Should the difficulty rating account for a hint

[Pigeon9384]

Hello everyone, I’ve been planning to release a challenging geocache, and I have it all planned out except I have a few questions. Should high difficulty (4/5 star) geocaches include hints? If they do, should the difficulty take the hint into account? Thanks.

 

EDIT: that wasn’t worded very well. Basically, does the helpfulness of the hint change the difficulty rating? Or is the D rating solely based on how challenging it is to locate/open the cache (regardless of the hint)?

Edited July 25, 2023 by Pigeon9384
I clarified my question

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, Pigeon9384 said:

Basically, does the helpfulness of the hint change the difficulty rating? Or is the D rating solely based on how challenging it is to locate/open the cache (regardless of the hint)?

One of the first caches I found had a high difficulty rating and three hints. In the text of the description, the CO said that each hint we used would take one star off the difficulty rating. (This was back before apps would decrypt hints automatically. Since we had to decrypt the hint letter by letter, we could easily control how much of the hint we wanted to use.) But the difficulty rating was not reduced because there were hints.

 

I think that's still the way to do it, even today when apps decrypt hints automatically.

[+barefootjeff]

I'm sure I saw something on the website once that said to include the hint when working out the D rating, but I can't find it now. Since most cachers look at the hint fairly early in their search, if it isn't something immediately obvious, I always assume that they will before giving up in disgust. For example, one of my more recent caches is on this rock pinnacle:

 

 

Without the hint, there would be a lot of possible places it could be hidden, even within the limits of its terrain 3.5 rating (and most of that comes from the hike up the mountain), especially since the container is well camouflaged due to lots of muggle visitations, but the hint is quite specific and narrows it down to a small area so I gave it a D rating of 2. So far no-one has complained.

[+MNTA]

What is the experience you are going for? No hints probably more frustration for the folks that need to get that smiley, but that drives some folks.

 

Is it in a remote area that if folks can not find they probably will never try again? More hint are better in my opinion.

 

I've failed to find plenty of difficult (and easy) caches even with hints. Some several times. I remember visiting the same telephone pole 5 times over the course of two years.

 

Personally I dislike the hints that only make sense once you've found it. The more difficult to find the more dnfs and requests for help you'll get. You also may need more maintenance checks as well. So ask yourself is this ok?

 

Go with your gut.

[+Goldenwattle]

6 minutes ago, MNTA said:

Personally I dislike the hints that only make sense once you've found it.

Agreed. Such as Hint: red. Real example.

You only get the hint on the hard to find cache when you remove the cover and see the red cache. Doh!!!!. Annoying. Want people to talk about your cache with annoyance, and that reflects badly on the CO and their intelligence, or lack of, thinking that was a hint? Give a non-hint like that!

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, MNTA said:

Is it in a remote area that if folks can not find they probably will never try again? More hint are better in my opinion.

 

Yep, the more remote my hides are, the more explicit the hint is. I want searchers to have fun and enjoy the location I've brought them to, not make them annoyed and angry.

[+lee737]

I figure that we hide stuff well to stop muggles finding it, or to show off a cool spot.... not to stop cachers finding them....

[+arisoft]

I understand that the hint is encrypted just because it is not part of the actual listing. It is something extra for those who needs some help. But...

 

- I have seen mystery caches where the hint is required part of solving the mystery.

- I have seen traditional caches so far from the GZ that the hint is required to find the right location.

 

To the OP I would say that do not take the hint into account.

[+baer2006]

12 minutes ago, arisoft said:

- I have seen mystery caches where the hint is required part of solving the mystery.

- I have seen traditional caches so far from the GZ that the hint is required to find the right location.

This, plus additionally:

- I have seen multi-caches, where the instructions how to calculate the final from what you find at the first stage were in the hint.

 

The net result of all this is that I consider the hint a de facto part of the listing, and read it immediately when I have the first look at the listing. And all my caching buddies also do it just like that. Therefore, I always take the hint into account when rating my own caches.

[+arisoft]

5 hours ago, baer2006 said:

The net result of all this is that I consider the hint a de facto part of the listing, and read it immediately when I have the first look at the listing.

 

I know , that's why I put the most important information in the hint instead of the description because most players do not read the description at all.

 

Sometimes the hint is a riddle. Your suggestion is that in this case the difficult rating should be based on the difficulty of the hint?

[Pigeon9384]

Just now, MNTA said:

What is the experience you are going for? No hints probably more frustration for the folks that need to get that smiley, but that drives some folks.

 

I’m looking to publish a geocache that takes patience and brainpower. I would also like to include a helpful hint but I’m worried that’s going to chip a star or two off the D rating.

 

(I don’t know why there’s another quote here but I can’t get rid of it. . .)

Just now, MNTA said:

Edited July 26, 2023 by Pigeon9384

[Pigeon9384]

Just now, niraD said:

One of the first caches I found had a high difficulty rating and three hints. In the text of the description, the CO said that each hint we used would take one star off the difficulty rating. (This was back before apps would decrypt hints automatically. Since we had to decrypt the hint letter by letter, we could easily control how much of the hint we wanted to use.) But the difficulty rating was not reduced because there were hints.

 

I think that's still the way to do it, even today when apps decrypt hints automatically.

Alright, I think I’ll do that same thing and include three hints — sounds like a good idea and like geocachers would like that.

[Pigeon9384]

Just now, lee737 said:

I figure that we hide stuff well to stop muggles finding it, or to show off a cool spot.... not to stop cachers finding them....

Maybe, but I bet it’s certainly rewarding to finally sign that log book. I’d think some people like a real good challenge.

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, Pigeon9384 said:

Maybe, but I bet it’s certainly rewarding to finally sign that log book. I’d think some people like a real good challenge.

Many of my favorite caches have been well-camouflaged hidden-in-plain-sight caches with high difficulty ratings.

[+thebruce0]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:28 PM, Goldenwattle said:

Agreed. Such as Hint: red. Real example.

You only get the hint on the hard to find cache when you remove the cover and see the red cache. Doh!!!!. Annoying. Want people to talk about your cache with annoyance, and that reflects badly on the CO and their intelligence, or lack of, thinking that was a hint? Give a non-hint like that!

 

Yes, and such hints actually tend to make the hunt worse because it's misleading - you'd be looking for something 'red', and if you don't find the cache you might think it's missing. That could lead to misleading DNFs or DNFs that aren't what they imply because the CO is chuckling and saying 'nope, it is there, I don't need be worried it might be missing' (but what if it actually is?).  It just adds to so much more confusion when the hint has a directly misleading effect.

 

13 hours ago, Pigeon9384 said:

I think I’ll do that same thing and include three hints — sounds like a good idea and like geocachers would like that.

 

You can add additional encryption to the hints so people don't 'accidentally' see the solution. Some people don't like that.

That's why they allow the CO to block off text that should not be auto-decrypted. So if someone really wants the hint but not by accident, at least they need to do a bit more work; or if you offer multiple hints, the decrypt can show one while leaving the rest encrypted for people to choose to see manually, one at a time.

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

You can add additional encryption to the hints so people don't 'accidentally' see the solution. Some people don't like that.

That's why they allow the CO to block off text that should not be auto-decrypted. So if someone really wants the hint but not by accident, at least they need to do a bit more work; or if you offer multiple hints, the decrypt can show one while leaving the rest encrypted for people to choose to see manually, one at a time.

The additional encryption doesn't need to be ROT13. I've seen three-tier hints where the first hint was just ROT13 and automatically decrypted, the second hint was ROT13 and backwards (automatically decrypted, but you need to think a bit about what it says), and the third hint was ROT13 and in brackets (so it didn't decrypt automatically).

[+TeamRabbitRun]

Back before auto-decryption in the app, we had to manually decrypt hints. For you relative newbies, that's why the ROT-13 chart appears on every cache page; if you printed the page to take with you, you decrypted in the field when you got frustrated. For me, it was kinda like a pre-message center 'phone the CO'.

 

Back then, I played around with creating a hint that, when encrypted, also said something in English.

 

The trick was that someone would look at the cache page and see what looks like a valid hint, and not bother to manually do the decryption; just try to apply the apparent (false) hint.

 

Never made it work. I thought about upping the difficulty by one notch if I had, but probably wouldn't have.
 

[+thebruce0]

3 hours ago, niraD said:

The additional encryption doesn't need to be ROT13.

Yep I was just citing an example using the existing system, or else using whatever additional encryption you want to add for multiple hint steps.

If you're concerned about the hint making the cache too easy, you could, in a sense, still offset the D by making the most helpful hint the hardest to decode on par with the listing D

[+MNTA]

On 7/27/2023 at 8:08 AM, niraD said:

The additional encryption doesn't need to be ROT13. I've seen three-tier hints where the first hint was just ROT13 and automatically decrypted, the second hint was ROT13 and backwards (automatically decrypted, but you need to think a bit about what it says), and the third hint was ROT13 and in brackets (so it didn't decrypt automatically).

Please don't

 

[+niraD]

35 minutes ago, MNTA said:

On 7/27/2023 at 11:08 AM, niraD said:

The additional encryption doesn't need to be ROT13. I've seen three-tier hints where the first hint was just ROT13 and automatically decrypted, the second hint was ROT13 and backwards (automatically decrypted, but you need to think a bit about what it says), and the third hint was ROT13 and in brackets (so it didn't decrypt automatically).

Please don't

Why not?

[+cerberus1]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:08 PM, Pigeon9384 said:

Hello everyone, I’ve been planning to release a challenging geocache, and I have it all planned out except I have a few questions. Should high difficulty (4/5 star) geocaches include hints? If they do, should the difficulty take the hint into account? Thanks.

EDIT: that wasn’t worded very well. Basically, does the helpfulness of the hint change the difficulty rating? Or is the D rating solely based on how challenging it is to locate/open the cache (regardless of the hint)?

 

We always thought the "hint" was something you went to for a little added help if you couldn't find the cache.

We believed hints conveniently replaced the many PAFs some COs would get otherwise...    

We felt the hint was never taken into account in the cache's D/T because it was meant as the last option.  Can't find it?  Look at the hint...

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

We felt the hint was never taken into account in the cache's D/T because it was meant as the last option.  Can't find it?  Look at the hint...

 

In the official app, the hint is given greater prominence than the description and, if you scroll down to the bottom and tap on Info, it tells you to "Read the details (presumably they mean the description) if you get stuck."

 

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

In the official app, the hint is given greater prominence than the description and, if you scroll down to the bottom and tap on Info, it tells you to "Read the details (presumably they mean the description) if you get stuck."