Where's George Hates Geocaching

6.5k · September 25, 2005

I'm thinking that more people have came to Where's George? from geocaching.com than vice-versa.

I don't know. WG kicks geobills into a special file as well as notes on the the leaderboards geocache bills are excluded, and moves bills there when new hits meantion geocaching. I would think that has a lot of people that don't know saying, "whats a geocache"?

While gc.com only has a thing on the links page. Or you might get lucky and find a WG in a cache, or run across this thread (but I think thats rare).

Without some sort of survey or something, it would be difficult to figure out who funnels more traffic to who.

September 25, 2005

Where ever I chose to place MY money, I will place those dollars there, because Where's George? may have owned the stamps, but I own my money. That's what gets me, where does WG? come off telling me where to place my money. I understand their argument, but it's such a vast amount of ifs in the whole thing.

Where does Geocaching come off telling me where and how I place or remove caches? If I find something in the woods from geocaching, why should I leave it there, sign the log, trade some items, log it on the website, not throw it out..whatever? Becuase those are the rules of this game.

I'm not telling you where you can and can't put your money...I'm only telling you that if you choose to play the Where's George? game, then you must play by the rules or don't play. It's really quite simple.

And Where's George? doesn't own any stamps, so I'm not sure what that has to do with your argument.

1.1k · September 25, 2005

When I find a WG $ in a cache I call it.. "Lunch Money"

Same here!

September 25, 2005

:blink: Gee, I wonder how giant a rear end must be to support a giant pain.

300 or 400 lbs perhaps?

Would one be able to tell where the rear end stopped and the rest of the body began? :blink:

September 25, 2005

I've found a couple WG bills in caches. I think I've found the same number through cash transactions. If I find it in a cache, it probably will end up being used for lunch.

At any rate, almost every dollar I've logged on WG just seems to disappear off the face of the earth. Doesn't make me as excited about find a WG bill (but I keep on logging them and hoping...)

Bec

September 26, 2005

I have entered a number of WG bills and also only seen a fraction of them be reentered. Kind of makes you wonder just how useful of a currency tracking device WG really is...

8k · September 26, 2005

Where does Geocaching come off telling me where and how I place or remove caches? If I find something in the woods from geocaching, why should I leave it there, sign the log, trade some items, log it on the website, not throw it out..whatever? Becuase those are the rules of this game.

I'm not telling you where you can and can't put your money...I'm only telling you that if you choose to play the Where's George? game, then you must play by the rules or don't play. It's really quite simple.

Hi Hank,

I thought you weren't going to respond to this thread unless there were some new questions regarding Where's George policy regarding bill in geocaches :blink:

I don't think your problem is with geocachers. Your problem is with people who want to use Where's George for a different purpose than what you had in mind. My understanding is that, once upon a time, you wondered "What happens to this bill after I spend it?" So you created Wheresgeorge.com where you could register a bill and if, by some chance, someone down the line found this bill and went to wheresgeorge.com they could enter the zip code where the bill was now located. The problem began when you started to list the bills that had travelled the farthest or had been logged the most times. Now it became a contest and some people began circulating bills among a close circle of friends to put more mileage on these bills. So you came up with a rule that disallowed this practice. Soon people began putting Where's George bills into geocaches because these were a neat trade item. Some people began making the bills into travellers that had a goal of going from cache to cache. Since these bills are indistiguishible from bills that are passed around a circle of friends, it makes sense to ban these bills as well. However most bills that are put into geocaches do not have a goal. They are left like other trade items in a cache. The finder of the cache may decide to trade an item for the bill. They may decide to spend the bill or put it in another cache. There is a much higher likelihood that they will log the bill on Wheresgeorge.com than a bill in general circulation. To geocachers, leaving money as a trade item is very much natural circulation. I think a lot of geocachers don't understand the need to discriminate against bills that have visited geocaches.

And by the way, a better example of violating rules instead of stealing caches would be to say that you and a few friends from Where's George could hide a bunch of caches, get them listed on geocaching.com, and then log as many finds as you like on each others caches without having to actually go and find the caches. I think this is closer to type of "rule" violation you are saying happens at Where's George.

September 26, 2005

I've kept quiet on this issue so far, even though I am an avid member of both sites. I came to geocaching through W.G. when I went to a George gathering (think event cache) and some of the attendees were going caching afterwards. I tagged along, and have been hooked ever since.

So, that said, here's my two cents worth.

I don't think your problem is with geocachers. Your problem is with people who want to use Where's George for a different purpose than what you had in mind..... The problem began when you started to list the bills that had travelled the farthest or had been logged the most times. Now it became a contest and some people began circulating bills among a close circle of friends to put more mileage on these bills.

Very close. People do make a contest of it, and I personally have had to ask Hank a couple of times to remove hits from bills that were being traded around among family members.

If you wonder why, think of it this way.

You release a T.B. into a cache, you want to see where it goes in natural geocaching activity. Someone picks up the bug in Ohio, and mails it to their sister in Florida. That sister logs it into and out of a cache near her house, and mails it to her best friend in Montana. The best friend does her thing, then mails it to her Dad in Vermont.... then California, then Alaska.... and so on.

Now that bug is picking up some awesome miles, but that's not what you intended it to do! At some point you would find yourself frustrated enough to ask that the bug PLEASE be returned to geocaching activities. That's why me and others have had to ask Hank to remove these hits.

Soon people began putting Where's George bills into geocaches because these were a neat trade item. Some people began making the bills into travellers that had a goal of going from cache to cache.Since these bills are indistiguishible from bills that are passed around a circle of friends, it makes sense to ban these bills as well....

OK, just to clarify something here, the word ban has been thrown around way too much here. Geocaching bills are not banned, they are just tagged a geobills so that they don't show up in the reports. Even when I asked Hank to clear some entries on a bill that was OBVIOUSLY being passed around, he only banned any further hits on it as a temporary measure. Some time later that bill was re-enabled and it has since recieved another hit, this time a legitimate one.

I want to repeat the important part there.... Geocaching bills are not banned, they are just tagged a geobills so that they don't show up in the reports

The reason he needed to do this is that there is a top ten bills report on W.G. that shows the top bills for # of entries. Geocache bills would take up all ten spots in that report if he hadn't done it. For those of us who look at that report sometimes just to see how bills get around, those bills don't really tell us much at all.

When I started geocaching, I put georges in a lot of caches. I also hit georges I found in caches on a regular basis. While I still OCCASIONALLY put a W.G. in a cache, it's usually because I find myself without swag when my kids want to trade something. And since ALL the money in my wallet is usually georged, I don't have the option of of leaving an unmarked bill.

As far as hitting georges from geocaches, I still do it if I do not recognize the markings on the bill. As Hank has already pointed out, there are times when you don't need W.G. to tell you where a bill has been. I know the marking styles of my fellow georgers in this state pretty well, so when I see marking from a georger/geocacher who lives 30 miles away in a cache I hit, then I ALREADY know where that bill came from and how it came to be there. There is no need for me to hit it.

The bills I do hit from caches are always returned to natural circulation after I hit them.

What all this rambling I've done is all about is to point out that the two sites can co-exist peacefully, as I've caching for almost a year and Georging for 2.5 years, and I'm having a blast with both. As long as people don't try to go overboard, it's not a big deal.

If you find a bill in a cache, log it on W.G. but then spend it instead of returning it to a cache. That will keep that bill from getting 20 hits in 3 months as it moves from cache to cache.

Hank is just trying to maintain some semblence of order on his site. I'd do the same if I was him.

Now, I'll shut up and go back to lurking.... lol.

September 27, 2005

The problem began when you started to list the bills that had travelled the farthest or had been logged the most times.

Just to clarify (and on my FAQ page because people ask for it all the time), I never had a "farthest" or "fastest" bill report, specifically because people would attempt to spoof the report. I do have a "most entered bills" report, though, and occasionally people attempt to send a bill around to get on that list, and I usually delete all the entries and block the bill from further entry. But spoofing a "furthest" and/or "fastest" bill is easy to do, so therefore it's not tracked or reported.

And thanks for your better example of a GC rule violation. Since I really don't do GC, I had to punt for my examples.

September 27, 2005

anything with pictures of dead presidents is always welcome in my cache!!!

:lol: :laughing: :lol:

Edited September 27, 2005 by horseshoe cachers

38.2k · September 27, 2005

anything with pictures of dead presidents is always welcome in my cache!!!

Even an encyclopedia?

2.5k · October 9, 2005

Okay, I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here but I want to know something.

There is a Where's George dollar in one of my caches. I'm real curious about it, but should I leave it for the other cachers. I woulden't mind getting it myself, but I'm not to sure weather to put it into another cache, or spend it and see where it goes. Around where I live, people don't look at thier money, it could dissapear into someones wallet for months, much less get logged. I think it has better chances in a cache.

I just want some info on Where's George and caching.

3k · October 9, 2005

Here's what you need to know.

24.7k · October 9, 2005

WG dollars in caches tend to be treated like trave bugs. This is 100% natural circulation of a bill given that geocaching.com and wheresgeorge.com exist in todays world. However Mr. WG wants to track bills as if WG.com didn't exist to track bills. This is impossible, however the travel bug effect that the WG and GC sites create make it worse in his eyes. Therefore he has created a rule that WG bills in caches are not natural circulation and so they don't count in certain stats and are strongly discouraged.

Translated, WG.com would be happier if that bill languished in someones wallet because they never looked at money. If you got the bill out of your cache you are supposed to go spend it immediatly (again unatural, because you are doing that entirly to break the travel bug effect but doing it entirly because of the WG sites rules) and get it back into circulation.

In other words either snag it and spend it or don't worry about it.

Edited October 9, 2005 by Renegade Knight

2.5k · October 9, 2005

I need to check on that cache in the near future, I believe I'll just leave it in there.

The "Where's George hates geocaching" thread is huge, I skimmed some but definitely couldn't read all 6 pages. Tracking money that way is a novel idea, but just it's very existence alters it's own purpose. The first thought I had when I seen a WG dollar in my cache was to get it and spend it to see where it went, that is no more natural than it being in the cache.

October 9, 2005

Don't foget that trackers is not limited just to geocaching and money.

Bookcrossing.com

24.7k · October 9, 2005

...just it's very existence alters it's own purpose....

You are a quick learner.

October 9, 2005

it's very existence alters it's own purpose.

Or, like Schrödinger's cat, the act of observation alters its reality.

Whoa...

38.2k · October 9, 2005

When I find a WGeorge, I log it in at WG.COM and spend it. I personally see no problem with them in caches. In fact when I travel I use WGeorges as trade items because they are easy to carry and flexible (i.e. if I see something nice I want to trade out, I can leave 4 or 5).

Its when they travel from cache to cache and never leave that they become an issue.

2.5k · October 9, 2005

Sounds cool, I migh get into it later. I think my caches are somewhat lacking in swag, a WG dollar in there might draw someone out to visit it.

October 10, 2005

When I find a WGeorge, I log it in at WG.COM and spend it. I personally see no problem with them in caches. In fact when I travel I use WGeorges as trade items because they are easy to carry and flexible (i.e. if I see something nice I want to trade out, I can leave 4 or 5).

Its when they travel from cache to cache and never leave that they become an issue.

I agree, if I find one, I keep it moving and spend it, so it can be logged. Since I had read the other WGeorge thread some time ago, I created an account on their site and am trying to abide by their rules. I'm finding them as fun as travel bugs.

October 10, 2005

...just it's very existence alters it's own purpose....

You are a quick learner.

Isn't that response a bit simple? Anything you do to measure something disturbs the thing you are measuring. This shows up in every measurement made of any nature from physcial measurements to those of psychology. Of course the measurement of the movement of money will alter that movement.

On the other hand, using money as a non-monetary item is not a "natural" movement of money. I'm not sure what "natural" means, but the point is that WG wants to track money being spent, not money being used as game pieces.

Is that really hard to grasp and appreciate? It seems like the WG guy gets no respect around here (in violation of the rules). ;-)

38.2k · October 10, 2005

On the other hand, using money as a non-monetary item is not a "natural" movement of money. I'm not sure what "natural" means, but the point is that WG wants to track money being spent, not money being used as game pieces.

Isn't that response a bit simple? People put money in caches all the time. If you trade a sharpie pen for a dollar at a cache that is part of that dollar's "natural circulation". If the point of WG is to track the natural circulation of a bill, then deliberately witholding it from a cache simply because its registered on the WG site is counter to supposed intent of WG.

October 10, 2005

My take from the WG thread was that it's not so much "natural" vs "un-natural" as it's supposed to be that you randomly spend/release the bill and then wait for someone else to log it to see where it went. His problem seemed to be that you aren't supposed to use the site to capture every movement of the bill, but rather how many times it gets logged in independently.

It seems to me like it measures how often people can be directed to a website, more than anything to do with currency circulation.

Bottom line--it's his site, he get's to make the rules. And he was very gracious, considering some of the responses he got.

October 10, 2005

i like 'em cause there cash, and they spend just like money. :rolleyes:

October 10, 2005

On the other hand, using money as a non-monetary item is not a "natural" movement of money. I'm not sure what "natural" means, but the point is that WG wants to track money being spent, not money being used as game pieces.

Isn't that response a bit simple? People put money in caches all the time. If you trade a sharpie pen for a dollar at a cache that is part of that dollar's "natural circulation". If the point of WG is to track the natural circulation of a bill, then deliberately witholding it from a cache simply because its registered on the WG site is counter to supposed intent of WG.

That's YOUR definition of natural. I think you know as well as I do why WG doesn't want to include cached money in his stats. There may be a few bills that were left in trade, but once you put that WG.com name on it, many people will treat it as a travel bug and deliberately run it around caches rather than spend it. IIRC, WG even invalidates listing of bills that are not part of caching, but have been passed between family members or friends to get as many hits as they can. I seem to recall that some people will post that on the description.

October 10, 2005

i like 'em cause there cash, and they spend just like money.

Thanks, Yogi. AFLAC! <_<

October 10, 2005

WG even invalidates listing of bills that are not part of caching, but have been passed between family members or friends to get as many hits as they can. I seem to recall that some people will post that on the description.

Does the guy that runs WG still accept and log stamped money he receives in the mail as FOG payments, and does he still mail those bills back out to other FOGs? How about those special bills that are circulated (via the mail or face-to-face meetings) only among an elite group of "Georgers?" Does he still participate in that? I'd wager an unstamped, unlogged dollar bill that none of those bills has been invalidated.

8k · October 10, 2005

WG even invalidates listing of bills that are not part of caching, but have been passed between family members or friends to get as many hits as they can. I seem to recall that some people will post that on the description.

Does the guy that runs WG still accept and log stamped money he receives in the mail as FOG payments, and does he still mail those bills back out to other FOGs? How about those special bills that are circulated (via the mail or face-to-face meetings) only among an elite group of "Georgers?" Does he still participate in that? I'd wager an unstamped, unlogged dollar bill that none of those bills has been invalidated.

I would take you up on that wager except for one thing. It is easy for Where's George to identify bills that have been in geocaches because people will usually state in their logs, "Found in geocache GCxxxx". I seriously doubt that Hank logs bills he receives as FOG payments. If he does its because they meet his definition of "natural" circulation. As for other abuses, he has invalidated these bills when he can identify them.

By the way, bills found in geocaches can still be tracked on Wheresgeorge.com. These bill are simply removed from the list of bills that have the most logs. This is because if geocached bill were included, all the top logged bills would be geocached bills. I still think it is strange that the $5 Where's George bill that I got in change at a pizza parlor and later spent is probably listed as a geocached bill because I logged "Got this bill in change at a geocaching event GCxxxx" <_<

October 10, 2005

When I see a WG bill in a cache, I just leave it. Too much hassle to log it on the WG site.

I don't think it's too much hassle at all. I like WG bills. I started a micro specifically as a WG trading spot. As for "skewed" data... no such thing. Data is data, and leaving a bill marked as a WG or not marked will not change that bill's circulation. Actually, it's providing another data point to track bills, not "skewing" the data.

October 10, 2005

I like WG bills. I started a micro specifically as a WG trading spot. As for "skewed" data... no such thing. Data is data, and leaving a bill marked as a WG or not marked will not change that bill's circulation. Actually, it's providing another data point to track bills, not "skewing" the data.

October 10, 2005

As for "skewed" data... no such thing. Data is data, and leaving a bill marked as a WG or not marked will not change that bill's circulation.

Yes, a bill with or without a WG mark is not going to skew the data much...

Actually, it's providing another data point to track bills, not "skewing" the data.

But the issue that this thread is about is not about whether a bill is marked or not..it's about the un-natural circulation (as far as my website rules are concerned) of bills in and out of geocaches specifically for the purpose of logging geocaches, and not tracking natural circulation, as defined on WG. Therefore, WG bills that travel in this manner DO skew MY data, as I HAVE defined it.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Where's George?

2.5k · October 10, 2005

Okay WG, I have a thread currently active about your dollars. It called, Where's who?, GEORGE. How about I hear from you on what you want me to do with the WG bill in my cache.

October 10, 2005

Okay WG, I have a thread currently active about your dollars. It called, Where's who?, GEORGE. How about I hear from you on what you want me to do with the WG bill in my cache.

If it's in your possession, it's YOUR dollar. Log it on the WG website if you want to, and/or return the dollar to circulation in any manner you deem appropriate.

October 10, 2005

Does the guy that runs WG still accept and log stamped money he receives in the mail as FOG payments, and does he still mail those bills back out to other FOGs? How about those special bills that are circulated (via the mail or face-to-face meetings) only among an elite group of "Georgers?" Does he still participate in that? I'd wager an unstamped, unlogged dollar bill that none of those bills has been invalidated.

Those bills sent to me in the mail are spent without being re-entered.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Where's George?

October 10, 2005

Those bills sent to me in the mail are spent without being re-entered.

How recently did you embrace that practice?

October 10, 2005

nevermind. (wrong thread)

Edited October 10, 2005 by Where's George?

October 10, 2005

Ok, I know the other thread is huge, but if you scan it for my comments, you'll get the gist of my points which I would rather not start all over again here. It's all well hashed out in that thread.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...pic=108361&st=0

2.2k · October 10, 2005

Merging a new WG? topic with the current (and longer) one.

2.5k · October 10, 2005

Thanks Quiggle, I was going to close my topic, but now it can still be valid.

----------------------------

Okay Hank, I can see how WG dollars in caches can be annoying to your cause. I think tracking money is an interesting idea and I may play along if I get the chance. The WG dollar in my cache may come out if it is still there when I do maintance.

We don't have to do anything, we don't have to play along, but in the consideration of being civil and freindly to eachother, why rock someone elses boat. WG is doing the same thing with dollar bill's as we do to TB's, and we really hate it when a muggle takes a White Jeep TB thinking it's a toy.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Airmapper

38.2k · October 10, 2005

still think it is strange that the $5 Where's George bill that I got in change at a pizza parlor and later spent is probably listed as a geocached bill because I logged "Got this bill in change at a geocaching event GCxxxx"

I don't think the mere fact the log mentions a bill was found or placed in a geocache will cause it to be marked as a geocaching bill. They seem to get that designation once they've been moving from cache to cache a few times.

For instance, here is a bill I found in a geocache that was not registered on WG. I registered it and released it. Here is another.

Here is one that was registered and started its life in a geocache, but found its way into the wild.

Note that none are marked as geocaching bills, nor should they be.

Now here is a bill that has been moving from cache to cache like a TB. This the kind of movement that ticks off Hank and many Georgers and would cause it to be tagged as a Geocaching bill.

October 10, 2005

I don't think there is anything wrong with that last example.

I thought the big problem that got Hank's shorts in a knot were WG dollar bills actually being used like travel bugs ... like the WG dollars that were glued to the front of CD cases and used to track the enclosed CD, or the WG dollars that were encased in blocks of lucite, or the serial numbers and series from WG dollars that one guy engraved on his homemade jewelry/art objects to track their movements. Clearly, all of those examples violate the spirit of the WG game.

October 11, 2005

NOW I remember why I avoid the forum.

I read most of the first three pages, and skimmed the rest. I believe I am the culprit cited in Example 2. Thanks to Pto for "assuming" a Minnesota cacher was involved.

Here is my travel bug that caused problems. I did NOT threaten lawsuits, so it must have been someone in Arizona.

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=12847

Hank, I used to be *Metro Transit* on your site. Recently I changed my name to *King Boreas*

I am not arguing the "image" issue either. I've gotten over the death of this bill.

I don't remember your words about Wild George upthread, but I think they were not appropriate. It truly was an honest mistake, IMHO.

NOW, can you give me a link, or explain how activity like this is allowed:

http://www.wheresgeorge.com/user_profile_p...d2a932c90a3462e

Nov.8,2004-Held our first Basketball Tournament this weekend- 2500 paying customers,Georges flying all over the place!

OCT.28,2004-Gone Racin'-"Atlanta Motor Speedway"-(Nascar). Gonna' spend 1200 bucks-All ones.

6.5k · October 11, 2005

Hank, I used to be *Metro Transit* on your site. Recently I changed my name to *King Boreas*

Your metro transit?! Never knew that :rolleyes:

(have nothing else to add)

October 12, 2005

I sent out some email to get some prize donations for an event cache we are holding and I got this reply from Where's George:

------->Reply from: Hank (Sep-10-05)

Geogcaching is a giant pain in my rear-end due to the manner in which

people use WG bills as cache items, totally screwing up my system which

was not designed or intended for that purpose. No way in hell would I

support any geocaching activities.

What is is up with that? If seems Goecahing and Where's George should go hand and hand.

How interesting. my question would then be why did this guy ever begin WG, a game that involves finding bills anywhere.............? And documenting them on a website. :mad:

October 12, 2005

why did this guy ever begin WG

money

The site is ruined with ads everywhere, and multiple monotonous pop-ups.

October 12, 2005

I did WG before I even found out about GC. I thought WG was totally lame. I logged bill after bill after bill and I think one of my bills turned up once. Rarely do my bills turn up anywhere. At least when combined with GC you can reasonably expect your bill will go somewhere and that you'll see it logged at some point.

I've stopped logging WG bills because the 20 seconds it takes to log the bill isn't worth the 5 seconds of joy I *might* have in 22 years when its one and only new log comes up.

October 12, 2005

Yeah, I agree that WG is not the most rewarding experience I've ever had. I don't see many WG bills and I have entered about 30 or more and only had some 5 or 6 hits in three or four years. Pretty lame.

I spent a half hour working out how to tape bills to a piece of 8.5" x 11" paper and printed a WG line on about 10 $20 bills a few months ago. I don't think one of them has been logged yet. :mad: If WG actually garnered a little interest from the public I think it would be pretty fun to see where a given bill has gone. In fact you could get people to sign the bill and see if it ever returns.

October 12, 2005

why did this guy ever begin WG

money

The site is ruined with ads everywhere, and multiple monotonous pop-ups.

The ads are annoying, but I think all the stupid sub-games based on ridiculous and easily faked/manipulated stats are what really ruined the WG game for a lot of people. I guess Hank hasn't noticed all those bills that regularly receive hits by "uber-Georgers" thousands of miles apart. Yes siree Bob; Hank really cleaned up WG. :mad: But the small number of bills circulated via geocaches are going to ruin the sanctity of the WG stats and game. :mad:

Edited October 12, 2005 by Skovar

6.5k · October 12, 2005

Yeah, I agree that WG is not the most rewarding experience I've ever had. I don't see many WG bills and I have entered about 30 or more and only had some 5 or 6 hits in three or four years. Pretty lame.

Yea the averages really suck, but if you stopped entering new bills wouldn't your hits go down even more? (after the very few entered ones get worked out that is)

Its like saying 'noones hiding caches in 'my' area, so I'm not gonna hide any either' :unsure:

Where's George Hates Geocaching

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