Pantalaimon's Cheers and Jeers: Edition II (Archival Of All Your Caches in Response to a Pirate)

[+cmarrero]

I wrote to the sysop of the pirate caching site about the action of his group and this is the reply:

 

Thanks fer yer input. The New Jersey Pirate who clames to have taken all the caches is an imposter to the real Pirate who only moved the items about 100' of so.

 

As fer the hooligans, Aye I have me a few and I understand the need to leave somthin fer them. Thats why all the Pirate who list on me site are asked to follow me rules. We started by removing everything except the log book but now we leave a nice pack of Pirate toys. The cached we did take are slowly being returned with better stuff and more of it. My group no longer takes the whole cache and if we did it would be replaced with in a short distance of the first cache.

 

It be people like ye who help me to work out the trouble with PirateCaching.com

 

Thanks again,

The Captain

[+Metaphor]

Sorry about the jibe, Brian, but at first, I thought I could hear you talking with a tongue in your cheek. However, watching this unfold makes me think you are serious.

 

First, I can only see this expanding, if left unchecked. I may have just lost a bug near Gainesville, FLA to someone who calls himself the Bug Exterminator, and the rash of caches being plundered by these simpletons, as well as the fringe who "clean up" caches from areas they see as thier own private playgrounds, all imply that this callow behavior is on the rise, not the wane. Besides making chest thumping gestures, what can be done?

 

Several suggestions have been offered -- eliminate the travel bug icon on the individual cache page, hide coordinates to the general public, make it pay-for-play, banning accounts -- all of these hurt the game, but as the pirates multiply, measures will probably be necessary. As this site, being the biggest, implements more controls, the other websites will grow, until they too face the same attacks.

 

We can all guess that the pirates and exterminators watch these boards to get their gratification. What they don't seem to get that while the one or two who started this may think it is the coolest thing they have ever done in their lives (pathetic though it may be), thier actions are encouraging others who are coming into geocaching to destroy the fun of the game to a much wider audience. Unfortunately, cancers don't usually go away without treatment.

 

For all the apologists and supporters out there: don't give aid to these jerks. For the pirates: think about what your behavior says about yourself, that you would selfishly degrade something that makes so many people happy. When geocaching becomes restrictive and prohibitive because of your actions, what will you choose to destroy next?

 

"All of us are standing in the mud, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

[+Metaphor]

Team Merraro's response from the pirate confirms what I said about cancers growing.

 

Here's my challenge to the pirate: You claim to be ethical in the way you plunder. Now, you can see that your "game" is spawning copycats who don't have the same moral view as yours.

 

What should you do? Close down your site.

 

(I doubt though that you are as ethical as you want to appear in your description of your rules.)

 

"All of us are standing in the mud, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

[+mozartman]

once again, radical geezer states it perfectly.

 

earlier in the thread, he came up with a great idea on how to deal with the whole situation (with an addendum by Pantalaimon) that I think would work. Check it out.

[Trogdor!]

Well put Radical Geezer. I see your points. I want everyone to know that I in no way support the distruction of caches as apparently continues to happen in NJ.

 

But again I am not about to join a lynch mob at this point. The game doesn't have to be a kiddie game with Barney toys and Teletubbie stickers! I think there could be room for more mature variations.

 

Thats it! Those who have kiddie caches could put a little Barney icon on their page and that way the Pirates could avoid the rage of the PTA!

 

When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

[+Metaphor]

I might be a little slow. Explain it to me how adding needless frustration, annoying innocent players, creating disappointment and bad feelings, and outright theft of cache materials is a more mature version of the game?

 

"All of us are standing in the mud, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trogdor!:

The game doesn't have to be a kiddie game with Barney toys and Teletubbie stickers! I think there could be room for more mature variations.

---

 

You may be right - but any variations of the rules need to be agreed to. At present, by playing the game on Geocaching.com, we have all effectively agreed that one finds the cache, signs the log book, takes something and leaves something of equal or greater value, and otherwise leaves the cache exactly as it was found. Beyond that, we follow an ethic of respecting the property of others, without which, Geocaching, in any form, could not exist. If someone wants to ethically engage in a new game, where caches can randomly be moved by "surprise", then they would either have to get a rule change adopted by Geocaching.com, or start a new Geocaching site with different rules, and its own cache listings. If you think such a variation would be widely supported then I suggest that you conduct a poll to find out.

 

Please note that the persons engaging in this "variation" which you appear to support, do call themselves "pirates", which I accept as a candid acknowledgment that what they are doing contravenes the common Geocaching ethic of respecting the property of others.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

[+Team Og Rof A Klaw]

The basic trouble with rules is that, if there's a motive, opportunity, and means to break them on anyone's part, then then they're only effective to the extent that they are enforced.

 

Enforcement is fundamentally a sink for energy and time. The hours of work that go into enforcing a rule could go into hunting or placing caches, for instance.

 

I'm a great believer in making rules self-enforcing wherever possible, so no one has to play police. To make a rule self-enforcing, you have to remove or reduce the motive, opportunity or means to break it. There are varying ways to do this.

 

In this case, one might:

* Reduce the motive to pirate by placing only virts and micros.

* Reduce the opportunity to pirate by logging the individuals who are interested in going after a particular cache. I.e., you'd have to identify yourself to get the coords.

* Reduce the means by placing caches that are more difficult to go for than the pirates think is worth it.

 

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Og Rof A Klaw:

The basic trouble with rules is that, if there's a motive, opportunity, and means to break them on anyone's part, then then they're only effective to the extent that they are _enforced._

 

Enforcement is fundamentally a sink for energy and time. The hours of work that go into enforcing a rule could go into hunting or placing caches, for instance.

---

 

Up until now, the "honor system" has been an effective, low maintenance method of enforcing the rules of Geocaching.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

[+Team Og Rof A Klaw]

Well, that time is past now, ain't it?

 

Want to reduce plundering? Change the game.

 

Plundering acceptable? Make no changes.

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Member's only caches won't work. The pirates are encouraging each other to pay $3 to get the coords for member's only caches and plunder those.

 

For those who favor the pirates. We had one in Arizona this past spring. No plunder was ever returned, and some caches were archived because of it. Most importantly, new cachers, in private e-mails to me, told me how they might not continue with caching because of the negative aspects of the pirate. Try telling me again how you think this is a positive activity.

 

Till a voice, as bad as Conscience, rang interminable changes

On one everlasting Whisper day and night repeated -- so:

"Something hidden. Go and find it. Go and look behind the Ranges --

"Something lost behind the Ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go!"

 

Rudyard Kipling , The Explorer 1898

[Cupajo]

quote:

---

Pirates are no better than terrorists. But you still have to live your life.

---

 

First of all, are you seriously trying to draw a comparison between somone who flies a plane into a a skyscraper with someone who hides a box of Happy Meal toys? That's assinine and more than a little insulting. Please think before you post flotsam like that.

 

That having been said, I do think these pirates are acting a little childishly. It could have been an interesting twist to the game if they had acted in concert with the original cache placer. Say someone places a chace in a great scenic location without a lot of other caches nearby. The 'pirate' contacts the cacher and asks if he wants to make it a surprise multi. Then the two of them move the cache and put hints at the original location. Had that been the m.o. of the pirates, I don't think there would be too many complaints with them Sure, maybe it doesn't fit in with the scurvy sea-dog mystique, but it still would have been interesting.

 

Caching without music is like swimming without water.

[+mozartman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking:

Member's only caches won't work. The pirates are encouraging each other to pay $3 to get the coords for member's only caches and plunder those.

 

For those who favor the pirates. We had one in Arizona this past spring. No plunder was ever returned, and some caches were archived because of it. Most importantly, new cachers, in private e-mails to me, told me how they might not continue with caching because of the negative aspects of the pirate. Try telling me again how you think this is a positive activity.

---

 

the Arizona "pirate" as TM and DV said, just took cache contents and never gave them back, which is apparently what some of these "pirates" are doing. I don't think we should be more accepting of any of them because some are only "moving" the cache instead of "taking" it. they are doing this without permission from the cache owner, so to me, it's just as if a plain ol' muggle took it or ran off with it, and that's how I would treat it if it happened to me. Still sucks, tho.

 

these "pirates" are forcing a variation of the game on unsuspecting cachers whether they like it or not, not asking permission of the owners, and not getting approval from the general geocaching community, and all of that is ... well, wrong. and in my opinion, it's not even a very interesting variation on the game!

[+Brian - Team A.I.]

Anyone know how to get the DNS servers to redirect piratecaching.com to http://www.goat**.** ?

 

Not exactly a family friendly visual, but it would send a clear message as to what we consider those who plunder.

 

Brian

Team A.I.

[+Doc-Dean]

quote:

---

Originally posted by carleenp:

I think a good response to the plundered caches would be no response. Simply disable the cache with a note saying that there is a problem with the cache and never mention the pirates.

---

 

After reviewing the entire thread, I think carleenp has the best idea. They obviously are thriving on the attention they are getting right here.

 

This is the reason for which I have not made any presence on these threads about pirates until now.

 

The best way to deal with these people is to completely ignore them and move on. When they see that no one is playing their game and no one is talking about them, they will lose their woodies and go home!

 

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

And may no Admin bricks fly your way

[+planetrobert]

ARRR mate,

 

me thinks the ideal solution is to pirate the pirate. in other words me thinks we should be a stealin their game from them.

 

1 - Dont respond to their taunts

2 - replace your cache "loot" asap

3 - take their cache boxes and make them your own for new caches

 

If this do nay stop them, lord help us all. we'll all be swabbin the decks soon.

 

Now where did I set my GPS??? planetrobert.net

[+Xitron]

I both agree and disagree with alot I have read here in this forum. First off I believe andone who takes or destroys a cache should be drawn and quartered, they are not helping the geocaching experience in any way. Anyone that would intentionaly destroy something someone has put both time and money in is in my book an a$$. Having said that I know this next comment will draw alot of flames, (puts flame suit on now), If the new breed of pirate removes the loot leaves the log book and a toy for the kiddies, moves the cache a 100feet away and leaves the coords in the orginal cache to where it is I would find it a bonus multi if I found it. Also if the pirate put more loot in the new cache and let me keep the container to place my own cache, say an ammo can, then I again wouldn't have a problem. I do see why people would resent having their caches moved, but if we have to deal with pirates I'd rather deal with ones that didn't just steal everything and not tell anyone, then ones that move the caches a 100 feet and leave coords to the new location. I know of no solution to the problem of caches being pirated or just stolen except to remove all the caches, and that would kind of defeat the purpose of this sport. If you need help replenshing your cache let me know I will be happy to pitch in, maybe we should make a forum/fund raiser for plundered/stolen caches.

[Snipe33]

Why not setup a real juicy cache and stake it out with some large camo'd friends?

 

Some stupid people (i.e pirates) deserve to have their butts kicked all over the forest.

 

Snipe33

[+Xitron]

I thought about that already, are you reading my mind? I'd love to catch one in the act, but I think I'd use a paint gun. They sting like sh$$ if hit close up without protection. Plus that fact they will have to explain to whoever they go home to why they are covered in paint.

Still I don't think that would work, so I refer to my past post.

[+Dave_W6DPS]

The one fact that I think these "pirates" and their supporters seem to forget is that without those of us who enjoy hiding and maintaining quality caches, there is no geocaching.

 

If "pirates", or other low-life jerks, make it less enjoyable to hide caches, then there will be less caches.

 

Every plundered cache, and every annoyed cache owner, diminishes the game.

 

If enough of us reach the point where we archive our caches and find another hobby, where does that leave geocaching?

 

Tread softly, those of you who condone and support organized harrassment of cache owners!

 

Dave_W6DPS

 

My two cents worth, refunds available on request. (US funds only)