Not signing logs is becoming more frequent

[+Deepdiggingmole]

As a CO I have noticed a marked increase in new cachers not signing logsheets / logbooks because they are not aware that it is a requirement. 
I have noted two main reasons for this 
1) New cachers just using the app are not aware as they haven't gone onto the website and gone through the various help pages - yes, there are mentions on the app but not enough
The APP needs to have a pop up window for the first few logs for a new cacher saying something along the lines of 'Did you remember to sign the logsheet' and also 'You can not log this online cache if you haven't signed the logsheet'
2) Many COs are not bothered and don't check and so when new cachers don't sign but log online and nothing happens (i.e log not deleted, or at least the cacher is sent a message to query it) then the finder thinks this is how it is done and continue in that vein
I am often able to determine when a cacher has or hasn't signed when i receive found logs and usually my instinct about those that haven't is right - so as a CO when I do question it (I always message the cacher first) I am often bomarded with "you dont need to", "there wasn't a pen/pencil in the cache so I didn't", "why are you querying this, its all about having fun" and as a CO I am being made to feel I am in the wrong and being lambasted by cachers for spoiling their game. I should not be made to feel that way. 
Sorry - but I am not in the wrong - I am doing what is required of a CO - it isn't a case of everyone plays their own way either (I hear that so often) - you dont see soccer players picking up the ball and running with it because they 'are playing their own game' soccer has rules - as does geocaching and really the one fundamental rule since it all started - sign the logsheet before you log the find online 

I cant see a way round ensuring all COs make sure their caches are being signed - I have a message to that effect on all my cache pages so maybe that is something that is auto-added to all new cache pages prior to publication (except those exempt of course - virtuals etc) 

 

There has been a lot of 'press' in blogs and the like about hiding caches, favourite points and encouraging hiding caches but I do not feel that COs are being backed up by HQ when it comes to this issue of ensuring logs are being signed
If the APP made more of ensuring that caches are being signed before cachers logged the finds online then it would become more the norm for new cachers 

 

I appreciate I am probably in the minority that feels this way - but if more was made of this so that signing no longers becomes a problem (as it used to be 10 years ago)  then for the majority who dont care it still wont make any difference to them 
Please can HQ consider getting this built within the app  

[+stipman]

Would it help if, in your cache description, you required a photo of the signed log? 

 

In response to your post, though, I sign logs "most" of the time (99%).  Recently I couldn't retrieve a cache because it was jammed in its hiding spot. I logged that as a DNF with details about why I logged it that way.  Went back with pliers, retrieved cache, signed log, and replaced.  Other times (especially with nanos) the logs are pretty full and my handwriting is a mess and I can't write that small. In those instances, I will log the cache as a find if I touch the log. I do always retrieve the cache and then replace it even if I don't sign the log.

[+niraD]

2 hours ago, stipman said:

Would it help if, in your cache description, you required a photo of the signed log? 

No. That would be considered an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR), and is not allowed. See the Help Center article Additional logging requirements (ALR).

[+CCFwasG]

Once upon a time (a long time in fact!) this would have been a great post for the "Irks" thread. Sadly that's been closed down. However, I agree with your frustration. Probably less as a CO than as a finder. In the past few years I have seen way more of this than I used to - so many logs online that have no signatures in the actual log. It's a pet peeve and I would agree that a pop up reminder would be terrific, especially in the official app. Perhaps even tied to the number of finds (i.e. under 50 or 100 etc). I admit I am also an advocate of "don't allow anyone to become a CO til they have found X number of hides". Admittedly the "X" is obviously debatable, in addition to the idea itself.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

1 hour ago, niraD said:

No. That would be considered an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR), and is not allowed. See the Help Center article Additional logging requirements (ALR).

Beat me to it :-) 

[+Deepdiggingmole]

3 hours ago, stipman said:

Other times (especially with nanos) the logs are pretty full and my handwriting is a mess and I can't write that small. In those instances, I will log the cache as a find if I touch the log. I do always retrieve the cache and then replace it even if I don't sign the log.

So you haven't signed the log - so if the CO went and checked that log and saw that you hadn't signed what proof have you got of finding that cache ?
Do you also add a NM if the log is full to alert the CO that it needs replacing as am guessing you dont replace the full log yourself, else you would sign the new blank replacement. 

I have on occasion when the log is sodden or too full to find space - made a signature on something (usually my finger) and taken a photo of that along with the logsheet as it is and log the find (along with an accompanying NM log) - however I am mindful that the CO may choose to delete my log - most don't in those sorts of circumstances as I wouldn't - but the difference is that an attempt is made to leave a signature and proof is provided of this 
The thrust of my OP is that so many newcomers to this game are under the impression that signing is not required amd there is no proof that they have found the cache 
The latest one I had where I have not found anything written on the logsheet was simply a 'thumbs up' emoji on the online log !!! 

[+kunarion]

23 minutes ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

The latest one I had where I have not found anything written on the logsheet was simply a 'thumbs up' emoji on the online log !!! 

 

The Official App defaults to Found It.  There are times when I didn't find, typed and submitted my log, and Viola!  ...It's a Found log.  Which next requires a web site visit to correct that.  If it hasn't been found in a long time (and may be missing), the Cache Owner gets my mistaken Found notification, and could be reassured by that.  But it was no find.  I greatly prefer to wait and log using the web site anyway.  The logs tend to also include TBs (which next have their own logs to type), photos, and the web site offers a nicer editing experience in that regard. The App is more like a Social Media post, where one's post is expected to be fired off and forgotten, and then lost among additional posts.

 

Many logs on my caches were about having no pen, not finding the cache, suspecting it's gone... all Found logs.  Because that's the default.  There are threads around here suggesting a little extra work to select which log is intended.  Some cachers don't notice what the icon means.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by kunarion

[+barefootjeff]

41 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Which next requires a web site visit to correct that.

 

Yes, but most new players around here, particularly the ones who've started off with Premium membership before they've even found their first cache, exclusively use the app, have never visited the website and probably don't know (or care) that it even exists.

 

The other thing I've noticed is that many of these new players are signing the log with their real name rather than their caching name, which makes attempting to correlate physical logs with online logs a bit more challenging.

[+Goldenwattle]

I'm a rare CO who checks logs and will delete logs if no signature. However I do give people the chance to describe the log and hide and allow them their log to stay if they do that to my satisfaction. I hope then it will nudge them to sign logs from then on. I have become more lenient with beginners. One not long ago with five 'finds' didn't sign the log. I sent them a message and explained they need to sign the log, but I will accept this log as they are new to the game (unsaid but thought, how stupid and thick must they be to not know that they must sign the log that others have signed. Do we really want idiots in the game.) But I asked them to please sign logs from now on. Then welcomed them to the game. If I find they haven't signed another log I will delete that find, plus the earlier one.

I also check the lost pen types previous logs and if on different days they have continuously "lost" their pen, delete. They are lying and just too lazy to bother to sign.

[+barefootjeff]

43 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I also check the lost pen types previous logs and if on different days they have continuously "lost" their pen, delete. They are lying and just too lazy to bother to sign.

 

There's a long-standing and well-liked cacher here who got something of a reputation for never having a pen when doing more remote caches. He didn't leave the log unsigned, though, but would usually improvise by scavenging around in the surrounding bush for some charcoal. It became something of a standing joke between us, with me putting in the description that I'd provided a pencil just for him and him thanking me in his logs for saving him having to scrounge for charcoal.

[+Goldenwattle]

12 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

charcoal

That's signing the log. I did that once too when I genuinely forgot a pen. I signed with charcoal. However, as charcoal can rub off I didn't want the CO to have to take my word for it I signed, so I also took a photograph of the charcoal signature in the log and added that to my log.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

16 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I'm a rare CO who checks logs and will delete logs if no signature. However I do give people the chance to describe the log and hide and allow them their log to stay if they do that to my satisfaction. I hope then it will nudge them to sign logs from then on. I have become more lenient with beginners. One not long ago with five 'finds' didn't sign the log. I sent them a message and explained they need to sign the log, but I will accept this log as they are new to the game (unsaid but thought, how stupid and thick must they be to not know that they must sign the log that others have signed. Do we really want idiots in the game.) But I asked them to please sign logs from now on. Then welcomed them to the game. If I find they haven't signed another log I will delete that find, plus the earlier one.

I also check the lost pen types previous logs and if on different days they have continuously "lost" their pen, delete. They are lying and just too lazy to bother to sign.

Good to hear - I too message all cachers who obviously haven't signed logs - mainly because if i don't or anyone else for that matter they wont know any different.
All those COs who ignore the 'I forgot my pen' or 'didn't sign' aren't helping new cachers by pointing out their error 

[+Deepdiggingmole]

17 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

The other thing I've noticed is that many of these new players are signing the log with their real name rather than their caching name, which makes attempting to correlate physical logs with online logs a bit more challenging.

Yes, I have seen that too - it says a lot about the lack of background reading into what this is all about 

[+Deepdiggingmole]

18 hours ago, kunarion said:

The Official App defaults to Found It. 

That maybe the case - but if a pop up message appeared to remind them about signing this may make them think about the log type at that point too
If they didn't find it and can't be bothered to change it then the CO deleting their log isnt an issue 

[+CCFwasG]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:18 PM, barefootjeff said:

 

Yes, but most new players around here, particularly the ones who've started off with Premium membership before they've even found their first cache, exclusively use the app, have never visited the website and probably don't know (or care) that it even exists.

 

The other thing I've noticed is that many of these new players are signing the log with their real name rather than their caching name, which makes attempting to correlate physical logs with online logs a bit more challenging.

 

I've been asked - separately by newbies - if they are supposed to keep the cache (!!!) or if they are supposed to move it (!!!). So I can certainly see that can happen too.

[+barefootjeff]

20 minutes ago, CCFwasG said:

 

I've been asked - separately by newbies - if they are supposed to keep the cache (!!!) or if they are supposed to move it (!!!). So I can certainly see that can happen too.

 

Early last year, one of my caches went missing so I archived it, but I found it a few weeks later hidden inside the hollow base of a tree a few hundred metres away from where I'd placed it. There were no online logs at the time or anything in the logbook to shed light on it, but I suspect it was someone who'd just downloaded the app, found the cache and thought they had to rehide it somewhere else. In any case, after getting the reviewer to unarchive it for me, I switched it to PMO and it's been fine ever since.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

Can this be acknowledged by anyone at HQ and consideration for this sort of addition to the APP be taken ?
 

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

Can this be acknowledged by anyone at HQ and consideration for this sort of addition to the APP be taken ?
 

 

The App must first specify that the basic game play is:

 

1 find the container

2 sign its log

3 log it online

 

#3 being optional for those who won't or can't do so.

 

There are of course exceptions, but that's the way I do it, it helps the game run smoothly when done that way, and...

if that's what you're suggesting, as you've seen from just this thread, you're opening a huge can of worms.

[+Hynz]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:32 AM, kunarion said:

1 find the container

2 sign its log

3 log it online

 

#3 being optional for those who won't or can't do so.

I disagree. At least for me as a non-english native "optional" sounds too much as "do as you like".

Online logging is an important part of geocaching which only "in exceptional cases" should be omitted IMHO.

[+thebruce0]

"optional" as in "not required"

 

eta:

physically signing the logbook = required (to log online)

logging the find online = optional (not required)

Edited September 25, 2023 by thebruce0

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

"optional" as is "not required"

 

eta:

physically signing the logbook = required (to log online)

logging the find online = optional (not required)

 

Thanks for the clarification. 

I don't mean optional as in "do what you like", but it's not a major infraction to not make the online log.  But the 3 simple rules (guidelines, optionals, suggestions, whatever they're called) were specified, so that's way I do it.  And in that order. I don't log a Find unless I first found and signed.  There are exceptions.  Others make lots of exceptions.  But the OP is not about people who do in fact sign the log sheet.  It's a reminder to those who don't.

 

Some old-school finders have been signing "summit registers" and Letterboxes for longer than "Geocaching.com" has existed, and not making any official online log after doing so.  And land workers have signed my cache logs and I never expect them to now sign up and properly make online logs.  And people just plain don't do the online log thing... or they do so after a very long delay.  That doesn't bother me, with the exception of TBs that they take. 

 

If The Official App had a popup "Did you remember to sign the logsheet", when the log was not signed due to it being soaking wet or full or I Have No Pen, there's that huge can of worms again.  I know hardly anycacher who upon not signing a log, will not log it as a Find.  Many will log the Find even if the container is missing.  They Poke-found it, done. That popup won't do much except create Forum threads and an ever wordier App that doesn't get read.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by kunarion

[+kunarion]

7 hours ago, Hynz said:

I disagree. At least for me as a non-english native "optional" sounds too much as "do as you like".

Online logging is an important part of geocaching which only "in exceptional cases" should be omitted IMHO.

 

You also missed the OP, which is all about fixing the problem of logs not being signed.

In my example, the log was in fact signed.

 

The importance of online logging is a different subject.

[+cerberus1]

On 9/19/2023 at 3:13 PM, stipman said:

In response to your post, though, I sign logs "most" of the time (99%).  Recently I couldn't retrieve a cache because it was jammed in its hiding spot. I logged that as a DNF with details about why I logged it that way.  Went back with pliers, retrieved cache, signed log, and replaced.  Other times (especially with nanos) the logs are pretty full and my handwriting is a mess and I can't write that small. In those instances, I will log the cache as a find if I touch the log. I do always retrieve the cache and then replace it even if I don't sign the log.

If I find a cache I can't access because it's stuck or frozen in place, I leave a NM and move on. It's just a cache... 

And I'd know that you were there how?     This is a fun, very basic hobby... Find the cache and sign the log to show you were there.

The rare time I head somewhere that has a nano anymore, I can write C1 in it's tiny log, even with my arthritic paws, and mention it in my log...   

[+cerberus1]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:39 PM, CCFwasG said:

I've been asked - separately by newbies - if they are supposed to keep the cache (!!!) or if they are supposed to move it (!!!).

So I can certainly see that can happen too.

 

When the Intro app came out, we'd find our ammo cans miles away from where they were placed.

 - Cachers saw them (usually out in the open) walking to another cache and notified us,

The few we could contact said, "I thought that's how this game is played..."   Fortunately, that ended quickly...

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

When the Intro app came out, we'd find our ammo cans miles away from where they were placed.

 - Cachers saw them (usually out in the open) walking to another cache and notified us,

The few we could contact said, "I thought that's how this game is played..."   Fortunately, that ended quickly...

 

The challenge is covering all the basics in an App that is designed to be just click-n-go... without overwhelming the user with information that they already know.

 

There are a bunch of perfectly good basic Geocaching videos accessible from the App.  If they're failing to sign logs, and especially if they're moving cache boxes around, people must be making no effort at all to learn out how to Geocache.  Is there evidence that pop-up text solves that problem?  I wonder.

[+barefootjeff]

7 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Is there evidence that pop-up text solves that problem?  I wonder.

 

I recently purchased another caching app (Geooh GO) because I needed something with Wherigo support. When I started it for the first time, it produced a whole lot of pop-up text trying to teach me how to use the app, but I just dismissed them all without reading them as I really needed to get in and start the Wherigo. In hindsight that surprised me a bit as, with my engineering background, I've been pretty much ingrained to always read the manual before starting on anything new. So no, in general I suspect any pop-ups about signing the log would most likely just get dismissed without being read, especially with phone apps where the expectation is for instant gratification without having to do any prior reading.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:34 AM, kunarion said:

Is there evidence that pop-up text solves that problem?  I wonder.

Difficult to answer as there has only been the one app with this game that since its existence appears to have created more of this not signing phenonemon - the fact that they haven't introduced any means of ensuring that signing is required means surely it has got to be given a try. 
My intitial thought behind the idea was that it would make them think more that that is what is required and isn't an optional part of the game - I hear the argument that barefootjeff has put forward that it wont work so maybe instead of a 'reminder' it could be a tickbox - 'did you sign the logsheet yes/no' If they tick 'no' then the app would not allow the logging process to continue - and yes I hear the cries of 'oh, they'll just tick the yes box whatever as they know they can't log otherwise' but a little extra comment - 'The CO can delete your log if you haven't signed' may help 

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:21 PM, cerberus1 said:

I've been asked - separately by newbies - if they are supposed to keep the cache (!!!) or if they are supposed to move it (!!!).

I recently came across an old cache that I used to own but adopted out when I moved away - I noted that it had been archived - due to the cache appeared to have gone missing and the current CO didn't get out to maintain it, however several months later a new cache was put in the location (not the same place but close) - My interest was piqued when I read some logs saying that the logsheet on this newish cache was full of signatures 

I took a trip out and found the cache and it turned out to be the container and logsheet from the one that got archived 
I suspect that what has occurred here is - find the cache, take it away and use it to create new cache with new cache page etc. I tried to find out if that is what has occurred but I suspect my enquiries has caused a lot of thinking and the container was replaced and all knowledge denied
However I suspect that this type of thing has happened a lot all over - some getting relocated but several caches disappearing but interest lost and a new cache never created 

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:25 AM, Hynz said:

Online logging is an important part of geocaching which only "in exceptional cases" should be omitted IMHO.

Not disagreeing with the comment - however it is 'optional' - there is no requirement to log your find online as there is to physically sign the logsheet
I am aware of several people who have found many caches (hundreds and some thousands) but have not logged a single find online - they have kept their own record - they may have even amended the icon online to identify the ones they have found (can be done) but no smilies or even DNFs 

However yes, for the majority of cachers logging the finds is important - for those that do challenge caches, imperative - For COs also useful for keeping up to date with activity 

I have heard from many newcomers that they thought logging online was an alternative to physically signing !!!!

 

However as has already been stated the OP was about the importance of getting the 'sign the logsheet' message across. 
 

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 9/25/2023 at 4:25 PM, kunarion said:

That popup won't do much except create Forum threads

Yea, maybe - but I don't think it should be dismissed as an idea - if the rest of us decide that it isn't worth bothering about as an issue then it will esculate and not signing will become a much bigger issue and will create much more of a headache for COs who do make something of it. 
I had one cacher who wrote in his log that he didn't sign - when I queried it with him his response was very negative and basically said 'why am I making an issue out of it, don't I want anyone to find my caches' - he didn't want to acknowledge that he had gone against that rule and so his log got deleted - He has since come back to other trails I have and signed them all !!

[+cerberus1]

21 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

I recently came across an old cache that I used to own but adopted out when I moved away...

 

I did not write the post you captured for this...

[+CCFwasG]

On 9/28/2023 at 3:37 PM, cerberus1 said:

 

I did not write the post you captured for this...

Oddly enough I did, but I think we understood they were just answering that part of the text.

[+Lee_Bo]

Many of the caches I come across specify in the description that if you do not physically sign the log, but log it as found, the CO will delete your "found" entry.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:37 PM, cerberus1 said:

 

I did not write the post you captured for this...

Yea - sorry that is what happens sometimes when you highlight some text - it doesn't always attribute to the correct author 

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:01 PM, Lee_Bo said:

Many of the caches I come across specify in the description that if you do not physically sign the log, but log it as found, the CO will delete your "found" entry.

That is happening more and more nowadays - COs never used to put that as it was a known rule and rarely an issue - however more and more with COs having to deal with people not signing they are adding that to their cache description - if a cacher finds their log deleted and they look at the cache page they can see that they can't argue the matter 

[+thebruce0]

12 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

Yea - sorry that is what happens sometimes when you highlight some text - it doesn't always attribute to the correct author 

Yeah it happens when you guote a sub-quote, attributing the top author, not the sub-author. Annoying

[+Deepdiggingmole]

Can anyone from HQ acknowledge this post and comment ?

[+TOW Vehicle]

I explicitly explain on my muli-cache, that without a signed log, the find will be removed without explanation 

Edited October 28, 2023 by TOW Vehicle

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 10/28/2023 at 4:33 PM, TOW Vehicle said:

I explicitly explain on my muli-cache, that without a signed log, the find will be removed without explanation 

I have a similar statement on all of my caches - however, and this is where part of the problem lies - many cachers, in particular new ones who only use the app, do not read all of the description (they most likely wont have read the guidelines either)  - they see a location, possibly read the hint and that is all - I have this statement in many of my hints on several of my caches but the hint section is limited in size and so if you are giving a more detailed hint (as some require) then adding more about log signing is not possible 
So though it is frustrating that it is on the cache page - it is becoming more common place to either find that they haven't signed (checking the cache logsheets) or even reading it in their logs that they haven't