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the Seagnoid

Challenge Cache type update?

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7 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

No, not limitations with my equipment, so no, you see wrong.  Limitations of my eyes and my brain not being able to tell the difference between one ?

 

How do you separate your solved mystery caches from unsolved ones?

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7 hours ago, StefandD said:

It's an answer to a question about GSAK and has nothing to do with the website. Please read before reacting.

Um.  I wasn't disagreeing with you.  I was simply adding the comment that having to solve the problem using tools outside of the website is bad UX design of the website.

 

Edit to add: And you were answering me... am I not allowed to make further comment?

Edited by funkymunkyzone

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3 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

How do you separate your solved mystery caches from unsolved ones?

It's not really relevant to the discussion, because they're not challenge caches... but I just have a bookmark list.  But then I tend to solve and find quickly, or forget about them, so I'm probably not your typical cacher in that regards.

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19 hours ago, fuzziebear3 said:

I think an attribute makes sense.  I think implementing a new cache type is going to open up too many cans of worms.   Not only the retroactive application issue, but also possible new values in the GPX format and interface issues with some of the GPS units that are out there.  Plus cascading 'keep up' problems for other third party interfaces such as project-gc, GSAK, alternative geocaching phone apps,  and others that I don't even know about.

 

Additionally, it will just make more another data point to be used for statistics, and by changing old ones will invalidate previous finds on other challenges that used that criteria.

 

 

 

 

 

If adding a new cache type causes interface issues with some GPS units, that's  the fault of developers of the software that runs on those units.   The type element in a GPX file is, according to the specification, "any string".   if  software that reads the "type" value assumes it an enumeration (a string from a fixed set of values) they're making an assumption about the data that is not necessarily true.  Interestingly, the specification also has a minOccurs value equal to zero, which means that type element is actually optional.  

 

For those that develop software,  it is quite common to use some software library or tool that changes out it works.   When the release notes indicate a change in behavior we update our code to handle the change.  GPS software developers should be able to adapt to change (and know how to comply with a specification) as well.

 

When evaluating whether a software features should be implemented, it boils down to a balance between the "pros" and the "cons".   For me, the impact any new feature under consideration has on peoples stats or criteria for a challenge barely moves the scale.  The "pro" of providing a filter which allows all users to easily identify challenge caches outweighs the the impact it might have to a few that are all about their statistics.  

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If we were designing this system from scratch, would Challenges be handled as a separate type from the catch-all Mystery / Unknown type?

 

I think the answer is Yes - I don’t believe I’ve seen any convincing arguments against.

 

So then it’s really down to the complexity / cost and impact of the changes - i.e. is it worth it? - and of course, the willingness of HQ to make those changes.

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3 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

So then it’s really down to the complexity / cost and impact of the changes - i.e. is it worth it? - and of course, the willingness of HQ to make those changes.

The last time Groundspeak updated the GPX format, they created a setting that allowed the user to choose which version of the GPX format is produced. With a new cache type (and other changes, like a "numbers trail" attribute), there would just be another version of the GPX format to select from. If you're using a newer system, then you can use the latest GPX version. If not, then you need to use one of the older GPX versions.

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If I recall, the version was updated because the actual structural spec of the GPX was updated, so rightfully, any software using the old spec would break. If the spec is sufficiently defined, adding new allowable data shouldn't require a version change. They could however still update the version if they feel that programmers didn't code their stuff properly and merely adding a cache type would actually break loads of software based on faulty 3rd party developer presumptions (ie, static list of cache types). But it should be clear to developers what is a static set of data and what is open-ended, allowing for additional new data items (same goes for attributes).

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3 hours ago, niraD said:

The last time Groundspeak updated the GPX format, they created a setting that allowed the user to choose which version of the GPX format is produced. With a new cache type (and other changes, like a "numbers trail" attribute), there would just be another version of the GPX format to select from. If you're using a newer system, then you can use the latest GPX version. If not, then you need to use one of the older GPX versions.

 

One would hope then the GPS manufacturers would have coded  for the differences between GPX versions, since it is user selectable.  However, as far as I can tell, the addition of a new cache type wouldn't require a version change to the GPX version.  The following would be a valid element using the current version:

<Groundspeak:type>Challenge Cache</Groundspeak:type>

 

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8 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:
11 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

How do you separate your solved mystery caches from unsolved ones?

It's not really relevant to the discussion, because they're not challenge caches... but I just have a bookmark list.  But then I tend to solve and find quickly, or forget about them, so I'm probably not your typical cacher in that regards.

 

Is there any reason why you could not use the same bookmark list for qualified challenges if your device supports this kind of solution.

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4 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Is there any reason why you could not use the same bookmark list for qualified challenges if your device supports this kind of solution.

 

Why just qualified challenges?  You can ‘write-note-find’ them pre-qualification.  In that sense they’re practically a Trad.

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1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

One would hope then the GPS manufacturers would have coded  for the differences between GPX versions, since it is user selectable.  However, as far as I can tell, the addition of a new cache type wouldn't require a version change to the GPX version.  The following would be a valid element using the current version:


<Groundspeak:type>Challenge Cache</Groundspeak:type>

 

Such a tag is actually accepted by my medium-aged Garmin (an eTrex 35). The only "problem" is that the cache then has only a generic icon ("closed box") instead of the usual type-specific ones. Definitely not a show-stopper. The app, which I use on the smart phone behaves similarly - cache is displayed perfectly fine, with a generic icon describing an "undefined" type.

 

That said, I don't think that a new cache type seriously breaks any device or app. Even if GS thinks otherwise, they could it easily make a user-selectable option to name challenge caches as "Challenge Cache" or "Unknown Cache".

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1 hour ago, IceColdUK said:

Why just qualified challenges?  You can ‘write-note-find’ them pre-qualification.  In that sense they’re practically a Trad.

 

Please explain what do you mean pre-qualification? There is no such thing (anymore).

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Just now, arisoft said:

 

Please explain what do you mean pre-qualification? There is no such thing (anymore).

 

You can find a Challenge cache before you’ve met the qualification criteria, and log a Write Note.  Once qualified, you can convert the WN to a Found log.

 

(Personally, I don’t go looking until I’ve qualified, but many do.)

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Just now, thebruce0 said:

Qualifying (and noting qualifications) before finding the physical cache.

 

You can find the challenge cache in any case. There is only few grandfathered challenges which requires posting "I accept the challenge" -notes before you go to find the cache.

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9 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

You can find a Challenge cache before you’ve met the qualification criteria, and log a Write Note.  Once qualified, you can convert the WN to a Found log.

 

You can post notes for any cache but basically there is no need to post notes before of after your found it log. I do not know any standard method to find caches where I have posted a note. There may be some. Can you use this note as a "qualified" flag for PQ or with other tools?

Edited by arisoft

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If you qualify first, you either log a note to provide the proof at that time, or do nothing.

You cannot log it found before you qualify. Thus there's no point in logging a note with qualifications after you log it found.

Some people prefer to log a note when they qualify, before they go to find the cache.

Some people will go and sign the cache, but log a note saying they found it but don't yet qualify - then once qualified, they'll log it found.

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4 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

You can post notes for any cache but basically there is no need to post notes before of after your found it log. I do not know any standard method to find caches where I have posted a note. There may be some. Can you use this note as a "qualified" flag for PQ or with other tools?


I don't look for Challenge caches unless I've qualified, but if I did, I'd either add the 'found but not qualified' caches to a Bookmark list and/or tag them in GSAK.  As far as I can see, the only purpose of the Write Note is to record your experience of finding the physical cache.  (By the time you've qualified, you may well have forgotten the actual find.)

 

For cachers that play this way (i.e. those who look for the Challenge caches regardless of qualification), a different cache type would be perfect - solved puzzles (with corrected coords) would be shown on the map with their puzzle-piece icon; Challenge caches would have their brand new icon; and both would be fair game!

 

For me, I'd be able to spot a Challenge, but I'd still need to open it up to check qualification.  (I would at least be able to ignore all of those unsolved puzzles.)

 

A new cache type AND an additional user flag on the website and map to indicate Qualified [Y/N], would be the dream result. 🙂

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3 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

A new cache type AND an additional user flag on the website and map to indicate Qualified [Y/N], would be the dream result. 🙂

 

For me the dream is having caches displayed at the corrected coordinates after I have found them.

 

For challenges I do exactly what I do with solved, unsolved and field puzzles. That is why I can not understand what is so special in challenges that they can not be handled the same way by other players. I also ignore challenges the same way as you ignore puzzles. Posting notes seems to have no function in this process.

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21 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

For me the dream is having caches displayed at the corrected coordinates after I have found them.

 

I’d like that too. :-)

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2 hours ago, arisoft said:
2 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

You can find a Challenge cache before you’ve met the qualification criteria, and log a Write Note.  Once qualified, you can convert the WN to a Found log.

You can post notes for any cache but basically there is no need to post notes before of after your found it log. I do not know any standard method to find caches where I have posted a note. There may be some. Can you use this note as a "qualified" flag for PQ or with other tools?

What IceColdUK is referring to is different from the "I accept the challenge" notes that some old challenge caches require.

 

Newer challenge caches do not require "I accept the challenge" notes, because they are required to use all Finds, regardless of date.

 

But what IceColdUK is referring to is finding a challenge cache before you meet the challenge requirements and logging a Note. Then later, after you've met the challenge requirements, changing the Note to a Find. (Personally, I don't pre-find challenge caches that I haven't met the requirements for, but Groundspeak specifically allows this practice.)

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4 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Is there any reason why you could not use the same bookmark list for qualified challenges if your device supports this kind of solution.

 

Because that doesnt work for challenges. You can qualify for them after you find them - hence why seeing them on the map distinct from mystery caches is so important.

 

I've no interest in looking up every challenge cache in the world, or even my country, to see if I qualify for them. It's a lot easier to just go caching and then see what challenges I end up being nearby or have found the physical caches for.

 

Or I work on a challenge and then go find it (but I can already do that - so long as I could find it on the map to begin with...)

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2 hours ago, arisoft said:

For challenges I do exactly what I do with solved, unsolved and field puzzles. That is why I can not understand what is so special in challenges that they can not be handled the same way by other players.

 

Ok. So let's say I'm planning a trip to Germany. The map is covered with cache icons and I'm not really sure where I'm going to go. I have no interest in opening thousands of cache pages to see which ? caches are challenges and what those challenges are.

 

So I just load them all into my GPS or just use my phone. Currently I cant tell the difference between a ? Mystery cache and a ? Challenge cache on the map when I'm travelling around. I can tell the difference between trads and multis, between virtuals and webcams, etc...

 

If your system caters for this and can show me the difference between challenge caches and mystery caches that I have otherwise never looked st before then I am all ears... but i doubt it.

 

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When I plan a trip for caching, I usually prepare myself and look at home which caches I do and which I don't want to do.

 

When unprepared: Most challenges contain the word "challenge", so just filter on that word. You might get some non-challenges, but you can easily leave them out by reading the listing.

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3 hours ago, StefandD said:

When I plan a trip for caching, I usually prepare myself and look at home which caches I do and which I don't want to do.

 

When unprepared: Most challenges contain the word "challenge", so just filter on that word. You might get some non-challenges, but you can easily leave them out by reading the listing.

 

So why are there different cache types at all? Why not just one cache type, one icon, and just put different words in the title to differentiate cache types?

 

I dont understand the resistance to the idea of having a different cache type for challenge caches. Would it actually harm the way you cache?

 

It's funny in a way that we can all talk specifically about challenge caches, we all know *exactly* what type of cache that is as opposed to other cache types, and there are lots of them... but for some reason, there's disagreement that they are indeed a distinct type of cache.

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7 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I've no interest in looking up every challenge cache in the world, or even my country, to see if I qualify for them. It's a lot easier to just go caching and then see what challenges I end up being nearby or have found the physical caches for.

 

This is exactly the same I want to happen with field puzzles. So there is two similar problems but attribute is available only for field puzzles. I could create a PQ for mystery caches with field puzzle attribute and load them to my device, if there is an attribute for challenge.

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40 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I dont understand the resistance to the idea of having a different cache type for challenge caches.

 

This is already answered in this thread. Maybe you skipped that part.

 

40 minutes ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Would it actually harm the way you cache? 

 

Yes it would and that is why it will not happen.

 

The best option could be subcategories for mystery caches. For example green mystery icon for field puzzles, red for not field solvable puzzles and rd icon for challenges. Then you could see the type from the color but they are all mystery caches.

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31 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

1 hour ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Would it actually harm the way you cache? 

 

Yes it would and that is why it will not happen.

 

I understand that a new cache type could cause issues with other devices / apps, and (ironically) challenge qualifications, but how would it actually harm the way you cache?

 

With or without its own icon, a Challenge is a very well defined type of cache.

 

Whereas a field puzzle is an attribute that could apply (I think) to any physical cache, even a Challenge cache.

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11 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

how would it actually harm the way you cache?

 

It would invalidate some challenges one have already qualified. For example 365 day mystery cache streak.

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35 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

It would invalidate some challenges one have already qualified. For example 365 day mystery cache streak.

 

Fair enough, but somebody changing a D/T rating or container size, or removing an attribute, or renaming a cache, or ... could have exactly the same effect.

 

I’d like to think Challenge cache COs would be understanding... :-)

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2 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

It would invalidate some challenges one have already qualified. For example 365 day mystery cache streak.

 

If you did a 365 day streak mystery challenge, and a CO deleted your find on the challenge cache because a cache that you found (when it was a mystery) cache was changed to a "challenge cache" I would take it appeals, where I am almost certain GS would tell the CO to let your log stand.   I suppose that if you were working on a 365 day mystery, and had targetted a bunch of mystery caches that became challenge caches that you might have to work a little harder to complete that challenge, but the benefit being able to look at a map and easily distinguish between a puzzle cache and a challenge cache and the ability to create a pocket query of filter a search such that it only shows challenge caches (but not puzzles) far outweighs the inconvenience it may cause to someone that chooses to take on a challenge.

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On 10/16/2018 at 12:55 AM, arisoft said:

 

How do you separate your solved mystery caches from unsolved ones?

 

For solved puzzles and challenges that I want to sign or I qualify for I utilized the corrected coordinates feature. That way the icon changes on the map and I know it is a mystery cache I want to go for. This really only works in my home area or in an area that I know I'm going to visit that I can prep.  Though most puzzle caches in my home area just end up on my ignore list if after a quick peek i don't think I have any chance at solving away they go. When I open the map specially on the app I'd prefer to only see caches I have the ability to solve in the field. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

This is already answered in this thread. Maybe you skipped that part.

 

Um.... if you say so...

 

3 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Yes it would and that is why it will not happen

 

Oh gee, I stand corrected... :blink:

 

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3 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

It would invalidate some challenges one have already qualified. For example 365 day mystery cache streak.

 

No. You qualify for a challenge when you qualify. If things change later, too late, you already completed the challenge.

Edited by funkymunkyzone
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6 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

It would invalidate some challenges one have already qualified. For example 365 day mystery cache streak.

This makes an assumption that existing "Challenge" caches would have their cache type changed retroactively. I believe that that assumption is false.

 

Can anyone point out an example of when Groundspeak has done a mass change of existing caches when they added a new cache type? Did they retroactively go back and change prior events when they added Mega and Giga event types? Or did they only apply going forward?

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28 minutes ago, Wet Pancake Touring Club said:

This makes an assumption that existing "Challenge" caches would have their cache type changed retroactively. I believe that that assumption is false.

 

Can anyone point out an example of when Groundspeak has done a mass change of existing caches when they added a new cache type? Did they retroactively go back and change prior events when they added Mega and Giga event types? Or did they only apply going forward?

 

You’re probably right, but with so many Challenges already out there, I think it would be a half-baked solution to add the cache type without recategorising those existing caches.  (I’m not holding my breath for any change!)

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9 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

So why are there different cache types at all? Why not just one cache type, one icon, and just put different words in the title to differentiate cache types?

I think we all agree that the "Challenge" in the title "solution" is a hack. The observation is that it is a solution, not that it's a better solution than a new type.

 

9 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I dont understand the resistance to the idea of having a different cache type for challenge caches. Would it actually harm the way you cache?

I'm not sure I'd call it "resistance". What I see are people discussing the various problems with implementing it because it's a change. I don't see anyone arguing that it wouldn't have been the correct solution if GS had thought of it from the start.

 

You got a response that talked about other challenges, but I've always assumed that if they added a challenge type, it would be a subtype of the existing unknown cache type, so I can't imagine that it would change a challenge cache from being an unknown type to some other type. And even if it did change the base type, while that would cause some annoying glitches in meeting some challenge requirements, I don't think it's enough of a problem to worry about. If a CO isn't sympathetic to that problem, I'd be more worried about that CO's attitude than the fact that someone somewhere couldn't claim a find on a 365 day mystery cache challenge.

 

The more likely problem is that the new type causes some GPSrs to crash or fail in other ways that make the new type interfere with people's geocaching. I'm particularly sympathetic to that concern since my GPSr's software hasn't been maintained for years, so if anyone would have an unavoidable, unfixable problem with a new attribute, it would be me. But it turns out I'm not really worried about it. If someone seriously started saying there'd be a new type, I might fake a text .GPX file just to see what happens, but I'm kinda hoping GS would do that first. But in the end, if I found a problem with my GPSr, I wouldn't necessarily think that one problem would be enough to reject the idea.

 

My guess is that the only issues will be in map icons, since a new type would not have a defined icon. I kinda suspect a new cache type would result in the cache not being displayed on the map because it would not have an icon to map it to. If that's what happens, that means that Challenge Caches which I can now see on the map wouldn't show up anymore. So that would be a negative, at least for me, since I do want to find challenge caches. Other people might consider than an advantage. 🙂

 

55 minutes ago, Wet Pancake Touring Club said:

This makes an assumption that existing "Challenge" caches would have their cache type changed retroactively. I believe that that assumption is false.

I actually don't have any idea whether they'd change existing types. It's true that there's no precedence, but I also don't think there's been a similar situation. But never mind that: let's assume it's true that they wouldn't change old cache types, that just leads to the other part of the argument against a new type: if it doesn't include challenge caches that already exist, what's the point? It's the challenge caches that already exist that people want to filter out. If only new challenge caches are given this new type, it's almost not worth the effort since it would take years before we could filter out a significant fraction of challenge caches by type.

 

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2 hours ago, dprovan said:

The more likely problem is that the new type causes some GPSrs to crash or fail in other ways that make the new type interfere with people's geocaching. I'm particularly sympathetic to that concern since my GPSr's software hasn't been maintained for years, so if anyone would have an unavoidable, unfixable problem with a new attribute, it would be me. But it turns out I'm not really worried about it. If someone seriously started saying there'd be a new type, I might fake a text .GPX file just to see what happens, but I'm kinda hoping GS would do that first. But in the end, if I found a problem with my GPSr, I wouldn't necessarily think that one problem would be enough to reject the idea.

I think it would be trivial to implement that as a user option: "Do you want Challenge Caches in your GPX identified as a separate type?" So anyone with an incompatible device could say "No", and get all challenge caches as type "Unknown", as it is now. In software development, you do such things all the time - introduce new interfaces, and if there is the slightest chance of an incompatibility, keep the older interface as an option (even if any incompatibilities were not your fault, because your spec was flexible from the beginning).

 

2 hours ago, dprovan said:

My guess is that the only issues will be in map icons, since a new type would not have a defined icon. I kinda suspect a new cache type would result in the cache not being displayed on the map because it would not have an icon to map it to. If that's what happens, that means that Challenge Caches which I can now see on the map wouldn't show up anymore. So that would be a negative, at least for me, since I do want to find challenge caches. Other people might consider than an advantage.

Uh ... I must admit that I don't understand what you want to say here. What map are you referring to? Surely not the one on geocaching.com, because there the icons are Groundspeak's and I assume that they would also provide a new icon for a new cache type. And maps in 3rd-party-apps might just display some "generic" icon when they don't recognize the cache type.

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40 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

think it would be trivial to implement that as a user option: "Do you want Challenge Caches in your GPX identified as a separate type?"

adding, documenting, advertising, and generally helping people with a new option for GPX files is certainly one possible approach. Me, I'm not too sure that's any easier than just putting up with the fact that some people's GPSr will be broken. Anyway, we agree it's one more thing that has to be dealt with, so we can add it to the list we compare with the list of benefits.

 

41 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

Uh ... I must admit that I don't understand what you want to say here. What map are you referring to? Surely not the one on geocaching.com, because there the icons are Groundspeak's and I assume that they would also provide a new icon for a new cache type. And maps in 3rd-party-apps might just display some "generic" icon when they don't recognize the cache type.

I'm talking about the map on my GPSr.

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52 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

I think it would be trivial to implement that as a user option: "Do you want Challenge Caches in your GPX identified as a separate type?"

 

Your idea can be achieved by using a new attribute. If challenge caches has own attribute, your device can show whatever it is programmed to show you in this case. If your device is not programmed for them, then  you can preprocess the GPX file to display, for example, different cache type or whatever you device can do, or download different GPX files for different devices.

Edited by arisoft

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49 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I'm talking about the map on my GPSr.

Ah, thanks. I don't know your GPS device, but Garmins have a "generic" cache icon since many years, which is shown whenever the cache type is not recognized. Has happened once or twice, when GS had a bug in their GPX-building code (e.g. when cache type "Unknown" was briefly cache type "Mystery").

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5 hours ago, Wet Pancake Touring Club said:

Can anyone point out an example of when Groundspeak has done a mass change of existing caches when they added a new cache type? Did they retroactively go back and change prior events when they added Mega and Giga event types? Or did they only apply going forward?

 

I don't think Mega and Giga cache types are good examples as there are other conditions that turn events into those types.  Also, there's nothing materially different between an event and a mega, for example, AND in terms of retroactively changing them, there would be no benefit as they are in the past, so people are not looking for them on the map, which is the issue with challenge caches.

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1 hour ago, arisoft said:

 

Your idea can be achieved by using a new attribute.

 

No it can't.  That has been answered multiple times.

 

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

 

If challenge caches has own attribute, your device can show whatever it is programmed to show you in this case.

 

That's not how devices work, at least not Garmin GPS units, and I don't think Magellans either.  It's also not how the Apps I have experience work, or the map on the website.  You might be able to, but I can't think of anything that actually does work like that...

 

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

If your device is not programmed for them, then  you can preprocess the GPX file to display, for example, different cache type or whatever you device can do, or download different GPX files for different devices.

 

So instead of just being able to see challenge caches in the map, everyone interested in seeing them has to go to a whole lot more work, which ultimately doesn't even come close to solving the problem anyway...  From what your suggesting, I'm thinking that you expect me to carry two GPS devices, one with prefiltered challenge caches loaded, and one with the opposite, just so I can tell the difference between the two.... instead of simply having a different icon on the map.

 

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4 hours ago, dprovan said:

I think we all agree that the "Challenge" in the title "solution" is a hack. The observation is that it is a solution, not that it's a better solution than a new type.

 

For me, it's not a solution at all.  It's a very laborious work around, to have to look at the name of every cache on the map instead of just seeing the icons.  The result for me is that when I am travelling, I just don't see challenge caches on the map and therefore and don't visit them - unless I have spotted them before I go (which is not a solution, as I travel extensively and don't have time to check every ? cache in every country I go to before hand).

 

4 hours ago, dprovan said:

I'm not sure I'd call it "resistance". What I see are people discussing the various problems with implementing it because it's a change.

 

I definitely call it resistance (from some).  Others are constructively discussing the pros and cons.

 

4 hours ago, dprovan said:

You got a response that talked about other challenges, but I've always assumed that if they added a challenge type, it would be a subtype of the existing unknown cache type, so I can't imagine that it would change a challenge cache from being an unknown type to some other type.

 

I would think that it would be its own type, within the "All Mystery Cache Types" and at the same level as "Mystery Cache" and "Geocaching HQ":

image.png.f597db842b7f089f8c4499f87b4b8ed1.png

 

4 hours ago, dprovan said:

The more likely problem is that the new type causes some GPSrs to crash or fail in other ways that make the new type interfere with people's geocaching. I'm particularly sympathetic to that concern since my GPSr's software hasn't been maintained for years, so if anyone would have an unavoidable, unfixable problem with a new attribute, it would be me. But it turns out I'm not really worried about it. If someone seriously started saying there'd be a new type, I might fake a text .GPX file just to see what happens, but I'm kinda hoping GS would do that first. But in the end, if I found a problem with my GPSr, I wouldn't necessarily think that one problem would be enough to reject the idea.

 

My guess is that the only issues will be in map icons, since a new type would not have a defined icon. I kinda suspect a new cache type would result in the cache not being displayed on the map because it would not have an icon to map it to. If that's what happens, that means that Challenge Caches which I can now see on the map wouldn't show up anymore. So that would be a negative, at least for me, since I do want to find challenge caches. Other people might consider than an advantage. 🙂

 

 

Nah, if there was a new type and your GPS didn't support it then it would show some generic icon, at least that's how Garmin devices work.  And as NY Paddle Cacher mentioned up further, adding a new type does not break the GPX format and does not require a new version.  So all good there.

 

Seems like the cons can largely be summed up as:

- There'd be some work migrating existing challenge caches over to the new type (although that's perfectly solvable by Groundspeak informing cache owners that if they don't get the type changed, presumably with the help of a reviewer, then they won't be able to enforce the challenge ALR - it doesn't remove the amount of work, but it makes the process manageable).

- And there might be some COs who get their knickers in a knot over past qualification for challenge caches where it seems that someone no longer qualifies, however for that we are only talking about knicker-knot-type COs, and they just need to be aware that once qualified, someone can't become unqualified.  Really, anyone CO that would get  upset by that probably shouldn't own a challenge cache in the first place, since they'd actually be getting upset about someone who qualified for their challenge as they originally intended when they created the challenge!

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2 hours ago, baer2006 said:

Ah, thanks. I don't know your GPS device, but Garmins have a "generic" cache icon since many years, which is shown whenever the cache type is not recognized. Has happened once or twice, when GS had a bug in their GPX-building code (e.g. when cache type "Unknown" was briefly cache type "Mystery").

Since Garmin units are very popular, I'm not too worried about how their gear will react.

1 hour ago, funkymunkyzone said:
6 hours ago, dprovan said:

I'm not sure I'd call it "resistance". What I see are people discussing the various problems with implementing it because it's a change.

I definitely call it resistance (from some).  Others are constructively discussing the pros and cons.

Now I'm intrigued. I can't imagine anyone resisting it, either, so I'm surprised I didn't notice it. Can you give me an example? The worst I've seen is someone complaining about the problem with challenge caches. I don't remember anyone saying there was some reason to think it was a fundamentally bad idea, so I'm wondering what they said and how I missed it.

1 hour ago, funkymunkyzone said:

I would think that it would be its own type, within the "All Mystery Cache Types" and at the same level as "Mystery Cache" and "Geocaching HQ":

Right. That's what I was saying. I can't really imagine GS would do it any other way.

1 hour ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Nah, if there was a new type and your GPS didn't support it then it would show some generic icon, at least that's how Garmin devices work.

I was speculating about what might go wrong, not claiming to know what will go wrong. But your faith is adorable: it's quite common for software developers to fail to handle an unforeseen case. XML files provide them with an astonishing number of things to overlook. I would certainly hope you're right, but I wouldn't bet on it.

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2 hours ago, dprovan said:

Right. That's what I was saying. I can't really imagine GS would do it any other way.

 

Yeah I was reasonably sure I was restating what you said but wanted to be sure... with a picture :)

2 hours ago, dprovan said:

But your faith is adorable

Well, that's as close as I can expect to be called adorable, so I'll take it...

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9 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:
11 hours ago, arisoft said:

Your idea can be achieved by using a new attribute.

 

No it can't.  That has been answered multiple times.

 

Not possible because it was new idea - not discussed earlier. Maybe you just did not get your idea correctly. Please rethink your idea to understand how clever it is.

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