evenfall

Am Playing Nice Max, Said nothing Inappropriate. Even meant it in a good natured way. If you want to advocate that Geocachers Illegally enter Railroad Rights Of Way when you know it is dangerous and illegal, be my Guest. I would have thought an official Moderator would caution Players away from Danger and Trespassing. But Instead you caution us to play nice for speaking of this? Interesting. I figure You are just Laying For Me Max. Looking for a reason to School Me. Again. Looks like I am probably right. That last time you gave me a week off sure showed me... I'll be a good boy! Now, Please envision me looking over the tops of my sunglasses at you Max. Because I am. (Nicely) Please Don't allow your personality differences with me and dislike for me affect the way you do your Job, Max. I am playing by the rules and I expect you to moderate by them. So far there is nothing we needed a moderator for here. From the outside looking in you have a problem and are taking this way to serious. It should be fun and not a job. Remember? Most people say Yadda Yadda as a Joke, Is this serious where you live?? Your Presence around here pretty much settles that. A few of us here know you have an over-spirited interest in us. Relax. We are having Fun. Well were having fun. Matt and I know... We the trouble causers. We know you are the Sheriff around here. Your Bosses know my opinion of that too. I am just saying that there is nothing I say that you need to moderate. Nothing has been said in or out of context that requires your Moderation. Never has been, not really. Trust Me, If I want to pull the trigger on Nasty, I wont do it here. Not because of you or rules but because of my respect for others here. But you and I differ on the need to Moderate, Don't we Max? Since I am nearly the only one you ever have publicly tried to direct in the history of this Forum. You have your Pets, I understand. I am in compliance with the rules and don't need a reminder. Please don't ruin the fun for me, and a few of your other favorites, Ok? Oh, I liked the UNK1 Moniker. Glad they could help out. Merry Christmas Max, Oh, Happy New year too. Rob

"1.5 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE EAST CORNER OF BUILDING 27, AND SET IN THE TOP OF A CONCRETE POST PROJECTING 0.4 FOOT ABOVE THE GROUND." Your Photo Confirms this. But in 1945 this was a USAAF Air Field, and now it is a County Prison Facility... What I would like to know is if the building is still referred to as Building 27, and if current maps of the facility could have driven you straight to it. If not, are historical maps of the facility available which could have helped... he Facilities people knew where building 27 was... How were they able to know? Read some of the history about this... Googled more. Fun read, Thanks. Rob

I know Matt, But we Gatta Yadda For the Noobs! Dead Horse, Beat. Yadda over! Rob

As a Rule, One should be really careful on Railroad Right Of Ways, Blah, Blah, Blah, Yadda, Yadda... Either no one "gets it" or cares... Beyond that, There are no rules you can live by on this stuff, Some railroads are abandoned, some aren't and all maintained different. Further, I have noticed different practices in different regions from when they were set in the first place. There are a lot of things we accumulate in learning to find these. Just take it all in and use what you know. If you didn't find it after a reasonably diligent search, It probably isn't there. Go look for a different one. Oh and remember Yadda Yadda too... Railroad Cops love it when you forget these days. Rob

Scaled Coordinates are not notoriously Bad, they are inherently inaccurate. These are only on Vertical control anyway. The survey was never about where in the first place. But they get you in the ballpark. If you find it, feel free to improve them. Triangulated Coordinates are not Notoriously Bad, they are better than you can derive without Survey instruments. With survey instruments it will take you some time to properly verify anything, other than to concur with the datasheet. You cannot improve on them and the difference you may be witnessing in your equipment is it's inherent inability to derive a better more accurate solution. There is a difference, it is important to the conversation to know this, but I would never go as far to say that coordinates are bad, and include Horizontal control in my discussion. As I said. Unless you are a Surveyor and can check it out, you can't reveal any inaccuracy with consumer grade gear. The most you can find wrong is likely a typo. Rob

You all have become quite better at hunting in the last year. Makes me smile. I enjoy sitting back and watching these days. Thanks, Rob

Has anyone considered applying for a Government Grant to help offset the costs of looking for this one Survey marker? The Man hours of thought and contemplation have got to be worth hundreds of thousand alone at this point, especially if this were really billable work! We could inquire to NGS to rename this station in the honor of the attempt to find it, and then begin a commemorative event, based around the reset which is a special geocaching station stamping... Rob

Gosh Klem, I thought you knew... I guess the benchmark gig has you looking at the ground all the time. While you were looking down, NGS enacted a pilot program where GPS satellite data is cross compared between CORS stations using REN antennas in the 177 MHz Range. These are a full wave loop antenna, allowed to swing in the wind, yet used for a more stable match to the transmitter while bi-directional tropospheric ducting processes are underway. The unregulated Beat tone derived from Lobe to null is sub audible at 2.5 Hz, .27 Microvolts. Thus Resulting in a 5/9 sig report almost anywhere you ask, but only when WX is windy. The info is then downloaded via STIMPY conversion techniques so it can then be collated further. C'mon Klem, You gotta keep up! Glad I could help get you caught up here... Rob

For your Perusal: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/150...netic_pole.html Any thoughts or Comments? Rob

Buck, So Ah... What do you do in your spare time? :-) Yeah, Post them on your website. You never know what may happen to this website. Being able to download a state might be cool. You may even be able to broker a deal to use the updated data as a bone to toss Geocachng so their Data becomes a more current copy. I like the way your thinkin... Rob

If you work with TOPCON Survey equipment as I often do, you already utilize GLONASS birds for fixes. It adds to system reliability by roughly doubling the number of strong signals which can be used over the course of a day by a great deal. I have even observed where TOPCON has maintained higher accuracy over similarly equipped Trimble systems during difficult time where NAVSTAR Constellation reliability was low. I think the good Stamp of approval on RINEX 2.11 will help a lot. The GLONASS usage by TOPCON is a proprietary deal, and this will offer it's competitors a way to increase availability and reliability. Thanks for sharing Casey, Rob

Dave, I have discussed some of your difficult finds with you and know how hard you have worked to find them. If you say you did 200 in a day, knowing you, I'd likely lean forward in my chair and listen intently! Thanks for clarifying Dave, Rob

Before we all dive in here trying to guess until we are dead, there is some respectful reservations I would like to ask us all to consider. Here is something which we can all agree is an understatment. Surveying is confusing. If one does not know what the last surveyor did and why, then replicating the results which by the way is the goal here will be difficult. I work in the profession and I have been there done that. That said, I feel we lack enough information to even begin to speculate. Going on, if one has everything right, then the results will duplicate. If we are observing a rotation in a survey originally performed by professionals, then more research needs done. Something is being missed or misinterpreted. As of this writing, all anyone can do is guess unless more data, real data about this specific survey is provided. The Big But, here, is that this geocaching forum is not the correct place where legal property boundaries should be discussed. it is both off topic and since no one here is likely to be licensed to survey in the State of question, then it is dangerous to discuss. The appropriate way to ask this question is by asking the firm who conducted the survey. If you approach this right, they may be more than happy to explain their approach and meanings without charge. Geodetic Surveys are different animals than Legal property surveys. Both are important and are means to different ends. Beyond utilizing similar skills and instrument by Surveyors, they really are different animals. Beyond that, State Plane Coordinates are commonly used by surveyors all day long, everywhere you go. Nothing secret there. It is not a secret nor difficult to understand. Magnetic References are really weak references for any kind of a survey these days, yet if I describe the declination I had at the time I did something, then if you came along 50 years later and observed the current declinations, using a compass, the notes should jibe. Pole shifts are well, a nice distraction for the dinner table when Anthropologic discussions are being held. As Holo pointed out, there are many versions of Grids which are being used in local ways. Again, anything beyond stating that is guessing. Many People work in the Survey field and are well trained. Local knowledge is always a big factor. Geo's reference to major errors isn't really safe to say because without the proper training and research, what any error which may or may not be, or actually is, is hard to ascertain without the qualifications and experience needed to determine what and if they exist in the first place. As a for instance, Downtown Seattle has Streets laid out in many different directions. There are historical and geographic reasons for this. One was Elliot bay long before its present shoreline was as it is today, and the location of a particular Saw Mill owned by one town Father who's skid road for transporting logs to the mill, (yes, the namesake for the term skid road) was pointed in the direction where the mill owner owned the logs he was milling, and so formed the prime meridian for street direction in that part of Seattle. Later, downtown Seattle's grid direction was changed to north when a different town Father came to power, much later in time. The big point here is that we need to know this history in order to know why. If you leave Seattle, none of this really matters. Cadastral survey descriptions take some of these things into account. State plane Coordinates work just as well to describe a location but they do not take any of it into account. They rely on the grid. Ok That said, Let's exercise some caution about discussing specific legal surveys here. Rob

Photobuff- Q1; You are not seeing false coordinates, you are seeing the use of the state plane coordinate system. Every NGS Datasheet not only includes the Latitude and Longitude, but the State Plane Coordinates (SPC) as well as UTM Grid Coords. SPC is a local coordinate system used in zones all over the US for control that is based on a grid that is flat, and does not take into consideration the curvature of the earth. They are kept to small local zones so that the curvature of the earth does not affect them. SPC was created by the NGS back in the 1920's and 30's when they were known as USCGS. We actually use the SPC a lot more than we use Latitudes and Longitudes for local control. Some GPS can utilize SPC as a Datum... What you are seeing as 7.3 degrees is interesting, but I am not clear as to why. You don't have instruments that will reveal why either, But the surveyor or firm is licensed so.... Perhaps they can explain it, since they performed the survey. There may also be references to the Cadastral method of surveying on your diagram as well. Q2; 1942 was the year the Geodetic Surveyors passed through your area to perform leveling. Leveling or Differential leveling is the surveying process we use to determine the elevations of things. You can google for further info. Vertical references were typically never given precise horizontal locationing data. The elevation was a Bench Mark, the location was a Triangulation station in the purest form. Back in that day we used Mean Sea Level as a reference, today we use a combination of references to determine elevations. They are all part of a formula that uses a reference ellipsoid that approximates sea level globally, a reference that measures the gravitational strengths of the earth, and physical measurements as well. The way we look at it today removes the sea from the equation due to it's lack of stability. Too many things affect the sea to make it a valuable reference for geodesy. Before Satellites, it was all we had. Hope that helps answer your questions, Rob

Please remember that the NGS does not update their database on the basis of satisfying a regular dissemination of statistics for people playing a game. As has been discussed, Deb Brown has needed some time away from the office, and Craig Larrimore, one of the Website IT people recently Passed Away. The latest data is the latest data and the primary users of the data are fine and will remain fine with what is until it gets updated. I have every confidence that things will be updated in good time. The answer to your question is be patient. It will happen as soon as they get things sorted out. I am sure they are looking for someone who can do what Craig used to do, and that may be a higher priority right now.

It likely means that her boss, Burt Smith will be helping out, that and whomever he delegates, as is a bosses prerogative to do. Please know that they are still interested in hearing from you and please feel free to write in. Rob

Bill, More than the physical condition of the station is that the station and it's data must jibe in ensemble. The condition of both would be good at best, but you know... We don't always get that. Perhaps it was destroyed in error, who knows. The man hours and budget needed to officially put this station back in action, if it is considered desirable to do so, and considering that NGS would need to be running a program in the area in order to re-include it to the database create a nearly perfect storm. <evenfall reaches for his magic 8 ball> I got, "Don't Count on it." Rob

I think that if you click on the NWIS link that Z15 provided, you will see if that mark belongs to a listed Real time station. Real time stations are fun to keep up with by the way.... Rob

You don't have to agree, But that doesn't change what is true. A rebar driven perpendicular to the ground in the place it was properly determined to be driven, is industry standard for property line work. It is more precisely located than the width of any fence known line, so what more could you ask? If Kenewah set rebar 6"under the ground at your property corners, I can assure you that those corners would be pretty safe, very stable if your soil is. His notes would tell the next surveyor where they are, and other people would not know where they are in order to fool with them. This protects you. They are as accurate as is needed for property line work anywhere in the USA. Best Regards, Rob

Well how'd I do? I like the work you have done! You have tried to be very conscientious in your hunting and recovering. Here is just a comparison of how we in the Survey field might approach this given stations recovery info: "Found Dallam 1950, all disks are in good condition and are legible. All disks appear to have held position well." We might say instead: All Caps: "STATION AND ALL RM'S FOUND IN GOOD CONDITION." You are submitting this info to the PID for DALLUM 1950, so the correct name will be assumed. Please try not to refer to the "seems" about positions as you could call position into question by saying so and you don't have the equipment needed to verify it. Just say you found them and they look good :-) It is really important to stick to what is and not what seems. If you found them and one looks like a lawn mower scuffed the disc and the center is no longer got the triangle or the arrow, what have you, you could say it looks poor. You could say why it looks poor too. A few changes to the area include: All Caps: "DESCRIPTION UPDATES WILL INCLUDE: or, TO FIND UPDATES WILL INCLUDE: Sand Springs Methodist Church building is no longer standing, but the foundation corners are still present. All Caps: CHURCH BLDG REMOVED, FOUNDATION CORNERS STILL EXTANT AND USABLE. We have to be as brief and succinct as we can as there may be a lot we find needing to update, but there is only so much room we are allowed to use when updating. You get the idea... :-) - Beechland- Quality Road is now paved. Good! But can you treat this as an update to the "to reach"? Is the to reach still adequate? if so, good, but note that the said road has been paved and that the church building that will be looked for is torn down though the foundation still exists. A surveyor may be looking for a gravel road and a church during the to reach part. People tend to think in chunks. The to reach is a different chunk than the to find... - {{Reference Mark 2 is on the South side of Beechland- Quality Road, the Cemetery has now extended to both sides of the road}} Good! But this part: "making the description confusing". is not important, instead, can you add something that will add to the ability to find RM2? Can you reference it's location to something new yet permanent? can you make it less confusing? Something that will help? Just add that which adds value. {{Azimuth mark was found in good condition, it is in visible sight in a modern fencerow.}} Good! But can you better define the type and style, or appearance of the fence? What does this fencerow seem to form the border of, and what directions is the fencerow running? Is it a galvanized chain link fence running 210 degrees true? Is it a split rail cedar fence running 100 Degrees true? Believe it or not, I am not sure what you mean by a modern fence... Sorry! Are you refering to the age of the fence? Will the fence still be modern in 50 years from today? Do we know what will be considered modern 80 years from now? Is the fenceline overgrown with brush or is it currently maintained? will it be maintained in 25 years from now? How many posts from the corner of the fence (which corner is important too) is the AZ mark closest to? True will imply to me that you did compensate for magnetic declination when you were there. In 100 years Declination will change some but if I observe this, true will still be true, then. Could you check in and confirm the distances to the RM2 and AZ Mark and confirm them? Heck get RM 1 as well. This will remove any doubts cast by the 1952 survey. {{Azimuth Mark Coordinates taken with handheld GPS, averaged. N 37*01'59.6" W 086*51'46.6"}} This part is not necessary. This is a First Order Horizontal Survey Marker which in both cases was surveyed using a Tower 26 meters high. This was around 85.3 feet above ground. This is the highest optical accuracy possible and a hand held GPSr is not capable of bettering it. The best time to report coordinates is when you have found a Scaled Bench Mark. That always helps us find those easier because they are rarely accurately horizontally located. Hope those pointers help you out, and by the way, Nice Job! You were quite thorough and mindful of what you wanted the description to have! HTH, Rob

Just a Surveyor's word of caution on these particular station marks. Looking for these seems very cool, but, these are not for the meek. If you choose to hunt these, prepare well. Do not hunt them alone, plan, your trip, dress in layers, pack for a big hike, wear sturdy boots, Bring maps and compasses, GPS if it will work under heavy tree cover, Extra batteries, Conserve Batteries, Food, Extra water, first aid and blister meds, cell phone, and conserve it's batteries too, and check in at the Ranger's Station, especially if you intend to really go deep. If you feel your current state of health is not up to this, then see a doc, work out and work up to it. The real world can go from easy to as hard as you have ever had it in these areas before you realize it. These are remote and alpine locations in some cases, and even breathing can be harder than normal. These Station Marks will be off trail, and surveyors go where the survey needs to be, not always on the groomed trails, so it can be really tough dangerous terrain. We tend to have to put these markers where they need to be and they are not always safe or easy places to get to... Get in the habit of watching where you put your feet and testing your footing before trusting it. Walk lightly. Ankle health is really important out there when your ankles and feet are all you have. Try your best to refrain from running, unless it is an emergency. It is a lot safer to walk. The weather in some of these places can be very hot, very cold, and known to change very rapidly, so be aware of this and don't go if the weather looks like it could be dicey. Prepare that it could happen anyway, because it sometimes does, hours after you start. It is so hard to predict the weather, but you could want shorts and long johns on the same hike. Gloves and caps are a good thing to bring too. This time of year, it is colder than you think. Please trust me on this. Prepare that you could meet up with some forms of wildlife that may take exception to you being there. Prepare that you could be there after dark if something does not go quite right. I would not like to see anyone having to cut their own arm off while trying to save their life from a trap or injury. These border markers are after all what mark the borders of our national parks and some of these locations can be very, very remote. This is just a heads up, to be careful. Civilization can be miles and miles away. Many of you may know this, and I am not saying move your whole house out there, but much of the stuff I have outlined should be in your vehicle so you have what you need when you assess the situation you have before you, this way you can adapt right then and there. Some of this stuff you will always want along. I know some like to pack light, but remember you are hunting for survey markers and this means extra stuff as it is, and again, this is not where the public is generally going to go in the park, so what we commonly think of as a park trail is not what we will find out here. It is worth a reminder to us all anyway. A little safety meeting is always worth checking in on. Good Luck, remember not to go these alone, and stay safe! Rob

As a For instance, in a different scenario, Sometimes a job needs done and does not require a lot of engineered control. A surveyor, or someone familiar with grading techniques will pick a spot and drive a survey marker, such as a hub in the ground and assign a fictitious elevation to it such as 100.00 feet. From this reference the job could be surveyed and graded so that water runs to drainage, based on relative checks of elevation based on the reference mark. Anything found to have an elevation less than 100 feet will be down hill from the master mark and anything with an elevation over 100 will be up hill, and they can then determine how the drainage is working, that the best percentages of grade are being used for the amount of water this area is likely to receive on average, and if it is not satisfactory they can design it to be satisfactory. As a rule, the water that falls on that property is not allowed to leave the property except via a storm drain, so the object is to make the water run to the storm drains. So determining the elevations of all the drains, which should be low points is important, and then determining where the high spots are and where places which water may not flow from high to low are is important, so that all the water can be made to flow to the drains. There are a few other things we may want to know such as the elevations of the main road and entryway, the sidewalks and wheelchair ramps, maybe some other details which may be specific to the job, and note their elevations in relation to everything else as well. When the job is done, the water will do what is desired, and it wont matter that the job was not connected to the rest of the world in a geodetic way. That reference hub which was assigned 100.00 is removed or forgotten and is now in a planter or a lawn or well, who knows. Like my scenario, This is likely a local control situation and is only keeping track of it's own internal situation, for it's own monitoring sake. HTH, Rob

I too would agree with this evaluation.

Yup, You are over thinking this. There is little to be gained by being overly specific when the monumenters were vague in the first place. It really is hard to get something from nothing. I think we can agree that we have seen a lot of time go by and the changes may have lost this station. From the crossing, Just walk 53 feet in the most easterly direction. You could try using both the Centerline Of Road and the Edge Of Pavement to help define your area. Once you are there look in the northerly direction, and define a 10x10 search area right there and look. If it isn't there, It isn't there. It happens to Scaled Benchmarks and such, a lot. Good Luck. Rob

I have set rebar that you better bring something big, yellow and named Caterpillar to pull out! Some ground is HARD! I have pulled stuff out with a D-6 that when the chain came taut on the rippers, the cat changed directions! heheheh! Some people Hate survey markers near their property though. They are hoping to gain land via adverse possession laws, and sometimes they succeed. Rob