Permission To Place Cache - Scotland

[+tyrog]

<Flyfishermanbob> Like the Forester, I'm slightly confused ( may be "wee goldie" induced in my case )

 

To the best of my understanding, there is limited restriction on public access in Scotland...see Scotways

though there are exceptions ..damage to arable areas ....MOD property ....foot and mouth etc. and the landowner has the right to insist that you leave (if justified)

 

( but it requires a court order to prevent your return )

 

So I'm at a loss to understand why permission needs to be sought from whatever forestry group manages the land .....

 

From the information I have looked at , the exceptions are based on damage to property , and the onus is on the owner to prove this ....

 

I would struggle to believe that leaving a plastic box could be construed as criminal damage .....but I'll stand corrected if any qualified expert in Scottish Land Law refutes it ...

 

As someone who is considering locations for his first caches I would be interested in opinions and advice on this subject. I've searched through all the previous posts relating to permission and found that they all discuss the situation in England and Wales.

 

My own take on the situation is permission should be sought and leaving a cache on someones property could be considered littering. However, Flyfishermanbob does make some valid points in the "Scottish Forestry Commission, permission obtained in Aberdeenshire" post and in a couple of other previous posts that no one has ever responded to. This of course leaves me slightly confused as to the true legal situation in Scotland.

 

As I have seen from old posts about permissions this can become a heated debate and it is not my intention to stir up old arguements. I am only interested in the Scottish situation and how it relates to any caches I may wish to place.

[Gixxer...]

Dont worry about it.. Just do it... cache it man

[+The Forester]

Here in Scotland we are blessed with lots of wonderful caches and I will forever be grateful to the 'usual suspects' who create so many of them. They're a great bunch.

 

On the matter of landowner permission, I wonder just how many cache placers here actually obtained permission from the landowner before placing the cache?

 

Many? Any?

 

Cheers, The Forester

[+spioradsaor]

Its our land anyway....the owners are only looking after it for the people.

 

However in my own case I have always asked for permission.

 

And in the Campsie Bell case then the owner was contacted through a very old ouija board

 

Na seriously if its wild and windy moor no problem ...close to peoples propety or on farmland ALWAYS even if only as a courtesy.

 

It can also be a problem working out who actually owns the muddy bit.

 

Just be sensible and then Cache it.

[+tyrog]

Thanks to the 3 cachers who responded to my initial query, The Forester & spioradsaor have given me something to consider. I'm a bit surprised by the lack of response from other Scottish cachers on this subject. I guess I'll just have to draw my own conclusions as to what that silence means.

[+Haggis Hunter]

Thanks to the 3 cachers who responded to my initial query, The Forester & spioradsaor have given me something to consider. I'm a bit surprised by the lack of response from other Scottish cachers on this subject. I guess I'll just have to draw my own conclusions as to what that silence means.

Well I didn't answer, because Spior hit the nail on the head. But if you're unsure then look for Who Owns Scotland, then you will know who to ask

[+Team Ullium]

Hi tyrog,

 

I didn't answer because I haven't placed a cache yet....and that is partly because of difficulty I'm experiencing in finding out exactly from whom I need get permission !!

 

In and around Glasgow there are lots of wee villages and the boundaries of concern are very blurred ... especially where there are wee bits of land here and there... that if one is asking about who is responsible for it to get something done (like tree felling or other maintenance) then no one owns it....but if you are asking to use it for something.... then they all claim ownership and subsequently are reluctant to decide one way or the other (probably because they are really not certain whether or not they really do own this particular bit of land)

 

I don't have to go any further to quote a case in point than about ten steps outside of my front door....a smallish tract of grass across the road from my home is claimed by the Glasgow corporation to belong to the railway which runs on the other side of it....and the railway authorities claim it is Glasgow corporation's responsibility to keep it tidy!!

Of course if I wanted to build something on it....ah that would be another case no doubt

 

Ullium.

[+tyrog]

HH you're a star!!! I've put that website into my favourites for future reference and will make use of the information I find on it.

 

Ullium, I know how you feel. In my case, I know the name of the people who own the estate on which I want to place one of my caches. Unfortunately I can't find their business address to mail them out a Geocaching pack I've compiled. With any luck the website HH gave will one day cover that area.

 

Thanks guys you've both been of great help.

[+Haggis Hunter]

HH you're a star!!! I've put that website into my favourites for future reference and will make use of the information I find on it.

 

Ullium, I know how you feel. In my case, I know the name of the people who own the estate on which I want to place one of my caches. Unfortunately I can't find their business address to mail them out a Geocaching pack I've compiled. With any luck the website HH gave will one day cover that area.

 

Thanks guys you've both been of great help.

You're welcome, glad I could help. Email on it's way to request a pack that you have put together. You should never have mentioned it in the forums

[+Flyfishermanbob]

Hi ..sorry I didn’t respond , I thought I had made the point in other threads…..bottom line ..is that Scottish land law isn’t the same as in England or Wales or U.S.A ( and it varies within U.S.A …You can legally be shot for trespass in Texas ..(check the Texas threads) )

 

So to set a precedent for permission requirement would be wrong (and unnecessary) in Scotland ..Hence the fear / concern that we drift into this.

 

PS ..I did a cache today in “Forestry Commission” ground Ben A’an , and the notice board listed an enormous list of restrictions under a 1982 act ( I think) …. Covering everything from playing ball games to discarding “cigars;cigarettes;or other lit material” and damaging seedlings …..

 

Nowhere did it make any reference to any activity which could be akin to placing a cache.

 

Lets not make problems where there aren’t any …. Unless you want to place a cache in someone’s garden, Just do it ….. Use the maxim ..

“ If its ok to walk there… its ok to place a cache.”

regards FFB

[+The Forester]

I'm a little confused as to the conclusion of the forum and the opinion(s) of the approvers, Lactothingy and Eckywotsit.

 

Do we in Scotland need to seek/obtain landowner permission? Or not?

 

Was the cacheplacer who got permission from what Firth of Forth described as "forestry land"(sic) wasting his/her time?

 

Accessing an already placed cache is a quite different matter. The law of trespass in Scotland is very clear that no trespass occurs unless damage is caused. Cachehounds rarely cause damage, and almost nerver intentionally. That's not the issue.

 

My question is about the necessity to obtain landowners permission to place a cache in Scotland.

 

Need we do it?

 

On the wider issue of land ownership in Scotland, I loved a quip in an otherwise rather silly film called Crocodile Dundee. The lead character said something to the effect of: Aboriginees think that talking about owning land is as daft as two fleas arguing about who owns the dog they live on.

 

Cheers, The Forester

[+Firth of Forth]

Was the cacheplacer who got permission from what Firth of Forth described as "forestry land"(sic) wasting his/her time?

 

Here is what was referred to, as it is in another thread:

 

"Scottish Forestry Commission, permission obtained in Aberdeenshire

I think that Scottish cachers will be interested to know that Geoki asked for and received permission to place a cache on forestry land in Aberdeenshire (Bennachie Booty).

 

With permission, I will repeat what Geoki told me:

"I spoke to someone at our local forestry office who then asked someone

further up. We had to follow strict instructions about placing the cache,

including providing them with the grid co-ords of the proposed placement

before we actually put this in situ. They also didn't want the cache off of

the set walks as future forestry works could put the public at risk, also as

Bennachie is an archaeological monument in areas we weren't allowed to place

the cache any where near these areas. We worked closely with the map sent by

the forestry and the local office. We are hoping that as we have gone about

this the correct way that in the near future we will be able to set up some

more within this area."

 

Maybe this will set a good precedent for the placement of other caches on forestry commission land in other parts of Scotland.

[+Firth of Forth]

I accept what FFB says, and agree that 'dangerous' precedents may be set about needing to seek permission in Scotland.

 

However, I am loth to place a cache on a private estate, when I know who owns the land, without seeking permission. I have been 'in discussion' with the laird of one such estate for some months now. He has brought up issues such as insurance (e.g if someone slips and breaks a leg while looking for the cache). It shouldn't really be a problem, as he already allows moutain bikers to use some tracks in the estate, which is obviously a far more dangerous pursuit.

[+Team Ullium]

I have been 'in discussion' with the laird of one such estate for some months now. He has brought up issues such as insurance (e.g if someone slips and breaks a leg while looking for the cache). It shouldn't really be a problem, as he already allows moutain bikers to use some tracks in the estate, which is obviously a far more dangerous pursuit.

 

Ah!...FOF..... but does he realise I might be going after your cache ????

 

Ullium.

[+snaik]

On 1 July 2004 the Scottish Outdoor Access Code was approved by resolution of the Scottish Parliament, having received Ministerial approval, with modifications, in May. The Access Code will provide guidance on responsible behaviour for recreational users, and on responsible land management in relation to the new rights.

 

Access Code

 

FOF you will see in the document it covers the Landowner for Insurance

 

Edited September 2, 2004 by Snaik

[+Firth of Forth]

Thanks very much for pointing that out Snaik. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but it seems that geocaching is a perfectly acceptable "pasttime".

 

I had already sent a further email to the landowner, pretty much telling him that I was about to set up the cache and how I proposed to do it. I will pursue it with vigour now!

Edited September 2, 2004 by Firth of Forth

[+Haggis Hunter]

Accessing an already placed cache is a quite different matter. The law of trespass in Scotland is very clear that no trespass occurs unless damage is caused. Cachehounds rarely cause damage, and almost nerver intentionally. That's not the issue.

Not Quite!!

 

Section 57 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 states that 'any person who, without lawful authority to be there, is found on or in a building or other premises, whether enclosed or not, or in its boundary or in a vehicle or vessel so that, in all circumstances, it may reasonably be inferred* that he/she intended to commit theft, they shall be guilty of an offence'.

 

An interesting point is that in relation to the above offence an arrest can be made and that person be detained until the arrival of the police.**

 

Apart from railway property it is permissible to walk*** on any land in Scotland providing you are not causing damage.

 

Exept for the instances above, you do not have the power of arrest for trespass and if a person refuses to leave, the assistance of the police must be summoned.****

 

* That is putting it down to someones perception.

** A civil arrest can be made.

*** Does not say you can place a box on the land. Hence this discussion.

**** This means with the assistance of the police you can still be removed from the land.

 

Aggravated Trespass

 

This is a criminal offence, created by legislation in 1994.

 

It relates to trespassers who are doing so with the intent to intimidate, disrupt or obstruct people carrying out lawful activities.

 

If the land owner/manager does not know your reasons for hunting about in the undergrowth. He/She may have the perception that you are there to disrupt his/her everyday activities. They would have to call the police, and if the police agree with their perception you could get arrested.

 

I hope this has cleared up the matter of trespass within Scotland.

[+Geoki]

It appears that our seeking permission from our local forestry has caused hassel. We are new to geocaching and as such thought it right that we had common courtesy in seeking this permission. The other reason that we did so was because this is effectively a working environment we didn't want to be putting either the workers or the geocachers at any risk. This hill is also partly and archaeological site and we certainly took that into respect in the placing of this cache. If we do place another cache any where i would again seek permission as we thought that this was common practice any way.

[+TartanT]

on or in a building or other premises, whether enclosed or not

 

As geocahers we should have no reason to be on or in any building. I know of only one cache that is inside a building and I believe permission was sot for that.

 

you do not have the power of arrest for trespass and if a person refuses to leave, the assistance of the police must be summoned

 

If a farmer/landowner asked you to leave their land would you say no??

 

Ok, your rumaging about in the undergrowth and Mr Landowner comes along, he asks " oy you, what you up to?" What do you tell him?? oh, I dropped my wallet.

 

Of course not you tell him the truth, "I'm goecaching" now comes the blank look from Mr Landowner. So you spend half an hour explaining what geocaching is all about and then hopfully said landowner is a nice man and lets you get on with it (which most will) or he asks you to leave (which you promtly do without question).

 

Most landowners are reasonable people and tolerate us geocacher/hillwalker types on their land. So when one approches be reasonable back. Always works for me.

[+tyrog]

It appears that our seeking permission from our local forestry has caused hassel. We are new to geocaching and as such thought it right that we had common courtesy in seeking this permission. The other reason that we did so was because this is effectively a working environment we didn't want to be putting either the workers or the geocachers at any risk. This hill is also partly and archaeological site and we certainly took that into respect in the placing of this cache. If we do place another cache any where i would again seek permission as we thought that this was common practice any way.

No Geoki, I think, all credit to you for obtaining permission to place your cache. The hassle is not due to your actions but, the legal grey areas and contradictions that appear in Scots law. The initial purpose of this topic was to discover, for my own benefit, the ins and outs of Scottish legislation and not to criticise anyone who does or does not seek permission from the landowner.

 

The conclusion I have come to, thanks to everyone who has posted a viewpoint, is that legally the placing of a cache should require permission from the landowner. This conclusion is not to be confused with the right to travel over someones land, which is thankfully protected by Scottish law. The same Act which protects our rights to access also states, many many times, that litter must be removed. While what is considered litter is subjective, I would tend to take the view that it would be whatever the landowner considers litter. How many "stolen" caches have actually been removed or destroyed by the landowner because permission was never sought?

 

I personally will be seeking permission for my cache's to keep the landowners on my side. What others do is up to them and I have no opinion as to who is in the right or wrong of that subject. As stated earlier the forum post was intended to garner enough information so that I could make an informed decision on my cache placing strategy.

 

Once again thanks to everyone who has provided info and viewpoints.

[+Firth of Forth]

geoki Posted on Sep 2 2004, 09:47 AM

  It appears that our seeking permission from our local forestry has caused hassel. We are new to geocaching 

 

Geoki - Welcome to geocaching and to the Discussion Board. When such issues are not transparent, then discussion is good. It's likely that there will continue to be different views on this matter, and that cachers will adopt differing strategies. I don't think that there is a problem with this as long as everyone does their best to be responsible and promote the hobby.

[+Haggis Hunter]

on or in a building or other premises, whether enclosed or not

 

As geocahers we should have no reason to be on or in any building. I know of only one cache that is inside a building and I believe permission was sot for that.

 

you do not have the power of arrest for trespass and if a person refuses to leave, the assistance of the police must be summoned

 

If a farmer/landowner asked you to leave their land would you say no??

 

Ok, your rumaging about in the undergrowth and Mr Landowner comes along, he asks " oy you, what you up to?" What do you tell him?? oh, I dropped my wallet.

 

Of course not you tell him the truth, "I'm goecaching" now comes the blank look from Mr Landowner. So you spend half an hour explaining what geocaching is all about and then hopfully said landowner is a nice man and lets you get on with it (which most will) or he asks you to leave (which you promtly do without question).

 

Most landowners are reasonable people and tolerate us geocacher/hillwalker types on their land. So when one approches be reasonable back. Always works for me.

I was quoting the law with '*' to signify my interpretation, you are quoting what you would do in the said circumstances, which may and undoubtedly will be different from someone else, who believes that they have every right to be there.

 

I posted the above note because I felt that people believed that they could go where they wanted and no one could tell them otherwise. As I have pointed out this is not quite the case.

 

As for the buildings part, I felt that if I edited the statement, it may not cover everything that should be. So I left it as it is written.

[+snaik]

From Boots Across Scotland

 

Our informed source at Westminster has revealed the existence of a discussion document on the future Management of the Mountains and those who would choose to climb them. There has been no previous precedent and it has been framed round the conditions set by the Road Traffic Act. A few teething problems are expected but it is hoped that with the cooperation of hillusers it will soon be accepted as being necessary for the future well-being of the Mountain environment.

 

From the inception date of the new Act all persons who intend to ascend above the 300 metre contour will be required to register with the new authority informing them of their intentions and previous experience, if any. The application should be sent to the Mountain Users National Registration Organisation or Munro for short.

 

All those registered will be contacted by an inspector from Munro and they will be required to undergo a test of their hill knowledge and correct procedures when indulging in their chosen pursuit. On completion they will be free to apply to the authority for issue of a Hillgoers Licence which must be carried at all times when on the hill. The licence will only be issued when the applicant has successfully completed a rigorous climbing test which lasts for approximately one hour. As with the Driving test the candidate will be required to prove they are competent to be roaming on the hills and the test will begin with an eyesight test which requires the candidate to identify a Guinness source from 250 metres. Seat belts are not required but all rucksack straps must be securely fastened and free from fraying or defect. The route taken will be at the examiners discretion and is designed to test the candidate through a range of situations. At some point on the course you will be asked to perform an emergency stop, this should be done as smoothly as possible and any grabbing of boulders or trees will incur a fail. Do not expect any encouragement from the examiner as his bonus is equated to the number of failures he can produce in a week. After all, your intention is to walk and climb on what is, perhaps, his paymaster's property.

 

The test concludes with an "awareness" section which will confirm if the candidate has the ability to read the signs which are relevant to safe travel in the hills. A common sign which is often overlooked is the cows lying down, this will tell the experienced eye that it is going to rain. Or what about "Red sky at night shepherds delight, red sky in the morning shepherds roof well alight". It is hoped that someone in the private sector will see the need for alternative hill education literature.

 

Successful candidates will be presented with their licence immediately but do not think that this gives you carte blanche "Freedom To Roam", no, this is if you remember a registration scheme where as with other schemes the registered get clobbered. There will be Munro Polis who are empowered to stop any person found on the hills and demand inspection of their licence. It does not however end there as other factors pertaining to "safety" are now under their scrutiny- for instance tread depth on both boots must not be less than 2mm over all of the sole area, watch those toes and heels. All visible bodywork must be physically sound and free from defect, this means that varicose veins must now be covered.

 

Audible warning of approach is now required and a simple "oi you" is not acceptable and a bell will be the minimum standard acceptable. This has been introduced in Switzerland albeit on cows but it is hoped the system will have a big following in this country although caution should taken if you intend walking near to bulls. Lights are now required during the hours of darkness, candles will not be permitted the only exception to this rule will be when dealing with body functions however when lights are out "silent running" rules will then apply and no sound shall be permitted to be heard outwith a 10 metre radius.

 

A system of yellow lines will be introduced in the more popular areas to ease congestion at narrow ridges etc. Any stopping on a yellow line will incur penalty points which accumulate and could result in its withdrawal. The Munro Polis are aware of the effects of alcohol on hillgoers and will be issued with a bag which tells when you have had too much to drink. Some among you will already be married and have your own. No concessions will be made for "final summiteers" so be warned. You may well ask the name of the author of this document, it is a lad called George Orwell, we hope he got it wrong.

 

[+Pharisee]

Yeah... that should do it. The only thing they seem to have missed out is the installation of 'speed cameras' on the hill paths. These will definitely be needed if the likes of Haggis Hunter are to be 'discouraged' from racing off into the distance and leaving us mere mortals struggling in their wake.

 

[+Flyfishermanbob]

Typical ! ….. And they haven’t included the check that walkers must be properly attired. …..How often have you just cringed when you see those idiots facing the worst of the winter weather in last years Berghaus !!!! ?

[+Haggis Hunter]

Yeah... that should do it. The only thing they seem to have missed out is the installation of 'speed cameras' on the hill paths. These will definitely be needed if the likes of Haggis Hunter are to be 'discouraged' from racing off into the distance and leaving us mere mortals struggling in their wake.

 

I waited at the top, mind you it didn't help that we buried the cache under as many stones as possible. how long did it take you to find it.

[+Teuchters]

I waited at the top, mind you it didn't help that we buried the cache under as many stones as possible. how long did it take you to find it.

About 2 seconds......

[+TartanT]

I was quoting the law

 

You really should make yourself more clear in your posts.

I'm afraid I was very misled.

 

So now do I have to archive my Meadies cache as it's inside a building so to speak??

[+Haggis Hunter]

QUOTE

I was quoting the law

 

You really should make yourself more clear in your posts.

I'm afraid I was very misled.

 

The fact that I started by saying 'Section 57 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 states that', made me think it was fairly clear that the law was being quoted. I am sorry that I presumed that people knew what that meant.

 

So now do I have to archive my Meadies cache as it's inside a building so to speak??

 

As long as the building occupants/owners know about the cache and are happy for people to enter and access it, then I do not see any law being broken here.

 

If you are that picky over how the law is written then may I suggest a letter to your local MSP. As I have already said, I have only quoted it, I certainly don't have any say on how it is written.

[+TartanT]

Forget it, I do not wish to get into any slanging match on these forums or anywhere else for that matter.