radical geezer

Hey All! Noticed I was on a list of MIA San Diego cachers (along with, I think, Amelia Earhart, Jimmy Hoffa and Judge Crater) and wanted all my firends to know I'm still hangin' around, but just - very sadly - too darn busy to get out and do any caching lately. I think of you all often and I WILL be on the trails again one of these days, but in the meantime: A. We're (The Wife and I) still working on our novel - a mystery centered on geocaching. We've had a few people read portions of what we've done so far and it seems that the unanimous opinion is that we've got something good there. Just have to find more time to immerse myself in it then find an agent and/or publisher and hope for the best. B. The major impediment to my geocaching time is that I've had to got back to (gasp!) work. Unable to secure a position in any of my numerous and varied fields of expertise, I'm now working as a chauffeur, carting folks all over San Diego, Orange and Los Angeles counties. I'm enjoying it, but it sure puts a heckuva crimp in my available time. The great news is that during the two years I was out of work, The Wife and I discovered that we really, really enjoy each others' company on a 24/7 basis. But that only made it that much harder to return to the ranks of the employed. Gotta get that book done! C. Still planning to plant a Travels with Charley cache, but haven't had a chance to scout good locations for it. D. Any available free time I've had for the past year has been spent with Finnegan, who is now 14 months old and has turned out to be one fantastic beastie. He now holds one obedience title and three herding titles, having won his most recent herding title just last Sunday. One of the judges at his most recent trial told us that she knows all the top Sheltie herders in the country, has seen all of their dogs run, and believes that Finnegan has more talent than any of them. Wow! Really blew us away. He herds kind of like Babe - it's almost like he's made some sort of agreement with the sheep and they just do whatever he asks them to do - no barking, no fuss, and other than a "Watch your sheep" at the beginning of the run and a "That'll do, Finn" at the end, no other corrections or commands from me. Pretty awesome thing to watch, or participate. Glad folks are still finding my caches - gotta get out soon and do some significant maintenance on Lighten Up, but other than that one they all still seem to be in good shape. Anyhoo, that's the story from here. I do try to keep up on the forum to see if there are any events I might be able to pop up at, but that's gonna be real hard for a while at least, as my normal days off are Mondays and Tuesdays. Hope you are all keeping in good health and having a grand time out on the caching trails - promise I'll be caching up with you one of these fine days! Peace, Radical Geezer

Hey Dr. Boggis - The wife and I were out to A-B last Monday, and while you may already have the caches in this area, we can highly recommend the Palm Canyon hike for the wildflowers - they are absolutely everywhere! And of course the stream is running at full force, so the waterfalls are at their best right now as well. We took a slew of pictures - if you'd like to see some examples just email me and I'll shoot some off to you. It's still a bit early for the cactus - some of the ocotillo have bright red blooms at their tips and the barrels may have one or two blooms, but I don't think you'll get a better wildflower display than what's happening right now. We took Finnegan, our geopup in training along, intending to exercise his desert legs, but much to our surprise and dismay, the Palm Canyon hike is a posted No Dogs area , so Finnegan had to veg out in the van and we only hiked as far as the first waterfall. Good thing it was a cool day or we would have had to look for a place where Finnegan could go along and would have missed a really spectacular hike. By the way, Finnegan is now Redwinds Highland Spirit CD, HCT. He earned his AKC Companion Dog Obedience Title at the end of November in Yuma and earned his first herding title from the American Herding Breed Association two Sundays ago in Jamul...and today is his eleven month birthday! The weather and my job have put a real damper on both his training and my caching, but I expect to be out on the trail before too much longer and we're hoping to enter Finnegan in further Obedience and herding trials in March or April and also in Rally trials by then. We might also start him training in Agility after his first birthday. By the way, if any of you own a herding breed dog and have ever wondered if he or she has the herding instinct, we found a woman in Jamul who is quite an expert at evaluating your dog's potential and training both you and the dog. Finnegan won his first title after only three training sessions. Let me know if you'd like to see what your dog can do and I'll give you her email address. It's really quite an experience to see your dog's herding instincts kick in - Finnegan is a total wuss around the house, but get him into a ring with those sheep and suddenly he's a whole nuther animal - absolutely amazing! Peace to all - Radical Geezer

Alas - Alack - I've been hoping to the last that I might be able to at least show up for a while at the campout - at least to let all my friends know I'm still alive and well, but I don't think it's going to happen. Thanks to all those who've inquired about my whereabouts, but like the Slabys and some others, life is currently getting in the way of my geocaching adventures. Still working on the book which, for those of you who aren't aware, is a mystery novel centered on geocaching and largely set in the Anza-Borrego and San Diego county. Besides actually having to earn a living lately, my spare time has been taken up training Finnegan, our geopuppy-to-be. Finnegan is only six months old now, but last Saturday he took second place in the Novice A division of the Hidden Valley Obedience Club AKC trials in San Marcos. He is quite a wonder. Some of the other entrants weren't too pleased to be bested by a six month old puppy, and he was the talk of the ring. We had him entered in the competition on Sunday too, but he didn't qualify in that one - actually, none of the dogs did, as it was pouring rain and it distracted all the dogs. Even so, we were very pleased with his performance, as it was the first time in his entire life he had even seen rain! While you folks are out galavanting around the A-B this coming weekend, we'll be up in Pasadena for Finnegan's next obedience trial. If he qualifies in that one, we'll be trying to earn his Companion Dog obedience title at the Yuma trials in late November (he has to qualify in three different trials under three different judges to earn his title). If I did it right, there will be a picture of Finnegan with his first qualifying ribbon and his second place ribbon below. Have a great time, folks - wish I could be with you! Peace, Radical Geezer

TiredIron, I look at it this way - you don't have to belong to the AKC to own a dog, you don't have to belong to a 'Vette club, or a bridge club or a surfing club, but the existence and activities of each of those clubs both carries weight and benefits all dog owners, 'Vette owners etc. And I do think we need that. I'm not talking about something that will take over the sport, but rather something that will formally represent the sport in the hopes of lending it respectability in the eyes of the general public, most of which have never heard of it before. I suspect that the first time many members of land management groups hear of geocaching is when some anal retentive official, pissed off by the placement of some cache (or the fact that someone had the audacity to place it without paying due homage to him/her), describes the whole operation to them in a meeting in the most negative possible terms. If we have an official entity publicly in place, it would do quite a bit to counter that ('Oh, I've heard of geocaching - isn't that the group whose motto is 'Cache In, Trash Out'?'). The objective is to be able to counter the concerns before they ever arise. Peace, Radical Geezer

I think you read me wrong, Tirediron. I'm no more in favor of additional rules, regulations and restrictions than you - probably less so, as a matter of fact. But I contend that the current system is not working fine and that we need to establish some sort of formal legitimacy. An ad hoc group of cachers addressing a land management authority considering banning will carry very little weight - a recognized organization that has bylaws already in place addressing their concerns will. There is no policing involved, as there is none in the various organizations I mentioned. Believe me, I like the present system just fine - you can read some of my other posts to verify this. But I truly believe trouble is on the horizon for all of us if we don't do some work to provide ourselves with at least an aura of authority, organization and responsibility. Peace, Radical Geezer

I've been reading with concern the thread on Boulder, Colorado - as well as many more stories (some of them locally here in San Diego) of various land management agencies banning or restricting geocaching on their lands, and it occurs to me that if we don't already have a very serious problem then we soon will. Geocaching is growing so quickly that I suggest it is entirely possible it will collapse under its own weight unless we expend some effort looking forward and attempting to address potential threats to the activity before they become actual threats. If various land managers continue to ban geocaching, subsequent land managers will inexorably look not to what impact geocaching is actually having on their lands, but rather to the precedent set by other land managers, i.e., "If X and Y and Z banned it, it must not be good for our land either, so we'd better ban it also." Now I realize there are many people who still live in areas that are cache poor and so may not see the problem. Take it from those of us who live in cache rich areas - if it isn't a problem in your area yet, at the rate geocaching is growing it will be before too long. So this is something that should be of concern to everyone who geocaches. What to do? I have a suggestion to toss out there for serious thought. I think we need to look at legitimatizing geocaching by forming some sort of official organization with specific and more restrictive rules for its membership on geocaching. Now I know what many of you are thinking and, believe me, I am about the last person on earth who wants to heap rules and regulations on anything, let alone geocaching. But I'm also aware enough of cause and effect to realize that unless we take this problem very seriously and take steps to address it very soon, it will ultimately shut down a wonderful and harmless pasttime. The fact is that we are not the first sport/hobby/whatever to face this sort of problem and we won't be the last. But let's take a look at what some of those other activities have done to address the problem. You can't drag race your car down an asphalt strip without getting your butt busted bigtime (this is a good thing!), but you do have the NHRA. Likewise for seeing how fast you can actually push that machine, but you do have NASCAR. Here in southern California, if a pile of us takes over a beach to catch some waves we'll probably be booted out before long, unless it's an offical sanctioned surfing association event. If a bunch of us dog lovers commandeer a corner of one of the city parks we'll be booted out in no time flat, but if it's an AKC sanctioned obedience or agility trial we'll not only be welcomed, but also probably covered by the local paper. What I'm trying to say is that we need - Right Now - to start serious discussions about forming an official Geocaching Association of some sort, with clear rules and guidelines subscribed to by all members that will help us address the concerns - legimate or not - of various land managers and others who would look upon our activity with a jaundiced eye. Among the items that I believe are going to be necessary in those rules are: A finite lifetime for caches placed by Association members. Specific rules about where we will and will not go to place/retrieve a cache. Clear definitions of our respect for the restrictions in place for any property. A real commitment by all Association members to CITO. I'm sure you may think of more - these are only off-the-top-of-my-head examples. If we are really concerned about the future of geocaching, I think there is a strong possibility that if we organize ourselves along these lines we will see a future where land managers who are wont to ban geocaching will still do it - "EXCEPT for caching activities and placements of the International Geocacher's Association" (or whatever). Anyway, we need to start the discussion, and we need to start it right now! Peace, Radical Geezer

NO DOGS???!!!!! Finnegan is Not Pleased. Grrrrrrrrrrr!

Yup - got my Jeep TB notification, too. Mebbe I'll FINALLY have my Travels with Charley multi/puzzle cache ready to go by the time it arrives and put it in there...or mebbe I'll be really nasty and hike on up to Tracy's Cache to drop it off in the middle of the Anza-Borrego in mid summer. Peace, Radical Geezer

Padres - uninspired content, urban location...nah. Peace, Radical Geezer

My point, Parsa, was primarily that I was just having some fun with the idea. Beyond that, the point is that just because I don't get it or you don't get it doesn't mean that someone won't get it. We all have different perceptions of the world of geocaching, just like the rest of the world. The cache that I wouldn't bother with or that you would consider not worth placing might be the single best cache in the world to someone else. Why? Maybe it was placed right at the spot where someone once met their special someone else. Maybe they were looking for a cache to introduce a toddler to the sport and this one was eighty feet from their door. Maybe they had a favorite whatzit as a kid, hadn't seen one for eleventeen years - and found one in this cache. Maybe...I don't know - and that's the point. One person's trash is another person's treasure. So it is with caching as it is with everything else in life. I was just glad to be able to hit the sack last night, but somewhere, someone experienced a sunset they will never, ever forget. It is simply not possible to know how our actions are going to affect others, and it is not possible to set objective value judgements on caches because value judgements are subjective - and this is a GOOD THING! I'm glad that no one seems to have taken offense at my post, because I know I can go overboard sometimes, but I'm just trying to get across that we should all ease up on this because there really isn't a solution to a problem when there really isn't a problem in the first place. In the words of a great (in someone's opinion) philosopher: "Can't we all just get along?" Peace - and I really mean it - Radical Geezer

TO: God FROM: Radical Geezer SUBJECT: Placement Criteria Hey Big Fella (or Gal), I realize you're pretty busy, but there are a few things that have been bugging me for some time and I just need to get them off my chest. First off, let me say that I think you do really great work. I mean, as habitable planets go, this is a really neat place and when it comes to critters, you sure do have a great imagination - not to mention a terrific sense of humor. But there are some instances when I just wonder what you could have been thinking. Take Mount Everest, for example. Awesome! Majestic! I could go on, but I'd run out of superlatives and still not be finished. However...why did you place it clear out in the middle of nowhere like that? I mean, this is the highest point on the whole blessed planet and you put it where, for the most part, only a few yak and the occasional Yeti are going to get the chance to see the great work you've done. Not only that, but you surrounded it with a bunch of other really tall mountains - sort of detracts from the grandeur, don't you think. If it were me, I think I might have dropped it right in the middle of Kansas all by itself. Think of it - easy access from any number of freeways, centrally located in the only country that you really, truly care about (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) and set off by miles and miles of nothing but corn fields and prairie dogs. Wow! Or take the Grand Canyon as another example. Beautiful work, but once again sloppy placement. Nasty heat, nasty cold, nasty creepy crawley critters running all around. Wouldn't, maybe, central Florida have been a better idea? Sure, you would have had a bit of a drainage problem but hey, if anyone could work it out it would be you. You also seem to have wasted a great majority of the acreage you had available on rather ordinary stuff. Lots of ho-hum forests, not many redwoods. Tons of lackluster mountains, not many volcanoes. Oodles of oceans, very few tropical islands. Get my drift? For that matter, the solar system itself seems to be in a pretty uninspired location. a mediocre star sporting nine planets, only one of which is liveable (*Big* mistake there, dontcha think?), sitting way out in the boonies of an ordinary looking galaxy - surely you could have given it a bit more thought and provided us with a home base that was more centrally located. Do you realize how long it's going to take us to visit any of our neighbors? And if any of our neighbors ever drop in on us, they're certainly going to be wondering why the heck you brought them all the way out to this location. What were you thinking? I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Maybe next time you could check with me so we can agree to some placement guidelines that could make this whole creation thing a more worthwhile experience for everyone concerned. Meanwhile, keep up the good work. Yours Truly, RG "Because it is there." - Sir Edmund Hilary

Thanks Dave - That's what I was talking about and that answers my question. ---------------------------- Methinks Earl had his tongue far enough in his cheek that some folks may have missed it Peace, Radical Geezer

Dan-Oh - No, I get the weekly cache notifications just fine, but as my first note said I used to get virtually instantaneous notice of new caches from someone who was providing this as a service - took far more web savvy than I have. But it suddenly stopped some time ago and since I switched computers I lost the contact info. I'm sure several of the San Diego folks were also getting these but I don't know exactly who. BTW, for anyone who hasn't tackled my Mystery Pools of Potrero Creek yet, I just completely refurbished the cache this week with lots of neat swag and what I hope will be a more secure hidey hole. It's a neat place just ask anyone who has tackled it and survived! Check it out! Peace, Radical Geezer

I'd like to join all of you in offering my sincere condolences to Yrium's family and friends at his passing. Only met him once, but worked with him via email in creating Halstaff's Yrium's Pals card and wish I could have known him better. If there are plans to establish a memorial cache in his memory, I think it would be appropriate to include a complete set of Yrium's Pals cards in the cache. I have a few around here I could donate. ------------------------------------------------------ Been following the dis(cuss)ion re cache density and I think I have a radical (naturally) idea - actually it's pretty much a reflection of my own approach to caching: If you don't like 1/1 or seemingly pointless caches...Don't Do Them! If you feel the need to spend days and miles working with maps, clues, dictionaries, reference books and decoder rings to solve/create arcane puzzle caches...Go For It! If you prefer mega mile hikes, climbing gear, scuba equipment, S&R personnel on standby, bloodhounds and lugging a week's worth of food and water along to bag caches in places that even God has forgotten about...Have At It! There is certainly room in this hobby/obsession for all of us - I don't see the point in even entertaining the thought that we should all somehow agree on a single proper philosophy of caching. The way I see it is that whatever fogs your windshield is just hunky dory as long as you're following the quite reasonable rules that have been established. Personally, I see no point in multi-dozen cache-a-thon expeditions, but don't hold those who do go in for power caching in any less esteem. Likewise, I don't place a cache without giving the location and contents several months of thought and place just as much thought into my travel bugs, but I in no way look down upon those who toss some stuff in a tupperware box and shove it in a little cranny down the street. If that's your thing, more power to you. Fact is, you can pretty much determine what your target cache is like from its web page and/or its owner's track record. So if you're disappointed with a given cache and you want to blame someone for your unsatisfactory experience, stand in front of the nearest mirror and point. We live in a cache rich area and I think that's outstanding. There are many, many, many of them I will never visit, but there are many I've already visited that have provided me with the sort of memorable experience which is the reason I cache in the first place. I'm fortunate. If you're in it for the numbers, you are also fortunate. I turned my daughter on to caching last month, but she lives in northwestern Illinois where the nearest cache is twenty miles from her door. How would you like to be in that situation? 'Nuff said. Unlax everybody. Lighten up. We are not all the same, and we can forever thank the Powers that Be for that! Peace, Radical Geezer P.S. Nobody ever answered my question about cache notification. Is it no longer available? Anyone??? Please?????

Howdy Folks - I'm still here - just been too busy with other stuff to get much caching done lately. Had a question though - I used to receive new cache notifications from someone who had an automated notification system, but it's been many moons since I received them and I've changed computers since then and don't have any record of who had been sending them. Is this still going on and, if so, can someone provide me with the contact to get back on the list? Thanks much - and when are we gonna do another campout? Peace, Radical Geezer

For those of you going to the cacheout in ABDSP this weekend, I've added a note to the event page, but realize many people may not look at it again at this late date, so I'm copying it here... A little added incentive for the cacheout: My sister-in-law, Barb, just sent me an article to place in Tracy's Cache. Tracy was her husband. Trouble is, it's way too big to fit in the cache, sooooo...the first cacheout participant to find Tracy's cache after 6 a.m Saturday morning will get this item as a finder's prize. I'll have it with me at the cacheout and you can report to me with the time you found the cache to see if you're first. What is the item, you ask? It is a brand new, still in the package, Ugly Stik by Shakespeare. What the heck is an Ugly Stik, you non-fisherfolks ask? It is a really fine quality six foot rod and spinning reel, complete with its own carrying case. Tracy loved to fish and would be very pleased I'm sure. Happy caching and good luck! Peace, Radical Geezer

Gimme some coordinates Duscwe! and we'll try to be there. Peace, Radical Geezer P.S. I'll probably have to raw newbies with me. If they can't keep up we'll feed 'em to the coyotes!

Okay, I'm confused on a couple of points now, Rocket Man: Do you still want to organize a trip out to the trestle, or is it even possible now? When you talked about a bike trip, I assumed motorbike and dhsundance assumed mountain bike. Which is it? If it's mountain bike, how strenuous would you consider the trip to be? Don't know if my ol' bones can handle peddling that kind of distance. Peace, Radical Geezer

Outstanding, Dave - and thanks! Rocket Man - I assume you're contemplating riding to the trestle during the cacheout? Have you come up with any firmer plan yet? And Dave - will you be able to haul the extra bike out to the cacheout? I'm ready! Peace, Radical Geezer

BTW - guess I should have noted that when I was out yesterday (1/30), every entrance that I observed into Palm Wash from S22 east of the Calcite Mine Road entrance was posted with a Road Closed sign. I may have missed some, but just wanted to alert folks. Peace, Radical Geezer

Just a quick caveat - I could be completely wrong about the map I posted. There is a possibility that the route I took is the green route, but I really don't think so. But since it's a possibility, you really would not want to mess with trying to get a 2WD from Calcite Mine Road to Palm Wash (or vice-versa) by any other route than going back out onto S22. In any event, you don't want to take a 2WD any further up Calcite Mine Road than where I've indicated parking, and if you take a 2WD up Palm Wash, well, you'll see the ledge I talked about and that will be the end of your vehicular excursion. Peace, Radical Geezer

Hey Rocket Man - I'd absolutely love to do it - if you know anyone who has a bike I can borrow. I'm an experienced rider but do not presently own a bike. Peace, Radical Geezer

Rocket Man - I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say None of the Above. Been looking over several different maps to try to find one that best indicates my experience of the area. Here's the best I can do. I've added the pink route to show where your pink route is, and you're right - a high ground clearance 4WD would be absolutely necessary for this route. The green route is I think the normal route. But I believe the trail I took was where I've placed a blue route on this map. It does have a trail marker that says 'Palm Wash' on the Calcite Road (west) end, but it is a short, steep and very nasty descent, which is not reflected in either the pink or green routes. Just north of where the pink route intersects Palm Wash is about a 20 foot dryfall than can be climbed around on its east side to continue the hike up Palm Wash, making the rest of that part of the wash impassable to vehicles. And just north of where the blue route intersects Palm Wash is about a two foot high ledge across the width of the wash. Although there are tires tracks there, I think you'd have to be out of your mind - or have one heckuva set of wheels - to negotiate that ledge. The place where the pink route intersects Calcite Mine Road is 4WD negotiable, but if you drive the pink route down into Palm Wash from Calcite Mine Road, you're going to encounter that ledge I mentioned and could wind up being very sorry you tried it. In short, Calcite Mine Road is negotiable by 2WD with decent ground clearance up to the place where I've marked 2WD Parking, and is negotiable by a high clearance 4WD all the way. Palm Wash is negotiable by 2WD with good clearance up to where the blue route intersects. The blue route is probably high clearance 4WD negotiable, and the pink route is really iffy because of that ledge I mentioned. Anything north of the intersection of the pink route and Palm Wash is strictly hiking. Peace, Radical Geezer

I was up Calcite Mine Road today to plant a new cache in anticipation of the upcoming cacheout - an interesting experience to be sure. Before I left, The Wife said, 'Promise you won't do anything stupid.' I said, 'I promise I won't do anything stupid.' Took the Calcite Mine Road turnoff and got within .6 miles of Calcite Cubby, which I was intending to snag along the way, at which point the road became, um, interesting. So I sez to myself, 'I promised The Wife I wouldn't do anything stupid,' and like a good boy I parked the van and hiked the rest of the way. Found Calcite Cubby and a good location for my new cache (which, by the way, has a Diamond Rio MP3 player in it for the First Finder - that oughta spark some interest). Then I was gonna grab Calcite Cave Cache, which is on the other side of Locomotive Rock, across Palm Wash. Hiked down to the wash, where I was met with at least a 50 foot dropoff to the canyon floor. I sez to myself, 'I promised The Wife I wouldn't do anything stupid,' so like a good boy I turned around and hiked back to the van, figuring I could get from Calcite Mine Road to Palm Wash without too much difficulty. Sure enough, I hadn't gone very far back down the road before I encounter a little brown sign on my left that sez 'Palm Wash'. The road didn't look too bad, and it was only about .1 mile or so down into the wash, so I turned left. Within about 150 feet the road sort of disintegrated in front of me. Even my ol' mountain goat Chevy van was not equipped for what lay before me. I sez to myself, 'I promised The Wife I wouldn't do anything stupid.' Howsomeever, there was no way to turn the ol'van around, and the slope was such that it was impossible to back up, so the only way out of where I was was either airlift or down. To make a long story a bit shorter, I had to stop three times in the next couple hundred feet to literally build a road for the ol' van - tossing rocks into gulches that would have swallowed an Escort whole - and wolfed down a Camry for dessert. Even had to move one boulder about the size of a doghouse a few feet to try to make sure the ol' van still had some paint on her sides when and if I got through there. I did make it - and without so much as a scratch on the ol' van! Trouble is, now I was down at the bottom of Palm Wash and there was no way on God's green earth I was getting back out the way I came in. That worry would have to wait. Onward to seek out Calcite Cave cache. The GPS lost satellites when I was indicating about .18 miles from the cache, and I probably went another .05 or so when I encountered a huge boulder blocking the slot canyon, which was only about 3 feet wide at this point. It was about 8 feet from the floor of the wash where I was to the top of the boulder, with sheers sides and precious little in the way of hand or foot holds. So I sez to myself, 'I promised The Wife I wouldn't do anything stupid,' and with a great sigh of resignation, called off the hunt for the day. Back to the van, with numerous supplications lifted heavenward along the way that I would be able to find another way out of Palm Wash. Much to my relief, the wash got broader and showed more evidence of vehicle traffic as I went, but for the life of me I couldn't find a way out of it back up to S22. To make an even longer story - and long cache hunt - just a bit shorter, I wound up driving the wash all the way out to Salton City in order to get out of it. Approaching Borrego Springs, I called The Wife on the cell phone and told her, 'Guess what? I almost kept my promise to you that I wouldn't do anything stupid today!' She didn't want to hear about it. This is an outstanding area with incredible views, and I'm looking forward to the cacheout - and maybe T.R Violin can clue me in on how the heck to get to Calcite Cave cache! Peace, Radical Geezer

Hey Splashman & Splashette - How about talking your daughter into having the wedding out in the AB - that way you wouldn't have to miss anything and I bet it would be a unique experience. Guests could hide their wedding presents all over the park and provide coordinates...you could hold the reception in the Mud Caves...heck, I could even perform the ceremony! And if she's lucky, your daughter may even be able to log a FTF on the groom! Peace, Radical Geezer