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L0ne.R

Group Caching: Where do we draw the line in the sand?

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

No. My beef is with the by-proxy finds and the hypocrisy. 

I'm with you on the video proxy finds. I don't care for leapfrogging or other divide-and-conquer variations of armchair logging either.

 

As for the alleged "hypocrisy", that seems to be based on a distinction that you dismiss, but that others recognize.

13 hours ago, niraD said:

The group that accompanies the climber to the tree has "visited the coordinates"; the group that watches the streaming video has not.

 

Edited by niraD
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42 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

... I actually did attempt it, but couldn't reach it even after climbing.

 

The way I play the game I call that a DNF.  :wacko:

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13 hours ago, niraD said:

If I go to a climbing gym with youth from my church, and spend all my time belaying the youth rather than actually climbing myself, then I have still been an active participant in my church's youth trip to the climbing gym.

 

 You were there and you did participate, in a fashion. But did you actually accomplish what the actual climbers did? If someone asked about your climb to the top,,, would you tell them that you actually made the climb?

 

Imo, this is pretty much the same situation we have with geocaching. Say I watched someone do the work, maybe even held a ladder for them. Sure, I did participate,, but did I really find the cache?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, fendmar said:
46 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

... I actually did attempt it, but couldn't reach it even after climbing.

 

The way I play the game I call that a DNF.  :wacko:

Except for the fact that I could see it, so it was found - and another member of our group DID make the climb and our names are on the logsheet.  If I was to DNF all those caches placed on signs or in trees just out of my reach...

 

That's why I have my TOTT huband along!

3 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Say I watched someone do the work, maybe even held a ladder for them. Sure, I did participate,, but did I really find the cache?

I say yes, especially if I was the one to spot it way up there in the tree and guided the climber to it from the ground.

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Just now, CAVinoGal said:

Except for the fact that I could see it, so it was found - and another member of our group DID make the climb and our names are on the logsheet.  If I was to DNF all those caches placed on signs or in trees just out of my reach...

 

That's why I have my TOTT huband along!

I say yes, especially if I was the one to spot it way up there in the tree and guided the climber to it from the ground.

Whatever works for you. We all clearly play the game and interpret the "rules" differently.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Imo, this is pretty much the same situation we have with geocaching. Say I watched someone do the work, maybe even held a ladder for them. Sure, I did participate,, but did I really find the cache?

 

I was in a few sports when younger.  I don't recall anyone saying those points were mine.  We worked and won as a team.

A team is made up of all, including those who are benched for that one game.

 

 

Edited by cerberus1
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40 minutes ago, niraD said:
1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

No. My beef is with the by-proxy finds and the hypocrisy. 

I'm with you on the video proxy finds. I don't care for leapfrogging or other divide-and-conquer variations of armchair logging either.

 

As for the alleged "hypocrisy", that seems to be based on a distinction that you dismiss, but that others recognize.

14 hours ago, niraD said:

The group that accompanies the climber to the tree has "visited the coordinates"; the group that watches the streaming video has not.

 

 

Regarding "visited the coordinates", I'm in agreement with NYPaddleCacher:

 

Quote

Location is not just two dimensional.  A cache at the base of a tree will have a different terrain than a cache 30 feet up a tree that requires climbing the tree to open the container and sign the log.   Those people standing around at the base of the tree were not "at the location".  Even though they were closer to GZ than those "finding" the cache from their cache, in both cases they're claiming to have found the cache.    Yes, they might have their name in the log book, but unless they went up into the tree they didn't go to location of the cache.  Others may draw the line differently, but to me, claiming a find on a cache when you didn't actually go to GZ is on the wrong side of it.

 

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37 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:
41 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Say I watched someone do the work, maybe even held a ladder for them. Sure, I did participate,, but did I really find the cache?

I say yes, especially if I was the one to spot it way up there in the tree and guided the climber to it from the ground.

 

Then the streaming group gets to log a legitimate find, no? What if the person streaming the video to the group scans the tree with his video camera and someone online calls out "Stop, I see it. It's to your right about 10 feet up near the trunk."  And as the person who climbed the tree comes down the group guides him back down safely? (Let's assume he set up a second camera on a tripod so everyone could watch the climb, and also uses the GoPro on his headstrap.) 

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5 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

Then the streaming group gets to log a legitimate find, no? What if the person streaming the video to the group scans the tree with his video camera and someone online calls out "Stop, I see it. It's to your right about 10 feet up near the trunk."  And as the person who climbed the tree comes down the group guides him back down safely? (Let's assume he set up a second camera on a tripod so everyone could watch the climb, and also uses the GoPro on his headstrap.) 

 

Curious why you still can't recognize the difference between virtual reality, and real life experience...    Please explain.  Thanks.

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7 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:
50 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:
54 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Say I watched someone do the work, maybe even held a ladder for them. Sure, I did participate,, but did I really find the cache?

I say yes, especially if I was the one to spot it way up there in the tree and guided the climber to it from the ground.

 

Then the streaming group gets to log a legitimate find, no?

No, the streaming group does NOT.  Those watching were not physically at the location.  I was there, at the base of the tree, physically and in person.  If I HAD been able to reach the cache, the rest of the group would STILL have claimed the find.  I couldn't reach it, another one of us could, and did.

 

We can argue/discuss this all day long, and in the end we will have to agree to disagree on where to draw the line in the sand.

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So glad I don't have to worry about all this. We never go caching in groups, it's just my wife and I so all finds are our own as are our DNFs.

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1 hour ago, Mudfrog said:

Imo, this is pretty much the same situation we have with geocaching. Say I watched someone do the work, maybe even held a ladder for them. Sure, I did participate,, but did I really find the cache?

 

Right, so you have the choice as to whether you yourself will log the find. But to say that no one else in the group should whose participation was a much/little as you - that's a different issue.

 

 

2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

I agree with bruce0 that it boils down to ...

 

5 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I think everyone can agree it's allowed.  It's very clear from HQ that it is.  The question is on etiquette.

 

 

But you don't seem to agree that virtual finds on a livestream watch party is vastly different than a group at a cache location all logging the find.

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Posted (edited)

Having someone up in a tree toss me the cache container and I sign the log and toss the container back up is no different than me climbing a ladder or using a 25 foot pole with a hook to retrieve the cache. The tool just happens to be a person. I have fulfilled the requirement of arriving at the correct latitude and longitude and signing the log.  

Edited by RocTheCacheBox
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1 minute ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

Having someone up in a tree toss me the cache container and I sign the log and toss the container back up in no different than me climbing a ladder or using a 25 foot pole with a hook to retrieve the cache. The tool just happens to be a person. I have fulfilled the requirement of arriving at the correct latitude and longitude and signing the log.  

 

Yep, I'd do the same.      :)     Thought that was common sense.

If I'm with another that's okay with rope, I'll bring it down and they'll put it back.   Most show with rope because they want to play too.

One of ours, well up on a tree branch has two "regular" containers inside itNot many catching one of those babies.      :D

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1 hour ago, on4bam said:

So glad I don't have to worry about all this. We never go caching in groups, it's just my wife and I so all finds are our own as are our DNFs.

I get the impression that those who actually go group caching don't worry about it at all.

 

It seems to me that the people who worry about it are those who do everything solo, and don't like the fact that group cachers share the work, but then everyone gets the same "credit" as those who did all the work themselves.

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1 hour ago, CAVinoGal said:

No, the streaming group does NOT.  Those watching were not physically at the location.  I was there, at the base of the tree, physically and in person.  If I HAD been able to reach the cache, the rest of the group would STILL have claimed the find.  I couldn't reach it, another one of us could, and did.

 

We can argue/discuss this all day long, and in the end we will have to agree to disagree on where to draw the line in the sand.

I am not trying to antognize you, but I do have to wonder how you came up with this. I am certain those people who live streamed the cache feel just as legitimate as you claiming a 1/5 while standing on the ground and assuming no risk while filling that coveted slot on a grid. What's the difference? I am just trying to understand something that I can't get my head around.

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I guess my question really is, how far from GZ can you be and still legitimately claim a find?

 

;)

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16 minutes ago, fendmar said:

I guess my question really is, how far from GZ can you be and still legitimately claim a find?

As close as possible to the given coordinates of the cache you are going to sign. Allowing for variables such as GPS accuracy, weather conditions, how accurate the given coordinates are etc. 

;)

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Here is a good example. If you were part of a team that climbed Mt. Everest, but didn't actually summit the peak, will you proudly tell your friends and neighbors and proudly display your great accomplishment on your profile page.

 

If I watched a video of people summiting Everest I would not claim that I climbed the mountain.

If I flew to Tibet and sat in the airport while the rest of the team made the climb I would not claim that I climbed the mountain.

If I made it all the way to base camp, I still would not claim that I climbed the mountain.

It seems that many would. I don't get that.

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Another 'discussion' that's taken place in these forums promoted the "you can't find something when you know where it is."  So all those group cachers who 'have' to use WN (because the watched one person find it) can never find that cache because someone has shown them where the cache is.

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2 minutes ago, fendmar said:

Here is a good example. If you were part of a team that climbed Mt. Everest, but didn't actually summit the peak, will you proudly tell your friends and neighbors and proudly display your great accomplishment on your profile page.

 

If I watched a video of people summiting Everest I would not claim that I climbed the mountain.

If I flew to Tibet and sat in the airport while the rest of the team made the climb I would not claim that I climbed the mountain.

If I made it all the way to base camp, I still would not claim that I climbed the mountain.

It seems that many would. I don't get that.

Sorry, climbing is a team/group effort - no one climbs Mt Everest solo - so this is not a good example.

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3 minutes ago, The Jester said:

Sorry, climbing is a team/group effort - no one climbs Mt Everest solo - so this is not a good example.

Everest has been soloed without oxygen no less.

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Well he may have used a little oxygen!  :rolleyes:

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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2020 at 2:16 PM, thebruce0 said:

 

But you don't seem to agree that virtual finds on a livestream watch party is vastly different than a group at a cache location all logging the find.

 

I don't think they are vastly different. They are both by-proxy experiences. They are poor etiquette behaviours and lack legitimacy.

 

Yet in this age of virtual reality, we legitimize one and criticize the other.  

 

There's a thin line between whether someone one is physically there, or virtually there. They are both essentially there, doing the same thing, watching. When I attend a virtual workshop I am actually there and listening, learning, and participating as much as if I were physically there, and I get equal credit to those physically attending. 

 

Of course, there will be those who claim to have been there but actually weren't, both physically and virtually. That happens very often in large group finds (leap-frogging, 3-cache-monte, divide-and-conquer). 

 

I'm not saying we should legitimize the live-streaming finds. I'm saying I'm dismayed that many can't see that there should be no distinction, that by-proxy is not OK whether down physically or virtually. 

Edited by L0ne.R
sentence structure and clarity
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50 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

There's a thin line between whether someone one is physically there, or virtually there.

They are both essentially there, doing the same thing, watching.

 

When I attend a virtual workshop I am actually there and listening, learning, and participating as much as if I were physically there. 

 

 

Of course, there will be those who claim to have been there but actually weren't, both physically and virtually. That happens very often in large group finds (leap-frogging, 3-cache-monte, divide-and-conquer). 

 

I'm not saying we should legitimize the live-streaming finds. I'm saying I'm dismayed that many can't see that there should be no distinction,

that by-proxy is not OK whether down physically or virtually. 

 

When I see those virtual people in a group fake loggin' like that, I'm gonna splat each one with a paint ball.    That'll teach them...  

When you can hand me that 3/8" deep socket virtually, then maybe this will make sense.   :)

Again, this isn't anything new, and something you often refer to.  along with cache maintenance...

 

One has folks physically there, the other doesn't.   There is a difference..   Sheesh...

So if I find a cache and the other 2/3rds doesn't sign the log too, she can't claim it on her other account ?  We're caching together...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, fendmar said:

I am certain those people who live streamed the cache feel just as legitimate as you claiming a 1/5 while standing on the ground and assuming no risk while filling that coveted slot on a grid.

Does it matter whether it's a 1/5 or a 1/1 or a 5/1 or any other D/T combination? Does it matter if I avoid the climb by using a tool, so I don't assume the risk of climbing and keep my feet firmly planted on the ground? Does it matter if I'm logging my cool experience finding a cache with my friends, rather than "filling a grid"?

 

2 hours ago, fendmar said:

I guess my question really is, how far from GZ can you be and still legitimately claim a find?

If I'm in a group, and each of us searches in a different direction from GZ, and the cache is 30ft from GZ, and I searched in the "wrong" direction, then I could have stayed 30ft from the cache until after it was found, and I could have been 60ft from the cache when it was found. That still seems legitimate to me (although I'd rather the group played "Huckle Buckle Beanstalk" style and let me find it myself). And I've found caches much further than 30ft from GZ, and those still seem legitimate too.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Jester said:

Another 'discussion' that's taken place in these forums promoted the "you can't find something when you know where it is."  So all those group cachers who 'have' to use WN (because the watched one person find it) can never find that cache because someone has shown them where the cache is.

That seems like the logical extension of the argument, doesn't it. It makes me wonder whether any of these people have ever been on a group caching trip.

 

 

17 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

One has folks physically there, the other doesn't.   There is a difference..   Sheesh...

Amen!

Edited by niraD
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2 hours ago, fendmar said:

I guess my question really is, how far from GZ can you be and still legitimately claim a find?

 

My personal answer to that is in the quote from my friend/mentor I posted right at the beginning of this thread:

 

Quote

if you don't write your own name in the log book, or weren't in a position where you were able to, please do not claim it as a find.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

My personal answer to that is in the quote from my friend/mentor I posted right at the beginning of this thread:

 

 

Let's take my Everest example. If your friend brought the Everest summit logbook (Don't laugh many summits have logbooks it's really the origin of these type games, but I don't know if Everest has one specifically.) down the mountain to you and you signed the log would you claim you climbed Everest?

Edited by fendmar
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25 minutes ago, niraD said:

Does it matter whether it's a 1/5 or a 1/1 or a 5/1 or any other D/T combination? Does it matter if I avoid the climb by using a tool, so I don't assume the risk of climbing and keep my feet firmly planted on the ground? Does it matter if I'm logging my cool experience finding a cache with my friends, rather than "filling a grid"?

 

If I'm in a group, and each of us searches in a different direction from GZ, and the cache is 30ft from GZ, and I searched in the "wrong" direction, then I could have stayed 30ft from the cache until after it was found, and I could have been 60ft from the cache when it was found. That still seems legitimate to me (although I'd rather the group played "Huckle Buckle Beanstalk" style and let me find it myself). And I've found caches much further than 30ft from GZ, and those still seem legitimate too.

 

 

That seems like the logical extension of the argument, doesn't it. It makes me wonder whether any of these people have ever been on a group caching trip.

 

 

Amen!

So basically you are saying by whatever means necessary. I may be taking this whole Everest thing too far, but there is an example of someone "summitting" Everest in a helicopter. Needless to say the outrage and debates continue to this day about the legitimacy of that claim. Go figure.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, fendmar said:

Let's take my Everest example. If your friend brought the Everest summit logbook (Don't laugh many summits have logbooks it's really the origin of these type games, but I don't know if Everest has one specifically.) down the mountain to you and you signed the log would you claim you climbed Everest?

 

When I log a find, let's say it's a cache up a tree where a friend has handed the logbook down to me to sign, I'm not claiming that I climbed the tree, all I'm claiming in my find log is that I signed the logbook. This is my log from one such cache (GC7J7X8):

 

Quote

Today I joined the merry throng of kayakers venturing out under near perfect conditions for some caching. First stop was this one and, expecting plenty of oyster shells, I dug out an old pair of sports sandals to put on my normally bare feet. Except I didn't count on the deep mud that was trying to suck them off eventually breaking one of the straps so I ended up reaching GZ semi-barefoot anyway.

 

With Orrsome86 doing the tree climbing duties, I waited on terra-not-so-firma with the others, but since my hands were covered in mud I let lee737 write my name in the log for me, along with half of my usual barefoot insignia.

 

On the way back to the kayak, I ended up removing the other sandal as I found it easier to traverse the mud completely barefoot. In hindsight I should've just done that in the first place. Oh well.

 

Where in that log am I claiming I climbed the tree?

Edited by barefootjeff
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9 minutes ago, niraD said:

It makes me wonder whether any of these people have ever been on a group caching trip.

 

Agreed...     We've yet to have to be sure everyone even signed that log in a group.  Usually the first one to find it does it for us. Proxy...

We would if we had to, but there'd be times we'd have to do a NM for "log full" immediately after...     :D

A few times in large groups we've been at GZ when a person already has the cache in hand. 

We stay to at least see where it came from.  Most don't.  That happens sometimes in a group. 

We simply accept that situation, rather than try to alter or control it.     :)

 - If it got bad enough that we felt uncomfortable with logging methods, we'd leave.  And have.

 

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Right there on your profile, where it lists that tree climbing terrain rated cache as found. If I don't read your actual log and see that you didn't actually do the 5 star part I might be put in a situation where I am being misled.

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2 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

When I log a find, let's say it's a cache up a tree where a friend has handed the logbook down to me to sign, I'm not claiming that I climbed the tree, all I'm claiming in my find log is that I signed the logbook. This is my log from one such cache (https://coord.info/GC7J7X8):

Where in that log am I claiming I climbed the tree?

 

When I've climbed with others signing, many logged about the other 2/3rds, when I'm the one in the tree.    :D

Most might say what they did as part of the team,  the experience of friends together n all that jazz, and that's about it.

A few easier, we held mini climbing classes afterwards, with some getting the hang of it enough to do it themselves.

One group had a picnic at GZ afterwards.  Wicker baskets n all...  

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1 minute ago, fendmar said:

Right there on your profile, where it lists that tree climbing terrain rated cache as found. If I don't read your actual log and see that you didn't actually do the 5 star part I might be put in a situation where I am being misled.

 

The 5 star part of that cache relates to the "boat required" aspect of it, which I did, paddling my own kayak out to the island. The tree climb doesn't require special equipment and in itself would likely only rate a T3. Actually the person who climbed the tree was in a tandem kayak. Does that mean he only deserves half a find (a T 2.5)?

 

But all that misses the point. I'm not claiming a "prize" or recognition for an achievement, be that a square on the D/T grid or whatever, because I'm not interested in such statistics. I did that cache to enjoy the day out paddling with a bunch of friends and to be part of the team that achieved the task the CO had set, which was to put our names in her logbook. Signing the logbook is the ultimate goal of any cache search because that's the criterion HQ has set for logging an online find. The tree is an obstacle the CO has put in the way of seekers achieving that, but it's entirely up to the seekers how they choose to overcome that obstacle.

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24 minutes ago, fendmar said:

So basically you are saying by whatever means necessary. I may be taking this whole Everest thing too far, but there is an example of someone "summitting" Everest in a helicopter. Needless to say the outrage and debates continue to this day about the legitimacy of that claim. Go figure.


This actually illustrates the difference quite nicely.  Yes, I’d by outraged if somebody claimed to have climbed Everest but had used a helicopter.  However, had somebody used an innovative method to retrieve a cache, in a way that the CO had not intended, then fair play to them!

 

27 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

When I log a find, let's say it's a cache up a tree where a friend has handed the logbook down to me to sign, I'm not claiming that I climbed the tree, all I'm claiming in my find log is that I signed the logbook.


As Jeff says!  I’d always be up front about what I did or didn’t do.

 

So for that line in the sand: if you signed the log - or you were in attendance when the log was signed on your behalf - then I think you’re on the right side.

 

(That being said, where CO’s have asked that only people that climb the tree, say, claim the find, I will respect their wishes.)

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Posted (edited)

A group meeting to find this cache.  Someone brought the ladder.  Picture of me climbing the ladder.  I did not get off onto the roof of the water tower.  But I was handed the cache to sign the log.  Not everyone climbed the ladder.

Assent.jpg

Edited by Harry Dolphin
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Anybody who wants to answer this can. If I climbed the tree brought the cache down and drove it to your house for you to sign then took it back. Is that a find?

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Just now, fendmar said:

Is that a find?

No, I haven't been to the coordinates.

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1 minute ago, TmdAndGG said:

No, I haven't been to the coordinates.

Technically if someone hands you a cache from up in a tree you haven't been to the coordinates either. We live in 3d.

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Just now, fendmar said:

Technically if someone hands you a cache from up in a tree you haven't been to the coordinates either. We live in 3d.

Yes, but the coordinates that geocaching uses are not.

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1 minute ago, TmdAndGG said:

Yes, but the coordinates that geocaching uses are not.

That seems convenient.

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1 hour ago, fendmar said:

So basically you are saying by whatever means necessary.

I'm saying that geocachers have been using the "Three Musketeers" method of group caching for longer than I've been a geocacher. Nothing either of us does or says is going to make them stop. And high terrain (or difficulty) ratings don't make caches special, and don't change whether the "Three Musketeers" method can be used. 

 

1 hour ago, fendmar said:

I may be taking this whole Everest thing too far, but there is an example of someone "summitting" Everest in a helicopter. Needless to say the outrage and debates continue to this day about the legitimacy of that claim. Go figure.

How is "summit" (the verb) defined?

 

sum·mit /ˈsəmət/ verb: reach the summit of (a mountain or hill)

 

Yep, it sounds like they managed to summit Everest. No, they didn't climb Everest, but they did summit Everest.
 

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1 minute ago, fendmar said:

That seems convenient.

It is;).

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, TmdAndGG said:

It is;).

Great now I gotta' question the legitimacy of summit logs. Thanks y'all.

Edited by fendmar

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10 minutes ago, fendmar said:

Anybody who wants to answer this can. If I climbed the tree brought the cache down and drove it to your house for you to sign then took it back. Is that a find?

That's a pocket cache. No, I wouldn't sign it. As TmdAndGG said, I haven't been to the coordinates.

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1 minute ago, fendmar said:

Great now I gotta' question the legitimacy of summit logs.

You gotta question everything these days:D

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2 minutes ago, TmdAndGG said:

You gotta question everything these days:D

What a sad world that is. Let's hope covid takes care of it!

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52 minutes ago, fendmar said:

Anybody who wants to answer this can. If I climbed the tree brought the cache down and drove it to your house for you to sign then took it back. Is that a find?

 

Now you're creating straw men. Is that really a common occurrence?

 

At its core, caching isn't a competitive sport. All those statistics, D/T grids and leader boards are just side games we're under no obligation to participate in. There's nothing in the caching guidelines that precludes group caching and some caches even encourage it with the "teamwork required" attribute. For the cache I did for my 1000th find milestone (GC5E7A3), I picked one that would be something to remember, a day-long hike with a group of friends through challenging terrain and with some spectacular views along the way. There were four of us in the group and we each contributed in preparation, route-finding, moral support, celebrating the achievement at GZ and getting back to the cars in one piece. The fact that only one of us climbed down onto the clifftop ledge to retrieve the cache takes nothing away from that, it was a group effort and all our logs reflect that. There was no prize; the only reward was the feeling of accomplishment that as a group we'd overcome the obstacles the CO had placed in our way and put our signatures in his logbook. We all did the hike, we all reached GZ and we all signed the log. That, for me, is what caching is about, and that, for me, is what constitutes a "find".

 

Logs.jpg.4dc1b780e68556c3030843169ecbee2d.jpg

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3 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Now you're creating straw men. Is that really a common occurrence?

 

At its core, caching isn't a competitive sport. All those statistics, D/T grids and leader boards are just side games we're under no obligation to participate in. There's nothing in the caching guidelines that precludes group caching and some caches even encourage it with the "teamwork required" attribute. For the cache I did for my 1000th find milestone (GC5E7A3), I picked one that would be something to remember, a day-long hike with a group of friends through challenging terrain and with some spectacular views along the way. There were four of us in the group and we each contributed in preparation, route-finding, moral support, celebrating the achievement at GZ and getting back to the cars in one piece. The fact that only one of us climbed down onto the clifftop ledge to retrieve the cache takes nothing away from that, it was a group effort and all our logs reflect that. There was no prize; the only reward was the feeling of accomplishment that as a group we'd overcome the obstacles the CO had placed in our way and put our signatures in his logbook. We all did the hike, we all reached GZ and we all signed the log. That, for me, is what caching is about, and that, for me, is what constitutes a "find".

 

Logs.jpg.4dc1b780e68556c3030843169ecbee2d.jpg

You should go back and do that cache the right way for such a significant milestone!

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Just now, fendmar said:

You should go back and do that cache the right way for such a significant milestone!

There is no right way.

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