What's Wrong With Geocaching?

November 25, 2003

The recent letter to geocaching.com from the USFWS caused be to ponder a few questions.

What makes geocaching different than other "traditional" recreational activities?

Why do some government agencies feel the need to outlaw it?

Is the geocaching community's attitude causing this? Attitudes like "we must ask permission", which implies that there is probably something wrong with geocaching.

How about the attitude of geocaching.com of allowing anybody that can produce a government title to stop geocahing in public lands maintained by the agency that person claims to represent?

Are we our own worst enemy by not standing up for our rights?

November 25, 2003

What makes geocaching different than other "traditional" recreational activities?

One thing that often is mentioned is that some caches are setup (especially micros) so searchers root through the ground cover, overturning rocks and logs, which isn't so bad in itself, if they return the rocks and logs as the found them....like the weathered side of the rock up, and the ground side down, so that every thing looks like you found it. But there are people who don't to this.

Another issue is the "burried" cache. We're not supposed to be burrying caches, but I've seen a few that that are pushing that rule. For example, I've seen caches that required a hole to be dug so that a cooler would fit down into it. The clooler (whose top was at ground level) was coverd with a big rock. The finder didn't have to use a shovel, but the placer sure did, so I'm not sure if this could be considred a buried cache or not....it could go either way depending on your viewpoint.

I've also seen a few placed in animal burrows. If it completely blocks the entrance for the animal, it may be depriiving them of habitat, or, God forbid, your timing might place a barrier between young ones and their adults. Or just stress them out when you're searching too close.

I'd say these caches are a small minority, but their existence can cause some bad PR.

George

November 25, 2003

For my caches placed out "deep in the woods" (see this page) I give total spoilers in the hints and include labeled spoiler images just so noone will have to root around and tear up the cache area looking for the cache. They are hidden well enough that noone but a cacher would find them. With these caches, the pleasure is in getting to the cache, not fiding the cache itself. IMHO, more cachers should take this attitude when placing caches in wilderness areas.

November 25, 2003

Caches placed on one's own private land and open to geocachers--properly managed--is also another idea.

38.2k · November 25, 2003

Mostly, it's ignorance about our sport. It's new, it's something they don't control, so it must be bad. Therefore they must ban it, or regulate it.

Sure there are some caches that are poorly placed. Caches should't be placed in archaeological sites, or in the nesting grounds of an endangered species, nor should they be in "sensitive areas" (but how many areas are truly sensitive?).

In the previous example of people overturning rocks...OK, it looks like crap and if some ranger comes by to check on the cache and sees the "damage", it may give the sport a black eye. But are a bunch of overturned rocks real damage? If so, we'll have to get rid of all the bear in my local parks, because when they come through an area looking for grubs and insects they turn over every rock in sight, and certainly don't place them back weathered side up (I think we'll have to have a talk with our furry friends about this).

Another concern that some have is the creation of herd paths (a.k.a. social trails). The few that I've encountered were similar to game trails worn by deer and other animals. Hardly serious enviromnental damage. But the authorities picture the hardpacked and/or heavily eroded trails, similar to the ones that lead to the local partying spot in the woods, despite the fact that this is rarely the case.

Edited November 25, 2003 by briansnat

1.3k · November 25, 2003

I think we need to be honest about a few things about geocachers as a group.

1) Some people are just jerks.

2) Some people do what sounds like a good idea to them without looking for group concensus.

3) Not everyone "trashes out"

4) Not everyone asks permission.

5) A lot of people place / have placed vacation catches.

6) Not everyone maintains their caches responsibly.

7) Some people seem to have very spoiled attitudes.

If we're honest about these things, it's a lot easier to see the sport as it may be seen by others. If rangers are finding ammo cans filled with junk (and there are a lot of threads about junk filled caches) in parks that they're responsible for and they didn't know the cache was there, they aren't gonna be happy. If they find one with fireworks in there (I did), I'm positive they aren't gonna be happy.

Add to this the wonderful PR generated by Magellen (thread 54302) and you shouldn't be surprised that things aren't going as well as one might have hoped.

21.9k · November 25, 2003

We are an easier target for regulators/land managers because we publish on the internet where to find the evidence of our activity. Imagine a world in which poachers maintained a website where they state the latitude and longitude coordinates of their hunting stand, and the date they'll be there. Enforcement would be a bit simpler. The same goes for ATV riders traveling in areas where ATV's are not permitted, campers who make campfires in no-fire zones, and every other infraction of land use regulations. "I'll be traveling through your park on June 14th if you'd like to catch me."

My post is not meant in any way to pick on people who enjoy hunting, ATV riding or camping in accordance with the regulations... which is 95% of us. Similarly, it is probably the 5% of bad geocache placements that make things tough for the rest of us.

38.2k · November 25, 2003

We are an easier target for regulators/land managers because we publish on the internet where to find the evidence of our activity. Imagine a world in which poachers maintained a website where they state the latitude and longitude coordinates of their hunting stand, and the date they'll be there. Enforcement would be a bit simpler. The same goes for ATV riders traveling in areas where ATV's are not permitted, campers who make campfires in no-fire zones, and every other infraction of land use regulations. "I'll be traveling through your park on June 14th if you'd like to catch me."

This is very true. I've seen geocaching banned in areas that are little more than illegal dumping grounds for all kinds of houshold garbage and construction debris, or are being torn apart by illegal ATVers. A local national wildlife reserve comes to immediately to mind.

Geocaching is an easy target for the rangers because they know where to find us. They can easily act against this "scourge", by jotting down the coordinates and taking a walk out to the cache to confiscate it (and arrest the offender if the recent memo is accurate).

And while the rangers are busy going after our caches, the illegal ATVers who took a lovely, 2 ft wide hiking trail and turned it into a 15 ft wide mud pit, brazenly carry on. The people who dump their old refrigerators, tires and the remains of their recent bathroom renovation, do so with impunity and the hunters who are out jacklighting deer, or bagging them out of season go unhindered.

Edited November 25, 2003 by briansnat

1.7k · November 25, 2003

In addition what to brinsnat and bons said, this activity involves hiding a container which most other activities do not.

The word "hiding" is usually a negative word.

Leaving a physical container for anyone to find/use/steal may cause concern. The imagination can come up with many things that could happen. Most do not happen. Either way, most activities that are approved don't revolve around leaving physical items around.

Also, geocaching used to be "under the radar" - an underground activity. Now it is trying to take its place with other recognized activities. I think government agencies usually think that "new" equates to "new headache" that must be dealt with.

Other activities may view the new upstart as a threat, although I don't know why. Some Caver and Hiker and Mountain biker organizations' forums seem to view us that way. There have been disagreements (on the Internet and in real life) which cause some other groups to want to actively work against us.

What to do to correct this?

In my opinion, all this boils down to our public image.

One thing that would help geocaching in general is to clean up our image, and the "face" we present to the public. Reduce the negatives and increase the positives.

Negatives:

There are forum posts made that make cachers look like rebellious, gun-toting, rule-breaking, drunks. (To combine several threads all into one.) Unfortunately some agencies may focus on those bad threads/posts and ignore the majority which are good, informative, and/or fun posts that show that some folks do care for the environmental impact, "family values", fresh air and exercise, and all those other things that agencies like to see.

The militant attitudes, the demanding of non-existing rights, the "I'll place a cache there anyway" statements, bending or breaking "rules" all hurt us as this presents them us as factors to be controlled or regulated. I would rather we police ourselves instead.

Even though I support gun ownership, I am embarrassed by several threads and posts that make it look like most geocachers "pack heat". Some even talk about almost drawing down on suspicious noises or people. There is no way those threads will be seen as any way but negative.

Positives:

I prefer to work WITH these agencies instead of against them. It takes MUCH longer but I think the benefits will be better for all.

I have been working with KC Parks to determine policy, so I can place a cache, for well over a month and I dread some other cacher placing a cache in the same place while I am working on this. However KC parks not only is going to allow geocaching, but they want to use caching as a way to bring people into the parks. They have even suggested some nicer parks to place caches in, since my evil 2-stage micro will be in an out of the way park.

I also have asked the county parks for permission for a Night Cache - although they have approved other caches in the area, they are moving slowly on this as the thought of folks in the woods at night may be scaring them.

But I still think we need to ask and educate.

Also, I use "official" CITO trash bags - and try to leave the full bags of trash in appropriate disposal places, but obvious to those that want to take notice of the good we do. It is cheaper to use grocery sacks, but I like working on our image.

The choice is either to stand up, be recognized and scrutinized, or lay down and try to sneak around unnoticed.

Edited November 25, 2003 by DustyJacket

1.6k · November 25, 2003

I like the idea of working to determine what is acceptable. I am always reminded of an unfortunate incident in a state park here. Other state parks are full of geocaches, I infered that there was no prohibition to placement of geocaches in our state parks. I asked the ranger of one to place a cache there and was told that he didn't want one in the historical area or on the bluffs. Not a problem as for the life of me, I couldn't think of a good place for a cache in those areas. I placed one along an established nature trail in a non-historic area of the park (old river bottom). The storm we got into was totally unexpected. The state finally admitted that they have no rule for geocaching except that each park gets to make up its own rules and change them at any time without notice. This gets better. One of the parks that has two caches in it in a wilderness area of the park decided without public input to ban hiking between 8 am and 4:30 pm all summer long as they had horse rides and hikers could spook the horses. This had the effect of negating nearly all access to these geocaches for the summer.

Bottom line: I would love for the sport to sit with land managers and define what is and is not legal. (I would be happy to help as needed)

Once established, legal geocaching is defined, and caches that don't fit into the definition are archived and the owners are identified to the land managers for legal action as necessary. Then, once and for all, we could know who to ask, what to expect once we get an answer, and whether that answer applies to more than one piece of land, and who to talk to if some midlevel decides to shut off your cache without bothering to tell you.

November 25, 2003

Here in New Jersey, any land that is not preserved (read: bought by increased taxes) is going to be sprawled over within the next twenty years.

The political system is crassly corrupt, and that includes both major parties and runs from top to bottom. The developers pay the campaign tabs of both Democrats and Republicans (but are delighted with one-party rule since it costs them less in legalized bribes.) The system has little will or motivation to change, and the electorate keeps voting the same rascals in. The state bureaucrats are on board as well.

Many municipal and county governments also have a habit of selling off supposedly preserved land to developers. For instance, I've actually seen Green Acres money leveraged to build superhighways, and toxic junkyards spin-doctored into "wildlife sanctuaries." (A fine use of preservation tax dollars!)

One positive benefit of caching in this political environment is that it increases the public's use of preserved areas. It also focuses public attention on these areas. This is vitally necessary both to preserve open space, and to keep it preserved.

In the long run, allowing people to indulge in a sport that increases the use of public land also protects the jobs of people who manage that land. Perhaps if the bureaucrats understand this, they'll leave us in peace.

Edited November 25, 2003 by Team Og Rof A Klaw

1.7k · November 25, 2003

....and the owners are identified to the land managers for legal action as necessary....

I agreed up to that point.

I don't agree about GC.com identifying cachers for legal action. For many reasons.

(Although there could be exceptions for blatantly criminal actions, I don't think this would count.)

1.3k · November 25, 2003

If GC is issued a subpeona, they have no choice but to give out the information. Simple as that. Don't blame them for that.

38.2k · November 25, 2003

One positive benefit of caching in this political environment is that it increases the public's use of preserved areas. It also focuses public attention on these areas. This is vitally necessary both to preserve open space, and to keep it preserved.

In the long run, allowing people to indulge in a sport that increases the use of public land also protects the jobs of people who manage that land. Perhaps if the bureaucrats understand this, they'll leave us in peace.

Well said Team OROAK!!!!

November 25, 2003

As a private land owner, granted it is just a house in a subdivision, I agree with the government on having a say in placing of caches. However, the government is holding the land in trust for the citizens. Remember that as citizens we have the right, obligation and duty to protect our land. A good example of government hold land in trust is dedicated streets, alleys etc. If several adjacent land owners wish to vacate an alley, they must approach the municipality that is in charge of its upkeep. The municipality then must publish meeting times and mail out information to those that might be affected directly. Public input must be documented in the vacation ordinance so that people know that they had the right to object.

The purpose of the explanation of a vacation of a public right of way is to show that with a little thinking outside of the box, we, as geocachers, might be able to force the municipality (National Parks, National Wildlife etc.) that banning or rules without public input is not entirely correct. If we could open the discussion to the public, then a decision made by the managers would hold more weight for those that are for allowing geocaches and those that think there is a problem. Maybe with proper public input will our argument be strengthened or found to have some flaws that we, as geocachers, need to adjust to.

As I have been taught, if you have a complaint make sure to have a constructive solution. I feel that if we encourage regular, public input into geocaching regulation, that we will be justified as to our activity.

November 25, 2003

Traditionally I am totally against any governmental regulation of any part of our citizen's lives, but a recent geocaching nightmare has me rethinking my position. I am the guy who's cache was taken by the local police dept (search for "Jail House Cache"), and after rehiding the cache I was totally dismayed to find the cache gone once again. But the worst of it was that whomever took the cache completely destroyed the area in which it was hidden. If I didn't know better I would swear that soimeone took a bulldozer up to the site and leveled the whole area within a 20 foot radius of the cache (Note: there is no way a bulldozer got up there). And since the damage was only where my cache was, and since the cache was known about because of the newspaper article, it could have been anyone. Needless to say I archived it because of the damage.

November 25, 2003

I am still confused at parks that allow ATVs and have areas for 4-wheeling, but disallow Geocaching on the grounds that it can lead to social trails forming.

2.3k · November 25, 2003

What makes geocaching different than other "traditional" recreational activities?
Why do some government agencies feel the need to outlaw it?

IMO, one of the major reasons that geocaching gets a bad rap: People trample over bushes and break trees as well as cause damage to commercial and private property while geocaching. You might not want to hear that, but we ALL know it's true and can remember specific examples that we have seen. Doesn't happen all the time, that's not what I am saying here, but it DOES happen.

5.9k · November 25, 2003

....and the owners are identified to the land managers for legal action as necessary....

I agreed up to that point.

I don't agree about GC.com identifying cachers for legal action. For many reasons.

(Although there could be exceptions for blatantly criminal actions, I don't think this would count.)

I'm getting singled out again?!?! What gives?

38.2k · November 25, 2003

after rehiding the cache I was totally dismayed to find the cache gone once again. But the worst of it was that whomever took the cache completely destroyed the area in which it was hidden. If I didn't know better I would swear that soimeone took a bulldozer up to the site and leveled the whole area within a 20 foot radius of the cache (Note: there is no way a bulldozer got up there). And since the damage was only where my cache was, and since the cache was known about because of the newspaper article, it could have been anyone. Needless to say I archived it because of the damage.

That wasn't a geocacher, it was a cache thieif. A cache thief has no respect for property, public or private and it's obvious by both his theft of your cache and the way he tore apart the area.

People trample over bushes and break trees as well as cause damage to commercial and private property while geocaching.

I've yet to see any serious damage in 200+ cache searches. A little trampled grass here and few turned over rocks there, but that's all. Are there people with no regard for the area around the cache, sure. But thankfully they are few and far between. Edited November 26, 2003 by briansnat

2.1k · November 25, 2003

I think something you people have to remember is that this listing service (GC.com) plays under a really good rules set that means if followed the results will be highly environmental friendly and inobtrusive to wherever the cache is hidden.

This is not the only listing service. Other listing services do not have to use our rules (no burying, no food, etc). These agencies such as FWS are making rules against *all* geocaching not just geocaching.com.

With their current regulations, they can not discriminate a GC.com cache from any other cache and so they ban all caching.

While most people know geocaching.com as the hub of all things geocaching, there are other sites and even individuals who may want to do their own thing and the parks/land managers/administrators need to be able to control all of that even if it does infringe on our ability to play our version of the game in their lands.

1.3k · November 26, 2003

These agencies such as FWS are making rules against *all* geocaching not just geocaching.com.

Have the other sites also recieved warnings from the FWS?

38.2k · November 26, 2003

Have the other sites also recieved warnings from the FWS?

As of yesterday, NC.COM did not. Whether we like it or not, GC.COM is the public face of geocaching. I think it's great that they attempt to be responsible and place limitations on the caches that they list...but I'm in the minority.

1.7k · November 26, 2003

Of course, we still don't know if this is official policy, or just one person.

Or do we?

November 26, 2003

I don't understand why a cache can't be placed on federal land. Federal land is all of ours as far as i'm concerned. I guess me walking through the woods messes everything up, but a 500 lb bear doesn't disturb a thing. I love the enviroment just as much as the next guy, but these enviromentists wacko's are crazy.

1.7k · November 26, 2003

There is no ban on all Federal land.

Just certain parts.

The wildlife reuge areas for one, and all NPS lands for another.

I would tend to agree w/ te Wildlife Refuge areas (even if they should look at currently authorized activities a little close), but disagree with the NPS blanket ban.

Unfortunately, neither organization asked me first.

2.3k · November 26, 2003

What Public Lands allow Geocaching activities ?

The National Park Service absolutely DOES NOT allow Geocaching on park lands. The Bureau of Land Management may allow it, you should check with the local office of the area you plan to visit. The Forest Service does allow geocaching activities on some of their lands; it is best to call ahead to the public lands you plan to visit to see what the local policy may be towards hiding caches. Many state parks and state public lands also have their own policies regarding geocaching. You should be sure to check with your local park authority before planning any geocaching activity.

November 26, 2003

What Public Lands allow Geocaching activities ?

The National Park Service absolutely DOES NOT allow Geocaching on park lands.

WHY?

What's Wrong With Geocaching?

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