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Bad Coordinates For Cache


SixDogTeam
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Came across an interesting cache page this morning: Had 18 logs--a total of ten finders stated the coordinates were off, seven of those said they were 90-120' off. Cache was hidden by a cacher whose total stats consist of 4 finds and 1 hide, all over a 3 day period in July. Not one of the logs posted alternate coordinates, and the owner has not done anything to correct the coordinates... :wacko::wacko:

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In principle, I agree with the posters above. If you can find the box, it's no big deal. One of my early hides was somewhere in the neighborhood of 70' off. I gave an explicit hint, and most people found it. One well respected cacher posted some alternate coords on his log. I posted those coords, then I got logs STILL saying it was 70' off :wacko: .

 

We did one last weekend that my GPS told me I still had 150' to go when I was standing right next to the container. Tree cover and the steep hillside made my EPE's in the neighborhood of 60' :( . Needless to say, I didn't bother posting alternate coords. The cache owner in that case, gave explicit instructions in the cache description, and a dead giveaway hint. I probably could've found it without the GPS :wacko:

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Ok first off let me say the cache owner should definately be trying to fix it.

 

However I would also expect the following:

1) If it's really that bad then the people who have found it or do find it should be adding their own waypoints to their logs.

2) People should be emailing the owner. (Either to offer assistance or politely suggest that he/she may need to take a few more readings and come up with an average)

3) If they aren't getting replies from the owner then they should contact the local approver or contact@gc.com (er whatever it is). And either have it archived and removed or adopt it.

 

Thorin

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... If they aren't getting replies from the owner then they should contact the local approver or contact@gc.com (er whatever it is). And either have it archived and removed or adopt it.

Why? Precisely which guideline delineates a required accuracy for coordinates?

I don't know how many "difficulty" stars the cache has, but perhaps the "soft" coordinates were an intended part of the challenge. Not every cache is intended to be found without a search.

Edited by BassoonPilot
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... If they aren't getting replies from the owner then they should contact the local approver or contact@gc.com (er whatever it is). And either have it archived and removed or adopt it.

Why? Precisely which guideline delineates a required accuracy for coordinates?

I don't know how many "difficulty" stars the cache has, but perhaps the "soft" coordinates were an intended part of the challenge. Not every cache is intended to be found without a search.

If the owner is actually taking care of their cache what reason would they have to not point that out in the description, post a note in the logs, or reply stating that?

 

Assuming you own some caches if I emailed you regarding an issue with your cache and you didn't reply why would I assume you're still taking care of it? Why would I assume you even still cache at all?

 

Thorin

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Assuming you own some caches if I emailed you regarding an issue with your cache and you didn't reply why would I assume you're still taking care of it? Why would I assume you even still cache at all?

Just because one of us considers something to be an "issue" doesn't mean the cache owner does/will. We can check their profile to see if they have logged in recently, logged any finds recently, placed any other caches recently. Is there a guideline I missed that requires a cache owner to respond to (what s/he may consider to be nuisance) e-mails?

 

I don't know about the specific cache cited in the OP, but I do not think it unreasonable for a cache owner "to do nothing" about coordinates if people are succeeding at finding the cache. The owner might own an antiquated GPS unit; poor coordinates do not indicate a cache isn't meticulously maintained.

 

If the owner is actually taking care of their cache what reason would they have to not point that out in the description, post a note in the logs, or reply stating that?

 

What precisely is a cache owner required to disclose in the cache description? In "note" logs? Nothing.

Edited by BassoonPilot
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...Cache was hidden by a cacher whose total stats consist of 4 finds and 1 hide, all over a 3 day period in July. Not one of the logs posted alternate coordinates, and the owner has not done anything to correct the coordinates...

We have one of these in rural Mendocino County. Owner stats: 1 hide, 0 finds. Coordinates are off by about 70' which takes people to a significantly different area and there is about a 50%, or greater, NF rate for first attempt. People have been posting revised coordinates for almost two years and the owner has never responded.

 

But... the cache is at a very interesting location and people keep helping each other out. The cache has taken on a personality of its own because each new finder has to go through the drill of arriving, not finding, reading the recent logs, still not finding, going home and scanning all the logs, then visiting again on their next trip up the Redwood Highway. The feature is a hole blasted through a rock so a Rattlesake Creek could be rerouted for highway construction. It is VERY cool and worth even a purple face just to see it.

 

The owner's non responsiveness, at worst, only ups the difficulty rating a notch but contributes to the adventure that can be had while visiting this cache.

A persistant cacher will eventually prevail.

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Assuming you own some caches if I emailed you regarding an issue with your cache and you didn't reply why would I assume you're still taking care of it? Why would I assume you even still cache at all?

Just because one of us considers something to be an "issue" doesn't mean the cache owner does/will. We can check their profile to see if they have logged in recently, logged any finds recently, placed any other caches recently. Is there a guideline I missed that requires a cache owner to respond to (what s/he may consider to be nuisance) e-mails?

 

I don't know about the specific cache cited in the OP, but I do not think it unreasonable for a cache owner "to do nothing" about coordinates if people are succeeding at finding the cache. The owner might own an antiquated GPS unit; poor coordinates do not indicate a cache isn't meticulously maintained.

 

If the owner is actually taking care of their cache what reason would they have to not point that out in the description, post a note in the logs, or reply stating that?
What precisely is a cache owner required to disclose in the cache description? In "note" logs? Nothing.

Just like the owner is not obligated to correct any "issues" (real or perceived) with their cache, cachers are not obligated to do anything more then attempt emailing them or mentioning their "issue" in their log entry. It's upto the volunteers and gc.com to decide if the owner is neglecting the cache and further decide if it should be archived or adpoted by someone else. (Per my original point #3). If a cache owner can't respond to an email or somehow address an issue raised by a large number of people (editting their cache description or posting a log note) then why should any of us not bring this to the attention of the volunteers or gc.com?

 

If a cache owner shouldn't put any effort into maintaining a cache then why should any of us put any effort in to helping him retain ownership of it?

(Note I don't think this is the case nor do I think this is the way it should be, I'm simply illustrating a point to BP)

 

Further I haven't said in any of my posts that poor coordinates on their own suggest that "a cache isn't meticulously maintained". I have said that poor co-ordinates along with lack of communication or action suggest that the cache may not be "meticulously maintained".

 

Step 5 - Maintain the cache

 

Once you place the cache, it is your responsibility to maintain the cache and the area around it. You'll need to return as often as you can to ensure that your cache is not impacting the area, and ensure that the cache is in good repair. Once people have visited the cache, inquire about the cache and their opinion of the location. Does the area look disturbed? Are visitors disrupting the landscape in any way? If you have concerns about the location, feel free to move or remove it from the area.

The input the owner is getting hasn't be solicited but obviously fits the maintenance guideline.

 

Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types

 

You as the owner of the cache must visit the site and obtain the coordinates with a GPS. If time allows take several reading at different times over a few days and average the results. This will help you achieve greater accuracy on your coordinates.

.

.

.

Cache Maintenance

 

The cache owner will assume all responsibility of their cache listings.

 

For all cache types please be sensible when choosing your location for cache placement. Please be aware of what may be a perceived to a non geocacher as dangerous or questionable behavior.  For example, suspicious looking characters wandering about near an elementary school.  The land may be public property, but keep in mind what is on the other side of that property line.  Also, clearly label your physical containers on the outside with appropriate information to reduce the risk of your cache being perceived as a danger to those that are unaware of our sport.

 

At times a cache may meet the listing requirements for the site but the approvers, as experienced cachers, may see additional concerns that you as a cache placer may not have noticed.  As a courtesy, the approver may bring additional concerns about cache placement to your attention and offer suggestions before posting.  But as the cache owner you are responsible for placement and care of your cache.

 

Before submitting your report you must visit the location to obtain accurate coordinates with a GPS.

 

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

 

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for checking on your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.).  You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem.  This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing. 

That should cover all the applicable guidelines you keep asking about.

 

Thorin

Edited by thorin
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Just like the owner is not obligated to correct any "issues" (real or perceived) with their cache, cachers are not obligated to do anything more then attempt emailing them or mentioning their "issue" in their log entry.  It's upto the volunteers and gc.com to decide if the owner is neglecting the cache and further decide if it should be archived or adpoted by someone else.

 

I don't agree with you that "soft" coordinates are necessarily an indication of "cache neglect." You'll have to ask the reviewers if they believe it is. While you're at it, you might want to ask them for the precise definition of "accurate coordinates," as quoted from the guidelines.

 

If a cache owner can't respond to an email or somehow address an issue raised by a large number of people (editting their cache description or posting a log note) then why should any of us not bring this to the attention of the volunteers or gc.com?
Go ahead. The reviewers have nothing better to do than listen to people whine about caches that others have found with little or no problem.

 

If a cache owner shouldn't put any effort into maintaining a cache then why should any of us put any effort in to helping him retain ownership of it?
If your e-mails were to have a tone similar to your post, I don't believe the cache owner would be seeking, or wanting, your help. Incidentally, your posts have had nothing to do with "helping an owner to retain ownership." Rather, your posts have been about "how to extort a cache owner with threats of having his/her cache archived or taken away."
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I found a cache once that the coordinates were 1/2 mile off. The owner mentioned that your GPS wouldn't read well because of buildings downtown, but I'm pretty sure he could have gotten closer than 1/2 mile.

 

The reason anyone found the cache is because he told you the park name and the intersection it could be found at. Lucky for me my GPS could search by intersections because even though I grew up here and went to school nearby, the street name was not one that I knew. I guess in an instance like this I wonder if it's really geo-caching. I couldn't use my GPS at all, it was useless from the very start.

 

I have found regular caches in the woods that are 100 feet or more away from the coordinates. Lots of places to look in the woods. The problem I have with this, people will tear the area up looking in the wrong place. Not good for the trees and shrubs (or the people getting cut up by palmettos) and not good for the image of caching when the park employees see the destruction!

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Just like the owner is not obligated to correct any "issues" (real or perceived) with their cache, cachers are not obligated to do anything more then attempt emailing them or mentioning their "issue" in their log entry.  It's upto the volunteers and gc.com to decide if the owner is neglecting the cache and further decide if it should be archived or adpoted by someone else.

 

I don't agree with you that "soft" coordinates are necessarily an indication of "cache neglect." You'll have to ask the reviewers if they believe it is. While you're at it, you might want to ask them for the precise definition of "accurate coordinates," as quoted from the guidelines.

As I've said multiple times not is isn't simply "soft coordinates" and yes it would be up to the reviewers as I've also pointed out multiple times.

 

If a cache owner can't respond to an email or somehow address an issue raised by a large number of people (editting their cache description or posting a log note) then why should any of us not bring this to the attention of the volunteers or gc.com?
Go ahead. The reviewers have nothing better to do than listen to people whine about caches that others have found with little or no problem.
If it'd been found with little or no problem we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

If a cache owner shouldn't put any effort into maintaining a cache then why should any of us put any effort in to helping him retain ownership of it?
If your e-mails were to have a tone similar to your post, I don't believe the cache owner would be seeking, or wanting, your help. Incidentally, your posts have had nothing to do with "helping an owner to retain ownership." Rather, your posts have been about "how to extort a cache owner with threats of having his/her cache archived or taken away."
My comment about "helping an owner to retain ownership." was in reply to my earlier point (and your counter point) regarding adoption/archival. And where did I suggest that anyone make any "threats"? (Please give me a quote here because I'm really confused where you came up with that).

 

There hasn't been any problematic "tone" in anything I've said. It's all be straight forward and to the point. Have I instulted you somehow simply in trying to help you understand what you obviously didn't understand when I first posted it? If so I'm gravely sorry.

 

I have found regular caches in the woods that are 100 feet or more away from the coordinates. Lots of places to look in the woods. The problem I have with this, people will tear the area up looking in the wrong place. Not good for the trees and shrubs (or the people getting cut up by palmettos) and not good for the image of caching when the park employees see the destruction!
That's also covered under the guidelines B)

 

Step 5 - Maintain the cache

 

..... Does the area look disturbed? Are visitors disrupting the landscape in any way? If you have concerns about the location, feel free to move or remove it from the area.

 

Thorin

Edited by thorin
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It's not worth spending any more time on.
I'm sorry you feel that way. If I'm giving advice that is bad or doesn't make sense then I'd like to know. I thought we were having a fairly good discussion I just don't see where you're getting threats and demands from. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, though it doesn't bring any resolution to the topic B)

 

or threaten the cache owner via e-mail that you are going to whine to the reviewer that their cache should be archived unless the cache owner does whatever it is you are demanding.
As I said please quote where I said anyone should threaten the cache owner? And where I suggest anyond demand anything of the cache owner.

 

1) If it's really that bad then the people who have found it or do find it should be adding their own waypoints to their logs.

2) People should be emailing the owner. (Either to offer assistance or politely suggest that he/she may need to take a few more readings and come up with an average)

3) If they aren't getting replies from the owner then they should contact the local approver or contact@gc.com (er whatever it is). And either have it archived and removed or adopt it.

 

I just don't see where you're getting threats and demands out of that. You feel demands or see threats when people offer assistance or poitely suggest that something might be wrong?

 

Thorin

Edited by thorin
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Man, there's a lot of attitude here. I encounter caches that are off coordinate with some frequency. If they give me a hint, I find them anyhow. And another thing I've learned- when you get close, start looking for obvoius hiding places and don't get hung up with exact coordinates. If I think someone is seriously off, I'll email them, although, I've never seen one corrected. If I have no hints and no obvious hiding places, I log a DNF and move on. If the owner does this repeatedly, I'll ignore their caches.

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I think that people are missing one of the big points:

Cache was hidden by a cacher whose total stats consist of 4 finds and 1 hide, all over a 3 day period in July.

 

It is obvious to me that this cacher has dropped off the face of the geocaching earth and therefore this cache page is never going to be updated nor maintained. In such cases I have no qualms about either pressing the "should be archived" button or -- preferably -- taking over official control of the cache.

 

In my mind there is no reason why we, as a community, should allow sloppy and unmaintained caches to exist. And, yes, a cache page needs maintainance just as much as the physical cache needs it.

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I'm not upset if the coordinates are within a couple hundred feet, and I probably wouldn't correct coordinates on a "regular" sized cache if they were within that distance. If they were say, 1/4 mile off, I think the cache owner should make the appropriate correction.

 

I've found a few caches where I think the owner deliberately provided off coordinates to up the challenge. Nothing wrong with that. I don't want to get too terribly accurate with the coordinates I take on my caches either.

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There was a cache here in Utah that was over 20 miles off. It was a virtual placed at a well known location, so people would go to the spot answer the question and log the find. I emailed the owner twice. He edited the cache page to say that the coordinates were off, but didn't change them. I pointed out the problem to the local admin and he went and changed the coordiantes.

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Thorin raises some good points and im not sure why BP is trying to bust him in the chops. Courtesy is the key here. If i email a cache owner for some reason, then the least they can do is reply back. They dont have to explain, agree or disagree with anything i say or ask, but they can respond. If others email that same cache owner and he still doesnt reply, then its very likely that the owner has left the game and could care less! That cache needs to be maintained so something (adoption, archiving) probably needs to be done...

 

Sounds like people are finding this cache pretty regularly but that doesnt mean that the coordinates dont need to be corrected. If they are that far off, then people should probably post the cache coordinates they came up with. Since this cache owner hasnt responded, see above for proper remedies!

 

By the way, i disagree with some of you when you say it is part of the game and adds to the challenge when someone purposely places a cache with coordinates off. The coordinates need to be close unless there is a redirect or there are other clues to be followed! B)

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It is obvious to me that this cacher has dropped off the face of the geocaching earth and therefore this cache page is never going to be updated nor maintained.  In such cases I have no qualms about either pressing the "should be archived" button or -- preferably -- taking over official control of the cache.

It's obvious to you? From the information contained in the OP?

Came across an interesting cache page this morning: Had 18 logs--a total of ten finders stated the coordinates were off, seven of those said they were 90-120' off. Cache was hidden by a cacher whose total stats consist of 4 finds and 1 hide, all over a 3 day period in July. ...

 

From that information, it is not obvious to me when the cache owner last logged into the website ... or visited the website without logging in ... or revisited their cache, perhaps even verifying the coordinates (or discovering that someone intentionally or accidentally rehid the cache in the wrong location). It is certainly not obvious to me whether or not the cache owner received or responded to any e-mails (or logs) received from the people who logged the cache. I'm glad it's all "obvious" to you. Go ahead and press that SBA button. Oh, by the way; which cache was it?

 

In my mind there is no reason why we, as a community, should allow sloppy and unmaintained caches to exist.

 

I agree with you on that. Now, precisely how is "sloppy" defined? If you are referring to coordinates, precisely how accurate would you require them to be? What is the precise definition of "unmaintained?" One day after cache placement without a visit from the owner? One month? Six months? One year? What is the required "level of maintenance?"

Edited by BassoonPilot
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Is there a guideline I missed that requires a cache owner to respond to (what s/he may consider to be nuisance) e-mails?

Apparantly. It's called courtesy.

No, that can't be it ... did you miss the recent thread about owners not responding to verification e-mails? It seems most don't ... and those are "solicited" e-mails.

 

You must be one of those folk that respond to every unsolicited piece of junk mail and e-mail received. :blink:

Edited by BassoonPilot
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... And another thing I've learned- when you get close, start looking for obvoius hiding places and don't get hung up with exact coordinates. If I think someone is seriously off, I'll email them, although, I've never seen one corrected. If I have no hints and no obvious hiding places, I log a DNF and move on. If the owner does this repeatedly, I'll ignore their caches.

Precisely. And don't forget to consider the difficulty rating. Don't get mad at the cache owner when you can't find a two difficulty star cache (or higher) after searching for all of fifteen seconds.

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Is there a guideline I missed that requires a cache owner to respond to (what s/he may consider to be nuisance) e-mails?

Apparantly. It's called courtesy.

No, that can't be it ... did you miss the recent thread about owners not responding to verification e-mails? It seems most don't ... and those are "solicited" e-mails.

 

You must be one of those folk that respond to every unsolicited piece of junk mail and e-mail received. :blink:

I don't know about that, but he does seem to reply to a lot of your posts. :blink:

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What is the required "level of maintenance?

 

Well, there use to be a more firm guidelines -- as I recall, once a month -- however reading the latest guidelines TPTB seem to have dropped this time requirement. Which is good since I certainly do not check on my caches every month. However I do respond to email and complaints.

 

The cache owner in question does not respond to email, has not been logging anything since July, has only 3 finds to their name. To me, all of the signs of someone who got excited about "the game" and then dropped out. I have seen it before in my local community. BassoonPilot is willing to give the cache and the person a lot more slack. Ok with me, he may be right; I may be too quick on the draw.

 

That SBA button is wonderful. Press it and let TPTB take care of the problem. They can handle the back-and-forth email to an no longer responding account. They can handle getting someone to take over the cache. Simply putting a note in the on-line log is not very effective. It is good if the cache owner is still active but if he is not ... well, that cache will go unmaintained for a long time and drag the overall geocaching experience down.

 

But that is only my opinion. Others see it differently. I tend to be more forthright than some. If I find a cache that many would log just as "TFTC" I will instead say "this cache sucks ... and these are ways to make it better." Yes, it can hurt people's feelings. So does getting a "D" on a term paper. Doesn't and shouldn't stop teachers from giving out Ds.

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The cache owner in question does not respond to email, has not been logging anything since July, has only 3 finds to their name.  To me, all of the signs of someone who got excited about "the game" and then dropped out. I have seen it before in my local community.  BassoonPilot is willing to give the cache and the person a lot more slack.

Perhaps I am, because two of the very best caches (in every way) I've ever found were hidden by a username with 0 finds and 2 hides. In addition, another couple of dozen of my favorite finds were hidden by a person with a total of 18 finds ... I didn't check, but I would suspect that none of that cache hider's finds have been within the past three years.

 

In addition, at least two of the very worst (in every way) caches I've found were hidden by people with thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of finds. (And hundreds and hundreds and ... [you get the idea] of hides.)

 

So I ask: Is the information in the first sentence of your quote information you personally know to be true, or is it information you assume to be true because you read it in the OP? Do you know it for a fact that the cache owner is inactive? Do you know for a fact that the cache owner did not respond to e-mails sent to anyone other than the OP?

 

Perhaps you do, but I don't, and I also don't see anything in this thread that would support such statements. So the benefit of my doubt goes to the cache owner.

Edited by BassoonPilot
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It's not worth spending any more time on.  Go ahead and whine to the reviewer, or threaten the cache owner via e-mail that you are going to whine to the reviewer that their cache should be archived unless the cache owner does whatever it is you are demanding.  Go ahead.  Please.

 

What for? That never worked for you.

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Is there a guideline I missed that requires a cache owner to respond to (what s/he may consider to be nuisance) e-mails?

Apparantly. It's called courtesy.

No, that can't be it ... did you miss the recent thread about owners not responding to verification e-mails? It seems most don't ... and those are "solicited" e-mails.

Wow you truely conclude that because a few people aren't courteous that automatically means that no one is and no one should be? And people keep wondering why the world is going to hell in a hand basket and their kids have no values <sigh>

 

And yes there actually is a guidline that suggests you have to reply to email and inquiries about your cache it was quoted earlier in this thread.

 

Thorin

Edited by thorin
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Wow you truely conclude that because a few people aren't courteous that automatically means that no one is and no one should be? And people keep wondering why the world is going to hell in a hand basket and their kids have no values <sigh>

 

And yes there actually is a guidline that suggests you have to reply to email and inquiries about your cache it was quoted earlier in this thread.

No, that is not what I conclude. But since you're ranting, I do conclude that it is both ridiculous and absurd for people to complain about a dearth of values or how "the world is going to hell in a hand basket" when their posts would bring any primary school teacher to tears. Talk about a lack of courtesy ...

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Wow you truely conclude that because a few people aren't courteous that automatically means that no one is and no one should be? And people keep wondering why the world is going to hell in a hand basket and their kids have no values <sigh>

 

And yes there actually is a guidline that suggests you have to reply to email and inquiries about your cache it was quoted earlier in this thread.

No, that is not what I conclude.

Ok fill us in then since we obviously misinterpreted this exchange. If your conclusion wasn't that courtesy isn't needed what was it?

Is there a guideline I missed that requires a cache owner to respond to (what s/he may consider to be nuisance) e-mails?

Apparantly. It's called courtesy.

No, that can't be it ... did you miss the recent thread about owners not responding to verification e-mails? It seems most don't ... and those are "solicited" e-mails.

"No, that can't be it ... " seems to mean it can't be courtesy. "did you miss the recent thread about owners not responding to verification emails? It seems most don't ... and those are "solicited" e-mails" unless your arguement is that because some don't, none should then why even mention it? It's completely irrelevant to the conversation unless you're trying to use it as an example of how things are and/or should be. Or maybe we're not reading it how you meant it?

 

But since you're ranting, I do conclude that it is both ridiculous and absurd for people to complain about a dearth of values or how "the world is going to hell in a hand basket" when their posts would bring any primary school teacher to tears.  Talk about a lack of courtesy ...
How does the seeming lack of values in kids these days have anything to do with my post bringing "any primary school teacher to tears." I know I can't come up with runon sentences like that one but I'm really not seeing the relationship you're trying to make there. Also note the subtle difference in what you quoted "people keep wondering" not "I keep wondering". I personally have no doubts at all what the problems are.

 

Thorin

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Came across an interesting cache page this morning: Had 18 logs--a total of ten finders stated the coordinates were off, seven of those said they were 90-120' off. Cache was hidden by a cacher whose total stats consist of 4 finds and 1 hide, all over a 3 day period in July. Not one of the logs posted alternate coordinates, and the owner has not done anything to correct the coordinates... :laughing::P

There is nothing in the OP to suggest that the cache owner responds or doesn't respond to emails, or how often they log onto the site.

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There is nothing in the OP to suggest ... how often they log onto the site.

Is there a reason why you would withhold that specific information? Knowing whether or not the cache owner remains active is important information.

 

Your opening post appears to suggest that the cache owner found a few caches, placed a cache, and then disappeared. If that were the case, I would think it would be an important part of your presentation. And if it were not the case, I would refer you back to my response directly below the OP.

Edited by BassoonPilot
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Hmmmm....

Yes the local conservation area in my area are also making placement only possible by permit. once a month maintence checks and anual renewal.  they want to keep the number of caches limited in each area

Sounds reasonable and fair to me.

I'm sure conservation area's aren't going to allow co-ordinates that are 90-120' "soft". But I'm glad to hear that you think owners should be checking on their caches every month even though you seemed to suggest earlier they should never be expected to reply to emails. (I know checking on your cache and replying to emails are different things. But you're tone earlier was almost as if you thought owners should be able to basically place and forget their cache, and no that's not a quote it's just how your posts were coming across).

 

Thorin

Edited by thorin
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