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Allow basic members to view all non-premium caches using the app


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This applies to all versions of the Geocaching app.

 

The app should allow geocachers to find any cache that they can access using the website. 

 

Currently the app only allows basic members to view events and traditional geocaches at D2 / T2 and below, while those same members can access any non-premium geocache via the website.

 

There are three levels of access in the game (from least to most restrictive):

1) Premium members can access all geocaches via app and website

2) Basic members can access all non-premium caches via the website

3) Basic members can access a subset of non-premium caches via the app

 

I argue that 2 and 3 should be combined to:

2/3) Basic members can access all non-premium geocaches via app and website

 

At a minimum, add an in-app purchase option for basic members to unlock all non-premium geocaches via the app without having to become premium members.

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Does your suggestion eliminate the current feature where anyone can test if An "App" works with their phone at all (or if they even like finding a Geocache, albeit an easy one) without having to "sign up and verify"?  Because no other Geocaching App offers this, and if you "combine 2 and 3", all App users must first verify their account, which they must do to log into the web site.

 

Because the way it works now is kind of refreshing, compared to every other site ever, where I must first "create a verified account" to even try it out, and although I might never have gotten any benefit at all from it, I get Spam from them forevermore.  It makes me leery of "signing up for free stuff", and today I might have second thoughts about trying this new improved App with its additional red tape.

 

If you mean that everyone gets free access to all caches for merely installing an App for free, I need to archive a bunch of my caches before that happens.

 

But the suggestion is almost exactly like the very first Official App.  The one that was deleted (along with an "Intro App" with reduced features).  And replaced with the system we have now.

 

Edited by kunarion
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23 minutes ago, kunarion said:

If you mean that everyone gets free access to all caches for merely installing an App for free, I need to archive a bunch of my caches before that happens.

 

Everyone gets access to all non-premium caches right now for free for merely signing up on the website.  Better start archiving your caches.

 

At one time I was a new geocacher who didn't know what I was doing.  I used the website instead of an app, because at the time there wasn't an app, and I found an inexpensive GPS receiver on a clearance rack, but I didn't go and destroy everyone's geocaches.  I made mistakes and wrote stupid logs in the beginning but eventually I learned.

 

App users aren't bad people bent on destroying a game we all love, they're trying out and then hopefully continuing in a game that you and I enjoy.  Apps give easy access to people who already have smartphones, and help introduce people to this game, people who normally wouldn't go out and spend $200 on a GPS receiver just to try geocaching.  And if they get into the game, they can purchase premium membership just like I eventually did.

 

I don't want to see people who have have been geocaching for a while yelling at app users to "get off their lawn".

 

34 minutes ago, kunarion said:

But the suggestion is almost exactly like the very first Official App.  The one that was deleted (along with an "Intro App" with reduced features).  And replaced with the system we have now.

 

Yes.  The old app worked well.  And then a new app replaced it that reduced functionality to basic members.  I'm asking for the app to go back to that state, whether for free or possibly through an in-app purchase.

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15 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Everyone gets access to all non-premium caches right now for free for merely signing up on the website.  Better start archiving your caches.

 

You incorrectly restated my statement to argue with it.  Stop that.

 

But you're making my point about the results of this suggestion, so I guess it's OK. :anicute:

 

Edited by kunarion
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7 minutes ago, kunarion said:

If you mean that everyone gets free access to all caches for merely installing an App for free, I need to archive a bunch of my caches before that happens.

 

I wouldn't go as far as archiving my higher D/T and non-traditional caches but I'd likely set them all to PMO should such a change be made. It was bad enough during the COVID lockdowns here when we had a swathe of PM muggles-with-apps (presumably in response to some social media influencer's suggestion to ease the lockdown boredom or some free/discount PM promotion), who never visited the website, had no idea or interest in how caching worked, going out and logging finds on the first stage of multis, DNFs on the bogus coordinates of mysteries and finds on ECs while refusing to answer those "dumb questions about stupid geology". If this was opened up completely to anyone who just wants to anonymously download the free app for a bit of fun and mischief, well, I've seen first hand what the Cache Smasher (that was their BM account name) did in the Hunter region a few years back and wouldn't wish that on anyone.

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26 minutes ago, kunarion said:

You incorrectly restated my statement to argue with it.  Stop that.

 

Your statement:

1 hour ago, kunarion said:

If you mean that everyone gets free access to all caches for merely installing an App for free, I need to archive a bunch of my caches before that happens.

 

My statement:

30 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Everyone gets access to all non-premium caches right now for free for merely signing up on the website.  Better start archiving your caches.

 

I was making a point to counter your fear that people who install the app would have access to your caches.  I'm saying they already do, but not through the app, through the website.

 

I never once suggested that all app users get access to all caches.  My argument is that app users should get access through the app to whatever caches they have access to through the website.  I don't see how this isn't fair, unless it's a money issue, in which I suggested an in-app purchase to unlock all basic member caches to basic members.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

I wouldn't go as far as archiving my higher D/T and non-traditional caches but I'd likely set them all to PMO should such a change be made. It was bad enough during the COVID lockdowns here when we had a swathe of PM muggles-with-apps (presumably in response to some social media influencer's suggestion to ease the lockdown boredom or some free/discount PM promotion), who never visited the website, had no idea or interest in how caching worked, going out and logging finds on the first stage of multis, DNFs on the bogus coordinates of mysteries and finds on ECs while refusing to answer those "dumb questions about stupid geology". If this was opened up completely to anyone who just wants to anonymously download the free app for a bit of fun and mischief, well, I've seen first hand what the Cache Smasher (that was their BM account name) did in the Hunter region a few years back and wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 

The new business model for "The App" was one thing I think TPTB got right (among other things).  There was a lot of thought that went into it, so that it could bring in new paying members, but not offend paying members who don't even need an App (paying for its development and seeing new features demanded for free, for additional costly development)... while the actual web site is in need of the work.

 

I didn't make mine PMO because my caches are fine as long as the new cacher has at least some knowledge of what Geocaching is.  I don't want to prevent people from finding my caches merely because they only hunt a cache or two a day (and therefore don't even pay anything).  But I acknowledge that some of my caches would become much more quiet and easy to maintain if I did that. :anicute:

 

Installing Geo PokeyMan just this minute and trying it out, most of my caches don't show up.  There's something about having to verify the email address, maybe a look at the site (which can't be done without verification), that brings a more responsible finder.  Not perfect, but more responsible somehow.

 

Some of my caches will be gone due to the suggested changes, because no cache could go there historically.  I had to account for someone just now installing the App, bored with a bunch of friends at a soccer game, and going in and trashing the whole cache site because they found out there's a cool treasure box there.  One more cache archived.  As someone who approves the suggestion stated, "Better start archiving your caches".  That's what I meant by TPTB got it right.  Why even risk killing caches just so people can get more free stuff?

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1 minute ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I was making a point to counter your fear that people who install the app would have access to your caches.  I'm saying they already do, but not through the app, through the website.

 

Accessing caches through the website requires them to actually visit the website where they're likely to at least see that there's more to caching than just another phone game like that pokey thing. The problem muggles-with-apps seem to always have profiles that show they've never visited the website, and you can't contact them because they haven't registered an email address and probably haven't even noticed the Message Centre button on the app screen.

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14 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

 

Would you please explain this statement?

 

There's a huge difference in access capabilities between a user just now installing the App and a user verifying their account.  I've explained it several ways already. 

 

TPTB made The App in a way that is inconvenient without a paid account.  The web site is free, use the web site for free.  People who paid but don't have "An App" are paying for the free ride.  If you use "An App", put some money in for it.  Then you see all the caches.

 

Edited by kunarion
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10 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Accessing caches through the website requires them to actually visit the website where they're likely to at least see that there's more to caching than just another phone game like that pokey thing. The problem muggles-with-apps seem to always have profiles that show they've never visited the website, and you can't contact them because they haven't registered an email address and probably haven't even noticed the Message Centre button on the app screen.

 

Yes.  Although I can't seem to contact anycacher, ever. :ph34r:

 

There is something about having to do the "verify my account" process that causes a better cacher to arrive at my caches.  I think it's something like the difference between someone who is joining a community to start a hobby -- and someone who just now found out exactly where there's a Treasure Box Let's Go Get It.

 

Edited by kunarion
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2 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 

There's a huge difference in access capabilities between a user just now installing the App and a user verifying their account.  I've explained it several ways already. 

 

TPTB made The App in a way that is inconvenient without a paid account.  The web site is free, use the web site for free.  People who paid but don't have "An App" are paying for the free ride.  If you use "An App", put some money in for it.  Then you see tall the caches.

 

Verifying your account doesn't change your access capabilities.  If you get the app, and verify your account through the website, you're still limited using the app in ways you aren't limited using the website.  

 

If you think verifying an account makes the person more responsible somehow, then fine.

 

TPTB has made it such that a basic app user must pay for full premium membership (and this become a premium member) to access what a basic website user can access for free.  I had suggested a middle ground of an in-app purchase to unlock those caches that a basic member can get for free using the website.  The old app was $10, so maybe make it $10.  And maybe verifying your account could be part of that deal also; pay an in-app purchase and verify your account. 

 

I just want to see app users have some way of accessing what they can access for free through the website by using the app.  I think that's fair.

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3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Verifying your account doesn't change your access capabilities.

 

It totally 110% changes your access capabilities.  Verifying your account allows access to the web database (even when prior to verification and access, The Official App allows finding caches) and to 3rd party apps that won't do much until you verify.  It doesn't make people responsible, but they don't see my caches until they verify.  They likely won't actually find the container if this is their first try, they don't know what Geocaching is yet, what all the symbols mean, or anything.  So being "unverified" is at least a slight barrier to muggling every cache out there.   

 

3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I just want to see app users have some way of accessing what they can access for free through the website by using the app.  I think that's fair.

 

That idea comes up around the Fori from time to time. I thought it was plenty generous that TPTB allowed people to go hunt a cache or two with no obligation on a free App, testing their ability on people's caches.  Every "Game" App is advertised as FREE, regardless of the ongoing payments (same complaints about the un-free-ness, too!), so this App is just as FREE as the rest, Apps that rake in a fortune, and all are "free".  As long as people pay the meager subscription for full access to the App if they want an App, that's fair.  "App" users should be the main source of income, not getting more for free.  But you don't need any "App" at all to pinpoint caches using the free website.  You can use the "free" App as is with the free site today, no more freebies needed.  My suggestion is to make the App a business card, an ad, helping people decide if they will pay for all the features, and especially to decide what GPS hardware to use.  The fact that it's a pretty good "Geocaching App" upon subscribing, that's pretty amazing.

 

Edited by kunarion
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15 hours ago, kunarion said:

If you mean that everyone gets free access to all caches for merely installing an App for free, I need to archive a bunch of my caches before that happens.

 

Yep, anyone in our area that got to experience the "Intro" app, remembers what a pain-in-the-can it was, and would probably feel the same.

Chasing your "removed" caches every couple of weeks ("I thought that's how you played the game...") wasn't fun.

 - Luckily most were found by other cachers, just sitting alongside trails, and returned.  Still had the original cache's sticker on the sides.

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13 hours ago, kunarion said:

There is something about having to do the "verify my account" process that causes a better cacher to arrive at my caches. 

I think it's something like the difference between someone who is joining a community to start a hobby -- and someone who just now found out exactly where there's a Treasure Box Let's Go Get It.

 

We see it more in the Summer, and after a movie that has it (Hallmark had one recently...). The one weekend n done crowd...

Learned of a "treasure" hunt from some site, and head out thinking there's pirate chests scattered across the world...

They see the one Mc toy, broken, so instead take that shiny geocoin as a "reward" for finding the cache.

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15 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

App users aren't bad people bent on destroying a game we all love, they're trying out and then hopefully continuing in a game that you and I enjoy.  Apps give easy access to people who already have smartphones, and help introduce people to this game, people who normally wouldn't go out and spend $200 on a GPS receiver just to try geocaching. 

And if they get into the game, they can purchase premium membership just like I eventually did.

 

The old app worked well.  And then a new app replaced it that reduced functionality to basic membersI'm asking for the app to go back to that state, whether for free or possibly through an in-app purchase.

 

We've always considered this a hobby, and it hasn't really changed since it started

You could always play for free; it just takes a little extra (but not much...) work.   

People install a free app to see what the hobby's about, just like they'd do with any other "game".

Like any game, in order to get a better tank, more ammo, etc., you gotta pay.

I feel the few people that are interested enough to even enter the website to realize what they're missing by remaining basic, might get a PM.

If you ever looked at the hundreds of "Never" on "last visited" in profiles, you'd realize your belief isn't as common as you assume...

 

The "old" app made no money for Groundspeak other than that first and only payment.  They couldn't stay in business at that rate.

I was a Windows Phone user at the time, the model for the way it is today, and we were the ones that paid PM for the same benefits "everyone else" only paid ten bucks for.

"Free" only works for as long as everyone else's money comes in...

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7 hours ago, RuideAlmeida said:

Sincerely what you are asking for already exists... we call it Premium Membership. Why complicating things with other new payments that (probably on the long run) wouldn't be cheaper than PM?

 

+1

That's the reason people get PM, some at least partly for the added features in The App... the paid part.

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On 3/10/2022 at 12:55 AM, GeoElmo6000 said:

There are three levels of access in the game (from least to most restrictive):

1) Premium members can access all geocaches via app and website

2) Basic members can access all non-premium caches via the website

3) Basic members can access a subset of non-premium caches via the app

So it is actually like this:

1) Premium members can access all geocaches via app and website

2) Registered basic members can access all non-premium caches via the website, and a subset of them via the app

3) Unregistered basic members can access a subset of non-premium caches via the app

 

If the main objection is that unregistered basic members that have never visited the site must not be allowed to access all non-premium caches, and registration requires visiting the site and makes you contactable, then I can also not see why registered basic members should not be able to access the same caches via the app as they can via the website. The app could still restrict unregistered members.

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On 3/11/2022 at 11:34 AM, ChriBli said:

I can also not see why registered basic members should not be able to access the same caches via the app as they can via the website.

 

I'm pretty sure the reason is the App is a luxury, and it's a business decision.   What is a company-built App for?  Maybe to bring in new paying customers.  It's an extra development and support cost, so it must be designed so the preference is to pay for the convenience.

 

Members may try the App, they know it works on their phone, before paying anything.  Then pay PM if it works, which then opens up App features, and they help support the App they like.  

 

If one doesn't like the way that App does things, use any of the varied other ways to go caching instead.

 

At least everyone's on the same page about the web site, insisting that it's all there for free.  Which it is.  On your phone.  Already.  So the suggestion is to have "The App" with everything that's on the web site. Go to the web site, look at a cache, go to The App, go hunt the cache.

 

Edited by kunarion
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On 3/11/2022 at 11:34 AM, ChriBli said:

If the main objection is that unregistered basic members that have never visited the site must not be allowed to access all non-premium caches, and registration requires visiting the site and makes you contactable, then I can also not see why registered basic members should not be able to access the same caches via the app as they can via the website. The app could still restrict unregistered members.

 

I agree and think this is would be a good way to run the app.

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45 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I thought this was kind of related to the discussion. PM couldn't see mystery caches on the app before this announcement? I didn't know that!

Huh? Neither did I. I have always been able to see mystery caches in the app, on the rare occasions when I've used it. God knows it is not the latest version of the app, that is not supported on my phone. Are there any other restrictions for PMs?

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7 minutes ago, ChriBli said:

Huh? Neither did I. I have always been able to see mystery caches in the app, on the rare occasions when I've used it. God knows it is not the latest version of the app, that is not supported on my phone. Are there any other restrictions for PMs?

Ugh. My link didn't work. That blog is from 2015 but I didn't know the link didn't work and you couldn't see that. So sorry.

March 9, 2015:

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2015/03/aint-no-mystery-use-the-geocaching-intro-app-to-find-mystery-caches-this-pi-day/

Edited by Max and 99
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38 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Ugh. My link didn't work. That blog is from 2015 but I didn't know the link didn't work and you couldn't see that. So sorry.

March 9, 2015:

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2015/03/aint-no-mystery-use-the-geocaching-intro-app-to-find-mystery-caches-this-pi-day/

 

I'm not sure if the app being mentioned (the "intro" app) is the same as the current app.  It might be, I'm just not sure.

 

Actually there's a blog post from 2016 where the Intro app became the current geocaching app.  I'm guessing in 2015 they were still building functionality into it.

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2016/03/so-long-intro-meet-the-geocaching-app/

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