?

 

IMHO, people should also be complaining to geocahing.com that they are not doing a better job helping cache owners dealing with cache thieves.

It's a website based in Seattle Washington that lists information about tupperware in the woods. Not a law enforcement agency. What would you have them do?

[+OzGuff]

I think folks are completely ignoring one of the most important pieces of information from this entire thread:

 

What were the results of the "Sexiest Men in Kansas Illinois" survey?

 

Bret: If it will help any, you are welcome to log DNFs on ALL of my caches! And post pictures too!!

 

Back on topic -- I have always felt that my logs (Finds, Notes, DNFs) are records of my experiences, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I would be pretty upset if a log of mine was deleted. I understand the cache owner's frustration at having caches stolen, but there has to be another way to deal with this other than deleting logs on the cache page. [Though I have no ideas.] The thief MUST be watching it so already has the info.

 

Oh well...

 

Best of luck to all concerned!

[+myotis]

Let me reply to several at once.

 

briansnat asked, "Does it really make sense to let the cache thief know exactly what is going on? Never mind that you are giving him the attention that he obviously craves and actually encouraging him." He also presented a slightly different twist on how to deal with it. First, thanks for the suggestion. I don't know what is the best way to deal with it. This is the best I can think of. I think your suggestion would also get the people who don't like my efforts to provide people quality caches in a very difficult situation upset too. I want to let him know for reasons I will only tell you off line as he may be reading this.

 

For the record, we know his 3 user accounts, we know his name, and we know the area he lives in. Geocaching.com won't ban him. So we have to use Plan B.

 

Keystone stated: "Just a note to indicate that I am not aware of any published rule, guideline or TOU that says "If you are not pleased with not being able to log a find due to the thief, geocaching.com says you are not supposed to be able to log a find." Cache owners and cache finders work out the rules and etiquette for logging. If Geocaching.com had logging rules, a number of high-profile forum threads wouldn't exist, would they?"

 

They have threatened to shut down my caches for me doing it. While I have told them I am not trying to convert it into a virtual cache, plan to promptly deal with a missing cache, and just trying to deal with the bad situation, I am told doing that makes it a virtual cache and that is not allowed. Dealing with the reviewers and geocaching.com is almost as frustrating as dealing with the thief. You would think they would be more understanding. CYBret's log is still locked on my cache page.

 

Keystone then asked, "It's a website based in Seattle Washington that lists information about tupperware in the woods. Not a law enforcement agency. What would you have them do?"

 

First I would have them be more supportive of the cache owners. There should be specific guidance that rules can be bent or waived in order to deal with a thief instead of bending the rules to make it harder to deal with the thief. For example, when you disable a cache because it is stolen again, they should give you more time to get it fixed than normal before they start to threaten to archive it because you have not replaced it fast enough for them.

 

They should also provide us more information to help identify the thief. For example, why should not we be able to know who is watching our caches or getting them in pocket queries?

 

They should also have a FAQ to give to cache owners on how to deal with a thief.

 

When you know who it is beyond a reasonable doubt and you have given the accused a chance to defend themselves, ban them.

 

Finally, use our dues to develop more technology to fight the thieves.

 

OzGuff stated:

 

"Back on topic -- I have always felt that my logs (Finds, Notes, DNFs) are records of my experiences, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I would be pretty upset if a log of mine was deleted. I understand the cache owner's frustration at having caches stolen, but there has to be another way to deal with this other than deleting logs on the cache page. [Though I have no ideas.] The thief MUST be watching it so already has the info."

 

As I said before, I have had caches stolen that no one was watching them. If I was going to steal caches, I would not point myself out by watching caches. I am betting he does not know that we have not been able to find out who is watching the caches.

 

Would you be upset at the thief or the person who has spent hundreds of hours trying to provide you a good time under very difficult circumstances? Should everyone share in the efforts to deal with the thief? Or is the cache hunters the only thing that matters? Others come across to me this way. When someone is stealing the caches over and over again, it is not a perfect world. You say you do not know a solution. I don't either. So is it right for the cache hunter to expect it is all about them and the heck with those who spent hundreds of hours trying to provide them a nice experience? IMHO, one who thinks their accuracy is more important than dealing with the thief should go cache somewhere where it can be all about them.

[+BruceS]

I really don't have a comment on the current situation with this cache except to say I hope Myotis can get it figured out. This cache was was my 100th find on November 3, 2001 and is still near the top of my list all time great caches. At that time the cache was configured a little differently than it is today but the crawl for me out to the point will always be remembered. (at that time there were two sources to get the location of the final, one on the point and one not quite so scary)

 

"November 3, 2001 by BruceS (5000 found)

This was my 100th cache found. I stopped on my way out to the point at the alternate as it was along the way. Then I crawled (literally crawled) my way out onto the point. Heights are not my thing. The view was aww inspiring and the views were aww inspiring. My feet felt like they were made of lead on my way out onto the point. Each step was done with great effort but I got there. Heart was pounding and did not even try to look for the cache on the point. Would not have been able to key the coordinates in anyway. Did sit on the rock on the point for a few minutes and the made my way back to the trail. What a great cache to seek for my 100th. Thanks Myotis - BruceS"

Edited May 17, 2006 by BruceS

[+wimseyguy]

He could go on wild goose chases. It is much harder to steal something if you do not know if it is there.

You could also be referring to the cachers who might want to find these caches. They could be going on wild goose chases. It's much harder to find something if it isn't there.

 

I'm sorry that your region is experiencing this behavior. If you know who it is and why they are doing this, perhaps you can reach some agreement with them that will allow caching life to return to normal? Surely they are motivated by something other than a desire to make you miserable?

 

geocaching.com is simply a listing site, not an enforcement agency. Reviewers merely review submitted caches to make sure they meet the guidelines and publish them so we can go out and try to find them. You have a legal issue with someone (whom you think you can identify) stealing your private property. You need to be working with law enforcement authorities on this, not programmers, volunteers, and web designers.

 

Organized cache theivery is a very small but annoying part of this sport. I really don't think that these programmers and web designers should be focusing development hours nor efforts to combat that issue. Better website functionality, service, and features is what I'm paying my membership $$'s for.

 

Deleting these DNF's is just plain wrong, and is not accomplishing what you think it is.

[Keystone]

Keystone stated: "Just a note to indicate that I am not aware of any published rule, guideline or TOU that says "If you are not pleased with not being able to log a find due to the thief, geocaching.com says you are not supposed to be able to log a find." Cache owners and cache finders work out the rules and etiquette for logging. If Geocaching.com had logging rules, a number of high-profile forum threads wouldn't exist, would they?"

 

They have threatened to shut down my caches for me doing it. While I have told them I am not trying to convert it into a virtual cache, plan to promptly deal with a missing cache, and just trying to deal with the bad situation, I am told doing that makes it a virtual cache and that is not allowed. Dealing with the reviewers and geocaching.com is almost as frustrating as dealing with the thief. You would think they would be more understanding. CYBret's log is still locked on my cache page.

Thanks for explaining what you meant; namely, that the website frowns upon the conversion of a cache to a virtual point of interest. You might consider revising your statement to say "If you are not pleased with not being able to log a find due to the thief, Geocaching.com says that allowing virtual finds is like converting this to a virtual cache, which they won't permit."

 

Keystone then asked, "It's a website based in Seattle Washington that lists information about tupperware in the woods. Not a law enforcement agency. What would you have them do?"

 

First I would have them be more supportive of the cache owners. There should be specific guidance that rules can be bent or waived in order to deal with a thief instead of bending the rules to make it harder to deal with the thief. For example, when you disable a cache because it is stolen again, they should give you more time to get it fixed than normal before they start to threaten to archive it because you have not replaced it fast enough for them.

The average timeframe for when a reviewer will bug a cache owner about a temporarily disabled cache is about two to three months. Typically if there is a good reason, more time is given before the cache would be archived. For example, if the cache page says it's disabled because of road construction nearby, the cache ought to be disabled for so long as the construction lasts. In the case of a cache thief problem, it's understandable that the owner may not want to disclose this on the cache page. If the reviewer leaves a note on that cache page, I suggest writing to the reviewer via e-mail to explain the situation and the plan for dealing with it.

 

They should also provide us more information to help identify the thief. For example, why should not we be able to know who is watching our caches or getting them in pocket queries?

This conflicts with Groundspeak's privacy principles. There are many reasons why people watchlist a cache or include it in a pocket query. Disclosing this information may lead to false accusations.

 

They should also have a FAQ to give to cache owners on how to deal with a thief.

Q: What should I do if there is a cache thief active in my area?

A: To the extent possible, ignore the thief. They crave attention for the disruption they create. The less attention paid to them, the better. Most of them lose interest and go away, especially if their actions are not seen as having any impact.

 

When you know who it is beyond a reasonable doubt and you have given the accused a chance to defend themselves, ban them.

You should forward the available information to Groundspeak and let them decide whether the evidence is conclusive (photographs, admissions, etc.) or circumstantial.

 

Finally, use our dues to develop more technology to fight the thieves.

If you have any specific suggestions, please feel free to post them.

[+woofiegrrl]

I'm asking this in all seriousness - have you talked to the thief?

[+myotis]

Yes I have and GeoJoe has much more. He is a nut case. He even thinks some of us are watching his house. He claims we do not have permission, thinks it is a National Park, etc. I've told him it is a National Forest, we have permission, who gave it, etc. He also claims they are all causing damage etc. which is not the case. If one of my caches was causing a problem, I would shut it down. I also recently talked to the Forest Supervisor about setting up an informal process for the Forest Service to review cache locations to make sure there is no problem with it and he thought that was a good idea. I've talked to GEOJoe and IL Adm about it but have been sidetracked dealing with this stuff.

 

I'm asking this in all seriousness - have you talked to the thief?

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Your problem wont go away this way. If he is a genuine nut case, at some point this can escalate into something quite harmful to a cacher. If he thinks people are watching his home, then he may take matters into his own hands with cachers and not just caches.

[+CheshireFrog]

Your problem wont go away this way. If he is a genuine nut case, at some point this can escalate into something quite harmful to a cacher. If he thinks people are watching his home, then he may take matters into his own hands with cachers and not just caches.

 

Agreed. This guy is unbalanced, and nothing good will come from pushing him.

[+Markwell]

IMHO, people should also be complaining to geocahing.com that they are not doing a better job helping cache owners dealing with cache thieves.

 

Ah, I see. Do you complain to the Yellow Pages when you get a prank phone call?

[+LLB Quest'ers]

After seeing the pics and realizing what a view this would be, I would have supported it being changed to a virtual and thus eliminating the stolen cache problem. But, on further contemplation, I realized that the no-mind who was stealing the caches would probably cut down that lovely tree and spoil the view so that no one could claim a photo of the cache.

Edited May 18, 2006 by LLB Quest'ers

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

IMHO, people should also be complaining to geocahing.com that they are not doing a better job helping cache owners dealing with cache thieves.

 

Ah, I see. Do you complain to the Yellow Pages when you get a prank phone call?

 

And, do you complain to Google search engine when a website listed in the results of a search turns out to have been hacked by hackers, bitterly telling them that it is their job as a search engine which lists billions of websites, to protect all of those websites against hackers?

 

What continues to amaze me here is that the cache owner has made an appearance on this forum and has repeatedly refused to implement the simple common-sense measures for each cache listing page which would stop this problem once and for all with a likely efficiency of over 98%. In fact, he has reacted with anger at the merest suggestions of such prophylactic measures, much as he has reacted with anger at almost anything else which has been said in this thread, as well as directing his anger repeatecly at the OP (Cybret) for imagined offenses. To me, this chronic pattern of behavior suggests that the cache owner may have an undisclosed (and perhaps unconscious) agenda or motive, or that there may be extant impairments or personal factors of which we are largely unaware. In the meanwhile, I would like to invoke the intercession of St. Jude, much as an earlier poster has already proposed. . .

 

And, in closing, I would like to respectfully request that either this thread be immediately closed or alternatively, that the cache owner's on-forum behavior be managed (i.e., moderated) more tightly by the moderators, since it appears that this thread is fast turning into a venue for unreasonable and unwarranted personal attacks, as well as specious arguments, launced by the owner of the cache in question. I do not think that the original poster (OP) nor subsquent posters deserve to be targets of this kind of behavior. If someone wants to rant or rage in an unreasonable fashion, there are entire foums where that is the accepted norm, including some forum threads at the site known as The Cacher's Sandbox.

[+Cow Spots]

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

To me, part of your responsibility as the owner of a cache is to make an honest effort to provide accurate information about the cache to prospective fellow geocachers.

 

This includes reasonably accurate coordinates and the current status of the cache, be it missing, damaged, or "good to go." Removing information that accurately reflects the current status of the cache, or the last known status of the cache, does a disservice to anyone that may seek it in the future.

 

Hey --- I sympathize with someone dealing with a cache maggot. But this one's cut and dried. Removing pertinent info about the status of a cache does more harm than good.

[+myotis]

Vinny & Sue Team,

 

You are the one making the personal attacks even after you said you were going to mind your own business. It would appear that you think if you talk about God and St. Jude it excuses your not acting like a Christian. I do not see how insulting and attacking someone who has spent hundreds of hours trying to provide others a good time is acting like a Christian. How many people who were spending their time to help others did Jesus attack and insult? You are invoking St. Jude. When did St. Jude accuse someone trying to do things for others of having "an undisclosed (and perhaps unconscious) agenda or motive, or that there may be extant impairments or personal factors of which we are largely unaware." Would Jesus say something like this or some of the other insults you have thrown at me?

 

Its people like you that make me wonder why I have not just given up and let the thief have their way of no caches down there. But fortunately, most people act like Jesus did. They show appreciation and support for the efforts those of us have made to try to provide good quality caches in a very difficult situation.

 

I also appreciate the many people on here who have made CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions and shown support for our efforts to provide people quality caches in a very difficult situation (as opposed to those who throw insults, don't know what the situation is, and just claim there is some simple solution without pointing it out).

 

IMHO, people should also be complaining to geocahing.com that they are not doing a better job helping cache owners dealing with cache thieves.

 

Ah, I see. Do you complain to the Yellow Pages when you get a prank phone call?

 

And, do you complain to Google search engine when a website listed in the results of a search turns out to have been hacked by hackers, bitterly telling them that it is their job as a search engine which lists billions of websites, to protect all of those websites against hackers?

 

What continues to amaze me here is that the cache owner has made an appearance on this forum and has repeatedly refused to implement the simple common-sense measures for each cache listing page which would stop this problem once and for all with a likely efficiency of over 98%. In fact, he has reacted with anger at the merest suggestions of such prophylactic measures, much as he has reacted with anger at almost anything else which has been said in this thread, as well as directing his anger repeatecly at the OP (Cybret) for imagined offenses. To me, this chronic pattern of behavior suggests that the cache owner may have an undisclosed (and perhaps unconscious) agenda or motive, or that there may be extant impairments or personal factors of which we are largely unaware. In the meanwhile, I would like to invoke the intercession of St. Jude, much as an earlier poster has already proposed. . .

 

And, in closing, I would like to respectfully request that either this thread be immediately closed or alternatively, that the cache owner's on-forum behavior be managed (i.e., moderated) more tightly by the moderators, since it appears that this thread is fast turning into a venue for unreasonable and unwarranted personal attacks, as well as specious arguments, launced by the owner of the cache in question. I do not think that the original poster (OP) nor subsquent posters deserve to be targets of this kind of behavior. If someone wants to rant or rage in an unreasonable fashion, there are entire foums where that is the accepted norm, including some forum threads at the site known as The Cacher's Sandbox.

[Keystone]

Myotis and Vinny, please use e-mail for your discussions about who is attacking whom, and Jesus and Saint Jude. The topic of this thread is what to do about a deleted DNF. Here is the question, once again, from the original post:

 

I’m well aware that the cache page belongs to the owner and they can delete whatever they want. I think that’s the way it should be, so I don't want to make trouble for this cache owner. But I really want my log and my pictures out there for others to see. What would you do? My thought at this point is to log the DNF on one of my own archived caches, post the pictures there, let people see them and read the story.

(Emphasis added)

[+myotis]

Cow Spots,

 

How many of your caches have been stolen and how many times?

 

How is telling people what the situation with the thief is not providing accurate information? When the caches get stolen after they are replaced there is no reasonable way to know if the cache is there. So it is not possible to provide accurate information on if the cache is there. While I could tell people when it is gone and replaced, that just makes it more likely it will not be there when someone looks for it.

 

You act like it is all about you as a cache hunter and all the burden of dealing with the thief should be on the cache owner. Why should not cache hunters share the burden of dealing with the thief?

 

No one is forcing you to go hunt caches there and no one is concealing the situation. Most people appreciate the hundreds of hours we have put into fighting the thief so they can have a good time. So would not the solution be people who do not appreciate the efforts to provide quality caches go find some other caches and stop complaining about our efforts to provide others a good time?

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

To me, part of your responsibility as the owner of a cache is to make an honest effort to provide accurate information about the cache to prospective fellow geocachers.

 

This includes reasonably accurate coordinates and the current status of the cache, be it missing, damaged, or "good to go." Removing information that accurately reflects the current status of the cache, or the last known status of the cache, does a disservice to anyone that may seek it in the future.

 

Hey --- I sympathize with someone dealing with a cache maggot. But this one's cut and dried. Removing pertinent info about the status of a cache does more harm than good.

[Keystone]

Myotis,

 

Cow Spots is entitled to express a contrary opinion to yours. Even if Cow Spots has never lost a cache to a thief, he is entitled to an opinion about this lost cache situation and its impact on finders. Telling Cow Spots to go find some caches and stop complaining is not adding much to the discussion. Please stick to debating the merits of what this community member had to say. Thanks.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Keystone

[+Cow Spots]

How many of your caches have been stolen and how many times?

Let's see. I'm listed as owner of 14 caches.

 

Of the three that have been archived --- one got stolen 3 times, and I chose to archive it because I felt that I had made a poor choice of location in retrospect. One was a co-hide with my brother that was archived after he left the area, and the third archival was due to the cache being buried by rising floodwaters.

 

Of my 11 currently active caches, I've had to replace 2 : 1 that was stolen, and one that was inadvertantly taken away by workers in the course of their duties.

 

Fortunately, I have never suspected a habitual cache thief --- just muggles, would be my guess.

 

How is telling people what the situation with the thief is not providing accurate information?

Telling people about a cache thief absolutely is proving accurate information. It's just not telling a hunter the full story.

When the caches get stolen after they are replaced there is no reasonable way to know if the cache is there. So it is not possible to provide accurate information on if the cache is there.

This is where a "temporarily disabled" option, or even a note is entirely appropriate - something to the effect of "The cache may have been stolen, and I will check this at my earliest opportunity and replace it if necessary."

 

While I could tell people when it is gone and replaced, that just makes it more likely it will not be there when someone looks for it.

You act like it is all about you as a cache hunter and all the burden of dealing with the thief should be on the cache owner. Why should not cache hunters share the burden of dealing with the thief?

Because it's your cache -- you chose to place it there, you chose to agree to maintain it, you chose to be responsible for it.

 

The only burden I share as a cache hunter to prevent a cache from being stolen is to rehide the cache as well as I found it, and in the cache of high-traffic areas, not to be too obvious to non-geocachers while searching for it. What other duties should I have for your cache?

 

No one is forcing you to go hunt caches there and no one is concealing the situation.

By listing the thief problem on the cache page, you are providing a caveat emptor to a prospective searcher. But by deleting pertinent information about the cache being missing or not, you're certainly concealing information, aren't you?

 

Most people appreciate the hundreds of hours we have put into fighting the thief so they can have a good time. So would not the solution be people who do not appreciate the efforts to provide quality caches go find some other caches and stop complaining about our efforts to provide others a good time?

 

You can't stop a thief that is determined enough. They can pay for premium membership. They can solve a puzzle. They can create a sock puppet to get the coordinates directly from you in email.

 

As I said previously, I absolutely sympathize with fighting the thief. My opinion is that there are better ways to handle it. It's my opinion that you should provide the best information you can about the cache.

 

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[+myotis]

He can express his opinion of how I should deal with it and I cannot express my opinion of how he should deal with it?

 

Why is not those who don't like the way we are trying to combat the thief not hunt our caches not a valid and reasonable solution?

 

Myotis,

 

Cow Spots is entitled to express a contrary opinion to yours. Even if Cow Spots has never lost a cache to a thief, he is entitled to an opinion about this lost cache situation and its impact on finders. Telling Cow Spots to go find some caches and stop complaining is not adding much to the discussion. Please stick to debating the merits of what this community member had to say. Thanks.

[+OzGuff]

Still waiting for the results of the survey...

[+myotis]

Cow Spots,

 

I am glad you agree (contrary to what some have asserted) there is no way to stop a determined thief.

 

You obviously have not had to deal with anything like we have and you gave up much easier than we did. If we gave up as easy as you did there would be no caches in the area. Is having no caches in the area a better situation that what currently exists?

 

You say, "Telling people about a cache thief absolutely is proving accurate information. It's just not telling a hunter the full story." How is that? I am telling them exactly what I am doing. When the thief steals the cache over and over, there is no way I can let anyone know for sure it is there. All I can do is try to make it more likely it is there. That is what I am trying to do.

 

You state, "My opinion is that there are better ways to handle it. It's my opinion that you should provide the best information you can about the cache."

 

Yes but you acknowledge he cannot be stopped. So what is your better way? I am providing the best information I can about the cache. The problem is you can never be sure it is there.

 

You state, "The only burden I share as a cache hunter to prevent a cache from being stolen is to rehide the cache as well as I found it, and in the cache of high-traffic areas, not to be too obvious to non-geocachers while searching for it. What other duties should I have for your cache?"

 

What about being more understanding of the situation? What about not helping the thief out by making it easier for him to know when he needs to go steal the cache?

 

 

How many of your caches have been stolen and how many times?

Let's see. I'm listed as owner of 14 caches.

 

Of the three that have been archived --- one got stolen 3 times, and I chose to archive it because I felt that I had made a poor choice of location in retrospect. One was a co-hide with my brother that was archived after he left the area, and the third archival was due to the cache being buried by rising floodwaters.

 

Of my 11 currently active caches, I've had to replace 2 : 1 that was stolen, and one that was inadvertantly taken away by workers in the course of their duties.

 

Fortunately, I have never suspected a habitual cache thief --- just muggles, would be my guess.

 

How is telling people what the situation with the thief is not providing accurate information?

Telling people about a cache thief absolutely is proving accurate information. It's just not telling a hunter the full story.

When the caches get stolen after they are replaced there is no reasonable way to know if the cache is there. So it is not possible to provide accurate information on if the cache is there.

This is where a "temporarily disabled" option, or even a note is entirely appropriate - something to the effect of "The cache may have been stolen, and I will check this at my earliest opportunity and replace it if necessary."

 

While I could tell people when it is gone and replaced, that just makes it more likely it will not be there when someone looks for it.

You act like it is all about you as a cache hunter and all the burden of dealing with the thief should be on the cache owner. Why should not cache hunters share the burden of dealing with the thief?

Because it's your cache -- you chose to place it there, you chose to agree to maintain it, you chose to be responsible for it.

 

The only burden I share as a cache hunter to prevent a cache from being stolen is to rehide the cache as well as I found it, and in the cache of high-traffic areas, not to be too obvious to non-geocachers while searching for it. What other duties should I have for your cache?

 

No one is forcing you to go hunt caches there and no one is concealing the situation.

By listing the thief problem on the cache page, you are providing a caveat emptor to a prospective searcher. But by deleting pertinent information about the cache being missing or not, you're certainly concealing information, aren't you?

 

Most people appreciate the hundreds of hours we have put into fighting the thief so they can have a good time. So would not the solution be people who do not appreciate the efforts to provide quality caches go find some other caches and stop complaining about our efforts to provide others a good time?

 

You can't stop a thief that is determined enough. They can pay for premium membership. They can solve a puzzle. They can create a sock puppet to get the coordinates directly from you in email.

 

As I said previously, I absolutely sympathize with fighting the thief. My opinion is that there are better ways to handle it. It's my opinion that you should provide the best information you can about the cache.

 

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[+Cow Spots]

Let's take this one at a time.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges by accusing me of 'giving up.' The one cache that I chose to archive since it kept disappearing was because I determined that I had placed it in too high traffic of an area. My fault, not a thief. I never suspected a cache maggot thief -- the cause was poor placement on my part. Two different situations entirely. Live and learn.

 

If you know it's not there, it's your responsibility to say so, and either correct the situation or archive the cache. Your approach might thwart the thief --- though I doubt it --- but if a cache isn't there, and you know it, you're affecting other cachers. Plain and simple.

 

Example : John Doe Cacher goes looking for a cache. He gets a DNF because the cache has been stolen by a thief. Joe Bob Cache Owner is aware that the cache has been stolen by a thief.

 

Who should John Doe Cacher be more irritated with, the thief, or Joe Bob Cache Owner, who knows it's gone and didn't say anything?

 

Perhaps a cache handled this way should be listed at a different website entirely -- maybecaching.com sounds like a good possibility. I _do_ sympathize with your problem, but I think you've got tunnel vision regarding the thief and might not be fully aware of the side effects.

 

Cow Spots,

 

I am glad you agree (contrary to what some have asserted) there is no way to stop a determined thief.

 

You obviously have not had to deal with anything like we have and you gave up much easier than we did. If we gave up as easy as you did there would be no caches in the area. Is having no caches in the area a better situation that what currently exists?

 

You say, "Telling people about a cache thief absolutely is proving accurate information. It's just not telling a hunter the full story." How is that? I am telling them exactly what I am doing. When the thief steals the cache over and over, there is no way I can let anyone know for sure it is there. All I can do is try to make it more likely it is there. That is what I am trying to do.

 

You state, "My opinion is that there are better ways to handle it. It's my opinion that you should provide the best information you can about the cache."

 

Yes but you acknowledge he cannot be stopped. So what is your better way? I am providing the best information I can about the cache. The problem is you can never be sure it is there.

 

You state, "The only burden I share as a cache hunter to prevent a cache from being stolen is to rehide the cache as well as I found it, and in the cache of high-traffic areas, not to be too obvious to non-geocachers while searching for it. What other duties should I have for your cache?"

 

What about being more understanding of the situation? What about not helping the thief out by making it easier for him to know when he needs to go steal the cache?

[+Prime Suspect]

IMHO, people should also be complaining to geocahing.com that they are not doing a better job helping cache owners dealing with cache thieves.

 

Ah, I see. Do you complain to the Yellow Pages when you get a prank phone call?

 

And, do you complain to Google search engine when a website listed in the results of a search turns out to have been hacked by hackers, bitterly telling them that it is their job as a search engine which lists billions of websites, to protect all of those websites against hackers?

 

 

As an analogy, that's more than a bit off base. This is more in line:

 

You look up an entry in the Yellow Pages and find a 24hr copy shop. Just what you need, since it's 4am and you need the copies by 6am. So you drive there, only to find the place is closed, and doesn't open for hours.

 

Later you contact the owner to find out what's going on. He says, "Oh, we were having too many break-ins. I figured the thief was using the Yellow Pages to find out which places were closed at night. So I called up Yellow Pages, and had my listing changed to show that we're open 24hrs. Great idea, right?"

 

"Have the break-ins stopped?"

 

"Well, no. But it's still a great idea, right?"

 

"Don't customers get P.O.ed when they drive all the way to your shop, and find you're not actually open?"

 

"Well, yeah. But it's still a great idea, right?"

 

Sheesh.

[+myotis]

Prime Suspect,

 

When you ignore the facts, it is easy to be critical of others.

 

Just how am I misleading someone on if the cache is there or not when I specifically tell people exactly what is happening. If you don't want to hunt the cache with the way the thief is being dealt with, no one is forcing you to. I am warning people exactly what to expect so it is not like being told incorrect information.

 

An analogy to what you want is you think the store owner has an obligation to help the thief out by leaving the door open for them.

 

 

As an analogy, that's more than a bit off base. This is more in line:

 

You look up an entry in the Yellow Pages and find a 24hr copy shop. Just what you need, since it's 4am and you need the copies by 6am. So you drive there, only to find the place is closed, and doesn't open for hours.

 

Later you contact the owner to find out what's going on. He says, "Oh, we were having too many break-ins. I figured the thief was using the Yellow Pages to find out which places were closed at night. So I called up Yellow Pages, and had my listing changed to show that we're open 24hrs. Great idea, right?"

 

"Have the break-ins stopped?"

 

"Well, no. But it's still a great idea, right?"

 

"Don't customers get P.O.ed when they drive all the way to your shop, and find you're not actually open?"

 

"Well, yeah. But it's still a great idea, right?"

 

Sheesh.

[Keystone]

The topic of this thread is what to do about a deleted DNF. Here is the question, once again, from the original post:

 

I’m well aware that the cache page belongs to the owner and they can delete whatever they want. I think that’s the way it should be, so I don't want to make trouble for this cache owner. But I really want my log and my pictures out there for others to see. What would you do? My thought at this point is to log the DNF on one of my own archived caches, post the pictures there, let people see them and read the story.

(Emphasis added)

Since I wrote that earlier today, I see that none of the posts are directly discussing how the OP might deal with his deleted DNF. I also see that there's a different thread opened where a constructive discussion of a possible logging alternative is taking place.

 

So, I am going to close this thread in favor of the other one.