Logging The Stinky Ones.

3k · February 25, 2005

Its interesting that this thread grew out of the DPM thread. That thread was initiated because someone logged the very rude 'DPM TNLN TFN'.

Its gratifying to see that most would not do such a thing.

Does that mean you're going to lock it soon?

24.7k · February 25, 2005

If you eat at my table and whine about the meal, guess who's cooking next?

I'm sure this applies to logging caches somehow...

10.1k · February 25, 2005

Okay. I'll admit that I've set out a few cache and dashes, but they are in scenic areas...

That being said, I have logged "Another senseless drive by geocaching." And: "The recycling center next door was more interesting." But I was told that that was rude, so I changed it... Hee hee hee. Maybe the soccer field is more interesting in the spring time. Each to his own. Found it. Got the smiley. Didn't care much for it. Oh, well.

20.7k · February 25, 2005

Does that mean you're going to lock it soon?

I figure that it will wander away all by itself.

3k · February 25, 2005

Does that mean you're going to lock it soon?

I figure that it will wander away all by itself.

LMAO, yeah right.

February 25, 2005

the only times i have complained on a cache page are when i either almost or did get arrested for attempting said cache ala

March 5, 2004 by mufasa1023 (73 found)

i found the cache at 6:30pm on friday after work....there were a group of kids playing in the parking lot and several more down the street....so i waited in my truck for 20 minutes waiting for the kids to leave....i called a few people on my cell and pulled out some paper work from work to do....finally as it was getting dark i ran over and got the cache, i even walked on the side of the sign opposite of the kids playing basketball down the street. I grabbed the cache and hiked on back to my truck.....signed my name and notes and ran back to rehide the cache. Afterwards i got back in my truck and got ready to leave. As i began to drive away two cop cars came around the corner and motioned for me to stop.....they came up to my window and asked me what i was doing and where i was going and why i was hanging out by myself near where a couple of little kids were playing. So i explained that I was waiting for a friend and it was just a convenient place to park while waiting. In no uncertain terms they told me to never wait there again and told me to get lost. So basically someone called the cops on me for hanging out at an elementry school. May not be the best place for a cache in todays society.

1.3k · February 25, 2005

I have not yet hidden a cache, but I got an ammo box for my birthday, (I'm sure SOMEBODY is now groaning, "Oh, no not ANOTHER LAME AMMO BOX?!") so I hope to get one out there soon. I have to tell you that if I find a lot of rude comments in the logs (online or logbook) I would think twice before wasting my time placing another one for unappreciative, obnoxious cachers.

Placing caches is what allows this sport/game/hobby to continue. Being rude to cache placers who are allowing you to continue playing is unfathomable to me.

DPM? The dead clams? Who came up with that? How could anyone think logging this is acceptable behavior?

If the practice of ridiculing others for "lame" caches catches on, it won't be too long before people stop playing this game.

20.7k · February 25, 2005

Thanks for your comment. I think it gives a valuable counter-point to those that think they are doing the game a service by being brutal in their logs.

3k · February 25, 2005

I have not yet hidden a cache, but I got an ammo box for my birthday, (I'm sure SOMEBODY is now groaning, "Oh, no not ANOTHER LAME AMMO BOX?!") so I hope to get one out there soon. I have to tell you that if I find a lot of rude comments in the logs (online or logbook) I would think twice before wasting my time placing another one for unappreciative, obnoxious cachers.

First of all, Happy Birthday!

I'm confident that if you do a good job when placing your cache in terms of location and imagination, you won't have to worry about getting rude reviews. That's been my experience on the caches I've placed, anyway. All two of them.

And I think it's great that somebody gave you an ammo box for your birthday! What a great gift! Seriously.

February 25, 2005

I have no idea what "DPM" stands for. I do agree with those who say "give an idea of what the cache is like in your logs" and let other visitors decide that it's crappy.

If I went to a cache site that really, really sucked, I'd probably post a log something like this:

We searched for about an hour but could not find this cache, despite getting readings of 3 ft. and less.

I won't have a chance to come back for a long time, but this cache site definitely needs some Cache In, Trash Out attention. The gazebo seems to have been torched and vandalized (there was still police tape on it-- I don't think it was an accident, sadly), and there are broken liquor bottles everywhere. We could have trashed out a 55-gallon drum worth of trash and still not been done.

I hope the cache is still there, and encourage everyone going to search for it to bring a sturdy sack and gloves to CITO some of that garbage away!

Oddly, I really enjoyed this cache non-find experience, because it was my first time geocaching with my mother, and it meant she got to learn that they're not all great, and you don't always find what you're looking for (she later returned and found that cache). But if I'd been out on my own or with someone who wasn't new to the sport, we would probably have agreed that it kind of sucked.

When I've been to a cache that could be better if it had some owner-attention, or the coordinates were way off, I include in my logs that it needs owner-attention, though I try to be vague, especially when the attention needed is to repair damage that affects the cache's camouflage, and if the coordinates are off, I'll say "we found it about 50' off of where the coordinates zero'ed out. Might be time for someone to re-verify the coords."

In critiquing writing, I like to say something positive and something constructive (the "needs work" comment-- it's like a negative comment, only with advice instead of raw complaining). If you don't like the stop-and-grab ones, can you comment on what you do like about that cache? Was it challenging because of muggles? Was it a nice, familiar, easy cache type? If you think the cache sucked, what would you say "needs work"? Look around-- would you have hid the cache somewhere nearby, but better? You might not want to put that in the log note, but certainly email it to the hider so they know what they could do to improve it.

But most of all, if you go to a cache that sticks out in your mind as being really good or really bad, post a longer log and talk about your experience, for good or for ill. That log really is your memento of your experience, and it's something that shares your geocaching moment with others.

One of our most infamous caches around here is "Call before digging" which includes the log entry from a couple of well-known cachers who found hundreds of ticks on themselves after going into the brush to get the cache, and for days afterwards. The logs for the next month or two are full of tick counts as later visitors mentioned how many they got or didn't get on themselves (it seems Joanie and Marky cleared out most of the ticks when they visited-- most logs following say fewer than 70 per person.....)

20.7k · February 25, 2005

It was nice of J&M to help out.

February 25, 2005

Yeah-- and their logs, though full of horror stories about the ticks, make me want to visit the cache. Hey, at least I know what to prepare for, and can make an appointment in advance for my Lyme's vaccine....

February 25, 2005

One of my most recent post for a parking lot cache:

I was meeting Polgara near here to find some real caches and she drug me over to this one. Ahhhhh, your classic parking lot cache. We tried to look like employees so people wouldn't wonder what we were doing there. Thank goodness Polgara found it in about 2 seconds, maybe the security cameras didn't notice us much. We both hiked the 3 steps back to our car while we left our marks. I was impressed that there was a pencil to write with. That was nice! Then we had to wait another 20 minutes until employees stopped coming and going before Polgara could returned it. Boy did we get some stupid looks.

It was a relief to be finally heading out of there and back toward the hills and coal mines. Thanks for the reminder of why I hate caches like this.

Salvelinus

I wish more people left logs like this. I hate doing caches that are in conspicuous or dangerous areas. Last weekend we found a cache hidden on the back of a sign on a busy rural road. There was no place to safely park and there was nothing to look at in the area. We drove all the way out to the area to see a stupid "do not enter" sign. Everyone who had posted before us were saying things like "cute idea" or "great idea". I ended up posting:

Traffic moves fast back here and there's not much room to safely park (just so people are aware - it might not be that safe for very little kids). Signed log.

I just couldn't be as diplomatic as the rest of the guys I guess....

3.2k · February 25, 2005

Yeah, I'm new to geocaching. New cachers have something that old timers don't. We have a fresh and excited outlook on a new hobby. With that said, why do you have to say anything about a "lame" cache? I tell my 5 year old that sometimes we find good treasure and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we don't find anything. But you know what? Every cache I have been to has given me time with my kids. Someday they will be too cool or too busy to hang out with me. That's ok because it's part of growing up. But right now I am their hero. Even in a parking lot while we are looking for a "lame" micro. Every second counts my friends. One day I'll have hundreds of finds and I might be upset with lame caches, but right now I am new and still have a fresh outlook. Any cache that gets me and my kids out together is cool by me.

That's my $0.02 worth and I want my change.

You got the point of it in four months that some folks that have been around since day one are still missing. Different cache styles attract different people. I try to offer a variety in my area. One has been called too difficult. It probably is for a lot of cachers. I have one parking lot micro. I am sure it will be called lame by someone. However both have been thoroughly enjoyed by at least one cacher which to me makes them worthwhile. The descriptions give enough information for people to chose wisely whether or not it is a cache for them. My complaint is with descriptions that give the impression that it is a great cache... great park... etc... and when you get there it is behind a porta-johnny along a dog walk.

20.7k · February 25, 2005

As much as it is off topic, dog friendly plus restroom facilities; sounds like a good location to me.

Edited February 25, 2005 by sbell111

8.9k · February 25, 2005

This cache is an example about how people handled this issue in our area. Read the logs.

Fried

Random Thoughts

Random Thought #1

Interesting.

On that cache, here's some portions of the logs: "Good job on your first hide." "Thank's for the hunt it was fun."

Random Thought #2

My comment in the original thread was not a call for a laundry list of feel-good expressions to put on caches. It was more to get people thinking. Everyone has a cache that is their least favorite. If you have a most favorite than you have a least favorite. You may have still enjoyed that cache immensely, but it was not as much fun. There is a good way and a bad way to log this cache.

Random Thought #3

I've heard the terms "jaded" and "elitist" bandied about. Maybe that is the case with some cachers. I know I have gleened my criteria for what I feel makes a good cache. I have about five characteristics that if the cache meets any one, I consider it fun. If it meets two or more of those criteria, even better. If it meets none, I probably didn't enjoy myself very much.

Random Thought #4

Defining lame or even good caches is not why I posed the question in the thread. It was to maybe get people thinking about ways in which they could comment on what they considered were problems with a cache without putting something cryptic like DPM on a cache. The problem usually comes with thin-skinned cache owners will reflexively delete even the slightest disparaging remark in a log.

Random Thought #5

Tact is a rare talent these days. Maybe a couple of pages giving examples on how to tactfully indicate that a particular cache was not your particular favorite and how to best express that in the logs will go a long way.

Random Thought #6

The thread is quickly degenerating into the

"You can tell me what's Bad."
"All caches like X, Y, Z are bad and deserve a slow painful death."
"If you don't like caches like G, H and I, don't do them."
"That's what ignore lists are for."
"How can I ignore bad caches if I don't know what they're like until I get there."

:huh:

20.7k · February 25, 2005

Markwell's right. On topic, or dead thread.

5k · February 25, 2005

Everyone has a cache that is their least favorite. If you have a most favorite than you have a least favorite.

Markwell, you just gave me a new idea for the new bookmarks.

Jamie's top 10%, and

Jamie's bottom 10%

I think that could be fun.

Jamie

8.9k · February 25, 2005

Everyone has a cache that is their least favorite. If you have a most favorite than you have a least favorite.

Markwell, you just gave me a new idea for the new bookmarks.

Jamie's top 10%, and

Jamie's bottom 10%

I think that could be fun.

Jamie

I know you're probably kidding, but for the benefit of others:

If you know my posts and my suggestions for the top 10%, you'd know that this is something I do NOT endorse!

February 25, 2005

Be constructive with your comments. Suggest ways for improvement. You can get your point across without rudeness. There is entirely too much rudeness as it is.

1.3k · February 25, 2005

Let me clarify by saying that I firmly believe in honestly assessing the cache. I'll be looking for feedback when I place my cache and if the coordinates are off or it leaks, gets plundered, is too visible, or the contents degrade to junk I certainly want to know. All of these things are frustrating for the cacher and easily remedied.

However, I think we cross a line when we express an opinion as to how good or bad the cache or cache "experience" was. The key word here is OPINION. As has been said over and over in these forums, what you may hate, I may like, and vice versa.

If you find the experience "lacking", it may be for a multitude of reasons that actually have nothing to do with the cache. Maybe you were just in a bad mood that day, or maybe you have found so many caches that it takes a real "show stopper" to make you enjoy the experience now.

Reporting problems in the logs is appropriate and helpful. Writing insults in the logs is hurtful and mean-spirited. The only thing that is likely to do is cause people to stop geocaching. If that's the goal then have at it.

After reading some of these threads I get the feeling that some people would like nothing better than to run a few people who "dont measure up" out of the game. I AM NOT attacking anyone specifically. I have read so much in the forums lately that it all runs together. Also, that's just an OPINION. If you think I am speaking about you and it upsets you then think about how someone may feel if you verbally trash their cache.

22k · February 25, 2005

Traffic moves fast back here and there's not much room to safely park (just so people are aware - it might not be that safe for very little kids). Signed log.

It's a good log, just the facts.

As the 'next' cacher I would get a lot more out of this type of posting, than "I didn't like this cache" statements.

Great avatar, by the way.

7.3k · February 25, 2005

Traffic moves fast back here and there's not much room to safely park (just so people are aware - it might not be that safe for very little kids). Signed log.

It's a good log, just the facts.

As the 'next' cacher I would get a lot more out of this type of posting, than "I didn't like this cache" statements.

Great avatar, by the way.

Yes. Informative, to help future cachers. That's very important, especially to out of town cachers.

24.7k · February 25, 2005

I'd rather have a log trash my cache than suggest how it could be improved. Generally I place the cache I intended to place. A suggestion for "improvement" assumes that I didn't know what I was doing.

I've seen suggestions that a rocky trail is really a 1 terrain. That I should of not hid my junkyard cache so close to a junkyard, that I should move the cache to better match my coordinates. I've also seen a clue replaced with the coords to the second stage and the second stage moved 6 miles to a 'better spot' in their opinion.

Some people.

2.1k · February 25, 2005

Log bad caches as P.S.N.F.

It stands for "proximo sed nolo fumigare", or "close, but no cigar".

It's in a dead language, very few people will know what it means, but a select few who read these forums will be able to feel special when they write it in a log

20.7k · February 26, 2005

Log bad caches as P.S.N.F....

I don't think we really need another DPM. :lol:

February 26, 2005

In all honesty, no matter how polite one is when they tell the owner of a cache that the placement/whatever is bad/lame/stinky, that cache owner may not take it as constructive criticism, but just criticism, and for them maybe all criticism is bad. Have I used to word "criticism" enough? Am I even spelling it correctly?

We recently logged a cache (typical magnetic micro lampost style) that turned out to be in the parking lot of an extremely busy business that is open 24/7/365. That isn't usually a problem, we've done tons of them. The problem came when the lampost turned out to be within a few feet of the front entrance!

It is one thing when one is standing in a grocery store parking lot, way back in the "Geez, couldn't find anything closer during the Christmas shopping rush"-parking area, and trying to look inconspicuous... but to have to be stealthy during a constant, un-wavering onslaught of foot traffic, that's just plain stupid if the person who hid it wants it to last more than a few days.

It took us 15 minutes to grab it, and almost 30 minutes to put it back, the level of traffic was so bad. The whole thing was foolish and not very well thought out, and I expressed that in my logs. I suppose this came from being treated like a car thief by passers-by, but that isn't the only reason. Everyone else who's logged it says something like, "Wow, this is a very busy place!" I don't think that that kind of polite information is going to change anything here.

RedwoodRed

1.3k · February 26, 2005

It took us 15 minutes to grab it, and almost 30 minutes to put it back, the level of traffic was so bad. The whole thing was foolish and not very well thought out, and I expressed that in my logs.

Logging that it took fifteen minutes to retrieve and 30 minutes to replace is perfectly acceptable. It is fairly reporting your experience for the cache. Relating that the placement makes it VERY difficult to retrieve without being caught is also completely reasonable. Reporting these things helps others decide whether it is worth pursuing. I have also seen examples of warning about potential dangers in an area when retrieving caches, such as "automobile traffic near cache may make it dangerous for small children" or "the cache is in a high crime area". Reporting these things is completely reasonable.

However, when you express that it was foolish and not well thought out you have crossed a line in my opinion. You thought it was foolish, I may enjoy the challenge of trying to retrieve this without being caught. That may have been the cache owners intention as well. Perhaps it was completely thought out.

People are talking about tact. You only need tact when you allow your subjectivity to color the tone of your cache logs.

February 26, 2005

In all honesty, no matter how polite one is when they tell the owner of a cache that the placement/whatever is bad/lame/stinky, that cache owner may not take it as constructive criticism, but just criticism, and for them maybe all criticism is bad. Have I used to word "criticism" enough? Am I even spelling it correctly?

.....

Everyone else who's logged it says something like, "Wow, this is a very busy place!" I don't think that that kind of polite information is going to change anything here.

RedwoodRed

Is this an arguement FOR rudeness?

20.7k · February 26, 2005

I completely agree with Trinity's Crew. The key is explaining the situation without passing judgement on the individual who placed the cache.

3.1k · February 26, 2005

For me a simple thank you works every time. I feel no need to trash anyone based on my opinion of their cache. Hey it got me out of the house and I added one to my numbers.

you guys are too much. a forum full of judges.

2.2k · February 26, 2005

With that said, I don't think I have ever criticized a cache in a log for being "lame." I have pointed out maintenance issues and such and once even ranted some (both on the forums and in the log) about an absent owner and begging for adoption of a cache that had special meaning to me (thanks to Tahosa for adopting it!).

I suppose part of that is that I just am not the type to complain. I tend to be pretty laid back about such things. But it also is because even when I thought a cache was "lame" I had fun.

Your post reflects my feelings so well I don't know if I should even try and add anything, bit I will.

I am somewhat disheartened by the "cache snobs" who seem to think all caches need to meet their standards for "non-lameness". For me the activity is what counts -- we got outside, we got some excersise and we didn't just stay home and do nothing. Whether it is a micro, a virtual, a DNF or otherwise is irrelevant.

I figure it is not my place to judge someone else's hide as to its degree of lameness. That is totally different from notifying a cache owner about maintenance issues or a problem with a cache. To me, I never ask myself "Why did the cache owner bring me here?" because the answer is obvious: "To find the cache."

We already have "wow factor" standards for virtuals, we don't need them for traditionals as well.

February 26, 2005

I usually can find something positive to say-

"thanks for getting me out of the house"

"the dog really enjoyed getting an extra walk"

"everyone appreciated the nearby McDonald's"

etc.

Just got a laugh out of this post. Lets go out, and take a walk in the fresh air, and then go gourge ourselves on McD.

Sorry I guess I have a sick sense of Humor

February 26, 2005

In all honesty, no matter how polite one is when they tell the owner of a cache that the placement/whatever is bad/lame/stinky, that cache owner may not take it as constructive criticism, but just criticism, and for them maybe all criticism is bad. Have I used to word "criticism" enough? Am I even spelling it correctly?

.....

Everyone else who's logged it says something like, "Wow, this is a very busy place!" I don't think that that kind of polite information is going to change anything here.

RedwoodRed

Is this an arguement FOR rudeness?

No, I would never promote rude behavior, in word or deed. My point is that a simple "Thanks for the find" give absolutely no information to the cachers that follow. A cache that requires the finder to take his/her life in hand, dodge on-coming traffic and dive over a guardrail to avoid becoming a statistic should not be logged as above "TFTF!"

In the same vein, there are people who would like to know when they will be hunting a cache in a high-muggle quotient area, to get their stealth on, and to be wary of folks who might think the cacher is casing the parking lot for a car-jacking, break in or mugging. Having your name in the local police blotter may be exciting, and fun to relate in cache logs for some, but for obvious reasons, it doesn't really place a healthy light on a past-time that is being ridiculed. This runs along the same lines as the terrain difficulty ratings: what is a 1.5 to you might be a 3.0 to someone else, but those people won't know without a decent description of the terrain and potential obstacles.

My strongest point needs to be this: there are many people on this planet that don't see any criticism as constructive, even if it is worded politely and concisely. In an effort to stay on topic, I am still a proponent of the anonymous grading system for caching. I will hunt every cache, even the ones others claim are stinky, because "they all count the same", but maybe we should push for better cache descriptions, huh?

RedwoodRed

22k · February 26, 2005

My point is that a simple "Thanks for the find" give absolutely no information to the cachers that follow.

In some cases, sure. But the first thing I have to remember is that while I didn't like the cache others might. Especailly if I'm the 50th finder after a list of positive logs.

I am probably a lot more descriptive if I am one of the first finders and the cache page doesn't clue me in on the 'difficulties' with the cache. But I still don't say if I didn't like it. I just list the facts I encountered. Muggles, traffic, police.

Of course if the cache is stuck to the backside of a newspaper vending machine I shouldn't be surprised that muggles are a concern.

1.2k · February 26, 2005

Is there a word that has double meaning (not lame) that can be used? This way you could post it but slide off the rude hook because of the double meaning.The cacher may get the message but you could wiggle out of it.

22k · February 26, 2005

Is there a word that has double meaning (not lame) that can be used? This way you could post it but slide off the rude hook because of the double meaning.The cacher may get the message but you could wiggle out of it.

Well, only .0001% of the geocaching population would get it. i.e. forum regulars.

1.3k · February 26, 2005

Is there a word that has double meaning (not lame) that can be used? This way you could post it but slide off the rude hook because of the double meaning.The cacher may get the message but you could wiggle out of it.

Why would you want to? Why would anyone want to call anyones cache lame or "bad" ?(hey that has a double meaning doesn't it? )

How about this? Just say "I didn't enjoy this cache because:"

The area was dirty.

Lamp post micros are not my favorite.

The pedestrian traffic was too heavy.

The surrounding area made me uncomfortable.

Etc, etc...

This would allow you to voice your opinion without attacking owner.

It seems to me that people are trying to find sneaky ways to say "Your cache is lame" when no one has the right to make that judgement.

20.7k · February 26, 2005

Well said and a good place to end this topic. Hopefully the forums will get away from the 'L' word for a while.

Logging The Stinky Ones.

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