Incentives for cache owners?

[+Barnyard Dawg]

Just to clarify, points by themselves mean nothing, neither do the souvenirs.  The thread was asking for thoughts on incentives for cache owners, and my idea to award points to COs for finds on their caches is but one example!  Possible negatives aside, and assuming HQ would be clever enough to guide things by way of terms and conditions (the fine print would be their problem), I would still like to hear about other possible ways HQ could possibly make life as a CO a bit more satisfying/interesting.  I am not asking to be rewarded for cache placements... in fact, together with my family I maintain nearly 100 caches (about 20% of al caches in Malaysia) and and never asked a thing in return.

 

Still, it would be nice if COs could enjoy an exclusive perk... so keep sharing your thoughts!

[+MartyBartfast]

I'm not sure that this is the solution to your problem. I think the basic issue is that there are relatively few active cachers in Malaysia, and whatever rewards/perks are available it remains that cache ownership isn't something for everybody.

 

Cache density will grow naturally as more cache finders come onboard, but it could be a long time, or not at all.

 

Is there any way you could think of to encourage more people to join up?

 

One thought, and I don't know how it might work over there, but how about organising some events? While you can't organise an event with an "agenda" you could probably get a picnic or similar event published, and then take some cache containers as prizes for a raffle, and use them as a basis to start discussions encouraging attendees to go place something.

 

 

[+thebruce0]

10 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

10 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

To stay in the game, we become cache owners, we have no jasmers or fizzy grids to complete because we do not have the numbers, the souvenir side-game is one of the few things we can enjoy (until recently)

 

I understand.  There are certain things you just accept as a fact of life in a cache poor area.  But souvenirs are arbitrarily created by HQ with arbitrary requirements, so maybe HQ could arbitrarily set those requirements a little bit differently so that people in cache poor areas don't miss out on them too

 

Yep. Souvenirs are Groundspeak's thing. HQ doesn't have to follow the same rules that they make for us for listing a challenge cache placement.  Challenge caches are physical containers placed and maintained by users of the website; souvenirs are only automatically granted statistical markers not maintained by anyone.  Challenge caches are very much regionally relevant, souvenirs are globally applied.  I can understand the argument related solely to the fact that a person needs to "accomplish" something for either, so why isn't the spirit of the qualification requirements applied equally in both cases, whether it's a geocacher owner or highest authority of the website. But that cuts out all the context that makes the concepts different from each other, not the least of which is that it's HQ vs their website users.

 

If HQ were themselves putting out challenge caches, that would be a different beast!

But they're tangibly so different that the rules for souvenirs are naturally completely different than challenge caches.

 

Ultimately, HQ also indirectly decides how many people they think 'should' earn any particular souvenir by how difficult they decide the souvenir to be. Some souvenirs it seems they want everyone to have (or at least have the opportunity to have), and some it seems they're willing to tighten up so you really have to work for it (relatively speaking). That's entirely up to them, and they have a better grasp on the global demographic than we do.  Since anyone worldwide could earn a souvenir any time, the rules even just on that point have to be different than challenge caches that are regionally applicable for the very least because the physical container has to be found too.

[+thebruce0]

3 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

I would still like to hear about other possible ways HQ could possibly make life as a CO a bit more satisfying/interesting.

 

That really is a tough question to answer when if there's any personal gain involved it'll be gamed and can detract from the finders' experience and turn back to making it worse for hiders too.

 

If we ask ourselves, what is the most value that owners get out of owning geocaches?  I think the most popular answer would be providing memorable experiences for people.  So how can HQ help cache owner provide better experiences? Or make it easier to provide better experiences?  That would be the best way, I think, to "reward" cache ownership. Not a monetary gain, but rather enable them to do better what it is that adds value to what they do.

[+Team Microdot]

2 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

If we ask ourselves, what is the most value that owners get out of owning geocaches?  I think the most popular answer would be providing memorable experiences for people.

 

I would add to that - reading about those experiences or, in more generic terms, receiving valuable feedback.

 

Without receiving valuable feedback I have no idea what sort of experiences I am 'providing' (remembering of course that experience is entirely subjective and really at most we are making a partial contribution ).

 

 

 

[+niraD]

6 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

I would still like to hear about other possible ways HQ could possibly make life as a CO a bit more satisfying/interesting.

That's different from creating a perk or reward for cache owners.

 

I think there are things that Groundspeak does that discourages owners of exceptional caches. These things should be avoided. For example, the CHS "friendly reminder" email should explicitly tell the CO what to do if the CHS warning is a false positive. The owner of a typical suburban hide may be able to drop by easily just to satisfy the CHS that the cache is still there, but pointless checks are non-trivial for owners of high terrain caches.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

I've read here that providing a 'point' (whatever that may be) for a 'find' on an owned cache might be good enough for whomever wrote that.

 

Well, every one of my cache pages has that metric on it at the top of the logs: number of finds, number of DNF's, etc.

 

So, would we be happy if those numbers were on the Cache Search list, or the 'owned cache' list on a CO's profile, or summarized on the profile page itself?

 

That way, I can pat myself on the back for having, for example 1,234 finds on 50 owned caches.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

2 hours ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

I've read here that providing a 'point' (whatever that may be) for a 'find' on an owned cache might be good enough for whomever wrote that.

 

Well, every one of my cache pages has that metric on it at the top of the logs: number of finds, number of DNF's, etc.

 

So, would we be happy if those numbers were on the Cache Search list, or the 'owned cache' list on a CO's profile, or summarized on the profile page itself?

 

That way, I can pat myself on the back for having, for example 1,234 finds on 50 owned caches.

 

Project GC will show some metrics for your hidden caches, including the number of finds on all your caches and a lot more.  

[+TeamRabbitRun]

Yes, but I don't use Project GC; I'm just a casual cacher. The VAST majority of cachers don't use it, either.

 

If the OP wants these 'points' as an incentive, then MY 'point' is that what he asks for is already there, but in a different place. If the 'point' is to display this 'score' as our 'find count' is displayed, then the data already exists and would only have to be put someplace that matches the intended viewer.

[+dprovan]

17 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

No, the souvenir is just a reward for what is essentially a challenge.  The scale is different, the principle very much the same!

Souvenirs are awarded by the central authority. Challenge caches are created by individual geocachers. The principles are completely different. The only similarity is that they are challenging geocachers in some way.

 

Although I do, in some cases, consider it hypocritical when GS doesn't allow something for challenge caches, but then turns around and uses the same idea for their souviners. Sometimes I don't understand why the arguments they used to forbid them for challenge caches can't be applied just as well to souvenirs.

[+thebruce0]

5 minutes ago, dprovan said:

Sometimes I don't understand why the arguments they used to forbid them for challenge caches can't be applied just as well to souvenirs.

 

Yeah sometimes their reasonings (ones that are unaffected by who authors them) for allowing/denying challenge caches seem inconsistent.

But then I keep coming back to the point that, well, souvenirs are just different things than challenges; and since the challenge cache guidelines don't apply to them (to souvenirs or to HQ), it's not an unfair "exception" to challenge cache guidelines, because souvenirs aren't challenge caches.

It would though be unfair if HQ (or any reviewer) decided to publish a challenge cache somewhere with the same requirements that were denied to another geocacher.  Then, despite obviously granting the 'exception', it would feel blatantly unfair and hypocritical because the listing would be under the same authority (which showed a bias by making a favoured exception).

But anyway...  this is all hypothetical at this point

[+dprovan]

23 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

I did mention the downsides, but you're not willing to recognize them.

That's a little harsh. I assure you, I'm willing to recognize anything. I was looking at the tactical problem of motivating someone to hide a cache that they don't really want to hide. Your downsides are statistical and indirect: souvenirs encourage people to find more caches in general, and then some people finding more caches lose sight of the broader issues and start seeking nothing but numbers. Sometimes they do things like ask for power trails and write briefer logs. The problem with that thinking is that the logical conclusion is that GS shouldn't encourage people to geocache, which is obviously not a reasonable suggestion. Everyone wants geocaching to be popular, so we all want to encourage more geocaching, and GS's business depends on it being popular, so we have to expect GS to encourage it.

 

Furthermore, the resulting negative behavior can mostly be ignored. A TFTC log doesn't make my search for the cache worse, for example. Bad caches affect everyone.

 

23 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

You want good caches?  Motivate the COs in way or another.

I'm not talking about getting more good caches, I'm talking about not motivating people to create bad caches.

 

23 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

And I will happily repeat, I'm not asking for a reward to place a cache!  I am asking for a reward for having it found!

 

 

You get +1 and multiple points for finding a cache, so why would a cache owner not be rewarded at least 1 point (not FP!) for providing you with that cache, at least during challenges?  The suggestion, as I am trying to point out, would help cache owners in low density areas to collect a few extra points.  And again, a cache age and minimum FP requirement would already force a CO to take care of a cache long term, and exclude and discourage throwdowns.  Abuse is only possible if there are no rules and if reviewers fail as watchdog.

I was only contesting the argument about the similarity with finders. Having admitted that there's a difference, I can see your suggested mitigation would help avoid the problems, but I think GS will still be gun-shy about the idea.

[+funkymunkyzone]

As a few have pointed out in this thread, a CO does already get a "point" for every time their cache gets found.  It's one more find count on that cache page, and on sites like Project GC you can see the total number of finds on caches hidden by that CO.  Perhaps what would be nice is if our profile pages here on geocaching.com also showed the total number of find logs our hidden caches have given other geocachers?

 

That (and as a logical extension, showing the number of FPs earned by that cache owner) could be a nice, and subtle, way of rewarding a cache owner, and also showing which cache owners provide the most enjoyment back to their community.  All without creating any new reward system that may or may not have negative effects of encouraging "bad" caches.

[+StopTheWorld]

On 10/23/2018 at 4:57 PM, Team Microdot said:

I find it sad that finding caches seems to be becoming about acquiring a bunch of worthless pixels.

 

If cache placement becomes about that also then I reckon geocaching will have morphed irreparably.

 

 

For those of us in low-density caching areas, we pretty much have a few choices regarding this hobby of ours:

1. After an initial flurry of finding and getting enthusiastic, give up, or at least back right off and do very little geocaching.

2. Go on a lot of holidays to find geocaches.

3. After the initial flurry of finding most caches within sight, become an enthusiastic cache owner, placing caches for others to find, and hope that it will spur some others to become geocachers, and then hopefully cache owners.

4. Get really into "a bunch of worthless pixels". Ie, take an interest in the statistics game, try to attempt some challenges, try to win some souvenirs, play with Project GC and badge gen. Spend the time (that other lucky people would use going for amazing walks) playing with geocaching stuff on the computer, because there aren't any other caches out there for you to find.

 

The nearest unfound cache to me is currently only 29 km (as the crow flies!) from my home location, but it's an hour and a half drive up a dangerous mountain range. I'll pick that one up soon, then we'll be back to 87km (and on an island off an island T4.5) as my nearest. Much as I would dearly love to forget the pixels and be out every weekend *looking* for caches, it just isn't a possibility.

I have done my darnedest to put a lot of really cool caches down, and the guy who started this thread I know well and has been a great encouragement to me (he lives 200km from me). We are trying really hard to inspire some more action in the region and I don't think it could be denied that the two of us have placed some really good caches in some really awesome spots. The future of geocaching in Malaysia (at least in the short term) is actually quite dependent on we two people, the movers and shakers and owners of almost a third of the nation's caches, and we have both opted for #3 and #4 on my list above (though I will admit that until I met Barnyard Dawg, I was firmly in the category of #1, having averaged like 5 cache finds a year since moving to Malaysia!). If you eliminate our own caches, there aren't a lot of caches with 10+ FP to be found for these challenges, even in KL (if I actually was in that city). His point was a very valid one. I think these are the points that need consideration here:
a) in low density areas, it's hard to stay motivated, and we often look outside of the traditional "finding" activities of geocaching to stay interested
b) if you wish caching to grow in such areas, it might be beneficial to give such ground-level geocachers something to inspire them

c) a chance to work at a souvenir is one thing that could help motivate people

d) in low-density areas, we have no chance to gain souvenirs that rely on finding *many* caches, or even some high FP caches

e) in low-density areas, your most enthusiastic players are often owners of multiple caches

f) allowing cache owners to collect points when their caches are found sounds to me like a stellar way to encourage people to place quality caches and maintain them. You could even have a sliding scale based on the quality of the cache (eg. more points for the CO if the cache has >10 FP, or if it is at least a year old, or if a FP is awarded, etc).

 

I don't know how caching gained traction in other countries. Before here, I lived in the north of Australia, and it took off faster than is happening in Malaysia, but nothing like the explosion experienced in USA and Europe. I don't know what factors lead to enthusiastic uptake, but I do know that lower incomes in south-east Asia play a part in the slow uptake. We have very low participation in premium membership, due to the extremely high cost in relation to income, and a lot of people give up very early due to the limitaitons of the official app for basic players, then reluctance to spend money on travel also plays a smaller part. I would have thought, however, that encouraging growth in areas that are just starting to take off, would be a priority. It certainly seems that tourists and visitors appreciate the caches that we who live here place and maintain (might I say, to a pretty high standard, thanks in no small part to the encouragement again of the protagonist of this thread).
Hzoi, I'm really not so much placing caches to pay-back others. Until very recently, there was nobody within 200km to "pay back"- I was the only CO and we were the only cachers in the srea. I started in the hope of inspiring either locals to start caching, or visitors at least to come to Ipoh. In that regard, I feel somewhat like an ambassador or something, and I guess I feel it would be nice if Groundspeak (as the major beneficiary of all geocaching activity, and the most influential organisation) might try to understand the difficulties in trying to start off in a new area, and/or do something to encourage those of us who have less support than others. We have a tendency (in our isolation) to feel abandoned and unappreciated, which is not so much fed by the knowledge that we are alone and unappreciated, but by the fact that we get a constant stream all about how awesome everybody is on the other side of the globe.

[+Team Microdot]

50 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

f) allowing cache owners to collect points when their caches are found sounds to me like a stellar way to encourage people to place quality caches and maintain them. You could even have a sliding scale based on the quality of the cache (eg. more points for the CO if the cache has >10 FP, or if it is at least a year old, or if a FP is awarded, etc).

 

50 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

I don't know what factors lead to enthusiastic uptake, but I do know that lower incomes in south-east Asia play a part in the slow uptake. We have very low participation in premium membership, due to the extremely high cost in relation to income, and a lot of people give up very early due to the limitaitons of the official app for basic players, then reluctance to spend money on travel also plays a smaller part. I would have thought, however, that encouraging growth in areas that are just starting to take off, would be a priority. It certainly seems that tourists and visitors appreciate the caches that we who live here place and maintain (might I say, to a pretty high standard, thanks in no small part to the encouragement again of the protagonist of this thread).

 

50 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

I feel somewhat like an ambassador or something, and I guess I feel it would be nice if Groundspeak (as the major beneficiary of all geocaching activity, and the most influential organisation) might try to understand the difficulties in trying to start off in a new area, and/or do something to encourage those of us who have less support than others. We have a tendency (in our isolation) to feel abandoned and unappreciated, which is not so much fed by the knowledge that we are alone and unappreciated, but by the fact that we get a constant stream all about how awesome everybody is on the other side of the globe.

 

Putting these things together, it's pretty obvious that a bunch of pixels on your profile isn't going to achieve your objectives.

 

And I doubt Groundspeak is going to do anything about low incomes or reluctance to spend money in south-east Asia.

 

ETA - the system you describe would be gamed. It would not guarantee 'high quality' caches.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Team Microdot
addition

[+LaNympheEtLeVoleur]

As you stated in your last post, I think that geocaching activity in emerging countries doesn't depend on geocaching rules but economic factors. Excepting very fews countries - eastern europe, principally - the geocaching rate is directly related to the middle class existence. I don't know very much Malaisian situation but Asian countries seem to me lower geocaching addicts at equivalent economic situation, an another barrier could be linguistic, marketing or cultural factors. I know that an equivalent of Geocaching in France ("Sur la piste des Ciste") knew a little buzz in Japan with a TV show exposition... Perhaps the ways to promote Geocaching are less the rules than other conventionnal methods (groups, associations, initiations, communication...) in the countries where the game could reasonnably set up.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

23 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

Is there any way you could think of to encourage more people to join up?

 

Yes, I believe I have mentioned it.  GS should open up the app, so new players would not be frustrated by their paywall.  No point putting out caches to attract new players, if then the listings can't be seen.  The US and EU had time to grow, while over here we struggle with nothing but limitations.

 

23 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

One thought, and I don't know how it might work over there, but how about organising some events? While you can't organise an event with an "agenda" you could probably get a picnic or similar event published, and then take some cache containers as prizes for a raffle, and use them as a basis to start discussions encouraging attendees to go place something.

I have attended my 50th event recently!  And I can say I have given out plenty geocaching goodies for years at my own expense.  I even had an article published in a nationwide newspaper.  One of the problems with events is that new players do not pick up on these... push notifications via mail or app might make a difference.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

And I doubt Groundspeak is going to do anything about low incomes or reluctance to spend money in south-east Asia.

 

They can help us at near zero cost!  Geocaching is a GPS game, open up the dadgum app for certain geographic locations so that the caches we put out can actually be found.  The best way to promote the game is to show good caches in great places, but those caches are tucked away behind the 1.5/1.5 barrier.  Why?  As mentioned, I can count the geocachers here on my two hands with fingers to spare... of those few are premium, so they are not making anything worth mentioning anyway... if the idea is to build up the game to attract new players, why do we need to do this with one arm behind our back?  From the 500 caches we have 250 are invisible!  Why would be bother placing more caches?  I say, help us help you!

[+Team Microdot]

1 minute ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

They can help us at near zero cost!  Geocaching is a GPS game, open up the dadgum app for certain geographic locations so that the caches we put out can actually be found.  The best way to promote the game is to show good caches in great places, but those caches are tucked away behind the 1.5/1.5 barrier.  Why?  As mentioned, I can count the geocachers here on my two hands with fingers to spare... of those few are premium, so they are not making anything worth mentioning anyway... if the idea is to build up the game to attract new players, why do we need to do this with one arm behind our back?  From the 500 caches we have 250 are invisible!  Why would be bother placing more caches?  I say, help us help you! 

 

Lower the DT ratings.

 

Problem solved.

[+MartyBartfast]

1 minute ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

They can help us at near zero cost!  Geocaching is a GPS game, open up the dadgum app for certain geographic locations so that the caches we put out can actually be found.

 

I think that's a pretty good idea,  have you tried approaching Groundspeak directly about it? it might be something that Marketing could be interested in, though I doubt they'd do it on a permanent basis they might consider doing it for a limited period as part of some campaign.

[+MartyBartfast]

2 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Lower the DT ratings.

 

Problem solved.

But then you get a raft of different problems, where caches half way up a mountain side are listed as T1.5, not a very good solution.

[+Team Microdot]

13 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

17 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Lower the DT ratings.

 

Problem solved.

But then you get a raft of different problems, where caches half way up a mountain side are listed as T1.5, not a very good solution.

 

Probably considerably cheaper than re-jigging the app for what will likely be little to no return.

 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

3 hours ago, StopTheWorld said:

I feel somewhat like an ambassador or something, and I guess I feel it would be nice if Groundspeak (as the major beneficiary of all geocaching activity, and the most influential organisation) might try to understand the difficulties in trying to start off in a new area, and/or do something to encourage those of us who have less support than others. We have a tendency (in our isolation) to feel abandoned and unappreciated, which is not so much fed by the knowledge that we are alone and unappreciated, but by the fact that we get a constant stream all about how awesome everybody is on the other side of the globe.

 

Indeed, GS drops the ball when it comes to support.  The odd gesture, a sign of appreciation, would go a long way!

I have to agree that the good news show on all the activities and great caches everywhere often feels like rubbing it in.  And in fact, the debacle with the virtual rewards is a good example here... they keep raving about the new virtuals, yes... cool, let's go get some!  But oh wait... we got two (2!!!) new virtuals for entire Southeast Asia!  The algorithm successfully excluded us!  What to do?  Distribute the non published ones to places that lost out completely!

A few months later, we received or country souvenir (lobbied for and eventually awarded because of the significant growth of the game we managed to accomplish, that is to say amount of caches placed, not new players) and what did they do?  When they announced it on their blog, which comes with a few local cache mentionings, they picked showcase caches that had been mentioned 2-3 times before over the years, ...all owned by outsiders!  Not a single local player was given an honorable mention!  Nicely done!!!

And they do this time and time again!  It's not rocket science, HQ can do more, HQ can do better!  Just paying attention to what goes on on the ground would help a lot!

If you ask me, how can they help?  Well now, ideally geocaching Asia would have its own HQ!


Successfully went off-topic again with my rant.  Darn!

[+Barnyard Dawg]

30 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Lower the DT ratings.

 

Problem solved.

 

Patchwork and a bad idea.  It would cause other problems and only mess things up.

It took us 2 years to clean up the scene!  Reduced the number of premium caches from 150 to less than 10 (an issue I had not even mentioned yet), cleaned up dozens of zombie caches, upgrade existing ones, ...and I can honestly say we probably have one of the best maintained scenes in the world, and the ratings from visitors reflect this!  To downgrade it by fooling around with DT rating and all that would not help a bit.

[+StopTheWorld]

2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Putting these things together, it's pretty obvious that a bunch of pixels on your profile isn't going to achieve your objectives.

 

My objective is to have fun. Of course a bunch of pixels can achieve that! I'm confused as to what you think *my* objectives are? 50% of *my* geocaching fun these days is related to stuff I do on the computer (for me, it's often searching out challenges that I might be able to complete, in particular ones where I stand a remote chance of finsing the cache and signing the log at some stage in the future while back in Australia on holiday, OR looking at the badges I've earned, D?T chart etc and working out how I could maybe at some time in the future add to it, working out a way to earn a souvenir without having to blow a month's salary for a week in Singapore etc). 45% is cache ownership, trying to improve CO stats, place a cache that earns the respect and admiration of the couple of other COs in Malaysia and maybe a few FP from visiting foreigners. Once again, pixels are sort of important, but a different sort.

 

I think you've sort of missed the point of my argument, though, which I think is the same as the initiator of the thread. *I* think it would be nice if owning some awesome caches (even if they are not awesome enough to earn one of the coveted "virtual rewards")  could at least earn me some points towards a souvenir. It would be some sort of compensation for the fact that when you own 25% of the caches within driving distance (500km) of your home, you are not in a position to go finding too many. It would also be some sort of affirmation from HQ that they give a dadgum about COs. My personal experience is that, even in cache-rich countries, enthusiastic COs (ones that have many caches, awesomely created caches, or really well maintained caches) don't spend as much time looking for caches, as they spend a lot of their time *maintaining* and creating fun stuff for others to go and find. They might like to be part of the souvenir hunt while still being awesome COs. Without having to abandon cache maintenance for a month while they race around trying to log 100 finds to get their World Turtle. Also, giving some sort of acknowledgement for cache owners with the souvenir hunt may actually change the perception (that some have) that HQ have little regard for COs and only want to encourage the *finding* of caches. Just sayin'.

 

2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

 

 

We don't expect HQ to do anything about that, but if they wanted to grow the game here, they might consider that there are currency conversion issues in countries other than the EU. Obviously, they don't want to grow the game. I've never used their app, but I have met sooo many people who gave up geocaching because they thought the official app (with its restrictions) was the only option unless they forked out 5-10% of their monthly income to become premium. It's depressing for those of us who are trying to nuild the game up.

2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

 

ETA - the system you describe would be gamed. It would not guarantee 'high quality' caches.

 

Nothing ensures high quality caches. But I can tell you from personal experience that support and encouragement would be the number one contributor towards higher cache quality. Barnyard Dawg single-handedly encouraged me to aspire to bigger and greater things, and the proof is in the pudding. I went from mundane gum tins in trees that are nowhere, to some caches with nearly 100% FP rate, just by being challenged and encouraged. Want caches with wet logs and ants in drop gum tins under a rock by the gutter? I know the formula on how to achieve that: give no acknowledgement to the vast majority of cache owners, don't encourage thoughtful or clever cache hiding, don't reward excellent cache maintenance. Set regular souvenir challenges, but make them all about *finding* caches, and lots of them. Make sure everyone knows that finding lots of caches is the important thing. Never refer to someone's karma rating. Don't complain when someone drops "TFTC" on 40 of your caches in one day. The outcome? Bored cache owners who hide and maintain in accordance with their boredom. You want less bored, then give us something to excite us. FP are a start, and probably work quite well in some places, but in a country where we are trying to get started and most can't afford premium membership, they aren't a great measure of success. HQ ignoring us *because* we don't have many premium members would sort of make it look like they are only interested in $$$ above all else, and the 150 or so countries with insignificant numbers of caches don't matter to them. No, we don't hide caches for acknowledgement, accolades or a pat on the back from HQ, but I think the game would be a better one (here in Asia, at least) if we changed the perception of cache ownership.
 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

17 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Probably considerably cheaper than re-jigging the app for what will likely be little to no return.

 

 

Geocaching is a location based game, tweaking the app to open up the game in specific countries would be a small effort by any corporate standard!  It makes sense that, if they want us to make the game grow, that they give us all the tools we need, right now they effectively cripple our efforts!

[+StopTheWorld]

28 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Probably considerably cheaper than re-jigging the app for what will likely be little to no return.

 

Make all caches 1.5/ 1.5???   You're not serious??? WTF???

Edited October 25, 2018 by StopTheWorld

[+Team Microdot]

7 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

28 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Probably considerably cheaper than re-jigging the app for what will likely be little to no return.

 

You're not serious??? WTF???

 

Completely serious.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

7 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Completely serious.

 

I agree.  You must be trolling us now.

 

Sorry to say, but if this is a serious response, it sounds very like you're part of the problem, not the solution.

[+L0ne.R]

3 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

Patchwork and a bad idea.  It would cause other problems and only mess things up.

It took us 2 years to clean up the scene!  Reduced the number of premium caches from 150 to less than 10 (an issue I had not even mentioned yet), cleaned up dozens of zombie caches, upgrade existing ones, ...and I can honestly say we probably have one of the best maintained scenes in the world, and the ratings from visitors reflect this!  To downgrade it by fooling around with DT rating and all that would not help a bit.

 

The game seems to attract middle income, middle age, white people. Looking at your’s and Stop’s profiles you both appear to fit the typical profile.  At your events are those who attend mostly caucasians?  When the game was in its infancy the people attending events in my area, which is quite multi-ethnic, fit the profile and that profile has never changed in 18+ years. If that’s the case in Asia, the culture and population may not sync with geocaching. 

[+Team Microdot]

Just now, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

I agree.  You must be trolling us now.

 

Sorry to say, but if this is a serious response, it sounds very like you're part of the problem, not the solution. 

 

Not even slightly.

 

In most settings, in my admittedly limited experience, the caches which get found by the greatest number of people are easy to get to.

 

That's something you could try which has some chance of attracting attention and igniting interest.

 

Simple.

[+MartyBartfast]

1 minute ago, L0ne.R said:

The game seems to attract middle income, middle age, white people.

Yep, that's me and most of the cachers I know too.

[+StopTheWorld]

48 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Lower the DT ratings.

 

Problem solved.

You don't happen to work in HQ, by any chance? We could just archive the lot of the caches in Malaysia, that would solve the problem too. And I imagine remove a large thorn from the side of GS HQ. Having said that, Malaysia is one of three countries in Asia with a rapidly expanding middle-class and might, if business was handled correctly, be a valuable new market for many businesses, including Groundspeak. It also has a high percentage of English speakers. But as Barnyard Dawg mentioned, countries that are jumping in now are too late. When I joined (in Australia) in 2006, it was easy to be a basic member. We were all muddling along together back then, and being premium was "icing on the cake" rather than the flour, eggs and butter. had Malaysia jumped in then, it would have been easy, but we weren't ready then. Neither was China or India, but I suspect they are now.

I guess GS need to decide how their business model works. To grow the game in new areas, they would need to devote some time and thought into how geocaching has changed since it took off in USA and Europe. If they thought it was desirable or if there was any point to be interested in these markets. The overriding philosophical question might be, "By fighting hard and winning the war to have the almost exclusive website used for geocaching, do they have any moral obligation to (those playing) the game?" I'm one for "all's fair in love and business" but it does seem a shame for what might have been a global game ...
 

[+Team Microdot]

1 minute ago, StopTheWorld said:

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

 

Lower the DT ratings.

 

Problem solved.

You don't happen to work in HQ, by any chance?

 

No.

 

I live and work in an extremely cache dense area which became so WAY before souvenirs were ever a thing.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

4 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

 

The game seems to attract middle income, middle age, white people. Looking at your’s and Stop’s profiles you both appear to fit the typical profile.  At your events are those who attend mostly caucasians?  When the game was in its infancy the people attending events in my area, which is quite multi-ethnic, fit the profile and that profile has never changed in 18+ years. If that’s the case in Asia, the culture and population may not sync with geocaching. 

 

If you don't mind me saying so, that is actually a very snobby remark.

I would argue the opposite!  There is no way you can convince me that only, almost literally, a handful of billions of people could be bothered to check out the game.  Geocaching is not in synch with Asia, South America, Asia, ...let's just say, most of the world.  Supports my suggestion that HQ would do well by giving each continent their own HQ and local staff.  Proof that they do not care... 1 reviewer and 1 Earthcache reviewer for Southeast Asia and far beyond!  Bare minimum attention is given, and likely only because they have to (else it stops being a global game).

 

 

[+StopTheWorld]

8 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

 

The game seems to attract middle income, middle age, white people. Looking at your’s and Stop’s profiles you both appear to fit the typical profile.  At your events are those who attend mostly caucasians?  When the game was in its infancy the people attending events in my area, which is quite multi-ethnic, fit the profile and that profile has never changed in 18+ years. If that’s the case in Asia, the culture and population may not sync with geocaching. 

 

No they are not. It's just that the two of us happen to work for ourselves and as such, are the two who can wangle the time to contribute to threads such as this. Also, we are both comfortable with English. The other cachers in our country, at least, are a mixture. Yes, there is a definite appeal to Europeans and we do see a lot of them joining the caching scene here, come and go, but we also have a bunch of those born and bred in Malaysia, the majority I would say ...

[+Barnyard Dawg]

7 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I live and work in an extremely cache dense area which became so WAY before souvenirs were ever a thing.

 

That explains everything.  Ignorance is a big problem when trying to discuss specific issues such as cache density, lack of players, ... it often escalates a discussion and difference of opinion to a full blown argument.  You're not helping.

[+Team Microdot]

1 minute ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

13 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I live and work in an extremely cache dense area which became so WAY before souvenirs were ever a thing.

 

That explains everything.  Ignorance is a big problem when trying to discuss specific issues such as cache density, lack of players, ... it often escalates a discussion and difference of opinion to a full blown argument.  You're not helping.

 

I'm not sure what it explains other than I've experienced first hand the sorts of things that drive uptake - and it isn't awarding souvenirs or the means to acquire them to the only two CO's in a large geographical area who have run out of caches to find.

 

Do you know what kind of help is required? What would actually make a real impact in the direction you'd like it to?

 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

4 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

I'm not sure what it explains

 

 

That much we can agree on.

 

4 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

I've experienced first hand the sorts of things that drive uptake

 

Switching all DT rating to 1.5/1.5 ???  Brilliant contribution!
You've lost all credibility with that... please stop!

 

6 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Do you know what kind of help is required? What would actually make a real impact in the direction you'd like it to?
 

A few suggestions have been made.. scroll up, or better yet, start reading from the top.  What we need is for HQ to do something that works for CO, and that helps us promote the game in the best way possible.  What that would be?  Well now, that's what this thread is about isn't it?
 

 

12 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Do you know what kind of help is required? What would actually make a real impact in the direction you'd like it to?

 

 

Not the kind of help you are suggesting!  A real and immediate impact in the right direction would be you, logging off from this forum.

[+Team Microdot]

1 minute ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

That much we can agree on.

 

 

Switching all DT rating to 1.5/1.5 ???  Brilliant contribution!
You've lost all credibility with that... please stop!

 

A few suggestions have been made.. scroll up, or better yet, start reading from the top.  What we need is for HQ to do something that works for CO, and that helps us promote the game in the best way possible.  What that would be?  Well now, that's what this thread is about isn't it?
 

 

 

Not the kind of help you are suggesting!  A real and immediate impact in the right direction would be you, logging off from this forum.

 

I've been here from the start of the thread.

 

I've read the entire, extensive tome.

 

1.5/1.5 caches generate interest - fact. I realise it doesn't fit with your plans that Groundpeak should invest money to provide the two of you with your own HQ while making geocaching completely free to all but that doesn't change the facts.

 

Good luck in persuading them though ☺️

[+StopTheWorld]

9 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

No.

 

I live and work in an extremely cache dense area which became so WAY before souvenirs were ever a thing.

I'll make a deal with you then. Stop broadcasting about these souvenirs that you are all getting over there in your amazing, wonderful, cache-dense area. Ask HQ to stop sending me emails begging me to take part in something that is way beyond what I can handle. Don't tell me about people way more awesome than me who were "allowed" to list a virtual cache because of their awesomeness, and DO NOT post anywhere on the internet how there are way too many virtuals in your neighbourhood now. I might live in Asia, but I have internet and I do not live in a bubble. I can see where the grass is much, much greener.

 

Yes, I lived through the early years of growth of geocaching in Australia, too. Things have changed, and now geocaching is really big in like, how many, um maybe 30 or 40 countries. It's thrilling for me to see a few Eastern European countries catch up, but most of the other 160 or so have been left behind, and the game has changed so much, I doubt they can ever cover that ground. That's a topic for itself, but I see people like you jumping to the conclusion that it's just because we are poor in Asia, or it's just not for Asian people. But have you considered, if a new geocacher could actually see how many caches there actually are, how more excited they might be? How much harder it is for new COs, now they are competing for FP, and now the review process is so complicated and subjective (we are blessed in Asia in this regard). Building a caching community from nothing is not as easy as it once was, and I suspect that even low-density areas in countries where caching is popular might find this too? Also, now that GS has pretty much grabbed ownership of geocaching, they also shoulder to a large extent the responsibility for where the game goes, and this changes the equation too.

 

Don't you get it? My geocaching experience, my whole experience of life, is different to yours. Geocaching is different where there's not a lot of caches. It's not my fault, it's nothing I did wrong, it just is. I can accept that, but I do get really fed up with the US-centric view and attitudes like "just make all the ratings 1.5, get rid of all your fun and challenging caches, don't expect US to change for YOU". Frankly, it is rude, really rude. Especially as the people finding our caches are, largely, American and European tourists. I know as a tourist, I appreciate caches people have put in the countries I visit, even more than I appreciate those in my back yard, and I know the people who visit my caches appreciate them. The two Malaysia COs in this conversation "own" around a quarter of the caches in the entire country, including some of the most favourited and many of the most visited caches in the country. We're telling you that we sometimes feel a need for a little bit more inspiration, some more fun in the game (other than heading our nearly every weekend to fix up a cache or replace a log book), to be more included in all the promos that swamp our inbox, and your response is, "screw around with the D/T because anything else would be waaaay too much bother for us in the USA"? Having had my rant, I am now speechless. there is no answer to that.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

37 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

 

The game seems to attract middle income, middle age, white people. Looking at your’s and Stop’s profiles you both appear to fit the typical profile.  At your events are those who attend mostly caucasians?  When the game was in its infancy the people attending events in my area, which is quite multi-ethnic, fit the profile and that profile has never changed in 18+ years. If that’s the case in Asia, the culture and population may not sync with geocaching. 

 

That only appears to be the case because the game is heavily supported in the US and EU, nowehere else in the world.  Because Geocaching is an established game in the US/EU, it often turns into an export product supported by expats.  This effect you can see in every country... the top player rarely is a local, but often from the US, Canada, Germany, UK, ... that does not mean there is zero interest from local players!

The problem is that these players almost immediately get slapped with a request for $.  The problem is that few stick around long enough to get noticed by the community, they also do tend to notice the events.  The events, of course ideal to show them caches beyond 1.5/1.5 ... those that do show up often get exited by the better caches and do tend to stick around, proving the app is a pain regardless how you turn it.


That said, the OP was asking how cache ownership could be made more interesting.  Most seem to be against it, which is odd, because at the same time seekers enjoy many perks and do not have to do anything for it.

[+StopTheWorld]

9 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

1.5/1.5 caches generate interest - fact. I realise it doesn't fit with your plans that Groundpeak should invest money to provide the two of you with your own HQ while making geocaching completely free to all but that doesn't change the facts.☺️

 

Actually, I haven't found many/ most of his caches. He lives in the same country, but even in our tiny country, that can be a long way away. I doubt his caches are even near the top of my "found" stats, and to be honest, the highest cache density in Malaysia (KL) is just a bit too far for me to head off there every weekend to cover all the caches. While airing our opinions from the same country, we are speaking from very different caching experiences in two very different but cache-poor areas.

 

We do have a couple more COs in Malaysia, but of course, the two of us try to dominate and force everybody else out because we hate anyone else getting in on our game. Seriously ... I have to agree, your contributions aren't helpful. You are speaking from your own "experience" of seeing an area grow up in the early years of caching, to become a cache-dense area. No doubt you experience challenges that I couldn't even dream of, but I find it offensive that you assume you know what is required to build up an area in 2018, and that I don't. Caching is nothing like it was in 2006 and being in a growth area has different challenges.

 

It's lucky there aren't more people like you, because there would be no geocaches at all for you to find on your Asian holiday. Oh, that's right, of course, there would be the zombie caches left by some tourist 10 years ago, long gone and now a regularly-cycling ziplok with a soggy receipt for a log book. You're welcome.

[+Team Microdot]

Well, it's been fun but I have better things to do with my time than this, like rearranging my sock drawer.

 

Good luck everyone! ?

[+Barnyard Dawg]

20 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

1.5/1.5 caches generate interest - fact. I realise it doesn't fit with your plans that Groundpeak should invest money to provide the two of you with your own HQ while making geocaching completely free to all but that doesn't change the facts.

 

Good luck in persuading them though ☺️

 

Very narrow minded!  Again, ignorance appears to be bliss!  There two of us here in this forum,  and you conclude that's it?  Reality check, the potential market outside the US and EU is much larger than both combined!  For HQ to ignore it makes no sense (unless it is intentional?), and from a business perspective they should actually focus their attention where it is needed, highly desired and where it would still be appreciated!

 

How would unlocking the app for specific countries cost them money?

1) There are barely premium players here, the income from that is neglectable.
2) Unlocking the game would make sense if the idea is to attract new players with great caches and positive cache experience.
3) If growth takes place, and new players enter the game, they stand to gain from now premium subscriptions.

I see no losers here.  With entire continents untapped, the return would eventually far outweigh the cost to tweak some code.  The investment of resources is minimal, that programmer would be on the payroll anyway, and if she or he is any good, the change can be made in less than a day.

It's called marketing strategy!

Right now, the game is pretty much on lockdown.  Premium is no longer a perk but a requirement.  And even then, many aspects of the game are missing!   We have 500 caches, but only about 250 visible, spread over 127,724 sq mi !!!  They never had to deal with this nonsense in the US/EU where the game was allowed to grow freely and where it is still heavily supported today.  We lack all of that support, and we're expected to make a crippled game grow... tell me how that makes sense???

[+Team Microdot]

4 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

Very narrow minded!  Again, ignorance appears to be bliss!

 

I think you've demonstrated that the opposite is true.

 

I'm out.

 

Again - good luck persuading Groundspeak with these compelling arguments ?

[+JL_HSTRE]

15 hours ago, dprovan said:

I was looking at the tactical problem of motivating someone to hide a cache that they don't really want to hide.

 

Then they shouldn't hide it.

 

In much of the US the problem isn't quantity, but quality.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Favorite points already encourage quality hides.

 

What else can encourage/reward COs with rewarding sheer quantity? Good cache logs. 

 

How do we reward good logs? Word count wont work. Nonsense will be posted - copy/paste or via GSAK - to meet whatever arbitrary count requirement is set. What about a Favorite Points system for logs? This rewards people who write good logs, encouraging others to write good logs, which rewards COs with better logs.

 

I would also get rid of mass logging, but that's not really possible unless the feature is removed from the API.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

10 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Favorite points already encourage quality hides.

 

What else can encourage/reward COs with rewarding sheer quantity? Good cache logs. 

 

How do we reward good logs? Word count wont work. Nonsense will be posted - copy/paste or via GSAK - to meet whatever arbitrary count requirement is set. What about a Favorite Points system for logs? This rewards people who write good logs, encouraging others to write good logs, which rewards COs with better logs.

 

I would also get rid of mass logging, but that's not really possible unless the feature is removed from the API.

 

It is not FP we seek, they promote a COs cache, but double up as an indicator for seeker's, who uses the FP rating most, it sure will not be the COs.

 

Yes, someone mentioned rating logs earlier!  Being able to upvote a log, might help, being able to select a "best log" to represent a cache even more!  I agree word count won't work, HOWEVER, I minimum requirement of 25-50 words would kill the dreaded "TFTC" take-all-leave nothing style of logs.  Mass logging, I agree, is a pain, if someone finds 30 of my caches, I get 30 identical logs... it encourages lazy logging at best.

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2018/05/faq-log-upvotes/

 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

A quick fix to stimulate cache placement with existing COs, would be of course a new cache type.  Something that is kept in check by dedicated reviewers, much like EarthCaches, like a Biology Cache or History Cache for example.  It is sad everything has to fit under generic cache types.