Will we ever get offline capabilities?

[+JohnCNA]

I find it really disappointing that we still cannot do Adventure Labs totally offline, with the same ease in which we do with geocaches. 

[+JL_HSTRE]

There are some ALs that are hard to due because of limited cell service, and places where cell service is impossible.

[+baer2006]

8 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

There are some ALs that are hard to due because of limited cell service, and places where cell service is impossible.

Yes. And CO's should be smart enough not to place an AL in such an area. I mean, one may wish for an offline playing option, but currently, there is none, and this should really be known well enough by now.

 

Recently, a CO in my area published a small trail of traditionals, together with a 5-stage AL along the same trail. The copy-and-paste listings of the trads all said, that you should preload spoiler pictures, because mobile signal is often bad or non-existing. Well, the AL experience was "as expected" . I could only log them because a) I downloaded locations and questions before with "lab2gpx" and therefore could write down the answers on the trail, and b) afterwards, when I had better signal, I could spoof my location to actually enter the answers in the AL. This is a kind of "de facto" offline play, but not technically possible for everyone, and definitely not a nice user experience .

[+Wacka]

If t is a non sequential AL  you should be able to attempt to answer and get the no signal reply. the app will remember you tried  and when  you are in cell range, hit should allow  you to answer it. There is one in a state park near me and the owner told people to do that because there was no cell service  at on of the AL stages.  I did one this week in a town where we have a monthly event. It was sequential  and on the stage  I did just before the event, I couldn't think of the third word I had to enter.  aWent to the event that was about a half mile away and thought of the word I needed  there. Entered it there  and it worked. That was way outside the 100 foot or so geofence that each stage had.  As long as you are inside the geofence when you attempt to answer, I think the app remembers.

[+JL_HSTRE]

4 hours ago, baer2006 said:

afterwards, when I had better signal, I could spoof my location to actually enter the answers in the AL

 

AL offline capability would be preloading the questions and locations into the app. Even if you don't have cell signal you should still have GPS signal. This would avoid any need to GPS spoof to be able to give the answers. 

 

The challenge might be having the app capable of downloading the offline data without being available to then strip out with third party software. Hack the correct answer, spoof the GPS, Find every AL on earth from your couch.

 

While GPS spoofing exists, I assume the current system prevents data interception because the answer checking occurs entirely on Groundspeak's end. Your phone sends a data value which is returned as being either right or wrong, but never sees what is the correct data value. Offline data would inevitably be cracked and made accessible.

 

So while making ALs playable without live data would work fine if geocachers were all honest, the reality is that it would probably be disastrous.

[+barefootjeff]

7 hours ago, baer2006 said:

Yes. And CO's should be smart enough not to place an AL in such an area. I mean, one may wish for an offline playing option, but currently, there is none, and this should really be known well enough by now.

 

Here we have three major carriers (Telstra, Optus and Vodaphone) all with different coverage footprints, and even within providers there are different coverage levels depending on your plan and frequency bands. Sure, if you only put your ALs in cities and large regional centres it shouldn't be a problem, but once you get into smaller towns and bushland areas it becomes a bit of a lottery. The owner might have strong coverage at all the locations but someone on a different carrier or plan might have nothing.

[+baer2006]

18 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

The challenge might be having the app capable of downloading the offline data without being available to then strip out with third party software. Hack the correct answer, spoof the GPS, Find every AL on earth from your couch.

 

While GPS spoofing exists, I assume the current system prevents data interception because the answer checking occurs entirely on Groundspeak's end. Your phone sends a data value which is returned as being either right or wrong, but never sees what is the correct data value.

The app could download and save for offline use the exact data which it now downloads anyway, when you play with a data connection. The actual answer is not transmitted at all, only a hash code of the answer. Checking works like this: The app calculates the hash of your answer, and if it doesn't match the correct hash, it reports "False" to you immediately, without any server interaction. But if the hash matches, it sends the answer to the server, which verifies it again, and if successful, registers your "find" in the system.

 

18 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Offline data would inevitably be cracked and made accessible.

No, because all you get is the hash code of the answer. But as hashes go, even if you know the hash algorithm, it's impossible to infer the answer from the hash except by brute force! I.e., you basically have to hash every possible answer - if only digits and plain letters are considered, that's 36^n possibilities for an answer of length n.

 

Anyway, an "offline-aware" AL app could work like this:

• Download an AL's data whenever you open it (as it does now)
• The user can save optionally it for offline use
• If you open a saved AL, the app checks if it can download the latest version. If yes, it does so (and saves the update), otherwise the user is notified and plays with the existing offline data.
• Answers are checked against the hash, and if correct, they are saved for later uploading. But any in-play consequences, like showing the journal or activating the next stage in a sequential AL, are executed anyway.
• The AL app has a background task, which regularly checks mobile data access, and if available, uploads any pending correct answers to the server. An option to do this only with WiFi would be nice, to help users with more restrictive data plans.
• Nice to have: Some UI elements, which inform the user about the upload state of his correct answers. Because in stats like find counts of "souvenir challenges", only answers which have been uploaded to the server will count.

While this is not entirely trivial, it's definitely not programming terra incognita either . I have co-developed client/server architectures, which need to cope with temporary loss of backend connection. Of course the system is not fool proof, e.g. when the the ALO updates something while you are offline. But this would probably quite rare.

[+JohnCNA]

Our problem was that the app would open but not show any AL's the entire time we were in a remote State Park. And then complain "no signal". 

 

I had both our geocaching apps (Locus {me} and Cachly {spouse}) loaded with the stages from lab2gpx so we could visit the locations and write down the answers. But without having the knowledge/ability to fake GPS location later, we were done.

 

The API clearly supports pre-downloading locations and questions, thanks to lab2gpx. So even the third party apps could deal with this if they would enable that in the API. 

[+TommyGator]

Something I've learned via frustrating experience is that if you are going to an area with questionable data reception, it is best to load the AdLab while you still have a decent signal.  It is frustrating when you wish to start an AdLab and then find you have no signal with which to get the App to load it---and then you can't even start.  Even worse, if there are two (or more) overlapping AdLabs and you exit one to grab a stage from another, you might find that not only will the second AdLab not load, but you might not be able to reload the the original in order to resume.

 

Now, you might think that this would somewhat solve the problem.  Well, it kinda does---until the app "hangs" and you have to do a reload (seems to happen quite a bit) and you find that you don't have enough signal for that to happen---midway through your "adventure!"

 

Remind yourself that you are having an adventure----and wandering around trying to get a signal is de facto part of that adventure.

[+Team OPJim]

First we had Wherigo, but then Groundspeak lost interest it in and wouldn't support the software so it became too difficult to manage.  Adventures are obviously their intended replacement, but without adequate support: ie making it offline friendly just like the other types of geocaches, it will also become a difficult and frustrating aspect of geocaching that will cause people to say "why bother."  I did one in Lincoln, NM which is the Billy the Kid state park.  It was very interesting, but I literally had to drive 10 miles down the highway, open the app and all the questions, then go back to find the answers, then drive back down the road to input the answers.  I messaged the CO about this and this is his response:

     "I debated placing that adventure, but there is SO much history in Lincoln, I had to try it. That's why I had the geofence opened up pretty much to the intersection of 380 and 70 in order for people to get stops opened before entering Lincoln.  I hope you enjoyed the visit and stops despite the tech challenges in Lincoln. The whole point is to see somewhere new and interesting. "

 

Bottom line Groundspeak, if extreme workarounds are required, then what are you using our Premium membership fees for?

[+thebruce0]

On 6/25/2023 at 6:29 PM, baer2006 said:

Anyway, an "offline-aware" AL app could work like this:

• Download an AL's data whenever you open it (as it does now)
• The user can save optionally it for offline use
• If you open a saved AL, the app checks if it can download the latest version. If yes, it does so (and saves the update), otherwise the user is notified and plays with the existing offline data.
• Answers are checked against the hash, and if correct, they are saved for later uploading. But any in-play consequences, like showing the journal or activating the next stage in a sequential AL, are executed anyway.
• The AL app has a background task, which regularly checks mobile data access, and if available, uploads any pending correct answers to the server. An option to do this only with WiFi would be nice, to help users with more restrictive data plans.
• Nice to have: Some UI elements, which inform the user about the upload state of his correct answers. Because in stats like find counts of "souvenir challenges", only answers which have been uploaded to the server will count.

 

To my knowledge, this is already how the app works - a pre-downloaded AL includes a hash of the available-to-answer questions (can't remember if that's also every sequential stage), and is able to tell you whether your answer is wrong. If it is correct, it then attempts to verify with the server, which is the point at which 'offline' ends; but this check is remembered so when you're back in mobile data range you can enter the code and it'll ping the success.

So the difference would be as you suggest (highlighted), a change that allows the app to use the lighter 'offline validity' check to move on to the next stage for sequential ALs.

I don't think that's so much a technical hurdle as a gameplay rule to minimize 'cheating'.

 

What I think this boils down to more importantly, is that an AL creator should just consider that being a mobile-use location-based game, a place with zero mobile reception is not the place for an AL.  Consider a multi with virtual waypoints that resolve a solution or puzzle to reveal final coordinates for a geocache - which doesn't even have to be placed nearby in the mobile dead zone. The final could be placed 3 cities over on your front porch if you want. No distance limits for multis.

[+baer2006]

8 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

To my knowledge, this is already how the app works - a pre-downloaded AL includes a hash of the available-to-answer questions (can't remember if that's also every sequential stage), and is able to tell you whether your answer is wrong. If it is correct, it then attempts to verify with the server, which is the point at which 'offline' ends; but this check is remembered so when you're back in mobile data range you can enter the code and it'll ping the success.

This is not totally wrong ... except that there is no true "pre-downloading". The only thing you can do is open one AL, and then try to keep the AL app open. And the latter can be tricky - I noticed that whenever you start using other apps (e.g. a geocaching app, web browser, or Google Maps), the AL app goes to sleep and when you open it again, the "pre-loaded" AL is gone.

 

8 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

So the difference would be as you suggest (highlighted), a change that allows the app to use the lighter 'offline validity' check to move on to the next stage for sequential ALs.

I don't think that's so much a technical hurdle as a gameplay rule to minimize 'cheating'.

That would be one main difference, but not the only one. The part about real "pre-downloading" would need to be implemented as well. E.g. for the typical use case, when you are in a foreign country (where you have no mobile data), want to do more than one AL in a city, and want to download all of there for offline use while connected to the hotel WiFi.

 

8 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

What I think this boils down to more importantly, is that an AL creator should just consider that being a mobile-use location-based game, a place with zero mobile reception is not the place for an AL.

Fully agree on that! Unfortunately, many AL creators don't seem to care.

[+thebruce0]

Just now, baer2006 said:

This is not totally wrong ... except that there is no true "pre-downloading".

Yes, I didn't define 'pre-downloaded' - it's not a function that one can "download" an AL, it's as you describe, effectively caching the AL within the app.

 

 

[+MartyBartfast]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:29 PM, baer2006 said:

Anyway, an "offline-aware" AL app could work like this:

• Download an AL's data whenever you open it (as it does now)
• The user can save optionally it for offline use
• If you open a saved AL, the app checks if it can download the latest version. If yes, it does so (and saves the update), otherwise the user is notified and plays with the existing offline data.
• Answers are checked against the hash, and if correct, they are saved for later uploading. But any in-play consequences, like showing the journal or activating the next stage in a sequential AL, are executed anyway.
• The AL app has a background task, which regularly checks mobile data access, and if available, uploads any pending correct answers to the server. An option to do this only with WiFi would be nice, to help users with more restrictive data plans.
• Nice to have: Some UI elements, which inform the user about the upload state of his correct answers. Because in stats like find counts of "souvenir challenges", only answers which have been uploaded to the server will count.

Something like this would be a big improvement over the current situation.

I also think GS should open up the API to 3rd parties to develop apps, as they have done  with traditional caching, such a move would open up the game to more innovation and creative ideas such as these.

[+Team OPJim]

What is the Lackey response to this thread?

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:51 AM, thebruce0 said:

What I think this boils down to more importantly, is that an AL creator should just consider that being a mobile-use location-based game, a place with zero mobile reception is not the place for an AL. 

 

So much this.

 

Applies to regular caches too, with regard to GPS reception.

[+lee737]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:51 PM, thebruce0 said:

What I think this boils down to more importantly, is that an AL creator should just consider that being a mobile-use location-based game, a place with zero mobile reception is not the place for an AL.

This is how we end up with hundreds of dull, all very similar ALs everywhere....

[+geodarts]

On 12/14/2023 at 7:57 PM, lee737 said:

This is how we end up with hundreds of dull, all very similar ALs everywhere....

 

The strength of ALs should  be to extend the game into places where traditional caching is not appropriate or forbidden.  The weakness is that they easily become virtual repetitive trails . . . The very similar and dull default. I’ve stopped doing as many as I used to.  

 

I wanted to place an AL in a parkland to show people some favorite areas —  some stages require moderate walks, some used to have physical caches but they were removed.  I don’t think they all need to be done on a single trip. In any event cell service is hit or miss.  There are some areas where it can be found, and others where it is unlikely.  My advice was to focus on specific stages, open up the AL where there is reception, go to where the answer page comes up, but don’t enter the details until later.  It can be a juggling act at best especially if the app closes.
 

I’m fine with that up to a point, but the game would have so much more room for creativity if it had a true offline mode.
 

ALs have the potential to be true adventures.  They don’t yet have the capability.  

 

 

[+Capanna Family]

Let's face it, I'm doing Adventure Labs in places I'm unfamiliar with, so I'm using my phone's GPS to get me there.  I don't have a second phone to keep the AL app open while I drive to the different locations.  Also, it's a pain when you drive 5 or more miles out of coverage, to accidentally close the apps, just before you get to the location (it's happened too many times).  I'm not driving back to get a signal, just so I can attempt it again.  [Honesty, I've restored to spoof my GPS to places I've visited, but the app was having troubles or was accidentally closed before the answer became available.]  It's not a perfect solution, it's much more work, and you have no idea what the question is, so even if you take lots of pictures you might still not have the answer.

 

[DON'T PUT ADVENTURE LABS OUT WHERE THIS IS NO SERVICE YET, OR UNTIL WE CAN DO THEM OFFLINE!  JUST DON'T DO IT!  IT'S NOT APPRECIATED AND IT'S DOWN RIGHT ANNOYING!]

[+Max and 99]

Have you not seen the warning about spoofing?

[+fizzymagic]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:52 PM, Max and 99 said:

Have you not seen the warning about spoofing?

 

What warning would that be?  Whatever it is, it's certainly not prominent.

[+Max and 99]

___

[+fizzymagic]

Ah, good.   I absolutely refuse to spoof my location for anything, so I had never seen that second thing.  The first one seems a little too subtle.  Either way, I am aware of multiple instances of people spoofing location to do ALs.  I heard there was an AL (I don't know if it still exists or not) at the location of the Titanic in the North Atlantic that was claimed by some Germans within a day of being published.

 

How pathetic is that?

 

Anyway, offline mode would open up a whole Pandora's box of trouble.  Sort of like an automated proximity thing for regular geocaches would.  I anticipate that the request that started this thread will recur on a regular basis.