The Form Of A Question

[+kunarion]

I have a few weeks to fine tune my Adventure Lab Cache. Um, I mean I've been putting it off and I need to get started on it before the deadline. I Found one ALC to try it out, and there were “questions” at each point, like “how many benches are here” or “the structure is in the shape of a ____”. All permanent fixtures, perhaps none that you'd see easily online. Questions that are helping to prevent “Armchair Logging”, yet maybe not too boring. I've always just found a “Code Word” when doing this type of thing, but I haven't found an ALC, for example, where there are no obvious “words” to type.

 

My question is about the “questions”. I'm completely stuck on these things.  I'm hoping the helpful answers help others who need inspiration.  Or did everyone else already figured it all out? 

 

I have two plans, which I might combine. I have a walking trail in the woods, and I have a driving tour in town. The walking trail is in a forested area, with no particular anything on the trail. What are some suitable “forest area” questions? I specifically mean the vast areas of non-permanent things along the trail. Such as plants... turtles...

 

I have a driving tour. There are cool historical structures and remnants that will be easily seen in Street View. What are some suitable questions for those special spots? I specifically mean the stuff you can see from the road that shows up online. But OK, I can have people find a place to park and go look around for a tiny imprinted word or something.

 

I don't intend in any case to place a code word at a waypoint. The only physical thing would be a “bonus cache”. ...if I ever get started on this... 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by kunarion

[+elyob]

In the forest, I would focus on the man-made, permanent objects.  What's the name of the company that built this bridge?  What's the second number on this trail marker?  What's the surname of the person mentioned on this sign?

 

The natural elements are ever changing.  Questions concerning the natural stuff will be a challenge.

Edited February 2, 2020 by elyob

[+kunarion]

37 minutes ago, elyob said:

The natural elements are ever changing.  Questions concerning the natural stuff will be a challenge.

 

It sure seems that way!  The spots with historical significance or which have cool stories were reclaimed by nature long ago.  You may expect that this App could allow bringing you anywhere and everywhere, such as the forested place where the homestead was, but it's actually much more restrictive than most any other facet of Geocaching.  Which unfortunately, it must be.  I'm having a hard time getting excited about it.  But maybe you'll pass the old homestead on your way to the trail marker.  

 

Thanks! 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by kunarion

[+Gill & Tony]

If you require the stages to be done in order, try to make your first stage question  hard to brute force.

 

I have already had one probable armchair log on my first stage, whose answer is a very low number.

 

My AL is an historic walk around a local town.  The questions are:

 

How many light fittings are on a wall

What is the post code of the address of the manufacturer of a bbq

What is the surname of a private in a specific place on a cenotaph

A two word answer from a sign beside a court house door

The number of  post office box in a specific location outside a post office.

[+elyob]

For the homestead in the forest, you can still take people there.  Include photos of the site in the lab, confirming that visitors have arrived.  In the lab, post your story about the site.  Include the answer to your question in that story.  Or use a question with an obvious answer that is more general to the adventure lab: What's the name of this park?

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, elyob said:

For the homestead in the forest, you can still take people there.  Include photos of the site in the lab, confirming that visitors have arrived.  In the lab, post your story about the site.  Include the answer to your question in that story.  Or use a question with an obvious answer that is more general to the adventure lab: What's the name of this park?

 

That helps!  If I can use the name of the park, it almost seems like I can use other clues not necessarily found at exactly each point alone.  But I was told otherwise.  When you're stuck, the lack of information makes things tough with that deadline.

[+kunarion]

9 hours ago, Gill & Tony said:

If you require the stages to be done in order, try to make your first stage question  hard to brute force.

 

I have already had one probable armchair log on my first stage, whose answer is a very low number.

 

My AL is an historic walk around a local town.  The questions are:

 

How many light fittings are on a wall

What is the post code of the address of the manufacturer of a bbq

What is the surname of a private in a specific place on a cenotaph

A two word answer from a sign beside a court house door

The number of  post office box in a specific location outside a post office.

 

That's a good idea, have a starting question where you definitely must be there to see the answer.  Of my choices, that looks like a suitable option -- find names and numbers on permanent structures in town.

 

But that's so much like a typical Multi, I don't even need A Separate App.

[+Korichnovui]

I just went live with one in a wilderness area with almost no man-made anything. I stamped codes onto aluminum discs and used loops of wire to fix them to the environment. It was a bit of work but solved the problem for me.

 

Ok “a bit of work” is actually a gross understatement. I also created YouTube spoiler videos to reveal where the discs were hidden, as they had to be out of sight/traffic of muggles.
 

I too had struggled with the concept of “what makes this even slightly different from a multi” and went with the more elaborate design.
 

But Gill and Tony’s advice about really setting up stage 1 is good advice. Just be careful, I’ve been shocked before at what people were able to drum up with a bit of armchair Googling.

[+kunarion]

31 minutes ago, Korichnovui said:

I just went live with one in a wilderness area with almost no man-made anything. I stamped codes onto aluminum discs and used loops of wire to fix them to the environment. It was a bit of work but solved the problem for me.

 

Ok “a bit of work” is actually a gross understatement. I also created YouTube spoiler videos to reveal where the discs were hidden, as they had to be out of sight/traffic of muggles.

 

Sounds good!  That would be great for at least the first stage.  Not in town, but maybe on the forest trail.  A tag's word would be super tough to guess, plus I understand I can change it later.

 

What exactly is the deal with the "Physical Location Check"?  There's not a robust discussion going on around here, and the cache forms are not thorough.  I have many layers of basic questions about Adventure Lab Caches, the answers probably make even more questions. 

 

I wonder if I should go ahead and ask all the questions just to get them out there.  I won't have time left to create a cache.  You can search Threads forever for established cache types, not for this.  And huge issues seem to keep popping up.  I'm still trying to digest the hacked Labs and armchair cachers.  I don't want to contribute to the delinquency for sure.  Do "Lab Caches" seem to anyone like a hacker's paradise and an awkward situation for cache owners?

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by kunarion

[+Max and 99]

I was impressed with the Tucson adventure I did. Some of the questions were just about impossible to answer without being there, and tough even  if you were standing right at GZ. I thought the creator did a great job with questions that couldn't be solved from home. It was a challenge, but we enjoyed it. 

[+baer2006]

4 hours ago, Korichnovui said:

But Gill and Tony’s advice about really setting up stage 1 is good advice. Just be careful, I’ve been shocked before at what people were able to drum up with a bit of armchair Googling.

You're right - one can't imagine what you can find and/or guess via online research. Just about the only really fool-proof method is an own physical stage with an impossible-to-guess code phrase. Like what you did with your stamped aluminum discs. I did something similar with my own ALC (I placed a QR code), which worked perfectly for about three weeks or so. Then some bloke posted the phrase in an FB spoiler group. Cue rampant armchair logging . But it wasn't a big effort to replace the QR code with a different one .

 

4 hours ago, kunarion said:

Do "Lab Caches" seem to anyone like a hacker's paradise and an awkward situation for cache owners?

They could be (and were) literally "hacked" until last spring, because of some weakness in the API. But AFAIK this has been fixed by now, and armchair logging now depends on googleable solutions (which the ALC owner can prevent with some work), and solution sharing in spoiler groups (which nobody can prevent). It's awkward for owners in the sense that they cannot delete logs, even when it's blatantly obvious that the cacher was nowhere near the location. On my own ALC, I wanted to compensate for this by openly calling out the most obvious cheaters in the listing of ALC's bonus cache. However, Groundspeak didn't like this at all...

 

On the plus side, there is the relatively new "Activity log", where cachers can comment on the ALC after completion. This has really improved my experience as an ALC owner, because the non-cheaters usually write a positive comments .

[+Korichnovui]

Well, I just got an email about updates to adventure lab guidelines and physical object placement is no longer allowed for labs, so forget my advice!

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, Korichnovui said:

Well, I just got an email about updates to adventure lab guidelines and physical object placement is no longer allowed for labs, so forget my advice!

 

That simplifies the situation.

[+baer2006]

1 hour ago, Korichnovui said:

Well, I just got an email about updates to adventure lab guidelines and physical object placement is no longer allowed for labs, so forget my advice!

Wow. I hope existing ALCs don't need to be changed .

[+Korichnovui]

Greetings Korichnovui,

Thank you for helping Geocaching HQ experiment with the Adventure Lab platform! With over 1,800 public Adventures worldwide, we’ve made some important changes and updated the guidelines. As we continue to expand the platform, we want to keep you informed.

News:

• New deadline: If your Adventure is not yet live, you have until May 1, 2020 to make it public. Unsure if you still have an Adventure credit? Log into the Adventure Lab Builder. 
• Updated tips: Looking for inspiration? We’ve updated our Tips on how to create an enjoyable Adventure Lab experience. 
• Geofencing changes: Soon we will require a Geofence for each stage of an Adventure. All Adventures without Geofencing will be updated to have the maximum allowable radius.

Guideline updates: 

• Improved instructions: We’ve updated the adventure lab builder guide to include new step-by-step instructions.
• Guideline changes: We’ve updated the Adventure Lab guidelines with these key changes:
  • Physical objects or containers are no longer allowed in the Adventure (bonus caches published on Geocaching.com for completed Adventures are okay).
  • Players must physically visit Adventure locations. 

Note: Adventures that were public before February 10, 2020 are allowed to continue under the previous guidelines but this is subject to change if for example, we receive complaints about a particular Adventure or other issues arise.

We will continue to invest in the platform and we look forward to seeing many more Adventures go live in 2020! For further information, please visit our Help Center.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Korichnovui
remove link to adventure lab builder guide

[+kunarion]

I played a "Difficult" ALC this week.  Took a couple of trips.  Not only was I enlightened by "Questions" and how they may work, I have lots and lots of thoughts now. 

 

At one stage, I tried several words and phrases, and eventually got it by typing an answer from The 'Net (It requires some research), with exactly the right punctuation.  It's great to see how to make a "thinking ALC", more than just "go here, get Smiley".  I don't know what Finders actually hope to do... do they like to "think"?  People seem to avoid my "puzzle caches" where they walk past them on the trail as if they don't even notice them.  Some ALCs may get found a lot, some less, for similar reasons.

 

I have an ALC to place, and it's looking like I won't make it the driving kind.  I had to keep switching between The App and "Google Maps", plus Google itself, PLUS my compass App and then the Official Geocaching App for the bonus cache and then "Satellite View" because the GPS was all over the place.  Google Maps was "routing" me off-road onto walking paths, I don't know how it got that default, I had to change it.  Waze, which I have all set up, and the main App I use for Geocaching by phone, was not listed.  Maybe I can add it.

 

The iPhone 8 was jumping as much as 80 feet in various directions (also about 300 feet off each time I returned to any “compass pointer”.  It wasn't just one App doing that.  When did Phone GPS get that bad?  I'll be sooo glad to get back to Geocaching on my Garmin Oregon.  But I won't like inflicting “Phone Apps” upon other people by making an ALC for them to hunt.  I'm torn. 

 

I don't like switching screens back and forth while hunting an ALC stage.  There's text for the Stage, then text for the “Question”.  I would prefer at least those pages be combined somehow.  The ALC App seems unfinished.  It looks polished at first, but that interface.  No sir, I didn't like it.  I had a tough time with the orange "Stage" icons, trying to figure out exactly where they were in relation to each other, or which one was where on the map.  The last two overlapped, and I could only get info for one.  Maybe by design I can't see any "info" about a Stage until I first find the previous stage in a sequence.  But zooming and scrolling... that wasn't working for me in the ALC App's Map.  Why is that map in a teeny window? 

 

ALC's in general, being entirely phone-based, are quite a chore!  I'm not sure that someone new would know which Apps to use in the variety of ways necessary.  Nor that I could fully explain that within the ALC App.  I have much more work ahead if I'm gonna make an ALC that works great in the one App.

 

A previous "walking trail" ALC was closer to my goal.  It has you walk along and stop at points along the way.  But that one has actual "permanent" things to have verification questions about.  Many other "trails" have just a lot of "forest".  

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by kunarion