Wildfires

October 24, 2003

Here in Southern California we are experiencing a rash of arson caused wildfires, the current situation is that there are at least four wildfires of large acreage going.

Here in the Inland Empire, is the Grand Prix Fire which (from what I saw n TV tonight is within a mile of the Horses and Hockey cache, the cache location was shown on TV.)

There are several known caches that are in the BURNED out areas.

When this is over, there may be a major archival of several of these.

If you have placed caches in the northern Cucamonga/Fontana Area, a check on the caches may be required when the fires are out

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists

4.8k · October 24, 2003

We're having the same problem up here in the Monterey area today. A controlled burn that was supposed to be 500 acres on the old Fort Ord lands, has spread to over 2000 acres. Quite the mess. No structures or people are threatened, but there's a few caches out there that may bite the dust.

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

October 26, 2003

Yesterday we were supposed to go to a Halloween Party in that area. We had planned to hit three caches within a mile of the our friend's house. Instead, they got evacuated. Horses and Hockeys was one the the caches we had planned to visit!

October 26, 2003

I have not been up there yet, but I am sure that several caches up in the Live Oak Canyon area and Marshall Canyon are gone too. I saw on TV that the fire got down as low as the Marshall Canyon golf course. Raggs

October 26, 2003

San Diego has had the worst of it. Over 100,000 acres have burned just today. There have been 8 deaths in San Diego alone. The number of house burned will likely be in hundreds.

The leading edge of the fire is just over 3 miles from us. We are not ready to leave, but we are certainly getting ready and will leave if the situation calls for it.

As for caches lost in San Diego, I am sure there have to be quite a few of them. In looking at the news, I am afraid that Miramar #1, one of my more challenging cache finds yet, is toast.

October 26, 2003

A few of the Northern San Bernardino, CA. caches I believe have been burned.

zip 92407

I saw the fire running thru these two.

Seventeen Palms Oasis Cache

"The Devil's Canyon Cache"

I was going to hit these two this weekend, but fire and evacuation kinda turns your mind in another direction.

I just drove by:

Around the Block Cache

It's still OK, but please stay away for a bit unless you live here, there are far too many sightseers already.

Never leave a rock unturned Cache

I think is fine.

The Cappuccino Cache I believe is ok also. But don't take my word on this one.

October 26, 2003

I had no idea how bad the fires were. I spent the weekend at the Anza Borrego Desert Cache Tour. To go home we come up the I215 to go to Victorville and found out that we needed to go around to the 62 in Yucca Valley to the 247. This is not good news at all.

HappyFrog

October 26, 2003

Caches? I'll worry about those after I find out if I've got a job to go to tomorrow!

(Last count 14 people dead and 600+ homes lost in San Diego County)

-Gary i.

October 26, 2003

San Diego is *bad*.

There are fires in:

Valley Center

Escondido

Ramona to Poway

Santee, Mission Trails, Miramar, Tierrasanta

Clairmont Mesa near Tierrasanta

Alpine

Bad!

There are 14 deaths.

The 100,000 acres is only the Ramona fire. Add many thousands for all the others.

My mom is waiting on evacuation. The fire is heading south to Mission Gorge road, and if it crosses, she's out of there.

If the fire heads west from Valley Center and Escondido, it could cross the freeway and burn the big chaparral area behind my house.

Scary.

Parsa

October 26, 2003

When the flames reach Grossmont Summit or cross Lake Murray Blvd., I'm heading for Duscwe's Dead End Cache:Four....to begin my swim West!!!

I hope the GPS is really waterproof!

-Gary i.

October 26, 2003

Add Otay Lakes. It may head west to Chula Vista and possibly north to El Cajon.

The fire along the 52 is up to the I-805, but may be burned out.

October 26, 2003

Good point!

Add "Or north of Hwy 54" to my previous post.

(The 52 & 805 is between me and work)

-Gary i.

October 26, 2003

There will be many area caches that will need to be redone before this is over. I watched the fire on TV come down the canyon in Mission Trails Park and take out my new cache there. My sister was evacuated from Scripps Ranch this morning. It looks like the fire missed her house by a block. My in-laws have been evacuated from San Carlos and are now parked in my driveway in their RV. If this gets much closer to El Cajon, I will be putting the camper on my truck and preparing to leave. Our thoughts are with all those effected by this terrible tragedy.

October 27, 2003

The Paradise fire has most likely eaten the New Wizard cache, and not being satisified with that, is apparently heading across Daley ranch and towards our condo in North Eastern Escondido. I had no idea we tasted so good!

The rest of the Circus is sleeping with friends in Oceanside, and I'm holding down the fort - and watching the glow to the east VERY carefully. The caches lost (which in the greater scheme of things are terribly minor) cannot be replaced - as much of their camoflage is gone as well. They could be replaced in the Spring, perhaps....

Earl, Ringmaster, (and up past his bedtime)

The Adams Family Circus

October 27, 2003

IS this cache in a fire area?

Alice Cache

NOSEEUMS--High Protein Low Calorie unpacked trail snacks!!!!

See You In the Woods!!!

Natureboy1376

October 27, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Natureboy1376:
IS this cache in a fire area?

It's nowhere near the fires in San Diego, Los Angeles, San Bernardino and Ventura counties.

October 27, 2003

Flagman's house was in Scripps Ranch burn down. There are other geocachers who lived in this area. If there is any way I can help please let me know.

HappyFrog

October 27, 2003

Sadly I am afraid many people have lost homes in this. I was through the CajonPass today, fires still burning, the "Over the Edge Cache" is destroyed. "Around the Block" and the ones on Little Mountain seem ok. I can almost guarantee that 17 Palms and Devil's canyon are toast.

International Booty has been burned over, but may have survived.

I pulled the Cajon Junction TB Motel just before the fire got into that area today, it and it's 7 TBs are in my trunk.

I was unable to access the Hotel Devore, and that area was at least partially burned

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists

9.4k · October 27, 2003

We just made an unplanned trip out here from New Mexico. My Mother-In-Law has just passed away (not related to the fires). The smoke is intense up here (north of Baseline).

Some of our family members have been evacuated (Summit and San Sevane) and at least 8 families from their church have been also.

I talked to my parents on the phone today, they live in North San Diego County. Bates Nut Farm is gone, so is the Woods Valley Campground in Valley Center. One of my cousins has lost his house.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

October 27, 2003

Man, Cajon Pass just burned a year ago! That area is getting hit hard.

San Diego County is still burning out of control. The fires are heading east, in the north toward Mount Palomar, and in the central area toward Julian. Two geocachers at least are homeless.

This is San Diego:

Here is a map of the burned and active areas:

Parsa

9.4k · October 28, 2003

I'll be heading to San Marcos/Escondido later this week. Hope the 15 stays open

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

October 28, 2003

Well I live on the edge of San Bernadino National Forest. The fire is now headed north toward my house. Big Bear and Arrowhead homeowners have been told to get out. The Willow Fire 4 years ago came within a mile of our home and surrounded the little community that I live in. We won't make the news, but we have been told that it should be in our area within 24 hours. I have all my TB's I have picked up in my pack in my car (you know that is very important).

HappyFrog

October 28, 2003

I picked up the remains of "Over the edge" today.

Took about 30 minutes to FIND what was left. The whole thing vaporized.

Jeff

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists

9.4k · October 29, 2003

Did some easy caches in San Berdoo today. I'll have to do the longer hikes when there's no smoke. Missed your helicopters, Bo.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

October 29, 2003

Duplicated post

October 29, 2003

You only missed by 300 feet, they are in my trunk.

I pulled the Cajoon Junction cache out of the fire, and am waiting toi see if the locale is still viable.

If you watched the news and saw a firetruck with a huge fire tornado behind it, THAT was filmed a few feet from where Hotel Devore was/is. Probably WAS.

My wife and I are calling this the Alyssa Curse fire. The Alyssa cache was burned out just after it was placed, and just after Alyssa was replaced, some IDIOT used the place to start THIS fire.

GPSaxophone, I wish I knew you were here, I would have brought the helos to you. I am thinking of sending out the BURNT sunglasses from "Over the Edge" out a a TB in memorial of all that was lost.

Sorry to hear about your Mother-in-law. Please pass my condolences to your spouse, too.

Jef

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists

9.4k · October 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bo Peep & The Sheep:
If you watched the news and saw a firetruck with a huge fire tornado behind it, THAT was filmed a few feet from where Hotel Devore was/is. Probably WAS.

I saw that clip a couple times on the news today. Wicked!

quote:
GPSaxophone, I wish I knew you were here, I would have brought the helos to you.

I'm in town until early next week

quote:
Sorry to hear about your Mother-in-law. Please pass my condolences to your spouse, too.

Thank you

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

October 30, 2003

I'm concerned and saddened for all who lost homes or loved ones in these fires.

That said, I'm very curious...

Why is there so much fuel in these areas? I understand some of them are remote, but is there no forest management in areas that contain homes? Yes, I know there are flames 100s of feet high and all, but they would not be that way were it not for fuel underneath.

Up here in NorCal we learned from the Oakland Hills fire that the hills were just loaded with flammables, ready to go. It almost didn't matter how the fire started, it was going to start eventually and when it did it was awesome. Underbrush management is taken much more seriously in that area now.

If I were losing my home to wildfire because of poor land management, I would be pissed. It's like someone stacking kindling around your house.

October 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by WalruZ:
I'm concerned and saddened for all who lost homes or loved ones in these fires.

That said, I'm very curious...

Why is there so much fuel in these areas? I understand some of them are remote, but is there no forest management in areas that contain homes? Yes, I know there are flames 100s of feet high and all, but they would not be that way were it not for fuel underneath.

Up here in NorCal we learned from the Oakland Hills fire that the hills were just loaded with flammables, ready to go. It almost didn't matter _how_ the fire started, it was going to start eventually and when it did it was awesome. Underbrush management is taken much more seriously in that area now.

If _I_ were losing _my_ home to wildfire because of poor land management, I would be _pissed_. It's like someone stacking kindling around your house.

this is why

October 30, 2003

With the fires there are hundreds if not thousands of caches that have been damaged or destroyed. Be aware that forest land tends to be closed to all access after a fire. if the area has burned you may want to check ahead before you drive a distance so you do not show up and the area is closed to all traffic including hiking. also some county and state parks also will be closed to hiking so just tread carefully in the burn areas. There was a forest area that has caches that burned and the area was closed close to a year and then was open to hiking only. It would be a shame to get arrested or fined checking on a cache in an area that has been closed.

October 30, 2003

I am just praying for all in the middle of "hell"...all these wildfires. So many have lost their houses, some their lives. Caching kinda takes a backseat, dontcha think?

9.4k · October 30, 2003

Yes, but there comes a point where you need to get away from things for awhile. Caching can help with that. I went to San Diego (north county) today and found some caches with the kids. It was a bit cool with the on-shore flow, but that's a lot better than 2 days ago when the smoke was really thick.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

October 31, 2003

Originally posted by WalruZ:
I'm concerned and saddened for all who lost homes or loved ones in these fires.

That said, I'm very curious...

Why is there so much fuel in these areas? I understand some of them are remote, but is there no forest management in areas that contain homes? Yes, I know there are flames 100s of feet high and all, but they would not be that way were it not for fuel underneath.

QUOTE]

In Clevland National Forest, there has been an infestation of a "Boaring Beetle" that has killed many trees in the area. This provided the fuel needed to burn so rapidly. The last 5 years of drought doesn't exactly help either. Not to mention the 45+ MPH winds we experienced Sun. and Mon. Unfortunate as it is, fires are natural and needed in forest areas. My condolences to all who have lost their homes or property. And a HUGE THANK YOU to all the firefighters who saved our house and other houses in the area. I only wish everyone could have been so lucky.

Happy Hunting!!! Watch out travel bugs... here we come.

October 31, 2003

For those who want good information on the fires please check the following website:

http://www.fireupdate.com/index.htm

We are at a friends home. We are still out of our home. Although the fire may not ever get to the house we live in the smoke conditions.

HappyFrog

October 31, 2003

USAFA05 -

You posted a link to an interesting article, but I think it was terribly one-sided. To lay the blame for the conditions that created these fires wholely at the feet of environmentalists is extremely short sighted and I think it does nothing more than allow many to point their finger at their favorite target. The sad truth is that we all bear responsibility for tragedies like this and unless we begin to recognize and deal with that fact it will just keep on happening over and over again until and unless we finally get wise.

The simple fact is that areas like the ones that are burning now are naturally designed to burn. Fire is the mechanism by which chaparral and some of the other scrub plants of this area naturally propagate, and the plants themselves are naturally designed to promote conditions that lead to inevitable burning. And the policy of our forestry agencies - shaped by the misguided will of the general public (that's us, folks) since before you and I were born has been to stop, control, contain or otherwise limit as much as humanly possible any fire wherever and whenever it occurs. I think back to the Yellowstone fire of several years ago when the director of the forest service took incredible flak from nearly every side when he finally had the guts to make the only right decision - let it burn.

Unfortunately, that wisdom is too newly acquired to prevent the sort of damage we're seeing now, and still too misunderstood to stop future instances like this before we finally wise up. Anyone who has been out caching in areas like this has witnessed for themselves the inevitability of the sort of disasters we're experiencing now. I can't tell you how many times I've waded through bone dry tinder three or four feet deep and thought to myself, 'All it would take is a single match or a spark dropped right here...'

We simply cannot prevent these vast areas from burning when it is what nature has designed them to do. It is both a physical and logical impossibility. And to the extent that we are able to delay the inevitable, all we do is make the eventual conflagration far, far worse than it would naturally have been. And the green groups are certainly no more responsible (and I think far less responsible) for the misguided policies that have been in place for so many, many years than the general public that has wrongly assumed for so long that the only safe way to 'manage' forest fires is to do everything possible to prevent them before they begin and everything possible to put them out quickly once they've started. This is not 'management' - it is a futile and misguided attempt at 'control' - a control it is impossible to achieve.

My sincere hope, although it is not an expectation, is that this disaster will finally be the one that wakes us all up, and that we will begin a course that will take us back to a more natural coexistence with the nature around us. This would include:

1. A concerted effort to effect a controlled burn of every area that has not seen a natural burn-off in more than 3-5 years. (Highly unlikely as it would be quite costly and would send every NIMBY who lives too close to insane accumulations of dried tinder into apoplectic fits).

2. A true fire management program that intentionally ignites and monitors the burn of these areas every 3-5 years.

Unless and until that happens, we're going to see nothing but more of the same. We cannot stop nature - we can only interrupt her. And when we do, we will eventually suffer the consequences of our actions.

Peace,

Radical Geezer

October 31, 2003

Affected area, OLD Fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists

October 31, 2003

I've had a little time to research and reflect since my earlier post and wanted to offer a couple more coments. First, I want to say that I'm not a member of any of the various environmental groups. Even so, I have found that my fellow cachers in general are some of the most truly environmentally conscious folks I've ever met.

That being said, it really frosts me when people such as the person who wrote the letter in USAFA05's link use a disaster such as this to grind their own particular axe. I think you'd have a very hard time finding any environmental group or individual opposed to the controlled burning of chaparral brush areas such as those that make up essentially all of the areas currently burning in southern California. In fact, I don't think you'd even find any opposed to the clearing of undergrowth or removal of dead or diseased trees in these areas or in old growth forest areas. What I find as I read is that these groups are opposed to using the clearing of undergrowth or dead trees as a ruse to allow logging of old growth forests.

What I also find - in today's San Diego UT as a matter of fact - is an article on the passing of a forestry bill just last week in the senate, led by Dianne Feinstein, that actually takes a major step toward remedying this long-standing situation. The senate seems to have acted wisely in modifying the original house bill so that a significant portion of the funds allocated to this bill would be designated to address exactly the sort of situation that fostered the current fires.

What I'm trying to say is that we need to stop pointing our fingers at our favorite straw dog (our county supervisor seems to be good at that - she's apparently not satisfied that Gray Davis has been removed from office - she'd like to see him tarred and feathered as well) and accept our responsibility as citizens to see that our government effectively addresses our concerns. If the forestry bill that passed the senate last week does what the article in today's paper says it does, I suggest that we might better expend our efforts in calling the White House and encouraging a quick signing and implementation of this bill.

This is not a time for finding fault - it is a time for finding solutions.

Peace,

Radical Geezer

October 31, 2003

The link you refer to actually makes a great many good points. It possibly goes a bit far, but is in fact very factual.

While I agree that years of faulty forest management practices all around have put us in this situation, I also believe that Radical Environmentalist groups must share a very large part of the blame for what we are seeing here.

The bark beetle has been around for generations, as have droughts. The difference this time is the sheer number of trees. These forests can sustain 50-100 trees per acre, even through drought conditions, and remain healthy enough to withstand the bark beetles. But in the San Bernardino mountains, it has been nearly impossible for land owners to thin/manage their land. Permits have been required to simply cut a branch off one's tree, much less actually cut down a whole tree, and those permits were nearly impossible to get, due to the extreme influence that environmental groups have managed to weild in this state. As a result, the number of trees per acre has increased to 250-400; far too many for the amount of water in drought conditions to healthily sustain. This left them weakened and easy prey for the beetles.

All land management must be balanced. There are those who want to go too far on both sides; environmentalists and developers alike. An approach somewhere in the middle is required. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming this fire situation completely on those groups. But at this point in time, I believe, the pendulum has swung way too far towards the environmentalist side in this state, and we are now seeing the results of not taking a balanced approach to forest management.

The environmental groups want to save the natural planet from human beings...but then just where did "we" come from? Aren't human beings just as much a part of this natural world as anything else? Or do they believe we are aliens from another planet who have no business here? If and when the environmental groups accept the fact that human beings are also "of this world", their policies and philosophies may actually start to take on a resemblence of sense.

[This message was edited by 4x4van on October 31, 2003 at 02:06 PM.]

9.4k · October 31, 2003

Thanks to GeoCan and BoPeep, we are evacuating 8 travel bugs from the Inland Empire. They will all be placed in New Mexico in November.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

October 31, 2003

Pro-green policies ARE a factor, but not the ONLY factor in the problem.

Specifically in the FOREST, not the lower altitude chapparel.

Factors are as follows:

8 different species of bark boring beetles and other parasites, and agricultural issues, such as pine blight.

VERTICAL terrain

Seasonal Occupation by land owners.

Ordinances that require fees for removal of diseased trees.

Lack of enforcement of clearances (100 feet from structures).

Tree overcrowding.

Civil rules that "encourage" rustic appearances and adherance to a "Community Image" for purposes of encouraging tourism, and seasonal use.

Failure to upgrade development requirements to a fire resistant standard, and failure to enforce existing standards.

Failure to develop and implement a viable action against the tree diseases and infestations.

Failure to plan, create and maintain fire breaks

Faiilure to communicate in interagency/community matters and coordinate needs, and remedies.

Failure to implement a plan that increases the evacuation of the population in a timely fashion.

Failure to communicate official information in a timely and comprehensive manner, and failure to establish area specific information outlets in the emergency. (Local radio stations lost antennas, and OTHER unaffected stations did not pick up the Fire information, locally there were four stations which maintained normal music programming, when the San Bernardino Mayor directed the population to listen to KNX radio out of Los Angeles, 100 miles from the fire.) The Emergency Broadcast system was not effective

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists

October 31, 2003

For those interested in visiting Mission Trails Regional Park, the area west of Mission Gorge has been closed until Nov. 17th. Cowles Mountain is still open. I tried to go check on my cache and was turned away by a ranger at the gate. The visitor center did come through and it looks like several of the caches in the area may have made it too. I will hike the burned area once they open it up and check on as many of the caches as possible since I have already visited them.

November 3, 2003

If you look in the southwestern corner of the Cedar fire map you will see the previous location of my "Right off the tracks" cache. It used to be at the south west corner of 163 and 52. Visited the site this morning and could not find any remains to remove. It was a plastic container which I did not expect to survive anyway. Another fire related archive.

nscaler

"Anyone not here, raise your hand!".

[This message was edited by nscaler on November 03, 2003 at 06:13 PM.]

November 7, 2003

The burned up cache "Over the edge" has been replaced with a much SMALLER micro.

A new cache was approved today in Lytle Creek: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=101448

Cajon Junction TB motel is BACK.

Hotel Devore survived the fire and is intact.

"Around the Block" cache was stolen after the fire.

Jeff

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogists

November 22, 2003

I know that many of you are tired of seeing pictures and hearing about the fire. The old fire was up here in the area that I live. This set of pictures just about tell it all. I know that it will sadden some and give heart to others.

Here is a very good slide show on what happened on top of the mountain. It was done by a firefighter, Lance Snider. If you haven't looked at it yet please do. It's definitly worth the time.

http://www.cffd.org/old%20fire/slideshow.htm

The above is the web site, but I could not get it to enter correctly into the message. I hope you enjoy.

Raggs

December 3, 2003

Hi folks,

I was checking through my caches online today, and found a useful page from the San Diego county parks department: a list of the parks and whether or not they're affected by the wildfires. I had to archive To Hell and Back because Hellhole Canyon is closed.

I'd suggest checking the list before heading off to local parks, in case the cache owner hasn't checked on their cache and doesn't know about the park closures.....

Cheers,

Dr. B

Wildfires

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