Help! Dealing with city about geocaching, need advice!!

August 2, 2003

I have been writing the local powers that be on the subject of Geocaching. The BLM and state are cool with it.

The city on the other hand gave me this reply to my asking if they had any policy about the sport. I changed the name and removed the phone number:

quote:
Good Afternoon Mike,

The P&R Division Manager and I have discussed this new game and felt that there may be opportunities in our larger parks for geocashing on a trial basis. We felt that there would be need to have guidelines established and that if we found that the use created conflict or there was non compliance to the guidelines that we would end the permitting period and this trial activity.

The following are some up front thoughts on geocaching. We would limit park use to allow one cache in the larger local parks such as RJS Ruth Arcand, Kincaid, and Section 36 and up to two caches in Far North Bicentennial Park. We would want the person establishing the cache to register, giving the location of it and establishing a responsible person through our permit process for the season. The cache would have to be above ground, painted/decorated not to be obtrusive and can vary in size from a 1 gallon paint can up to the size of a milk crate/ 5 gallon bucket. Cache contents guidelines would need to be created and prohibit items that are illegal and items such as guns, knives, ammunition, explosives, fireworks or pornographic materials/photos. At the end of the summer, the cache would be removed by the permittee. This activity would be established on a trial basis and monitored over the summer to see if there are any problems. New areas maybe allowed only after an evaluation of the trail period at the above parks.

We would need your assistance in setting up the guidelines and help in monitoring use. Technology has introduced many new activities to recreation. GPS technology is spreading and through the establishment of the game we are hoping that we may help new users learn how to apply the technology in a controlled setting.

Please call me at xxx-xxxx to set up a time to meet, confirm our understanding of this new tech game and to begin to set up the frame work of this park use experiment.

John Q. Park Manager

I have emailed a few local cachers about this and would like to have a few of us meet with the city officials. I am also thinking of taking in a sample cache to show them what the typical cache has in it. I also emailed the city the FAQ page to help show what the "official" geocaching rules are.

Perhaps a visit to a cache or two? There are couple dozen caches already in city parks. I would hate to have them call for their removal. It has been suggested that I take them near a cache (50to 100 feet)and have them try and find it without a GPSr to demonstrate how they are hidden from the general public.

Any advice you can give on educating local government on Geocaching would be appreciated.

I think they will have no problem with caching as soon as they learn about it. Just need to figure out how to do this.

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

August 2, 2003

Click here.... http://www.mi-geocaching.org/ and you'll find on the left side of the page some links to parts of the MiGO home page. Click on the one "Contact Us"....and leave a message. The steering comittee will get back with you with some stuff we recently wrote just for your situation. Good luck....it sounds like you've got a good situation there. Your handling it great so far....

If God is your co-pilot, it's time to change seats!!!

http://www.mi-geocaching.org/

4.7k · August 2, 2003

this past spring i worked with a park dept. near me and their original posotion was that they'd have to have waivers from sll participants.

i asked them to consider it along the lines of my bike club decides to ride through their park on a sunday morning.

the position is now modified to allow it on a trial basis, and they've made some sensible requests as to what area not be used.

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

21.9k · August 2, 2003

Their proposed permit process is not very different from what is already in place at a lot of other park systems, like the one here in Pennsylvania that I keep close track of. See my profile for details.

They seem reasonable so work with them. At the end of the trial period they'll see that there has been no or minimal physical impact to the park. (That's because you'll make a very intelligent choice for the cache location... straightforward cache designs work best for permit areas.) Consider getting some local cachers together to do some Cache in, Trash out work at the parks where the caches are placed, to further help this argument. Geocaching brings the kind of people to their parks that they WANT to have in their parks.

Thank you for your efforts.

--------------------

Saving the day and approving all the caches... before bedtime!

August 2, 2003

It does sound like you're starting off on the right track, and their conditions are normal ones to start negociating from. The key is educating them about the sport, if possible getting them out actually doing it.

The area geocachers do need to be extra careful about showing the sport in it's best possible light, though - emphasize cache in/trash out, be sure any caches that have social trails are moved, etc. One tool I've found helpful is a spreadsheet that illustrates (and minimizes) the environmental impact of caches.

If you'll make a spreadsheet listing the caches, listing how many months they've been in existence, and how many finds they've had, you can have a final column with a visits-per-month calculation. I did this with a local park and once it was seen that the average cache was only visited once every couple of weeks it really helped in minimizing the impact the sport had. Obviously old caches will have had fewer visits per month than one that was just placed, but in most parks it averages out to something reasonable.

Do not, however, show anything that illustrates the meteoric growth of the sport. I've had that backfire when a park manager envisioned the 7 caches in "her" park growing to 70 in a year if she didn't put a cap on the number.

It also helps to hi-lite finder's logs that say things like "I would never have known about this cool park were it not for your cache; I'll be back with the family" and show those to the park management.

Best of luck!

~erik~

August 2, 2003

This could be touchy, but pointing out that caches already exist and have been in operation for X period of time already satisfies their "trial" period. Also, you can point out that all their restrictions are already against the rules in this activity/hobby (NOT game/sport).

Print out the appropriate guideline pages from GC.com, and they'll be delighted to learn they don't have to "police" a self-moderated activity! (Anything that eliminates work for any employee, especially a municipal employee will delight them--there is no need for them to recreate the wheel.)

Hope this helps,

Randy

August 2, 2003

Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming.

I just hope they dont get angry when they learn that there have been caches in local parks for nearly two years.

I am a bit suprised that no one had asked them about it before. I would rather contact them than have a park official contact us after finding a cache.

The spreadsheet idea sounds good. I will also take in the regulations of other cities as well as what the state has told me. Hopefully it will not get too bogged with paperwork for those wanting to place caches.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

August 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:
I just hope they dont get angry...

I hope they don't have enough time on their hands to track them down and remove them!

quote:
I am a bit suprised that no one had asked them about it before.

!?!! It's far easier to apologize than ask--especially when you are likely to be denied... Didn't your Mom teach you that?! {Grin}

I wouldn't be too specific when you enlighten them to how many pre-existing there are, just a total number or they might freak and pull them. Or point them to the "other" caching website! {Heh..}

Good luck,

Randy

PS: Luck = preparation meeting opportunity; hopefully they'll give you the opportunity and your preparation will enable things...

24.7k · August 2, 2003

Alaska was/is cache deprived which rather suprised me. The letter is thoughtful and well meaning especially in light that geocaching is still in it's infancy there.

Your approach and their response is a good start. Summer only rather bugs me. Many areas have ski trails in the winter, either by grooming or defacto users. (Same with Snow Machine Trails) No reason those people can't go geocaching. But that's just something to work out.

August 2, 2003

Sounds like everyone has some pretty good advice here. I keep thinking, however, that none would be needed if you hadn't sought the city's advice in the first place. After all, many "authorities" seem to develop the need to run around exercising their power just because it is there. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off as a sneek, but it doesn't suprise me that the city, or state, or whoever would take it upon themselves to find issue with a sport they obviously have no clue about, given the chance. Geocaching exists now, with sensible rules in place, for cachers... I think that's enough.

August 2, 2003

I would rather be contacting the city about geocaching rather than have them contact us about a cache that a park official stumbled upon.

I feel it is best if we make the first move in iniating contact. It makes a better impression and saves the appearance of doing something wrong.

I think things will be fine up here once they learn about this activity and how little impact it has on the terrain.

I put together a little spreadsheet and listed 15 caches in local parks. I listed how long they have been there, how many visits total and a average of visits per month and visits per week.

The busiest cache over 4 months old gets 2 visits a week. Most get less than one. Not much impact there.

I want to get some of the more veteran cachers up here involved in the process. Would be nice to get a few of us together with the city in forming guidelines that all can live with.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

August 2, 2003

One of the best things about Geocaching, to me, is that it is self regulating (rare) and functional (more rare). I sincerely hope that it stays this way. I do, of course realize that the sport is still evolving, which can be good, but I also feel that it could very easily be "regulated" into something less. As for saving "the appearance of doing something wrong," I don't feel one bit guilty about participating in the sport the way it exists already. I applaud your activism, but I just don't see the need. Prepare for the fight, but avoid it at all cost. By the way.. good luck.

38.2k · August 2, 2003

Unfortunately, you may well have jeopardized the existence of those 15 caches by drawing the authorities attention to them. You may get the opportunity to place one or two caches with approval, but I'm sure you won't be making a lot of friends among the local geocaching community if that causes their caches to be removed.

In some places the authorities don't know about geocaching and in many more, they do and look the other way. Unwilling to give it their official sanction, they give their tacit approval by doing so. Then some earnest, well-meaning geocacher comes along and demands that they officially sanction the sport, which opens up a big can of beans...and the results are often not favorable for the geocaching community.

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on August 03, 2003 at 08:43 AM.]

August 3, 2003

I do not believe that Bilder was demanding the city sanction geocaching. He simply asked what the Municipality of Anchorage's thoughts/rules were when it comes to geocaching in the cities parks. Nobody wants to be cited for doing something that the local government deems "illegal" in the city parks. As for the list of geocaches it is very unspecific, listing only the park and average visitors. It's only purpose is to show that the experiment the city wants to conduct has been going on for 2 or more years and that us geocachers are not harmful to the park environment.

38.2k · August 3, 2003

quote:
Nobody wants to be cited for doing something that the local government deems "illegal" in the city parks

If you check the published park regulations and don't see a prohibition of geocaching, why would it be illegal?

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

August 3, 2003

quote:
Then some earnest, well-meaning geocacher comes along and demands that they officially sanction the sport, which opens up a big can of beans...and the results are often not favorable for the geocaching community.

I am not demanding they sanction anything. I wrote an email to the city parks manager asking if the city had any rules in regards to geocaching. If they dont care, all the better for us. If they do care, then we had best work with them in putting together some guidelines.

What would happen if geocachers dont ask for permission and place caches anyway? In a few years some park official will stumble on one or the bomb squad will be called to blow up an ammo can found in the woods. What then? How can that look good? Is it not better to address the issue with TPTB and help set some guidelines that both the city and geocachers can live with?

Here is a copy of the email I sent them:

quote:
I was wondering what the Park's Department stance is on Geocaching in city parks.

http://www.geocaching.com

Geocaching is a high tech treasure hunt game where players hide "caches" and

post the GPS coordinates on the internet. The goal is to find the cache and

log your visit. The website I listed has an explanation as well as

guidelines on cache hunting.

I am thinking of placing a couple caches in local parks and was wondering if there are any regulations or restrictions. Geocachers are mostly responsible hikers and

outdoors enthusiasts who respect the environment and are sensitive to where

they place a cache.

One of the many parts of the game is the Cache in Trash Out program where

picking up litter is encouraged while out looking for caches. I personally

have picked up over 7 bags of trash from Anchorage parks this summer while

caching.

Anyway, if anyone can let me know if the city has any rules

regulating Geocaching I would be interested in hearing from them.

Thanks,

As for the spreadsheet, I have inlcuded 2 caches I have placed on city land in the list. If the city wants them removed, all they have to do is come to gc.com and look up which ones are in city parks. I am not giving away anything that they cannot look up themselves.

It is best to set up a good relationship early on rather than get on the bad side of some park official later. There are only about 2 dozen total caches in town that are on city parks. The remainder in the area are on state or federal land. Better to address the issue with only 24 caches than 600.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

August 3, 2003

BrianSnat has the best idea. Check the existing regulations. This works advantageously in many ways. By doing this rather than asking, it is already decided. Only if there are specific laws that prohibit some aspect of geocaching would one need to solicit explicit permission. Really. Otherwise, it is a valid argument, and is likely to go a long way with public officials, to say 'I checked the laws and there was nothing prohibiting it.' Why ASK someone who is probably not a lawyer, doesn't usually take risks, and can make you go away with a 'no', whether or not it is a valid answer, when you can go READ for yourself on the internet or in your library, and find out for real. Everyone, on both sides, is protected - even if

your cache if found accidentally, the law prevails, which you've already checked.

We have a body of law, let's use it. And yes, bomb squads have blown up caches before. I reckon that's to be expected now and then. WWYD? Hide your caches well...

Thanks

astrojr1&G-O-GardenerGal

August 3, 2003

A most amusing thing occurred in a Palo Alto park. There was a cache concealed in a palm tree. My caching partner and I got thoroughly scratched up looking for it without success--our fault, nothing wrong with the cache. Subsequently someone accidentally found it and turned it in to a park ranger. The ranger took the trouble to go to the web site, to register, to write a note about the cache, which then got put on the disabled list. The ranger subsequently hid the cache in a new place under his own login name. So that's a great story: a new cacher was born!

August 4, 2003

There was a cache quite local to us which was handed in to lost property at the park. Luckily the ranger had been asked if it could be placed there and left a message on GC.com for someone to collect it and replace it.

We noticed that the original placer hadn't been around for a while, so made contact with the ranger and replaced it.

On our travels that day we spoke to three different people who worked there about geocaching who didn't know about it. One ofthem even chatted about the ammo box she has painted up which she uses as a hangbag

Even better, the ranger has visited the cache on christmas day and left a message for any cachers that may pass there in the festive season, and another ranger had added some trades from the park gift shop

Thank goodness they asked before hand, as I probably wouldn't have offered to fetch it and get it unarchived if I had to go tail between legs to apologise.

Sarah

--

August 5, 2003

First meeting with the parks dept is Wednesday afternoon.

Just hope I got my act together and can give a good presentation of Geocaching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

2.5k · August 5, 2003

Here's a thought... But if you have a meeting with them... make some of those cache in trash out film canisters (you know, the walmart bag in an empty film canister) and give each of them one... if they know that we're making an effort to beautify the parks then they will be more open to caching... and a CITO container that they can hold in their hands will make the idea more concrete.. Some people can't visualize ideas that aren't familliar to them.

September 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Unfortunately, you may well have jeopardized the existence of those 15 caches by drawing the authorities attention to them. You may get the opportunity to place one or two caches with approval, but I'm sure you won't be making a lot of friends among the local geocaching community if that causes their caches to be removed.

Then some earnest, well-meaning geocacher comes along and demands that they officially sanction the sport, which opens up a big can of beans...and the results are often not favorable for the geocaching community.

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on August 03, 2003 at 08:43 AM.]

Absolutely not! If our sport is to become legitimized that means we need to become involved with the process itself. Sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that it doesn't matter won't work anymore.

It is unfortunate that a few caches might have to be moved or archived, but it would be even more of a disaster if those state officials ruled that "Geo Trashing" was off limits statewide since no one stepped up to the plate to explain, inform, and invite along.

Bilder is doing the right thing, and doing it the right way!

If you have any questions, bilder, please email me.

September 2, 2003

How did your meeting go?

quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:
First meeting with the parks dept is Wednesday afternoon.

Just hope I got my act together and can give a good presentation of Geocaching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

Mickey

Max Entropy

More than just a name, a lifestyle.

Help! Dealing with city about geocaching, need advice!!

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