Discrepancy between app map and cache planning map?

[Sanderling13]

Hello! I was wondering what the reason was for the discrepancy between the map in the app and the one that shows the red "taken" circles on the planning map when you go to "Hide a geocache". The latter shows more circles than are visible as active caches in the app. Are these submitted-but-not-yet-approved caches? Archived caches? Something else?

 

When I was doing the research about placing a cache, it didn't mention needing to check the planning map specifically (at least, I don't think it did?) so I was working off the map in the app when I was ensuring the necessary distance for our placement. When I went to submit our caches I was surprised to discover four red circles in the area we'd chosen that I'd thought was empty.

 

Mostly I'm just bummed cuz I was doing this with the kids as a homeschool project and they were really excited, we spent lots of time picking just the right spot, etc, and now we have to trudge back to pick them up again.

 

Thanks for any clarification.

[+barefootjeff]

I see you're a Basic member so the app will only show traditional caches with a D/T rating of 2/2 or less. The planning map however will show all visible physical waypoints of any cache type and regardless of D/T rating.

Edited November 9, 2020 by barefootjeff

[Sanderling13]

Thanks for the answer.  So then what are the gray cache markers in the app map? When I click on them it prompts me to upgrade to a Premium member to view details. I assumed those were the ones with higher difficulty/terrain and/or non-traditional type. There are no markers at all (of any colour) shown in the app map in the area we were planning to plant our caches. Are certain unavailable-to-Basic cache types represented with a gray upgrade-required marker and other ones just not shown at all?

[Sanderling13]

Curiously, I just checked the website map and it shows something different again!  ? The website displays (as green markers) the D/T > 2 caches just like it does the D/T < 2 ones - I have to click on each to see the rating. There are at least a couple I see here of higher D/T that are not shown in my app map. It also shows the non-traditional caches in orange (eg. that are gray in my app) and, interestingly, all the information about them that I need to upgrade to premium in the app for. I can also view the Adventure Lab info that is protected in my app. Disabled caches are shown in gray.

 

However, it still does not show anything at the location of the four red circles in the planning map... So I have to assume that these are newly submitted caches awaiting approval? (In which case, we'll look forward to them being published! They're in one of our favourite areas.)

Edited November 9, 2020 by Sanderling13

[Darwin473]

On 11/9/2020 at 1:48 PM, Sanderling13 said:

So then what are the gray cache markers in the app map?

 

The app is designed for anybody and everybody to have a go. As par of their marketing strategy, Groundspeak (the parent company) went for the idea of having non-Traditional caches (multi-cache, Letterbox, Mystery, etc) and caches harder then 2/2 be "greyed out" and prompt the player to upgrade to Premium. This keeps funds flowing in to Groundspeak which allows them to provide ongoing development and support for the app (which is essential due to the constantly-evolving nature of mobile devices).

 

The web version is more forgiving, and shows you more options - pretty much all caches and cache types except for Premium-only caches. Some people (read: cheapskates like me) only have the Basic membership, and get (some) of the Premium benefits by alternating between the app and using a browser on the phone to view cache listings.

 

On 11/9/2020 at 1:48 PM, Sanderling13 said:

Are certain unavailable-to-Basic cache types represented with a gray upgrade-required marker and other ones just not shown at all?

 

it could be the latter - Premium-only caches won't be visible to you seeing as you are a Basic member. They could also be stages of multi-caches or other cache types which only show the initial Way Point on the map, but not other Way Points.

 

On 11/9/2020 at 2:00 PM, Sanderling13 said:

It also shows the non-traditional caches in orange

 

Orange ones are multi-caches, where the cache listing gives you the first Way Point (or stage), and when you get there either something physically there (like find a date on plaque) or something from the listing will tell you how to get to the next Way Point. Multi's can have an unlimited number of stages, though the average (that I've seen) is usually less then 5, with most being two or three.

 

Blue ones, with a little envelope are Letterbox caches - they have a unique stamp in them. The idea is that you have your own logbook and stamp and when you get there you stamp the cache logbook with your stamp and stamp your logbook with the cache stamp. Some people love these, other people hate them. Unfortunately the stamps are often taken - either deliberately or by mistake.

 

Blue ones with a question mark are challenge caches - something like "You can log this one if you have found five caches in Arizona" or "You need to have moved ten trackables". What the actual challenge is can vary quite a lot, but there are certain limits and all needed to be approved by a Reviewer to make sure they are actually achievable.

 

The ones with a little icon of the Earth with a quarter cut out are Earth Caches and are often at places of interest such as cliffs, beaches, lakes, etc.

 

There are a few other types.

 

On 11/9/2020 at 2:00 PM, Sanderling13 said:

So I have to assume that these are newly submitted caches awaiting approval?

 

Possible, but not necessarily. It is more likely they are Premium-only or stages for an existing cache with multiple Way Points.

Edit again: looks like yes, they can be PMO caches - see further down

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Unit473L
As IceColdUK below pointed out, Premium caches won't show for Basic members - 2nd Edit, nope they do

[+IceColdUK]

9 minutes ago, Unit473L said:

5 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

So I have to assume that these are newly submitted caches awaiting approval?

 

Possible, but not necessarily. It is more likely they are Premium-only or stages for an existing cache with multiple Way Points.

 

PMO caches (or their stages) should not be visible to Basic members at all.  And unpublished caches won't show up on the planning map either.  But all physical waypoints (when marked as 'visible') will show up on the planning map.

 

(It's also worth mentioning that there are plenty of hidden waypoints - as well as PMO caches - that won't show up on the map, but will still hinder cache placement.)

 

I'm intrigued now - could you share the coords of where you were looking to hide the cache?

[Sanderling13]

13 hours ago, Unit473L said:

Some people (read: cheapskates like me) only have the Basic membership,

 

Ha! Well, in our case it's that I wanted to "test the waters" with the kids before going whole hog with it. It does make sense that they'd reserve a portion of the functionality / opportunities for paying members. I run a participation website myself and we do something similar in offering some free content but more advanced stuff behind a paywall.

 

We actually did what you do for one in our neighbourhood today, looked it up on the browser to get the approximate location. I figured we could place caches relatively early in this try-out phase since they're in areas we walk regularly anyway and would be easy to maintain even if the kids lose interest.

 

Thank you so much for the super info! It is really enlightening and helpful. We'll have to investigate some of the other types if the kids take a shine to this.

 

13 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

I'm intrigued now - could you share the coords of where you were looking to hide the cache?

 

Sure! Initially we were looking at 44.946895, -76.042306 and one other along the same trail. When we went back today, I ended up finding a spot further down the trail in a gap between the four "taken" areas, and we moved ours there (double-checked availability with the "Hide a geocache" page before we left to be sure!).

 

Interestingly, as we were returning to move that one, I happened to notice a lightly-worn trail curving behind some cedars and, upon investigation, turned up a geocache that aligns with the location of one of those circles. It's been there since early in the summer, according to the log. The D/T of the site were both super easy so I have to assume it's Premium (if indeed it is) for some other reason, then.

[+TriciaG]

I thought those coordinates looked fairly close by! If you're on Facebook, be sure to join https://www.facebook.com/groups/centralontariogeocachers/ where you'll find a good bit of localized help. :)

[+thebruce0]

32 minutes ago, TriciaG said:

I thought those coordinates looked fairly close by! If you're on Facebook, be sure to join https://www.facebook.com/groups/centralontariogeocachers/ where you'll find a good bit of localized help.

 

Seconded

[+IceColdUK]

9 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

 

Sure! Initially we were looking at 44.946895, -76.042306 and one other along the same trail.

 

23 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

 

PMO caches (or their stages) should not be visible to Basic members at all.

 

Time for me to eat some humble pie!  Basic members DO see premium caches on the Planning Map!  (What do I know?)

 

Search Map for Basic Member:

 

 

Search Map for Premium Member:

 

 

Planning Map for both Basic and Premium Members:

 

 

[+IceColdUK]

10 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

Interestingly, as we were returning to move that one, I happened to notice a lightly-worn trail curving behind some cedars and, upon investigation, turned up a geocache that aligns with the location of one of those circles.

 

Good work!  Even though the cache is PMO, you can still log your find (assuming you did put you name in the logbook).

[Darwin473]

I've been wrong before too (probably will be again), It's good to learn new information.

[Sanderling13]

On 11/9/2020 at 8:41 PM, TriciaG said:

I thought those coordinates looked fairly close by! If you're on Facebook, be sure to join https://www.facebook.com/groups/centralontariogeocachers/ where you'll find a good bit of localized help.

 

Thank you! I'm admittedly not on Facebook too often, but I do have an account. I'll definitely try to pop over! I'm in eastern Ont.

 

20 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

Time for me to eat some humble pie!  Basic members DO see premium caches on the Planning Map!  (What do I know?)

 

Search Map for Basic Member:

 

Ah, interesting comparison! Now, I wonder why Groundspeak decided to make those premium caches invisible in the app - wouldn't it make more sense to tempt Basic members into upgrading by showing them the plethora of local caches they're missing out on? ? It's funny that they've done it with one group of premium caches but not the other.

 

20 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

 

Good work!  Even though the cache is PMO, you can still log your find (assuming you did put you name in the logbook).

 

We did sign our name, yes! How does one go about logging a cache that doesn't appear on the map? We logged a not-in-app cache in our neighbourhood by going through the website, but this one doesn't show up anywhere for me. The logbook inside the cache didn't appear to have a cache name/code written on it, or I assume I could search it?

 

 

[+IceColdUK]

2 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

Ah, interesting comparison! Now, I wonder why Groundspeak decided to make those premium caches invisible in the app - wouldn't it make more sense to tempt Basic members into upgrading by showing them the plethora of local caches they're missing out on? ? It's funny that they've done it with one group of premium caches but not the other.

I guess they hope that the greyed-out ‘advanced’ caches (i.e. non-trads + higher D/Ts) shown in the app will be enough to tempt cachers to upgrade.

 

Put the PMO caches on a map for a Basic member - even without showing too much detail - and you’ve pretty much defeated the purpose.  (Which is why I was so convinced they didn’t appear on the planning map either.)

 

2 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

We did sign our name, yes! How does one go about logging a cache that doesn't appear on the map? We logged a not-in-app cache in our neighbourhood by going through the website, but this one doesn't show up anywhere for me. The logbook inside the cache didn't appear to have a cache name/code written on it, or I assume I could search it?

 

If you have the GC code you can log your find, e.g. here:

https://www.geocachingadmin.com

 

Can you tell which of the four PMO caches  you found (from the screenshots above)?  Rough coords?

[Darwin473]

3 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

Now, I wonder why Groundspeak decided to make those premium caches invisible in the app...

 

I won't claim to know the inner workings of Groundspeak HQ, but I believe that the common consensus is that the reason for making some caches Premium Only is to try and make it harder for the nasty type of people that enjoy going around destroying caches, putting undesirable things in them (like food that will spoil) or other nefarious activities. My personal belief is that since some of those people just pay for Premium and then go and do that anyway, and since it's the players who fund placing and maintaining caches then it's a way for Groundspeak to make money - though that's just the bitter old cynic in me trying to get out.

 

If the PMO caches showed up as grey circles on the map, then many people could hone in on the approximate location using the map, and then guess or trial-and-error where the PMO cache is. I've heard that some people try and "battleship" the planning map by repeatedly applying to place caches and use that to try and work out where non-displayed caches are hidden. Personally, I think that sounds like a lot more effort than the 58c a week that Premium costs.

[Sanderling13]

16 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

Put the PMO caches on a map for a Basic member - even without showing too much detail - and you’ve pretty much defeated the purpose.

 

15 hours ago, Unit473L said:

If the PMO caches showed up as grey circles on the map, then many people could hone in on the approximate location using the map, and then guess or trial-and-error where the PMO cache is.

 

Ah, I didn't even think of that - but of course that makes sense! Maybe they just need a little box in the corner of the map that says like "3 Premium caches not shown" or something. ?

 

15 hours ago, Unit473L said:

I've heard that some people try and "battleship" the planning map by repeatedly applying to place caches and use that to try and work out where non-displayed caches are hidden. Personally, I think that sounds like a lot more effort than the 58c a week that Premium costs.

 

That sure does! Gotta admire their dedication, though. ? The membership cost really isn't that much if you pay annually. Or even just buy one month and copy all the data you need/want to someplace offline, if money is tight.

 

16 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

If you have the GC code you can log your find, e.g. here:

https://www.geocachingadmin.com

 

Can you tell which of the four PMO caches  you found (from the screenshots above)?  Rough coords?

 

That's really handy to know! I've seen the GC code written in a few logbooks (if not this one).

 

Of the four, it was the second from the top, third from the top if you include the Basic-visible cache; the cache at the lower end of the two lakes.

 

Thank you!

[+IceColdUK]

7 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

Of the four, it was the second from the top, third from the top if you include the Basic-visible cache; the cache at the lower end of the two lakes.

 

This one is GC8V4ZJ: RLATVC #4 Happy Father's Day.  The other three PMO caches are in the same series, set by 'The Colour Blue'.

 

[Sanderling13]

On 11/12/2020 at 4:24 AM, IceColdUK said:

This one is GC8V4ZJ: RLATVC #4 Happy Father's Day.  The other three PMO caches are in the same series, set by 'The Colour Blue'.

 

Thank you so much for looking this up! I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. I just had a chance to try looking it up using the admin link you provided, and while it does find the cache, only the header details (name, code, D/T, etc) are visible; everything else, including the ability to log it, requires an upgrade to Premium.

 

The D/T are both 1.5 and the cache type is Traditional. What is it about this cache that makes it Premium-only? When I submitted my 1.5 D/T Traditional caches I don't recall anything else in the submission form that might have resulted in a Premium designation, or even a place where you might choose to have it listed as such.

[+barefootjeff]

21 minutes ago, Sanderling13 said:

Thank you so much for looking this up! I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. I just had a chance to try looking it up using the admin link you provided, and while it does find the cache, only the header details (name, code, D/T, etc) are visible; everything else, including the ability to log it, requires an upgrade to Premium.

 

To log it from the geocachingadmin site, enter the GC code then click on the Log button. That should work for Basic members.

 

 

 

[Sanderling13]

12 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

To log it from the geocachingadmin site, enter the GC code then click on the Log button. That should work for Basic members.

Aha! I missed that button the first time. Thank you so much! I’ve been really impressed with how welcoming and helpful everyone here has been, even with a stumbling newbie like me. I feel like that’s not a universal experience on the internet these days. So thanks, everyone.

[+CAVinoGal]

16 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

What is it about this cache that makes it Premium-only?

Simply, the Cache Owner's desire to make it so, for whatever reason they deem it to be designated as PMO.

 

16 hours ago, Sanderling13 said:

When I submitted my 1.5 D/T Traditional caches I don't recall anything else in the submission form that might have resulted in a Premium designation, or even a place where you might choose to have it listed as such.

That's because you are a Basic member, I would imagine.  You need to be a Premium member to be able to place PMO caches.  When I create a cache, I have a checkbox I can select if I want to make the cache a PMO.

[Sanderling13]

On 11/14/2020 at 2:02 PM, CAVinoGal said:

When I create a cache, I have a checkbox I can select if I want to make the cache a PMO.

 

Ah, interesting! That makes a lot more sense, then. Thanks for the explanation! 

[+ganseyiii]

This happened to me, too—I didn't see any caches on my local trail listed on the website and got excited about hiding one there, but when I checked the planning map the whole area was covered by overlapping red circles. I'm bummed that I won't be able to put anything there for non-Premium members like me. I'm glad you found another spot that worked for you!

Edited December 27, 2020 by ganseyiii