snakes and bees, oh my!

November 2, 2003

I live in San Diego County. Backcountry and urban areas you might find snakes and bees near caches. It's just a fact of life. I think knowingly placing a cache near a bee hive or a snake pit is wrong, but if bees and snakes hang out in the area, like other wildlife, what are you to do?

For instance, one of my caches (Waypoint Name GCCA27 "hardly up the hill") was archived because of complaints made by "a" person to geocaching.com about the bees. Each time I've been to the cache or very close by (Great lookout area), I've never had a problem with bees, but then I am careful and I'm always watching out for bees, snakes, poison oak, etc, when I'm geocaching.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but doesn't common sense dicate that we should come back later to a site if we see snakes, or in this cache's case, bees (But I have seen rattlesnakes in the area too, so should we archive all caches in this area because of snakes?).

I was at this cache last weekend and there were no signs of bees, but then firestorm 2003 was burning about 3 miles away, I must add. I talked with the 20 other people in the general area if they have had problems with bees here (Most of them I know and they all live within 1 mile of this cache) and none of them ever have.

SO if you agree with me that common sense dicate that we should always be on the lookout for hazards while geocaching, how do I go about convincing big brother at geocaching.com to unarchive this cache?

Garmin Vista

Garmin Street Pilot

and a partridge in a pear tree

3.5k · November 2, 2003

Edit - bad info. Sorry.

So Cal Admin?

-------

~ Texas Geocaching ~ Geocaching Icons - The Selector ~

November 2, 2003

I vote to unarchive. If it can be moved to a safer distance, great, but the bees don't WANT to sting you any more than you want them to. If care is taken there shouldn't be any problems.

--

There were plants and birds and rocks and things,

there was sand and hills and rain...

4.8k · November 2, 2003

You could increase the difficulty to a five star; specialized equipment required (a beekeeper suit).

Just joking. Bees are pretty bad business for anybody. I wouldn't want to hear of a cacher sent to the hospital in anaphylactic shock because they got stung.

We had a responsible cacher post a note on a couple of caches near our area because there was a pretty large hive on the trail out towards them.

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

November 2, 2003

There are few places in my state that don't have rattlesnakes, but there are hundreds of caches anyway. And where in the South or Midwest can you find a spot with no poison ivy or mosquitos? Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen... should archive all the caches. Saw a bird flying by the last cache I visited - who knows what disease that feathered fiend carries.

It's not actual beehives, is it? Just random bees flying around?

At the same time, I recommended a virtual cache be archived because the target is a ~very~ fragile archaeological site. It's still active.

-Bob

2.3k · November 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bobthearch:
Saw a bird flying by the last cache I visited - who knows what disease that feathered fiend carries.

Birds can carry and spread the following:

Chlamydia psittaci Infection (psittacosis)

Coxiella burnettii Infection (Q fever)

Cryptococcus Infection (cryptococcosis)

Salmonella Infection (salmonellosis)

--------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

November 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Doc-Dean:

quote:
Originally posted by Bobthearch:
Saw a bird flying by the last cache I visited - who knows what disease that feathered fiend carries.

Birds can carry and spread the following:

Chlamydia psittaci Infection (psittacosis)

Coxiella burnettii Infection (Q fever)

Cryptococcus Infection (cryptococcosis)

Salmonella Infection (salmonellosis)

You forgot newcastles disease, the plague and the west nile virus.

--

There were plants and birds and rocks and things,

there was sand and hills and rain...

38.2k · November 3, 2003

If there is an active hive within a few feet of the cache (which seems to be the case here), I'd say disable it until the hive is gone, or move it far enough away so it won't be an issue.

But to archive a cache because there are bees, or snakes, or whatever in the area is silly.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

November 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc-Dean:

quote:
Originally posted by Bobthearch:
Saw a bird flying by the last cache I visited - who knows what disease that feathered fiend carries.

Birds can carry and spread the following:

Chlamydia psittaci Infection (psittacosis)

Coxiella burnettii Infection (Q fever)

Cryptococcus Infection (cryptococcosis)

Salmonella Infection (salmonellosis)

You forgot newcastles disease, the plague and the west nile virus.

--

_There were plants and birds and rocks and things,

there was sand and hills and rain..._

I guess birds, in a sense, can spread West Nile Virus, but only as a carrier. Birds cannot transmit the virus to humans, but they can carry it.

"I'm 35 Years old, I am divorced, and I live in van down by the river!" - Matt Foley

2.3k · November 3, 2003

There's a cache GC1A3D I've done that has a very unfriendly yellowjacket nest about 40 feet away. I was nowhere near the nest when I got hit, but man... ouch! The nest is no fault of the cache placer, just where nature chose to let 'em build. Post a warning on the page that bees could be in the area, and let them make their own choice.

Joel (joefrog)

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for ye are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"

November 3, 2003

We have a few caches near beehives here in North Texas. For a hack herp like me, it's not a "ruuuunnn!", it's a sideshow! If you get a "flyby" (those who have know exactly what I mean), which is bee talk for "we got your number, you want a piece of us?", just turn around, and approach from somewhere else.

Snakes are even better! We often see them and tell the story and take pics if we can.

We grow up learning all kinds of misconceptions about nature, which we tend to jealously guard, viciously defend, and rarely change. It's understandable. The early messages are often the worst-case coping mechanisms. Examples: Snakes are for killing. That's what you do to every snake. Stinging flying insects seek you out and sting you, so don't ever get near them, and destroy every nest. Spiders are bad. We learn these lessons so well, we never turn 'em off and end up passing the same messages on to our children. Evidence such as suburban pesticide sales figures attest to these widely prevailing attitudes towards nature - something to keep out, something to control.

If the approver felt the same way, not archiving that cache would have made no sense. It was only natural, no?

Snakes, bees, spiders, and the rest of nature are ALL AROUND US, ALL THE TIME. It's less effort, and more fun, to accept and embrace this, than trying to maintain a no-fly zone.

KNOWLEDGE is the key to nature.

IGNORANCE is the key to injury.

Ultimately, nature is the borg. Resistance is futile. We will be assimilated. Geocaching is a natural expression of acceptance of this!

Thanks

astrojr1&G-O-GardenerGal

4.8k · November 3, 2003

An obvious active nest probably should not have a cache by it, but otherwise I don't think something should be archived just because there are a bunch of bees flying around. A warning on the cache page could be good for those who might be allergic or otherwise concerned.

Also, people tend to be more afraid of bees than is necesssary. Generally a bee won't sting unless you physically aggravate it. Leave the thing alone and it will leave you alone. Swat at it and it might sting you. Some species will protect a nest, which is why a cache right by a nest is a bad idea, but otherwise a warning should be sufficient.

pika waving

2.1k · November 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:
You forgot newcastles disease, the plague and the west nile virus.

Like West Nile Virus, birds are only carriers and not transmitters. They can only house the fleas that actually transmit the plague to humans.

I'd be more worried about a bird-borne influenza like the Hong Kong flu or the 1918 flu...

--

Arrr, there be smurfs ta smurf.

November 3, 2003

One of my caches here in San Diego has an active beehive close by but only six out of 65 finders mentioned it.

Have GPS, Will Travel.

22k · November 3, 2003

Well as I have kept bees, let me give my two cents. A bee out doing it's job, collecting pollen, etc. normally is not a problem if left alone. A whole hive or swarm of bees is a different story. A hive of bees can attack if not approached correctly, especially Africanized bees. It depends on the time of day, if you disturb the plant life around the hive, (moving logs, etc), if the hive has been recently attacked by an animal and so on. You really do not know the disposition of the hive at any given time. And if they are swarming, (a mass of bees hanging from a branch) they are feeling very vulnerable.

If you come across a swarm of bees I would recommend leaving the area and coming back another day as they will have probably moved on. As for an established hive any cache within 50 feet should probably be moved. (personally I would stay 100 feet away or more from any hive out in the wilderness). To me this is no different then the distance limitation of caches from railroad tracks (and trains are a little more predictable). By the way, never smash a bee near a hive. A smashed bee puts out an odor that can trigger the attack alarm.

Hornets, Wasps, and Yellow Jackets are not bees and are far far more dangerous, especially those little buggers that live in the ground. They can sting several times and are easily provoked. A cache near a Yellow Jacket or Hornets nest should be moved immediately.

All in all, would say giving a hive a wide berth will allow you to pass by without a problem.

A couple sites:

http://milwaukee.uwex.edu/urbanag/bugnet2/outdoors/outfly/yellowjacket/yellowjacket.html

http://www.scarafaggio.com/stinging.htm

2.3k · November 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cruzin!:
You forgot newcastles disease, the plague and the west nile virus.

The other comments are correct,

Newcastles Disease is a bird disease not a human disease.

Plague is caused by the bacteria Yersina Pestis...People usually get plague from being bitten by a rodent flea that is carrying the plague bacterium or by handling an infected animal.

West Nile Virus is only transmitted by a vector in this case mosquitos, the birds are the reservoir.

--------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

November 3, 2003

Hey people - I know all about the things I mentioned in my post and don't need to be corrected/educated on them. I added them to the list to further demonstrate how ridiculous some of the concerns posted in this thread are.

These are not the droids you're looking for. Move along.

--

There were plants and birds and rocks and things,

there was sand and hills and rain...

2.1k · November 3, 2003

Don't worry Cruzin...these are not the responses you are looking for (waves hand).

But the education is for those who would NOT otherwise know these things. Plus in my case, it brings up *real* bird-borne illness like some of the nastier influenza the world has seen.

--

Arrr, there be smurfs ta smurf.

1.1k · November 3, 2003

Seems to me that this is what the rating system and Cache descriptions are for. A well placed, well documented cache should give the seeker a good indication of what is a good cache for 'them'.

If the cache is placed near a bee hive, peanut grove, pickle park, Charles Manson or a large group of angry rabid muggles.......shouldn't / wouldn't the cache owner make note of it?

So far I have seen both excellent and poor examples of this. Everytime it makes me ask myself if MY cache is good or bad. What could I do to make it better, more responsible and fun. I am more concerned with having a few REALLY good caches than having placed 100 crappy ones.

Unless the Bees and/or Snakes are actually in the cache or the area is so infested as to make it a REAL threat, I would say unarchive and make note in the description.

We are participating in an outdoor sport, one that by its nature carries a certain amount of risk. I don't really care for bushwacking miles through mud filled, mesquito infested snake pits inhabited by infectious zombie ax murderers. But for a really cool FTF prize....

Isn't that part of the fun?

Understand what? My purpose? You know that. To find the Tower is my purpose. I'm sworn.

-Roland, The Gunslinger

2.3k · November 3, 2003

This is the only archive note I have seen on the cache it looks like you archived it not GC.Com.

May 20 by Ranger Roger (42 found)

I have not experienced the bee problem as others have stated. I check this cache last weekend (but it was early am-before 8am). But with the latest post, I will archive it until I can head up there and change the location.

At that time you state that you will move it. Has it been moved? Have you asked your local approver to unarchive it yet? if so what has been his/her response? If you haven't asked yet then I think this post is premature. Next time instead of archiving it, disable it. This way you can enable it without having to get an approver involved.

Social Secretary to the QOFE

The Frog is my friend

November 3, 2003

Management has archived it. I can not "un" archive it and I've sent them a email twice about it and haven't heard a thing.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I tend to read the logs of a cache before doing it so I can beware of any problems. Cachers that are allergic to bees should stay away.

JMHO

Garmin Vista

Garmin Street Pilot

and a partridge in a pear tree

2.6k · November 3, 2003

You might do what I did on the buzzing might be rattlesnakes gc1427. I never saw any bees any of the times I have been there, yet there must be or was a bee hive close to it as many people have been stung although not lately.

I wrote on the cache page about the bees and that several people had been stung.

Possibly the ones that were stung were aways away from the cache, also I don't remember any bees at the cache you mentioned, I'm sure if I had seen them I would have said something

All who look are not lost

2.3k · November 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Ranger Roger:
Management has archived it. I can not "un" archive it and I've sent them a email twice about it and haven't heard a thing.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I tend to read the logs of a cache before doing it so I can beware of any problems. Cachers that are allergic to bees should stay away.

JMHO

Garmin Vista

Garmin Street Pilot

and a partridge in a pear tree

Looking at your logs it shows that you archived it on May 20th. The only way you get the traffic cone icon is if you send an archive note. Perhaps you did not mean to archive it but the logs show that you were the one that did in fact archive your cache. E-mail me if you wish to discuss unarchiving this cache

Social Secretary to the QOFE

The Frog is my friend

November 3, 2003

It looks like we need to watch out for grasshoppers now, too. They're a dangerous bunch, they are...

http://tinyurl.com/thfu

--

There were plants and birds and rocks and things,

there was sand and hills and rain...

November 3, 2003

No bees -- just pesky duck hunters.

I have a 5-star multi-cache that ends with a hike into a somewhat wet preserve area. Found out yesterday that this time of year they close it to the public and let folks hunt there with a special permit. No one is allowed in without a permit and orange clothing. The last finder met some hunters on the way out, and they told him he was "lucky he was not shot!"

Needless to say, I immediately archived that one, even though there were no bees. It will soon be re-activated in a new place, but the bads news is that I can't go and get the original cache, which had some really good stuff in it (a watch, swiss army tools, orienteering compass, LCD lamp, etc.).

Well that's my story for the day.

2.3k · November 3, 2003

The Cache has been unarchived and returned to service.

The best and fastest way to get a cache unarchived is to talk to an approver. In addition GC.com never archived this cache. It was the owner that archived it.

Glad to ba able to assist

Social Secretary to the QOFE

The Frog is my friend

November 4, 2003

The G-O-GardenerGal got stung on her butt while we were looking for a cache a few weeks ago. We logged it but it was no big deal.

How important are bees relative to finding the cache? If "finding the cache" was a 5, 1 was a "disregarded the bees and continued finding the cache" and 10 being "forgot all about finding the cache once I saw the bees", We're about a 2, I guess - we'd take pictures if it was a cool-looking nest or something. How bout you Bubba?

Thanks

astrojr1&G-O-GardenerGal

November 4, 2003

Well I learned something out of all this. Only temp disable. Don't mess with archiving.

If you visit this cache-watch the warning about bees.

Garmin Vista

Garmin Street Pilot

and a partridge in a pear tree

snakes and bees, oh my!

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