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RakeInTheCache

How to handle a waymarker who keeps insisting on submitting an ineligible site?

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How do you handle a waymarker who keeps insisting on submitting an ineligible site after it's been declined?

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Serious patience is required.  Do not give in.

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Posted (edited)

I plan on having to do this myself, soon. I'm thinking a new waymark I'm working will be declined even tough it fits completely within category requirements. My expected problems come from discussion here in the forums.

 

Edited by vulture1957

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Could there possibly be a benefit of having a third party take a look?

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You can edit a waymark and select "Block original waymark poster from editing this waymark?", i had to do it once after 5 submissions without any changes or arguments

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1 hour ago, Alfouine said:

You can edit a waymark and select "Block original waymark poster from editing this waymark?", i had to do it once after 5 submissions without any changes or arguments

☹️

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19 hours ago, vulture1957 said:

My expected problems come from discussion here in the forums.

 

Not sure what you mean by that.

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16 hours ago, saopaulo1 said:

What makes it illegible? Could it go into another category?

It most likely could go into another category but I'm not sure which.  In this case the category is 1000 places to see before you die.  The waymarker submitted the plaza on which stands the Santiago de Compostella church which is an entry in the book. It has already been Waymarked.  The category description is clear that a site should only be waymarked once. So in this case the rule is clear and it was explained to the waymarker.

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16 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Could there possibly be a benefit of having a third party take a look?

This is in the problematic 1000 places to see before you die category.  Officers are incommunicado and don't vote.  I'm working to try and improve this.

 

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3 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

This is in the problematic 1000 places to see before you die category.  Officers are incommunicado and don't vote.  I'm working to try and improve this.

 

That's why I thought a third-party might be helpful. 

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1 minute ago, Max and 99 said:

That's why I thought a third-party might be helpful. 

But in this case, who would the third-party be?

 

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19 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

But in this case, who would the third-party be?

 

Maybe someone active in Waymarking, or someone on the forums who can take a look and just give you their opinion on whether the waymark meets the requirements. 

It's just a suggestion to help you out.

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Posted (edited)

Do the books list the plaza (WM12VVB) separate from the cathedral (WMNZEV)?

Edited by elyob

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If I were the reviewer (and the officers would not vote to assist me), I too would consider this a duplicate.  The real issue is how many times can a reviewer decline and not lose patience?

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, elyob said:

Do the books list the plaza (WM12VVB) separate from the cathedral (WMNZEV)?

This was the question I asked myself as I don't have all of the editions (mine is 10 years old). So I did what I would intend to add to this category which was to ask the waymarker to upload a photo of the entry in the book which they did. They entry has not changed since my edition and the plaza is merely cited in the text of the description of the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostella entry.

Edited by RakeInTheCache

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Hello.

I am the waymarker that write for Plaza del Obradoiro.

I said to rewiew that one thing is the cathedral and other thing was the Plaza Obradoiro thay contains a lot of monuments (one is the cathedral)

https://www.santiagoturismo.com/rutas/praza-do-obradoiro

In this web, you can see all the buildings that are here.

Other thing was the rewiever said to me that Santiago the Compostela wasn't a big or important city, and was the capital of Galican and finish of Santiago Camino at same time that Paris was the capitak of France, and a lot of centuries later born Washington, Madrid, etc.

I have "1000 places to see before you died full color edition 2nd edition" that I do not mind sharing with the reviewers to demostrate that the square appears and not all of religious buldings are 1000 places to see... Attached over.

 

Coments from the reviewer (aren't apropiated) for example  "I do not consider Santiago de Compostela to be a major city"

or 

"If you want to play games..., but you're starting to develop a bad reputation" when I ask if I can appeal

 

We must remember that this is a play game, and some coments left over.

 

IMG_20200724_005548.jpg

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2 hours ago, RakeInTheCache said:

Not sure what you mean by that.

start reading on the 2nd page of Who would like to help with Where's In A Name waymarks at this part of the discussion

On 12/30/2019 at 9:40 PM, vulture1957 said:

or, you could say it converts to 2 deg, 62.342. makes it 3 02.342 which would be in England , France and Spain.

 

I'm sorry to have to report that based on the history of decline comments, you can't add a zero to the front of your name. I really wish the category description could clarify these things, but I'm not the leader and can't edit. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Ariberna said:

Hello.

I am the waymarker that write for Plaza del Obradoiro.

I said to rewiew that one thing is the cathedral and other thing was the Plaza Obradoiro thay contains a lot of monuments (one is the cathedral)

https://www.santiagoturismo.com/rutas/praza-do-obradoiro

In this web, you can see all the buildings that are here.

Other thing was the rewiever said to me that Santiago the Compostela wasn't a big or important city, and was the capital of Galican and finish of Santiago Camino at same time that Paris was the capitak of France, and a lot of centuries later born Washington, Madrid, etc.

I have "1000 places to see before you died full color edition 2nd edition" that I do not mind sharing with the reviewers to demostrate that the square appears and not all of religious buldings are 1000 places to see... Attached over.

 

Coments from the reviewer (aren't apropiated) for example  "I do not consider Santiago de Compostela to be a major city"

or 

"If you want to play games..., but you're starting to develop a bad reputation" when I ask if I can appeal

 

We must remember that this is a play game, and some coments left over.

 

IMG_20200724_005548.jpg

 

 

Each and every Waymarking category has its own set of rules.  The rules were not invented by the reviewer.  As a reviewer, it is my job to enforce the rules of the specific Waymarking category.  If the rule for the Waymarking category states that their can only be one waymark created for each entry in the "1000 Places to See Before You Die" book then I can only allow one waymark in that  category.

 

If you want to make the cathedral's plaza into a waymark then submit your waymark to a different category which will have its own rules.

Edited by elyob

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Posted (edited)

No problem elyob

Is a game, but Old-Santiago whit this Sqaure is European Heritage and Unesco. And is Plaza do Obradoiro, no Cathedral's plaza.

I thought this for 1000 ... but no problem.

There are a lot of waymarks in the world for submit.

I know a reviewer has to be patient, but sometimes some comments are not appropriate.

This time I will not be frustrated with waymark and I will continue enjoying. A greeting. For example I have to check for the same category El Malecón de La Habana

Edited by Ariberna
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27 minutes ago, vulture1957 said:

start reading on the 2nd page of Who would like to help with Where's In A Name waymarks at this part of the discussion

I'm sorry to have to report that based on the history of decline comments, you can't add a zero to the front of your name. I really wish the category description could clarify these things, but I'm not the leader and can't edit. 

I'm sorry that my efforts to make things more clear in the category edit were not good enough. 

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don't worry max and 99 The question for me is finished.

Thanks a lot.

Let's we playing again.

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15 minutes ago, Ariberna said:

don't worry max and 99 The question for me is finished.

Thanks a lot.

Let's we playing again.

Vulture was talking about a completely different category than the one you were talking about. 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Ariberna said:

No problem elyob

Is a game, but Old-Santiago whit this Sqaure is European Heritage and Unesco. And is Plaza do Obradoiro, no Cathedral's plaza.

I thought this for 1000 ... but no problem.

There are a lot of waymarks in the world for submit.

I know a reviewer has to be patient, but sometimes some comments are not appropriate.

This time I will not be frustrated with waymark and I will continue enjoying. A greeting. For example I have to check for the same category El Malecón de La Habana

I'm sorry, but you forgot to mention that I did ask you to contact me.  Which you did not do.  The problem could have been resolved via an e-mail exchange rather than repeatedly submitting the waymark. By repeatedly submitting a waymark after receiving a reason for the decline, you give the impression of wanting to play games.  Please use the e-mail facility to clarify points.

Edited by RakeInTheCache
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10 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

I'm sorry, but you forgot to mention that I did ask you to contact me.  Which you did not do.  The problem could have been resolved via an e-mail exchange rather than repeatedly submitting the waymark. By repeatedly submitting a waymark after receiving a reason for the decline, you give the impression of wanting to play games.  Please use the e-mail facility to clarify points. 

Why can't a waymarker resubmit, with information in the Private Message box? 

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1 minute ago, Max and 99 said:

Why can't a waymarker resubmit, with information in the Private Message box? 

As I recall, there was no information in the Private Message box.  I have not found the Private Message box to be completely reliable.  Why not send an e-mail?

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Just now, RakeInTheCache said:

As I recall, there was no information in the Private Message box.  I have not found the Private Message box to be completely reliable.  Why not send an e-mail?

Because maybe some people don't feel comfortable sending emails to officers. Maybe they would prefer to just communicate via the waymark page, the way it's set up to be. By including the information on the waymark page, it's available to all officers. A private email is not. 

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2 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

As I recall, there was no information in the Private Message box.  I have not found the Private Message box to be completely reliable.  Why not send an e-mail?

I understand. You have to understand the glitches to use it effectively. Someone may put a message in this box and not realize that if nothing else was changed on the waymark the officer won't see the message. It's unfortunate.

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also, the reviewer is not required to identify themselves (and in my experience, they don't normally do it) so I have no way of emailing, and must use the PM box. But 99 makes a good point, using the PM Box makes the info available to other officers.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Because maybe some people don't feel comfortable sending emails to officers. Maybe they would prefer to just communicate via the waymark page, the way it's set up to be. By including the information on the waymark page, it's available to all officers. A private email is not. 

In this case I provided my handle to the waymarker and made a specific request to e-mail me.  And again, as I recall (although not 100% certain), the waymarker did not use the Private Message box.  In any case, a comment was not clearly visible on the resubmission.  I'm not sure why someone would be any more uncomfortable sending e-mails through the interface which insures privacy to an officer than sending something through the Private Message box.

Edited by RakeInTheCache

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6 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

In any case, a comment was not clearly visible on the resubmission

That does cause a problem for the officer who is re-reviewing the waymark. I understand. 

 

7 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

I'm not sure why someone would be any more uncomfortable sending e-mails through the interface which insures privacy to an officer

There's the problem. It's private. Some prefer that it not be private. If it's done on the waymark page, it's not private. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Ariberna said:

 

 

Coments from the reviewer (aren't apropiated) for example  "I do not consider Santiago de Compostela to be a major city"

or 

"If you want to play games..., but you're starting to develop a bad reputation" when I ask if I can appeal

 

We must remember that this is a play game, and some coments left over.

Here's the text of the comment -  "Sorry, I think I missed your photo when you posted a second time. But please note in the category description "With the exception of major cities (New York, Rome, London, etc.), only one waymark submission per indexed site (in the book) will be accepted. Some indexed major cities include multiple sub-indexes which are acceptable submissions." I do not consider Santiago de Compostela to be a major city."

I don't see anything inappropriate there.

Edited by RakeInTheCache

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Someone may put a message in this box and not realize that if nothing else was changed on the waymark the officer won't see the message. 

Yup, that's it.

 

This probably explains the whole incident.  The waymarker was trying to justify his submission using the Private message box but nothing in the submission had changed so his justification was never communicated to the reviewer and the reviewer had to assume that the waymarker was being unreasonably obstinate.  In this case, I believe the only solution is communication by e-mail. I apologize to the waymarker for jumping to conclusions.

Edited by RakeInTheCache
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12 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

I don't see anything inappropriate there.

Me neither. I don't have the facts of the waymark, but certainly your denial wording was good! 

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Part of the problem is the posting waymarker's first language isn't English.  Another part is that when waymarkers get denials, they are going to read things in the worst possible way.  Another part is that this is a newer waymarker with less than 100 waymarks and my guess is still learning the ropes of the system.   Lastly, we, as reviewers, also have had issues with multiple submissions from denied waymarkers just not getting the reason for the denial.  It's basically a perfect storm of issues.  

I agree that the response was fine, RakeInTheCache, and in fact, I think you went above and beyond offering to assist by private email.  I actually think you did great and get a coveted atta' person!  :) :) :)  

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Posted (edited)

I thought the topic was finished, but ok. Rake, you didn't put anything of the answer that you gave me when I asked you if I could appeal, and that you answered was creating a bad reputation for me (I put this previously) The text previous to your text of reputation was If I can appeal not [sorry, I think...]

I agree with the difficulty of English and understanding, but I do not think it is a problem to drop less than 100 waymarks, since I have been with more than 40 this month for about 15 days, and rejected or not.
I recognized in another forum that I started 4 years ago and I was frustrated with the difficulties that the reviewers put into publishing, and that's why I stopped two years. But now I have taken the trick and the "taste".
Anyway, I would like the reviewers (some do because they are good: Keith, Alfounie, Grahame Cookie) to encourage people, and if something does not correspond to a category do not reply with "Find another category. This doesn't fit here "

 

Anyway if this is a forum of reviewing friends where not all the information is put, please let me know, 

Edited by Ariberna
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Reviewers need to be patient.  Waymarkers need to be patient.  Just remember, reviewers don't make the rules but they have the difficult job of enforcing the rules.

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I understand. Encoiraging, saing things better was a constructive criticism. Sometimes is better said how resubmit a waymark better.

 

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7 hours ago, Ariberna said:

I understand. Encoiraging, saing things better was a constructive criticism. Sometimes is better said how resubmit a waymark better.

 

I completely agree, but do not forget that you did the same with me, i declined your waymarks and wrote the list of things you had to change to be validated, and you submit your waymarks without any changes and no private message, sometimes two or three times. 

Hopefully you finally made changes, but i am not sure i would accept ten submissions without any changes or private message...

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7 hours ago, Ariberna said:

I understand. Encoiraging, saing things better was a constructive criticism. Sometimes is better said how resubmit a waymark better.

 

But sometimes there is just nothing to add. Sometimes a waymark just does not fit a category (maybe even because of a minor detail) and there is no other category that fits better.

Every category has a little bit of vagueness and subjectivity. We cannot avoid that. So sometimes, we can have different views. Then, usually, the officer is right. Constantly arguing over these things and never accepting officer decisions is the best way to become a well-known problem waymarker.

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Alfouine, I said before that I was very happy with your comments and submits. I always obey, but as I said in another thread there are times when the web gives problems. I always change when I receive or send message. But sometimes the message is erased, from what I see, by hitting continue. Others I write in the text of the officers. I don't know if I'm doing it right. For example, you sent me a review of a wikipedia entrie, and it never reached me in the mail. Errors sometimes. Regards.

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1 hour ago, fi67 said:

But sometimes there is just nothing to add. Sometimes a waymark just does not fit a category (maybe even because of a minor detail) and there is no other category that fits better.

Every category has a little bit of vagueness and subjectivity. We cannot avoid that. So sometimes, we can have different views. Then, usually, the officer is right. Constantly arguing over these things and never accepting officer decisions is the best way to become a well-known problem waymarker.

I agree with you, although it rarely doesn't fit something. I was talking about cases in which the reviewer told you that it is better in another category but does not tell you which ones. The times that another category has been proposed to me has been changed and published. If there are many categories ... The important thing is that we all do things well, isn't it?

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1 hour ago, Alfouine said:

I completely agree, but do not forget that you did the same with me, i declined your waymarks and wrote the list of things you had to change to be validated, and you submit your waymarks without any changes and no private message, sometimes two or three times. 

Hopefully you finally made changes, but i am not sure i would accept ten submissions without any changes or private message...

Just to reiterate what I mentioned before, as someone pointed out this is a new waymarker and there is an "undesirable feature" in the Waymarking interface that inadvertantly puts the waymarker and reviewer at odds with each other.  The waymarker tries to justify his submission using the Private message box but changes nothing in the submission so his justification is never communicated to the reviewer and the reviewer assumes that the waymarker is being unreasonably obstinate. 

 

If the waymarker and reviewer don't end up communicating by e-mail the situation degenerates.

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And, speaking of categories. I already said there were many. I guess it depends on the player, some will be interested in many post (and does not care about the quality), and others not. I, it must be because I'm starting, I want different categories. But in the future I do not know, since I have log in many in which the same building or statue can be logged in ten categories or so.

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10 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

there is an "undesirable feature" in the Waymarking interface that inadvertantly puts the waymarker and reviewer at odds with each other.  The waymarker tries to justify his submission using the Private message box but changes nothing in the submission so his justification is never communicated to the reviewer

This is important, Ariberna! Until someone tells you this, you don't know about the problem. We are trying to let others know. 

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13 minutes ago, RakeInTheCache said:

Just to reiterate what I mentioned before, as someone pointed out this is a new waymarker and there is an "undesirable feature" in the Waymarking interface that inadvertantly puts the waymarker and reviewer at odds with each other.  The waymarker tries to justify his submission using the Private message box but changes nothing in the submission so his justification is never communicated to the reviewer and the reviewer assumes that the waymarker is being unreasonably obstinate. 

 

If the waymarker and reviewer don't end up communicating by e-mail the situation degenerates.

Ok Rake, Sometimes I used this box, but I saw that is clear when I continue.

For my part, the problem is settled. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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I want to say that always that revisors declined me a WM, or I make changes or write a message, ALWAYS. I never submit the same without changes, NeVer.

If revisors thinks or said that I don't make changes or write, you must see and check the web, because isn't work good and could be a cause of problems.

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1 hour ago, Ariberna said:

I was talking about cases in which the reviewer told you that it is better in another category but does not tell you which ones.

 

This has happened to me as well, many times, I guess most of us know this situation. When this happens, usually the officers do not really know a better category, they just want you to get out of their queue and try it somewhere else. It's not their problem anymore and with over 1000 categories (that are impossible to know all in every detail), chances are that there indeed is a better one.

 

Most officers try to help, within or outside of their category, but there are exceptions. Some officers are lazy, sometimes you do not have the time for details (long queue and bad internet connection somewhere in the holidays. That was my case last week, sorry for any  inconveniences and exceptional waiting times!). And the categories and their requirements are very different. Some are easy, but boring. Some look interesting, but are too tricky in the details and the fine print to be fun. There are a lot in between that fit your interests and capabilities, concentrate on them and ignore the rest. That's what we all do.

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