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Benchmarks Not In Ngs's Database?!

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Hmm.. Okay. I do alot of driving between home (N. Garogia) and Gainesville, Fl. Because I do it so often, I stick to US41 as much along the way as possible... Eact time I go, I find sonething.. Well, I found this benchmark along the way..

"Station No C36 RESET 1957", Elevatioin is "Feet". (?!)

GPS reported it's coords at: N 29.70607, W 82.60813.

Image's Here (big, ~500k)

 

Tried to find it on the NGS lookup pages. Nothing. The closest one is PID AR1822. (Designation: A223). Doing a search for "C 36" shows something way down south.

 

So, what's up? I'm used to a LITTLE disrepcancy in reports, but nothign like this.. completely missing? Or 500 miles away from where it should be? Thoughts? I'd like to claim it and say I found it, but obviously someone had to put it there. :)

 

Me.

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You found a U.S.C.& G.S. benchmark. Many of their benchmarks have been incorporated into the NGS database that Geocache.com uses, but not all of them. It is possible to find one (or more) that you will not find listed on GC.com or even the NGS lists. Your find is most likely one of those marks - not 500 miles from where it should be, just not listed.

 

There are many local, State, and Federal agencies that set benchmarks, as well as private surveyors that also set durable marks. The U.S.C.& G.S. is (was) one of the federal agencies. Most of these marks do not get listed with the NGS. If you would like to obtain additional information about a particular mark, you can inquire with the agency that is inscribed on the mark (if there is an inscription.)

 

Good luck on your hunts!

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While trying to answer your question, I came across this site which has tons of cool surveying data for the state of Florida. Note that on your pic of the disk it says "U. S. COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY AND STATE SURVEY". I believe this means it was placed by the Florida Geodetic Survey, and not all of its marks were incorporated into the NGS database.

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BTW The USC&GS is the NGS. In my 20+ years of Geodetic Surveying I have never seen one of these. A good number of the USGS 'marks' most likely did not make the NGS cut due to the monumentation. They left a lot of UEs and TBMs out there that are good for field work but come up short as a true mark. A UE is typically a chisled square in a culvert wall and a TBM could be any stable vertical feature( we used quite a few rr spikes in utlity poles). That mark is quite unique. perhaps DaveD can ask Ronnie.

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You found a U.S.C.& G.S. benchmark. Many of their benchmarks have been incorporated into the NGS database that Geocache.com uses, but not all of them. It is possible to find one (or more) that you will not find listed on GC.com or even the NGS lists. Your find is most likely one of those marks - not 500 miles from where it should be, just not listed.

 

There are many local, State, and Federal agencies that set benchmarks, as well as private surveyors that also set durable marks. The U.S.C.& G.S. is (was) one of the federal agencies. Most of these marks do not get listed with the NGS. If you would like to obtain additional information about a particular mark, you can inquire with the agency that is inscribed on the mark (if there is an inscription.)

 

Good luck on your hunts!

There are many local, State, and Federal agencies that set benchmarks, as well as private surveyors that also set durable marks.  The U.S.C.& G.S. is (was) one of the federal agencies.  Most of these marks do not get listed with the NGS.  If you would like to obtain additional information about a particular mark, you can inquire with the agency that is inscribed on the mark (if there is an inscription.)

Hmm, thanks! Honestly, I wasn't even paying attention, as I never even noticed it had the "And State Survey" part on it..! It looks so much like the other 'Resets' I've come across. There's isn't an agency enscription, unfoprtunately... No clue as to whom might have origimnally put it in..

 

Mike.

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BTW The USC&GS is the NGS. In my 20+ years of Geodetic Surveying I have never seen one of these. A good number of the USGS 'marks' most likely did not make the NGS cut due to the monumentation. They left a lot of UEs and TBMs out there that are good for field work but come up short as a true mark. A UE is typically a chisled square in a culvert wall and a TBM could be any stable vertical feature( we used quite a few rr spikes in utlity poles). That mark is quite unique. perhaps DaveD can ask Ronnie.

Hmmm... thanks, I think! :rolleyes: It had its little white sign next to it and saw it one afternoon. Decided to turn around and mark it. (There's another strange one that IS listed on NGS that doesn't match the description, but I'm holding off on asking about that one until I can go back and get a little more info on it..)

 

Me.

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While trying to answer your question, I came across this site which has tons of cool surveying data for the state of Florida. Note that on your pic of the disk it says "U. S. COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY AND STATE SURVEY". I believe this means it was placed by the Florida Geodetic Survey, and not all of its marks were incorporated into the NGS database.

Hey, thanks for that site!

 

Looking at it, has a lot of neat features.. And it's STILL not listed. :rolleyes: Hmm..

 

Me.

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As noted previously by elcamino and TerraVador the original mark C 36 was set by the Florida Geodetic Survey as part of the Civil Works Administration (CWA), and the data was of insufficient quality to be included in the National Spatial Reference System. This particular mark was reset by USC&GS (now NGS) in recognition of their importance to local land surveyors even thought the data was published separately from the regular USCGS/NGS data. When NGS automated all data in the 1970s the decision was made not to support any marks for which the original observations do not exist in our archives. This and most of the other CWA marks in many states falls into that category.

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I found info on the original marker C 36. It was placed by the Florida Geodetic Survey (Fla. Geod. S.) in 1934. Note in the margin is handwritten the word "Reset":

c36.jpg

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As noted previously by elcamino and TerraVador the original mark C 36 was set by the Florida Geodetic Survey as part of the Civil Works Administration (CWA), and the data was of insufficient quality to be included in the National Spatial Reference System. This particular mark was reset by USC&GS (now NGS) in recognition of their importance to local land surveyors even thought the data was published separately from the regular USCGS/NGS data. When NGS automated all data in the 1970s the decision was made not to support any marks for which the original observations do not exist in our archives. This and most of the other CWA marks in many states falls into that category.

Hey, thanks! Were these ever recorded in a central database? (i.e. All markers for the state of Ga? etc..) I doubt it, but couldn't hurt to ask. :rolleyes:

 

Many thanks!

Mike.

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I found info on the original marker C 36. It was placed by the Florida Geodetic Survey (Fla. Geod. S.) in 1934. Note in the margin is handwritten the word "Reset":

Hey, cool, thanks. Where'd you find that, if I can ask?

 

(And I'm pretty sure that the "spike in the center of the highway" is no longer there..) :rolleyes:

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Information on these marks as well as USGS data can be found on the LABINS (Land Boundary Information System) site -- http://data.labins.org/2003/index.cfm, maintained by the Florida Dept. of Environmental Protection. This is one of, if not the best state web site for geodetic control information. You click on “Survey Data” and then Coast and Geodetic Survey third order for these marks.

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FYI...

 

They left a lot of UEs and TBMs out there that are good for field work but come up short as a true mark.  A UE is typically a chisled square in a culvert wall and a TBM could be any stable vertical feature( we used quite a few rr spikes in utlity poles).

 

I was curious about these abbreviations since I first noticed them on my USGS data sheets. The following comes from Dave Doyle:

 

UE is a Useful Elevation. These would often be marks that are not as permanent of regular bench marks (e.g. chiseled squares etc.). USGS was very fond of these as support for their national mapping program surveys.

 

TBM stands for Temporary Bench Mark.

 

In many cases there's not much difference between UE and TBM.

 

~Zhanna

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Some are of the opinion UE stands for Useless Elevation as many are impossible to recover today.

Edited by elcamino

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Not me.

I have found a bunch of my Quads UE's A,B,C's

Chisled Sqaure on Culvert,the one's that are hard to find are the chisled squares on rock in road where the pavement or chip and seal has obliterated them.

I looked for one the other day and the Maintainer had just taken out the whole corner of the County road at the location.

 

The metal rods are unique as well,the copper rod in Utility Pole,Tree,Railroad tie,etc...

 

I have found about 80% of the ones looked for.

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Around here they used punch marks in metal culverts, railroad spike in telegraph pole, chiseled X on rock etc. In all the 100 of so pages of USGS control from the 1911, 1917, 1935, 1937 and 1950 around here, I have found zilch. All these items are long gone.

 

Also once on a project we used on the those UE on an old bridge and it turned out to be a bogus elevation. From what we later determined, there was a typo, a 8 was supposed to be a 3, so were were 50 ft of the Quad maps contours for the hydraulic survey.

Edited by elcamino

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Some are of the opinion UE stands for Useless Elevation as many are impossible to recover today.

This is one of my favorites, from the Scranton, PA quad:

 

U.E., Elmhurst, 3.0 mi E. and N. of, along hwy., thence 1.0 mi N. along second-class rd.; 100 ft. N. of S. edge of large open clearing on W. side of road.; 12 ft E. of center of rd.; in root on NW. side of 10-in. maple tree; copper nail and washer

 

No, I haven't looked for it yet. GEO*Trailblazer, are you up for the search??? :o

 

~Zhanna

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I was looking thru my USGS stuff and came upon this sheet which should be a challenge to find.

Keweenawpt.jpg

Edited by elcamino

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<snip>

 

No, I haven't looked for it yet. GEO*Trailblazer, are you up for the search??? :o

 

~Zhanna

Scranton,PA. is a long way from Missouri but on my next trip I will.

 

I was there back during the Summer and got a few Loggable ones,William Penns Hat.

like National Monument to the Forefathers at Plymouth Rock,I would list them all but just do a search around Plymouth MA.

I liked Miles Standish Monument too.

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Hate to bump this old thread up, but you know, I remembered something I forgot to mention about my "C 36" find.. It had an 'official' (i.e. Same type as was near another find a little farther south in Newberry) USGS Survey Marker metal sign... Another reasoin I mistook it for an 'official' one.

It also had a newer 'State of Florida' sign as well...

 

Cheers!

Me.

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How and can a state marker be used as a find?? Then how can I get a picture on here?

The Tapps :D:o:D

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A state benchmark can be used as a find if it is in the Geocaching database. You can find out if it is there from the main benchmark search page.If you have the coordinates, or the info stamped on the disk, or the PID# you can do a search.

 

We have found a number of benchmarks set by state highway departments.

 

To put a picture on the forums the picture must be on the internet someplace (Usually it is on the page for the benchmark log.).

 

First you view the picture and then 'right' click on it and select properties. Highlight and copy the address. You then make your post as normal and where you want the picture to appear you click on the "IMG" button (just below where it says FONT) and then paste the address you copied.

 

You then hit 'Preview post' Below all the smilies. If you did it correctly you will see the picture.

 

John

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I found this benchmark last weekend. I was told about it by a surveyor at work and stopped by to log it on my way back home.

 

tt18d.jpg

 

This is where the bm is located on the Terre Haute, IN quad

 

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=16&n=435...d83&layer=DRG25

 

The benchmark does not exist in the NGS database. What is interesting is that a mark in the series TT19D which is only a couple of miles West is included and shown as being monumented in 1947. I submitted the photo to Deb Brown but since the benchmark does not have its own PID it cannot be included in the database.

 

The lesson I learned is that when I go into an area and there are BM markings on the quad map, even though there are no entries in the NGS database, stop and have a look anyway. This one is visible for 150 feet from any direction but was evidently forgotten about when the paperwork was turned in to create the database.

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This is where the bm is located on the Terre Haute, IN quad

Is this anywhere close?

 

LB2203 DESIGNATION - TT 18 D USGS 1948

LB2203'STATION IS LOCATED ABOUT 8 MILES NORTHWEST OF LA FAYETTE AND 2 MILES

LB2203'SOUTHWEST OF MONTMORENCI ON PROPERTY OWNED BY MR. RAYMOND BENNETT.

LB2203'IT IS 23 FEET SOUTH OF THE INTERSECTION OF STATE HIGHWAY NO. 26 AND

LB2203'GRAVEL ROAD NORTH, 4 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A CONCRETE FENCE POST AND 2

LB2203'FEET SOUTHWEST OF A WHITE WITNESS POST. THE MARK IS A

LB2203'6X6 INCH CONCRETE POST WHICH PROJECTS 2 INCHES

LB2203'WITH A STANDARD USGS BM DISK STAMPED TT 18 D 1939. A TRAVERSE

LB2203'CONNECTION WAS MADE FROM TRIANGULATION STATION INDIAN AND THE

LB2203'DISTANCE WAS FOUND TO BE 60.53 FEET (18.449 METERS).

LB2203'

LB2203'TO REACH THE STATION FROM THE JUNCTION OF U. S. HIGHWAY NO. 52 AND

LB2203'STATE HIGHWAY NO. 26 IN WEST LA FAYETTE GO WEST ON STATE HIGHWAY NO.

LB2203'26 FOR 8.5 MILES TO A T-ROAD NORTH AND THE STATION AS DESCRIBED.

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Colorado Papa,

 

Well it gets more interesting all the time. The quick answer is I don't think so even though the disk referred to is stamped TT18D. Now for the long explanation. The description seems to reference West Lafayette, which is about 2 hours North of here (Terre Haute). The highways referred to don't ring any bells either but those could have been changed since 1938, 39, 47 or whenever this mark was placed. I've also not seen reference to Triangulation Station - Indian either.

 

The coords. I logged are: N39 22.562 W087 25.555

 

Nice find on the disk stamp. I thought the database was only searchable by PID.

Does this mean there are two disks stamped TT18D in existance?

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Note

 

USGS had the habit of reusing station names in future years. Seems they only concerned themselves with not duplicating in the same quadrangle. Its not uncommon to find them

 

Here is short list of what I found in my state...go to NGS and type in the name and chose a state. You will get back a lot of info. Hint, only type "TT 1" as a wildcard and you will get more hits...

 

Oh and whats more and this is important to note, not all of USGS marks will be in the NGS database. USGS did not do the work to accomplish this, all their data is in manuscript form buried in archives. It would take years to database it and with the advent of GPS it is not cost effective to spend the time and money to do this when they can establish new marks with greater ease and cost. You can reques the data from USGS and the will supply it for a small fee.

 

|Dist|PID...|H V|Vert_Source|Approx.|Approx..|Stab|Designation

|----|------|- -|-----------|-------|--------|----|-----------

|....|NE1223|2 3|29/LEVELING|N425941|W0830135|D...|TT 18 B USGS 1943

|....|RL0588|. 2|88/ADJUSTED|N464641|W0883739|C...|TT 18 C

|....|RL0096|. 2|88/ADJUSTED|N464959|W0881531|B...|TT 18 C

|....|RL1698|. 3|88/RESET......|N464959|W0881531|C...|TT 18 C RESET

|....|NE1244|1 3|29/LEVELING|N425552|W0830838|......|TT 18 S

|....|RL0229|. 2|88/ADJUSTED|N461354|W0882653|C...|TT 18 S

|....|RL0809|. 2|88/ADJUSTED|N464355|W0890912|C...|TT 18 TX

|....|RL0803|. 2|88/ADJUSTED|N463918|W0891026|C...|TT 18 TX

Edited by elcamino

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Nice find on the disk stamp. I thought the database was only searchable by PID.

Does this mean there are two disks stamped TT18D in existance?

You must be refering to using GC for the database. I'm in the habit now I seldom use GC for my source of information. Unless you want to see if some other cacher has found the mark, NGS has more detailed and up-to-date info. When you access NGS Datasheets, you have the option of searching by the following methods:

 

PIDs - Permanent Identifiers

Radial Search - provide center coordinates and radius in Miles

Rectangular Search - provide min/max coordinates

Station Name

Project Identifier

USGS Quad

COUNTY

Load Date

Map Search - Interactive MAP retrieval.

 

It was simple to put in only TT for station name and select INDIANA. This TT 18 D was the only one for the whole state.

Edited by Colorado Papa

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elcamino & Colorado Papa,

 

Thanks for the help. I like the ease of use of the GC database and it's helpful to read the notes from geocachers who may have visited the mark since the last entry on the NGS data page. After reading many entries around the forum, the GC database isn't complete so having access to the NGS pages will be very useful. Hopefully I can use NGS to fill in the gaps in the GC database. Especially when a BM appears on a quad in an area where there are no entries shown in the GC search results. I added the NGS link you guys sent me to my Geocaching Resource Page. I always carry a quad with me when I visit an area but with no description of a GC unlisted, all I could do was make a quick 2 minute look-a-round.

 

mrh

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mrh - terre haute: The mark you found TT18D is listed in the USGS control publication for the 15 minute Terre Haute Quadrangle and is described as 1.6 miles east of Prairieton, thence 0.8 m north, 600 ft west of the Hull Cemetery,near the south 1/4 cor, section 21 T 11N, R9W in the edge of a field with an NAD 27 position of 39-22-33.51N, 87-25-33.17W and an NGVD 29 elevation of 499.154 ft. This station along with many thousands of other USGS marks was never autormated by USGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System.

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DaveD.

Thanks for the reply. That describes the mark to a tee. I imagine that having that information would go a long way toward aiding in the search of and the identification of marks that don't show up in the NGS database or the Geocaching database used by amatuers such as myself. Any chance it's online anywhere? One other question: Does the "control publication" list the total number of benchmarks on the quad? A 15 minute quad is probably going to have a big number.

 

mrh

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No to both your questions.

 

Here is the place to contact for data sheets.

 

U.S. Geological Survey

Mid-Continent Mapping Center

Earth Science Information Center (ESIC)

1400 Independence Road, Mail Stop 231

Rolla, Mo. 65401

 

Toll Free 1-888-275-8747

Phone: (573) 308-3500

Fax: (573) 308-3615

E-mail: mcmcesic@usgs.gov

 

Here is what they sent me:

 

Mike

If you know the 7.5 minute (1.24,000) quad name we can figure out the 15 minute name for your given area. All you need is a regular index of topographic names. We sell our control in 15 minute quads for $1.25 for vertical and $1.25 for horizontal or $2.50 for both. The Traverse Point 15 minute quad would be only $1.25 for the whole folder because there is less than 1 page of horizontal control. There are only three quads that border #354 Michigan because on the East side is Lake Superior. The three quads you need to go with #354 (Traverse Point) are #346 (Skanee), #355 (Lake Linden) and #360 (Eagle Harbor). There is also a $5.00 handling charge for your order. The best way to order is to call us with your credit card order or fax (we will call for your credit card number) us an order. That way we can lower the prices according to contents in folder.

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elcamino,

 

thanks for the reply, that's great info. It would be interesting to know how many marks were actually placed in a quad since counting "BM"s is not all that reliable.

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In the top right and bottom right of all Topographical maps is the INFO you need.

Example(mine)

 

CASSVILLE,MO.

NE/4 CASSVILLE 15' QUADRANGLE

N3637.5--W9345/7.5

1974

DMA 7257 III NE-SERIES V 879

I wrote the Rolla Office and asked for the Fieild notes for the quad.

I got a list back of 70 or so descriptions of the BM's and X's on the Topo map.

These being described just like the NGS benchmarks.

 

IE, At the Oak Grove School House in the West step, 5' from the SW corner of the building,a standard tablet stamped TT 44C 1926.

 

A chilsed square in the concrete abutment in the center of the South headwall.

 

HISTORICAL TOPO'S

Edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1

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Know the feeling... I logged a couple benchmarks thinking it would be something to add to geocaching, but it seems that over half of the ones I find are not listed... Think I'll stick to geocaching and not worry about benchmarks..

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Edscott,

 

Here is a link to a post I wrote while back concerning why some survey markers were not on geocaching.com. You can read it Here.

 

One way you may find it more efficient to hunt Benchmarks is to do a zip code search or a Latitude and Longitude search of the area you intend to be geocaching in, just in case. It will guide you to what is worth hunting and what is not. If it is not listed, it is not worth hunting for geocaching scoring purposes. You can find that page Here.

 

Enjoy!

 

Rob

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Funny how you never read in the caching topics that someone was out hunting for a benchmark and ran across a tupperware container that was not listed on GC.com :D

 

Don't know how many times I have been out and about and found an altoid tin or film canister only to come home and look on gc.com and find out that it is not listed as a cache.

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Gee, ain't that the truth. I found a backpack with pencil and notebook that I was sure was a logbook. But it wasn't listed with GC!!! Shame!

 

Should I go into one of the GC forums and complain about it? :D

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