Incentives for cache owners?

[+L0ne.R]

4 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

If you don't mind me saying so, that is actually a very snobby remark.

 

I mean no disrespect. My comments are based on observation -- photos of events worldwide, my multi-ethnic area, people who participate in the forums, etc. 

I'm trying to help figure out why geocaching hasn't caught on where you are. I'm not convinced that souvenirs will result in an uptick of local geocachers in your area. 

 

More local advertising with photos local people can relate to might help. In North America geocaching.com typically uses young models for their advertising. Usually  20-year-olds. Here's a recent blog photo:

 

But still, the typical geocacher fits the middle-aged, middle-income profile. 

 

What I'm seeing in your area is good activity in tourist-centric cities. Not much activity beyond the cities. And frankly, I'm seeing a lot of white faces in the photo galleries, so I suspect a lot of the activity is tourist-centric. I think tourists would like souvenirs that commemorate their visit. Do your Asian geocaching friends say that they would play more, or they think locals would be interested in geocaching if there was more emphasis on souvenirs? 

Edited October 25, 2018 by L0ne.R
Found a good photo to represent the typical geocacher

[+Barnyard Dawg]

3 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

What I'm seeing in your area is good activity in tourist-centric cities. Not much activity beyond the cities. And frankly, I'm seeing a lot of white faces in the photo galleries, so I suspect a lot of the activity is tourist-centric. I think tourists would like souvenirs that commemorate their visit. Do your Asian geocaching friends say that they would play more, or they think locals would be interested in geocaching if there was more emphasis on souvenirs? 

 

The example I gave, to allow COs to collect points to help them meet souvenir requirements was but one suggestion to help COs who own plenty cache, but have few to find, to stay in the souvenir game.  It is one of the few side-games far flung players can participate in, provided the requirement are low, or there is something to offset the lack of caches.  I never said souvenirs are key to anything, but every little bit helps.

 

Yes, once the few local players have found the cache, all we get is traffic from tourists or the odd expat and you will see nothing but white faces.  Speaking for myself, my caches are almost fully aimed at tourists, and I do not see any harm in it because these caches tend to work equally well for local players.

Yes, some players, not all, do try to scrape together enough points for a souvenir.  The recent requirements were very disappointing, and it seems HQ took the route of powerplay because they now have that fairly useless Friends League monstrosity, and they have no other use for it.  It would help if they would not say "individual points" because that makes it SO much harder for so many players!

[+thebruce0]

7 hours ago, StopTheWorld said:

3. After the initial flurry of finding most caches within sight, become an enthusiastic cache owner, placing caches for others to find, and hope that it will spur some others to become geocachers, and then hopefully cache owners.

 

This is a good option if you intend to hide more in-the-open caches that could get muggles' attention in a way that might attract and inform about geocaching; especially if you don't typically host 101-style get-involved events.  Camouflaged containers are for existing geocachers. Things like Little Libraries, or library caches, or front porch/business (non-advertising) permission caches - those can attract new people to the hobby.  Piggy-back off existing hobbies, friendly locations and such.

 

7 hours ago, StopTheWorld said:

I don't know how caching gained traction in other countries. Before here, I lived in the north of Australia, and it took off faster than is happening in Malaysia, but nothing like the explosion experienced in USA and Europe.

 

It's an interesting thought... it may be a very 'first-world' mentality... I mean, with people so involved with personal lives and livehiloods and working and high density urban areas and flooded by high tech lifestyles, most probably don't get out to enjoy fresh air and relax in the outdoors, see things just beyond their sphere of daily influence. Geocaching could be scratching that itch; and there's a huge contrast in many of these areas between the urban cities and natural areas that either often spot the city or border in parks just outside its borders. I think culture could play a big role in the uptick of the hobby in some countries where that culture isn't as prominent (I don't really have an idea of what your local cultural landscape is like, so plz don't bite my head off ;)). *shrug*

(btw I don't like the "white people" group either, since there are many cultures where skin may appear white but ethinically they're very different, and yeah photos from US/EU spots are guaranteed to be more stereotypically american/european than having the appearance of other ethinicities)

I think the key to the hobby's uptick is not so much ethinic or even economic background as it is cultural and daily lifestyle; types where people are more inclined to value the 'scavenger hunt' type of free time use, finding value in hunting and searching with the reward. That's not for everyone (even in such high-density geocaching regions)

 

There are some caches placed in very remote areas of the world by people who may work there, but not live there. That kind of placement might pique the curiosity of locals, but I think the intent of the owner isn't so much that it's found often, but for anyone who does find it it becomes a nice bonus for whatever reason they're already there

 

3 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

They can help us at near zero cost!  Geocaching is a GPS game, open up the dadgum app for certain geographic locations so that the caches we put out can actually be found.

 

At the very least, that could be an interesting strategy on Groundspeaks' part. They could run promos for short periods to let people know they can get into the game at no cost. PM trials are easy to come by, so putting them out there in those areas (rather than waiting for people to ask) could help some.

The app itself is free, so the only walls are the threshold for what's displayed to free/basic users (in the app only - website is open all the way up to PM caches), and whether the user pays for a regular premium membership.

 

3 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

3 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Lower the DT ratings.

 

Problem solved.

But then you get a raft of different problems, where caches half way up a mountain side are listed as T1.5, not a very good solution.

 

Another interesting regional dilemma. In areas with a LOT of terrain variation, many "easy" caches necessarily have higher terrains or difficulty. Is the "beginner" definition regionally dependent? Maybe it should be.  Raise the threshold in some areas where the typical stats are different if it looks like most of them are hidden from basic visibility.

 

56 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

I agree word count won't work, HOWEVER, I minimum requirement of 25-50 words would kill the dreaded "TFTC" take-all-leave nothing style of logs.

 

enh... until people just start "aoiehf awue hliuwaeh cvlkuasd vlkuhasdklvh kadf ukh tftc"-ing just to get their log posted.

 

I fully agree that TM's 1.5/1.5 thing was a Bad Idea - if he meant just changing the DTs (which is actually what he said), so I'm with you on that. The alternative though would be to actually hide caches that are below that threshold mentioned above. If GS doesn't bump the DT bar higher in your area, and the visibility of caches is so low as you explain it is, then perhaps consider hiding some more 'beginner' caches that would show up for non-PM members?  At least until they recognize that the minimum geocache experience is higher than the 2/2 threshold (or whatever it is currently, I forget). But I'm guessing you've already thought of that

 

 

[+StopTheWorld]

On 10/23/2018 at 7:12 PM, speakers-corner said:

Sorry, but I dont think this would be a good idea. There would probably be a big jump in trash Caches being placed if points are awarded for placing caches.

It might. But would people really go the effort of placing a cache, to get a point for a challenge and perhaps a souvenir? In any case, I think the suggestion was to gain points for the challenge when someone *finds* a cache you own and maintain. I like the idea of COs getting a point towards a HQ souvenir challenge, each time one of your caches is found, but (I mentioned it before, I think, in this discussion) what about limiting it to established caches eg. at least 3 months old, or a year old? Then it becomes a bonus only for COs who maintain and keep their caches alive. I think it's a great idea as an incentive for cache owners. I also agree that incentives are a good idea. Yes, the game is about finding caches, but without those people *hiding* caches, what is there to find? HQ have tried a few things, so they are obviously aware that it's a good thing to give COs a pat on the back occasionally. But most of us never get picked out to have our cache featured, for example, or be rewarded with a virtual, so something a little more ground-level (that rewards many COs in a small way) might be a good idea.
Yes, I'm aware we don't place caches for accolades, but it's still nice to be appreciated. I might be repeating myself here.
What about a little email to all COs, just to say "thank you"? The souvenir a few years ago was a pleasant, unexpected and delightful surprise. Or another souvenir at 4/ 5 million?
Or making more of a deal with the PG badge gen, especially the stats related to cache ownership? I didn't even realise the CO badge existed until a week ago, just after a had created a second account and separated out my caches, to make the map in the area look like there's  not just the one CO owning 80%, and now I have dropped a badge level.
Premium memberships, a geocoin, etc to COs with a minimum number of FP?
Or a really cheap one- a free tracking code for a TB to COs who meet some requirement (cache owned for more than 5 years, a certain number of total FP, most favourite cache in their state, etc)

Things like this might actually encourage people to aspire to better caches. It would certainly make people *think* about what makes a good cache. I'd never thought about it much, as I rarely take part in forums, until recently, despite owning many caches (I adopted out all my caches when I moved), so I never aspired to make better caches until I got involved with a local group and was challenged by one of the members. If we don't ask people to consider what makes a good cache, and how could they make their hides better, they probably won't think too much about it.

[+thebruce0]

31 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

a free tracking code for a TB to COs who meet some requirement

 

This is certainly something extremely viable. It's no cost (to my understanding, apart from whatever extra server traffic more TB codes cause but those are created and distributed daily anyway) and gives its recipient something to 'own' and do with as they please.  Of course some people may not care for TBs but at least it's a gesture that probably the vast majority of recipients would appreciate even a little, and make use of. Plus it has the added benefit of giving value right back into the system.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

I've mentioned points for far flung COs to use toward souvenirs, ..

 

...but why not introduce a cache reward, a specific cache type, for COs who accumulate a certain score on a cache or caches, based on age, FP, number of logs ...something like that?  A cache type that can only be gained by COs who clearly have invested time and effort in their cache(s).  With a set of requirements that can't be reached overnight with throwdowns for numbers.

 

Or what about something to strive for... a "best of..." marker?  If a cache has a certain age, has 70%+ FP approval rate, award it a bronze, 80%+ award it silver, 90%+ gold status.  Why not change the icon of their cache in those colors to set them apart on the map?

I'm just throwing something out, HQ might not like all of the ideas, but we only need one to stick isn't it?

[+L0ne.R]

21 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

A cache type that can only be gained by COs who clearly have invested time and effort in their cache(s)

 

They did that with Virtuals last year. Many COs were insulted because they didn't get a Virtual reward and felt many who did weren't deserving. Many feel that high number hiders contribute much to the game and are deserving of rewards (even when maintenance of those caches are rather slack).   Defining who is a deserving CO is tricky.

[+L0ne.R]

If there's a reward I think it needs to be a quiet, thank-you-style of reward that doesn't make other COs feel slighted. I like the TB idea. Maybe a free 6 months PM membership.

I strongly feel that a deserving CO should have a proven record of cache and listing maintenance. 

[+niraD]

2 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

minimum requirement of 25-50 words would kill the dreaded "TFTC" take-all-leave nothing style of logs. 

Oh, yes. It would definitely kill the single-world logs, in exchange for multi-word logs like:

 

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

 

Or even:

 

Yea! Wherefore doth trivial honor send word of th' moon's ecstasies? O glorious looseness! Thou art the oppressor's capital buttocks. From whence doth ancient history consummate not th' stars' own purgatory? Why doth never-dying repentance drink not of the jester's loyalty? O mildewed insolence! O lewd calamity! Were it so! Thou art th' cloud's womanly conscience. Nay! Why doth regal felicity wound thy suspicion's horrors? Wherefore doth weary asylum salve not the earth's bollocks? Lo!
 

[+dprovan]

3 hours ago, StopTheWorld said:

I'll make a deal with you then. Stop broadcasting about these souvenirs that you are all getting over there in your amazing, wonderful, cache-dense area. Ask HQ to stop sending me emails begging me to take part in something that is way beyond what I can handle. Don't tell me about people way more awesome than me who were "allowed" to list a virtual cache because of their awesomeness, and DO NOT post anywhere on the internet how there are way too many virtuals in your neighbourhood now. I might live in Asia, but I have internet and I do not live in a bubble. I can see where the grass is much, much greener.

In your "Account Settings" there's a section called "Email Preferences" in which there are two check boxes: "Newsletter" and "Educational and Promotional". Clear them. All the email stops. I did that a long time ago. No need to make any deals with Team Microdot.

 

3 hours ago, StopTheWorld said:

Don't you get it? My geocaching experience, my whole experience of life, is different to yours.

I get it! I get it! What I don't get is why you're seeking a centralized solution to a problem you understand yourself better than anyone else in the world. You and BarnyardDawg sound like the most qualified people to address these problems, and one of you already told us how you've dealt with other problems you found. When you come to the forums and ask GS to solve the problem, not only are you not likely to get a satisfactory solution -- GS has way bigger fish to fry -- but you're also going to get reactions from people who cache in areas where your solutions to your problems will cause much bigger problems. You're very intent on getting us to see your problem, but you seem to fob off our problems as nothing but arrogance.

[+cerberus1]

5 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

The best way to promote the game is to show good caches in great places, but those caches are tucked away behind the 1.5/1.5 barrier. 

 

I realize you're only talking about the app, but wasn't that raised to 2/2 recently?   That's only an issue if using the app.

A basic member can access all caches (except pmo)  with even a low-end handheld GPSr, and using the site.. 

 - That hasn't changed since the hobby started.  

[+Barnyard Dawg]

6 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

 

They did that with Virtuals last year. Many COs were insulted because they didn't get a Virtual reward and felt many who did weren't deserving. Many feel that high number hiders contribute much to the game and are deserving of rewards (even when maintenance of those caches are rather slack).   Defining who is a deserving CO is tricky.

 

That was a one off, limited edition reward based on a dodgy algorithm that was pretty much spaghetti, the only thing it did do right, was to exclude all players outside the EU/US.  If you look at the map of virtuals via PGC, you will see that the bulk ended up in the EU and the USA with the remainder a few vacation strays.

What I meant would be something based on a fixed set of requirements, age and quality for starters!  High enough to exclude throwdowns and unmaintained spitballs, high enough to force the CO to stay engaged, but obviously within reach of every CO regardless where they are located.

 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

4 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

I realize you're only talking about the app, but wasn't that raised to 2/2 recently?   That's only an issue if using the app.

A basic member can access all caches (except pmo)  with even a low-end handheld GPSr, and using the site.. 

 - That hasn't changed since the hobby started.  

 

None of the new players would know about the workarounds.

[+L0ne.R]

3 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

High enough to exclude throwdowns and unmaintained spitballs, high enough to force the CO to stay engaged, but obviously within reach of every CO regardless where they are located.

 

I think we agree on the criteria, if they were to reward ownership. 

 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

42 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

Yes, I'm aware we don't place caches for accolades, but it's still nice to be appreciated.

 

Agree.  Someone mentioned that appreciation comes from logs, I agree with that, and I have had some great logs that reminded me why I am a CO.  But with fewer and fewer people leave logs worth reading.  Make no mistake, logs are a (unused and abused) feature for seekers, not COs.  In a perfect world, everyone would leave a nice log describing their experiences, but in reality even a grateful one-liner is often a painful stretch.  Courtesy is no longer a thing.  It's an attitude problem caused by the numbers game... it's all about the +1, regardless where it comes from, never mind who placed that cache for their convenience or through which lengths they go to ensure it is well maintained.  Appreciation is more often then not lacking.  So what can replaced the lack of gratitude?

 

 

56 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

What about a little email to all COs, just to say "thank you"?

 

?

 

59 minutes ago, StopTheWorld said:

Or making more of a deal with the PG badge gen, especially the stats related to cache ownership?

 

You mean prominently display a COs status to bump their ego?

 

1 hour ago, StopTheWorld said:

I never aspired to make better caches until I got involved with a local group and was challenged by one of the members. If we don't ask people to consider what makes a good cache, and how could they make their hides better, they probably won't think too much about it.

 

Exactly!  1.5/1.5 caches have to be, even if it is because it is a near requirement thanks to the app.  The better caches do not serve new players and non-premiums, so these are for the few local players and the tourists only.  Puzzles, multis, Wherigo, earthcaches, they do not work here and I have yet to see anyone pick one of these as their first cache.  We have great caches right now, well maintained, geocaching in Malaysia is a lovely experience these days.  We do of course we do have the option to build extremely nice and legendary showcase caches, but whom for?  And to be honest the time and effort for one such cache is better spent elsewhere.

[+cerberus1]

3 hours ago, StopTheWorld said:

 Geocaching is different where there's not a lot of caches. It's not my fault, it's nothing I did wrong, it just is. I can accept that...

 

Agreed.

I entered a major contest once, won , and a few friends jokingly griped that because they lived in states that didn't allow those contests they couldn't even enter.

We all understood that.  

These promotions get some folks pumped to play, with many realizing they might not be able get all, but have fun attempting some.

When we're seeing people these days who expect to be rewarded, it's nice to see when folks understand everyone doesn't have to get a trophy. 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

 

25 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

I strongly feel that a deserving CO should have a proven record of cache and listing maintenance. 

 

100% agree.  The stats are there, all they need to do is come up with a bullet proof formula that is clear to every CO so then can work toward that goal and claim that special prize.  Something with a little prestige, akin to a Service Medal, perhaps not unlike for example the status of Charter Member.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

2 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Agreed.

I entered a major contest once, won , and a few friends jokingly griped that because they lived in states that didn't allow those contests they couldn't even enter.

We all understood that.  

These promotions get some folks pumped to play, with many realizing they might not be able get all, but have fun attempting some.

When we're seeing people these days who expect to be rewarded, it's nice to see when folks understand everyone doesn't have to get a trophy. 

 

A trophy is not required, but a sincere form of recognition would be nice.

[+niraD]

1 minute ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

The stats are there, all they need to do is come up with a bullet proof formula that is clear to every CO

 

1 minute ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

so then can work toward that goal and claim that special prize.

And there's the gaming of the system that at least some of us want to avoid, at least when it comes to cache ownership. Owners wouldn't be hiding caches for the sake of owning and maintaining caches for the long term, but so they can "work toward that goal and claim that special prize."

[+niraD]

19 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

None of the new players would know about the workarounds.

What workarounds? Nothing cerberus1 described was a workaround. It's the way the game has been played by many geocachers from the beginning.

[+cerberus1]

23 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

None of the new players would know about the workarounds.

 

I wouldn't be too sure.    

There's one heck of a lot of threads with new cachers realizing their phones just aren't cutting it (battery mostly).

"Which GPS?" is probably one the top ten of thread questions.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

2 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

 

100% agree.  The stats are there, all they need to do is come up with a bullet proof formula that is clear to every CO so then can work toward that goal and claim that special prize.  Something with a little prestige, akin to a Service Medal, perhaps not unlike for example the status of Charter Member.

 

This has been debated before. Let's start.

 

------------------------------

 

You create a cache that gets 100 'finds' and 10 'FPs' and has a few issues over a few years and deal with them all.

I create a cache on the same day that gets 100 'finds' and 10 'FPs', but has NO issues.

 

You get an award for maintenance and I don't?

 

----------------------

 

We both create caches on the same day. Both get 100 finds, and ten FPs.

One of the logs on your cache says "Couldn't find it so I threw down a replacement", and you do nothing about it.

 

You get an award for maintenance and I don't?

 

----------------------

 

We both create caches on the same day. Both get 100 finds, and ten FPs.

Mine is a camouflaged ammo can which I spent five hours crafting and deploying.

Yours is an Altoids tin that's always wet and rusty. A group of college freshmen swooped though on a lark and they ALL dropped a FP on your cache because it would never OCCUR to them to repurpose an Altoids tin! Amazing! No one with more than 11 finds gives you a FP.

 

You get that 'excellence' award and I don't?

 

------------------------

 

ANY set of "Quality Criteria" would have to be ridiculously complex and most likely unmeasurable.

 

 

[+TeamRabbitRun]

42 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

Agree.  Someone mentioned that appreciation comes from logs, I agree with that, and I have had some great logs that reminded me why I am a CO.  But with fewer and fewer people leave logs worth reading.  Make no mistake, logs are a (unused and abused) feature for seekers, not COs.  In a perfect world, everyone would leave a nice log describing their experiences, but in reality even a grateful one-liner is often a painful stretch.  Courtesy is no longer a thing.  It's an attitude problem caused by the numbers game... it's all about the +1, regardless where it comes from, never mind who placed that cache for their convenience or through which lengths they go to ensure it is well maintained.  Appreciation is more often then not lacking.  So what can replaced the lack of gratitude?

 

 

 

?

 

 

You mean prominently display a COs status to bump their ego?

 

 

Exactly!  1.5/1.5 caches have to be, even if it is because it is a near requirement thanks to the app.  The better caches do not serve new players and non-premiums, so these are for the few local players and the tourists only.  Puzzles, multis, Wherigo, earthcaches, they do not work here and I have yet to see anyone pick one of these as their first cache.  We have great caches right now, well maintained, geocaching in Malaysia is a lovely experience these days.  We do of course we do have the option to build extremely nice and legendary showcase caches, but whom for?  And to be honest the time and effort for one such cache is better spent elsewhere.

 

So let me get this straight: You participate in a hobby where you make things primarily for people who don't live there and don't care about you, and you're upset because they're not appreciative enough. You want GS to create something to make you feel better about yourself for creating these things when you don't see the point?
 
In addition, there isn't enough local activity for you to be more active in the hobby, and you're upset that you can't participate at the same level as people who live in busier areas.
 
Two suggestions:
 

1. Maybe the 'hiding part of this hobby isn't for you, AND 
2. Take responsibility for your own hobby! If you don't like your caching environment, go change it! Go make more cachers to find your caches! Host events! Talk it up! Get into the local papers! Presentations at libraries or schools or places of worship or community centers! Get people to join you! Get people excited about this hobby! If you can't, then there's your answer; it just might not work where you are.

  
You're right; this IS a game based in the US. Too bad, but that's where those guys lived when they started Groundspeak. I think Groundspeak does plenty to make accommodations for other places, but at some point you're responsible for you and your own experience.

 

[+dprovan]

15 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

ANY set of "Quality Criteria" would have to be ridiculously complex and most likely unmeasurable.

Not to mention pointless. In then end, the best you can hope for is that a smart CO or two figure out how to get rewarded and focus on that, distracting them from their own natural interest in creating individual caches that people enjoy. There's no way a reward system of any kind is going to result in the blossoming of caches that Barnyard Dawg imagines. That can only start from a local culture of hiding caches. If there aren't enough geocachers in the area to result in that kind of culture, nothing GS does is going to matter.

[+Team Microdot]

3 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

 

So let me get this straight: You participate in a hobby where you make things primarily for people who don't live there and don't care about you, and you're upset because they're not appreciative enough. You want GS to create something to make you feel better about yourself for creating these things when you don't see the point?
 
In addition, there isn't enough local activity for you to be more active in the hobby, and you're upset that you can't participate at the same level as people who live in busier areas.
 
Two suggestions:
 

1. Maybe the 'hiding part of this hobby isn't for you, AND 
2. Take responsibility for your own hobby! If you don't like your caching environment, go change it! Go make more cachers to find your caches! Host events! Talk it up! Get into the local papers! Presentations at libraries or schools or places of worship or community centers! Get people to join you! Get people excited about this hobby! If you can't, then there's your answer; it just might not work where you are.

  
You're right; this IS a game based in the US. Too bad, but that's where those guys lived when they started Groundspeak. I think Groundspeak does plenty to make accommodations for other places, but at some point you're responsible for you and your own experience.

 

 

^^^ APPLAUSE ^^^

[+NYPaddleCacher]

5 hours ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

Geocaching is a location based game, tweaking the app to open up the game in specific countries would be a small effort by any corporate standard!  It makes sense that, if they want us to make the game grow, that they give us all the tools we need, right now they effectively cripple our efforts!

 

I am certainly sympathetic to your concerns, having geocached in many countries that have a very low number of caches (including Malaysia, though in Sarawak where the cache density is extremely low), but I'm not so sure that tweaking the app will help the game grow.    Giving benefits to specific countries also means denying benefits for those in many countries that may only be slightly more developed in terms of the popularity of the game.  It certainly understand that, due to very low cache densities that those that live in some countries just don't get the same benefits as those that have the luxury of living somewhere with a high density of geocaches and geocachers.  In fact, I've spoken out  about the inequality many times.   I'd also like to encourage other ideas which might help promote the game where it is under developed,  especially those that aren't just a technical solution.

 

There can only be one HQ.  HQ stands for headquarters and there can be only one head.   What *might* make sense are regional "offices",  though I don't think it would required a physical office, but to at least have someone at HQ which focuses specifically on different regions.  Consider countries like India and  Indonesia, the 2nd and 4th most populated countries in the world, yet it only 267 and 261 caches respectively.  There is certainly a lot of opportunity for growth there, and having someone that specifically focuses on under developed regions might help.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

1 hour ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

You're right; this IS a game based in the US.

 

The cause of all problems has been identified.

 

Thank you!

[+MartyBartfast]

30 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

 

The cause of all problems has been identified.

 

Thank you!

 

Clearly that's not the cause of all the problems, if it was then both South Korea and Japan should have the same issues as Malaysia, and they don't.

Currently listed caches for those countries:- 

M:     509       
SK:    6354   
J:    26881  

 

and the differences are not proportional to their different land areas or population sizes.
 

[+31BMSG]

I consider myself to be in a low density area and wondered what a "real" low density area looked like, so I did a 100 mile search around Kuala Lumpur as well as my location. What a surprise! Taking into account caches owned by the OP and myself Kuala Lumpur has 26 fewer caches in the OP's radius than mine in Texas, 26 caches! When I started this game I realized there was a lack of caches and knew I would have to take that into account. I was (unintentionally) able to complete the last few promotions because I accepted the challenge and figured out a way to get it done myself without any special consideration.

 

BTW, I looked at the Geocaching.my Facebook page and if I were a new cacher some of the comments would make me have second thoughts, far from positive and encouraging.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

23 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

 

Clearly that's not the cause of all the problems, if it was then both South Korea and Japan should have the same issues as Malaysia, and they don't.

Currently listed caches for those countries:- 

M:     509       
SK:    6354   
J:    26881  

 

and the differences are not proportional to their different land areas or population sizes.
 

 

While you're on PGC, look up how many players own those caches!

 

South Korea: The top 4 players own 5000+ caches, the top 6 owns 6000+
Japan: The top 6 owns 5000+ caches.

The also do not have the players, but they have a few [who hide many caches].

 

If you're going to throw numbers out, make sure they prove your point!

Edited October 25, 2018 by Keystone
edited to comply with forum guidelines

[+Barnyard Dawg]

7 minutes ago, 31BMSG said:

I consider myself to be in a low density area and wondered what a "real" low density area looked like, so I did a 100 mile search around Kuala Lumpur as well as my location. What a surprise! Taking into account caches owned by the OP and myself Kuala Lumpur has 26 fewer caches in the OP's radius than mine in Texas, 26 caches! When I started this game I realized there was a lack of caches and knew I would have to take that into account. I was (unintentionally) able to complete the last few promotions because I accepted the challenge and figured out a way to get it done myself without any special consideration.

 

BTW, I looked at the Geocaching.my Facebook page and if I were a new cacher some of the comments would make me have second thoughts, far from positive and encouraging.

 

With my caches and those in my son's account I/we manage about 100 caches, about 20% of the total.  From the remainder, some sit on mountain ridges and islands, numbers are a nice indicator, but do not provide a complete picture.  But thank you for taking the trouble to take a closer look.

 

FB is another story...

[+MartyBartfast]

12 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

If you're going to throw numbers out, make sure they prove your point! 

Well  I wasn't using Project GC, so don't know about the hiders, but according to your numbers, excluding the top 6 hiders in Japan still leaves over 20,000 caches. Also consider all of Europe, which is also not USA, so your assertion that it's the game being based in the US falls at another hurdle.

 

To be honest, you're beginning to sound as if you just want to lay the blame at someone else's door.

 

If you think the US base is the cause of all your problems, then look at OpenCaching, and start a Malaysia based competitor, OpenCaching is a serious alternative in Eastern Europe  e.g Czech Republic, Poland.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

2 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

Well  I wasn't using Project GC, so don't know about the hiders, but according to your numbers, excluding the top 6 hiders in Japan still leaves over 20,000 caches. Also consider all of Europe, which is also not USA, so your assertion that it's the game being based in the US falls at another hurdle.

 

To be honest, you're beginning to sound as if you just want to lay the blame at someone else's door.

 

If you think the US base is the cause of all your problems, then look at OpenCaching, and start a Malaysia based competitor, OpenCaching is a serious alternative in Eastern Europe  e.g Czech Republic, Poland.

 

If you were not using PGC, you might want to start, because you're not twisting this back in your favor... the fact that a country like Japan has people willing to drop thousands of caches does not mean they have a game going on.  Looks to me that they flooded the scene with caches just because they can.  They are not really impressing me!  Like this you could also argue that Singapore has a nice density, but here too, few players, but their advantage is that they sit on a tiny island.  The lack of players in Japan is not disguised by the enormous amount of caches some people drop.
 

3 hours ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

this IS a game based in the US. Too bad, but that's where those guys lived when they started Groundspeak.

 

Get your facts straight, I was not the one who dropped the "it's our game" argument here!!!  I'm not the one waving flags here!

 

GS touts the game as global, but that statement right there is an attitude problem which, if it is present at HQ, would explain a lot.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I am certainly sympathetic to your concerns,  but I'm not so sure that tweaking the app will help the game grow.

I realize that is will not solve our woes overnight, it is only but part of the difficulties we have to deal with.  And at this point, every little bit helps.

 

3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Giving benefits to specific countries also means denying benefits for those in many countries that may only be slightly more developed in terms of the popularity of the game.  It certainly understand that, due to very low cache densities that those that live in some countries just don't get the same benefits as those that have the luxury of living somewhere with a high density of geocaches and geocachers.  In fact, I've spoken out  about the inequality many times.   I'd also like to encourage other ideas which might help promote the game where it is under developed,  especially those that aren't just a technical solution.

 

You argue against country specific benefits, because giving to some means denying to others, while at the same time you mention that some countries do not enjoy the same benefits of the game.  You recognize the inequality is already a fact!  Any form of affirmative action attempting to correct the matter would be justified and appreciated.

 

3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

There can only be one HQ.  What *might* make sense are regional "offices",  though I don't think it would required a physical office, but to at least have someone at HQ which focuses specifically on different regions.  There is certainly a lot of opportunity for growth there, and having someone that specifically focuses on under developed regions might help.

 

It would certainly be a good start!  I would like to add the urgent need for a local reviewer or at least official representation,  "eyes on the ground", as well.  Our reviewer manages almost all of Asia from all the way out in the US.  He is a great reviewer, we really can't complain, but recent events made clear that there's a serious disconnect with players and country.  Without going into detail, I can say that the fact that there are no eyes on the ground creates a very unhealthy situation when a conflict arises.

It would be nice, but I'm not asking, hey, send us trackables and bison tubes (we have to import all of this), give us free premium stuff, and whatnot... none of that!  What I do like to see is that we be given the basics and fair chance to build up the game.  The game was allowed to grow in the US and EU without all the current restriction, and while it did not always work out, it did get the game where it is today.  We are only asking for the same opportunity to grow!  Project-GC will confirm that in most countries in this region and far beyond, the game relies on just a handful of players much like myself.  In Malaysia we got together and it took us two years to clean up the place, but there are not enough of us to carry the game nationwide, and we only do reasonable in about 3 states.  There's only so much we can do, and without changes, without additional support, all we can hope for is retaining a status quo.

[+STNolan]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:07 AM, Barnyard Dawg said:

I would still like to hear about other possible ways HQ could possibly make life as a CO a bit more satisfying/interesting.  I am not asking to be rewarded for cache placements... in fact, together with my family I maintain nearly 100 caches (about 20% of all caches in Malaysia) and and never asked a thing in return.

Little late to this party, but I'll toss this out: it would be nice to see a moratorium on minimum log length. Receiving a "TFTC" or a ":)" or heavens forbid a "." log are all very disappointing when my phone lights up with a logged cache notification.

That being said, I already know what will happen if they try and implement that: "This is cache XX of YY today for the Tuesday Caching Crew consisting of Cacher 1, Cacher 2, and Cacher 3! What a blast we had today finding all these caches. Thanks to the COs for placing and maintaining them!"


I can't think of a way to combat both minimalistic logs and generic logs. 

[+MartyBartfast]

15 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

the fact that a country like Japan has people willing to drop thousands of caches does not mean they have a game going on.  Looks to me that they flooded the scene with caches just because they can.  They are not really impressing me!

 

You're really losing me here. On the one hand you complain about Japan because they have lots of cachers willing to place lots of caches and "flood the scene". And yet at the same time you're complaining that Malaysia doesn't have lots of cachers willing to place lots of caches. Why is it you want for Malaysia precisely that which fails to impress you about Japan, and you are seeking some sort of preferential incentives to drive that growth in Malaysia?

 

I gave you what I thought was a positive response earlier in this thread when I suggested you contact Groundspeak direct to see if they might do some de-restriction in the app for your region. If you really want something doing then you should go straight to them, rather than posting on here because 1) these threads are most likely not getting to the people who you need to reach; and 2) you're increasingly coming across as someone who is just embittered and is looking to rant, rather than wanting to engage in any meaningful dialog.

 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

3 minutes ago, STNolan said:

Little late to this party, but I'll toss this out: it would be nice to see a moratorium on minimum log length. Receiving a "TFTC" or a ":)" or heavens forbid a "." log are all very disappointing when my phone lights up with a logged cache notification.

That being said, I already know what will happen if they try and implement that: "This is cache XX of YY today for the Tuesday Caching Crew consisting of Cacher 1, Cacher 2, and Cacher 3! What a blast we had today finding all these caches. Thanks to the COs for placing and maintaining them!"


I can't think of a way to combat both minimalistic logs and generic logs. 

 

PGC keeps track of log similarity... if they can do it, GS can do it.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

4 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

You're really losing me here. On the one hand you complain about Japan because they have lots of cachers willing to place lots of caches and "flood the scene". And yet at the same time you're complaining that Malaysia doesn't have lots of cachers willing to place lots of caches. Why is it you want for Malaysia precisely that which fails to impress you about Japan, and you are seeking some sort of preferential incentives to drive that growth in Malaysia?

Why is it you want for Malaysia precisely that which fails to impress you about Japan?  Quality for starters!  If we want to see growth, we need players that add to the scene with quality caches (drive competition that sort of stuff).  We do not need some individual spoiling the place with 2000 lame caches.  Quantity followed by a lack of maintenance does not promote the game and it will take years of effort from others to clean that mess up.  You would be pretty naïve to think Japan is doing well.  Hence my request to take a closer look.  First glance yes, wow, closer look... eh, no thanks!

Also Japan does not have "lots of cachers willing to place lots of caches", players wise they not doing much better compared to Malaysia, and with their approach to tackle the same problem, they are creating the above mentioned problems for themselves by throwing out crazy amounts of caches!  My humble opinion, these few players are ruining geocaching in Japan!

[+MartyBartfast]

3 minutes ago, Barnyard Dawg said:

Quality for starters!  If we want to see growth, we need players that add to the scene with quality caches (drive competition that sort of stuff).  We do not need some individual spoiling the place with 2000 lame caches. 

 

Well you seem to have drifted from the objective of your OP where you said nothing about quality, and only talked about quantity, e.g.:

 

Quote

And it dawned on me... as a perk to stimulate cache placement in low density areas,

 

As I believe someone else pointed out earlier (and you didn't like it IIRC), offering incentives to place caches will inevitably lead to high volume, and most likely low quality cache placements.

 

 

[+Barnyard Dawg]

4 hours ago, dprovan said:

What I don't get is why you're seeking a centralized solution to a problem you understand yourself better than anyone else in the world.  When you come to the forums and ask GS to solve the problem, not only are you not likely to get a satisfactory solution, but you're also going to get reactions from people who cache in areas where your solutions to your problems will cause much bigger problems. You're very intent on getting us to see your problem, but you seem to fob off our problems as nothing but arrogance. 

 

Well, excuse us for reaching out!  We are not asking to make changes to your game, but for an assist in ours.  OP asked for ideas on how to make cache ownership more interesting, but some of y'all hijacked the thread and now you're complaining about our response.

And uhm... are you not doing exactly what you are accusing us off?  Brushing our problems under the carpet to protect your own game?  From our point of view you do not nearly have as many issues to deal with.  A bit of fairness is not a big ask is it?  And let's not forget, most of our visitors are from the US and EU, and any positive change benefits anyone who would visit our side of the world.  It's a "global" game right?  Well guess what, we're a part of that game, and we feel we are too often left out, and we deserve better.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

1 minute ago, MartyBartfast said:

Well you seem to have drifted from the objective of your OP

 

Not by choice!

 

1 minute ago, MartyBartfast said:

As I believe someone else pointed out earlier, offering incentives to place caches will inevitably lead to high volume, and most likely low quality cache placements.

 

Depends on the incentive... the OP asked for ideas, not plug and play solutions with terms and regulations worked out.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

30 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

You're increasingly coming across as someone who is just embittered and is looking to rant, rather than wanting to engage in any meaningful dialog.

Again, not by choice, if everyone shared and idea instead of hijacking the thread and launching torpedoes, no ranting would have taken place.

To be honest, some of the responses have been rude and jaw-dropping, and the forum experience has been well below expectations so far.

[+Team Microdot]

Just now, Barnyard Dawg said:

To be honest, some of the responses have been rude and jaw-dropping, and the forum experience has been well below expectations so far.

 

At last, something we agree on.

 

I'm surprised the thread hasn't been locked yet.

 

Can only imagine TPTB are seeing just how far it'll go.

[+funkymunkyzone]

I'm a little astonished by some of the comments on this thread, particularly the unsympathetic ones from people who have only ever cached in the US or within their cache dense country...

 

As someone who has actually found geocaches in quite a few pretty far flung and cache poor areas, I am EXTREMELY appreciative of the efforts of COs like @Barnyard Dawg because without them MY enjoyment of this game would be far less.

[+Team Microdot]

7 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I'm a little astonished by some of the comments on this thread, particularly the unsympathetic ones from people who have only ever cached in the US or within their cache dense country...

 

As someone who has actually found geocaches in quite a few pretty far flung and cache poor areas, I am EXTREMELY appreciative of the efforts of COs like @Barnyard Dawg because without them MY enjoyment of this game would be far less.

 

I'm astonished that you're astonished!

[+Barnyard Dawg]

11 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

 

At last, something we agree on.

 

I'm surprised the thread hasn't been locked yet.

 

Can only imagine TPTB are seeing just how far it'll go.

 

Well, you are still here and free to hackle, so I'm guessing we're good.

[+Barnyard Dawg]

29 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I'm a little astonished by some of the comments on this thread, particularly the unsympathetic ones from people who have only ever cached in the US or within their cache dense country...

 

As someone who has actually found geocaches in quite a few pretty far flung and cache poor areas, I am EXTREMELY appreciative of the efforts of COs like @Barnyard Dawg because without them MY enjoyment of this game would be far less.

 

Thank you!  Very much appreciated!

[+StopTheWorld]

11 hours ago, dprovan said:

In your "Account Settings" there's a section called "Email Preferences" in which there are two check boxes: "Newsletter" and "Educational and Promotional". Clear them. All the email stops. I did that a long time ago. No need to make any deals with Team Microdot.

 

Good idea! I might do that, but I don't live in a bubble. I am part of a number of geocaching groups (for support, friendship etc) and the internet still sends me stuff. dadgum, facebok and google even work out my hobbies and choose things specifically to suck me in.

11 hours ago, dprovan said:

 

 GS has way bigger fish to fry

 

11 hours ago, dprovan said:

 

 

 

[+StopTheWorld]

7 hours ago, 31BMSG said:

I consider myself to be in a low density area and wondered what a "real" low density area looked like, so I did a 100 mile search around Kuala Lumpur as well as my location. What a surprise! Taking into account caches owned by the OP and myself Kuala Lumpur has 26 fewer caches in the OP's radius than mine in Texas, 26 caches! When I started this game I realized there was a lack of caches and knew I would have to take that into account.

Try searching the radius for MY caches. Do a 16/ 30/ 100km radius from Ipoh, malaysia, and leave out caches owned by "StopTheWorld", then see what low cache density is! KL is caching mecca for Malaysians.

 

7 hours ago, 31BMSG said:

 

BTW, I looked at the Geocaching.my Facebook page and if I were a new cacher some of the comments would make me have second thoughts, far from positive and encouraging.

I agree! FB pages should be welcoming and supportive. I wonder if *I* said anything un-positive? I'm one of the major contributors. Better check ...

 

[+StopTheWorld]

11 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

These promotions get some folks pumped to play, with many realizing they might not be able get all, but have fun attempting some.

When we're seeing people these days who expect to be rewarded, it's nice to see when folks understand everyone doesn't have to get a trophy. 

 

I get the impression that many of the people replying to this thread are of the opinion, "here are a couple of people from a two-bit country with only 500 caches and 175 active cachers, asking US to change how the game is played for THEM". I can only speak for myself here, and that IS NOT what I am getting at, at all. I don't expect  reward for my cache ownership and I'm not demanding changes. I *thought* I was trying to make constructive suggestions for things that might improve the game, for all of us. It IS a global game (that's not just a catch-cry), and while some of you Americans who never set foot outside of the US seem to not give a dadgum about anyone else in the world (hmm, I feel a sense of deja vu...) those who DO travel seem to be able to comprend how their experience of geocaching and mine might overlap at some time. I do hope we cross paths sometime- we love meeting broad-minded travellers, and events to meet visitors to our town are the highlight of the geocaching year!
 

The thread was about incentives to motivate players. It *wasn't* about asking Americans to bend over backwards to accommodate our two-bit backwater which apparently makes no contribution to the global game (even if the vast majority of logs are by folk from EU and USA). It was about motivating people, maybe introduce some things to find cache ownership more fun, in the face of declining participation in the game, and some of us gave our perspectives, from a place where cache placement and heavy involvement is more of a challenge than starting people out. NOT asking for a pat on the back, or rewards, just wondering how we can motivate people to place caches. I also suspect Barnyard Dawg is wondering if there is something you could make inherent in the game that would encourage cache ownership, as I know a lot of the very positive, sensible suggestions for encouraging cache ownership at a personal level, he has tried. He has tried very hard, invested a lot of his own money and time, and so I guess he might be questioning what else might be done. His comment "Or what about something to strive for...?" would suggest he is more thinking of how to stretch and entice people to make great caches, and nowhere have I seen him suggest that he expects rewards for cache ownership. It would be nice if people would quit with that line of argument. 

 

Ugh. And now I need to go and read some logs on some of my caches, and *hope* some are at least a bit appreciative (don't get a lot of that, actually, just a lot of entitlement), because right now, I feel like hitting the "archive" button 80 times!

Edited October 26, 2018 by StopTheWorld