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Poor use of GPS system


Gloom
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quote:
Originally posted by Gloom:

At $1.25 a mile I couldn't afford to drive to work!


 

The article that you posted actually cites the proposed tax as being 1.25 CENTS per mile. I think that a tax that encourages people to use public transportation whenever possible and think twice about the necessity of driving around in SUV's without thought shouldn't be immediatley disregarded. A cent or so a mile isn't that bad.

 

I chose LaurenCat because LaurenKittenPoniesFlowersPinkSunshineFairyMeowMeowRainbowHeartLoveBunnyKissKiss was just too F-ing long.

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quote:
Originally posted by LaurenCat:

The article that you posted actually cites the proposed tax as being 1.25 CENTS per mile. I think that a tax that encourages people to use public transportation whenever possible and think twice about the necessity of driving around in SUV's without thought shouldn't be immediatley disregarded. A cent or so a mile isn't that bad.

 


I agree, but as Uplink said, it would be too easy to block or disable. Also, this would not necessarily make people think about not driving an SUV, as the tax would be per mile and not based on gas consumed. Higher gas taxes are much easier and less expensive to implement, and are a higher tax on those who use more gas. Deisel should be taxed at the same rate, too.

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quote:
Originally posted by LaurenCat:

The article that you posted actually cites the proposed tax as being 1.25 CENTS per mile.


 

Ooops... you're right. I was just skimming the article quickly while I was supposed to be working so I didn't catch that.

 

Not to turn this into a political debate but, this is a stupid idea. Especially since they are talking about ADDING this to all the other gas/title/road fees that are already in place. Instead of using the money from that like they should, they waste it on things like light-rail to the airport or trolley lines downtown that only benefit a small amount of people. Don't get me wrong, public transportation isn't a bad thing, but when you spend ALL of the money on it instead of spreading it around and updating the road system things are just going to get worse and worse. Look at the sunset highway for example. They put the westside lightrail in there, yet you can't even drive at more than 20 MPH from noon to 7pm on any day, including weekends. Talk about waste. If they had spent more of the money on improving the highway instead of putting in the lightrail then we might not have such a problem. The problem is, lightrail (and all public transportation) is too rigid. It only works good if you live/work near it and/or get to it, AND you can spend a lot of wasted time commuting.

 

Anyway, there's my two cents... I'm done now.

 

----

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

 

[This message was edited by Gloom on December 31, 2002 at 03:54 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Gloom:

Not to turn this into a political debate but,


Too late. You can't give your $2.00 (oh, that's $0.02), and not expect others to do the same.

icon_wink.gif

Sunset Hwy has been constantly under some sort of construction since I moved here almost 10 years ago. Traffic continues to get worse, but if you look around you, most of those cars are only the drivers, and way too many of them aren't actually cars, but big trucks and SUVs.

Also, I would really hate to see how much worse the traffic would be if the crowds of people that take the MAX during peak times were driving vehicles instead. Try taking the MAX sometime during rush hours, and you may appreciate how it is helping some of the traffic problems. I hope the MAX lines continue to expand so that everyone can take better advantage of it.

The one improvement that I wish Tri-Met would make would be to have express trains that would only hit the major transit centers rather than stop at all stations.

As for it being a waste of time, I take a bus to the MAX, then a shuttle to from MAX to work. Total time is about 40 minutes. If I drive that during rush hours, it takes about 30 minutes. With the MAX I can read and/or listen to music and not have to deal with the driving idiots. It is much more relaxing.

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The government tracking YOUR every move..... does this sound bad to anyone else?

 

And if that isn't bad enough, then they would know where all the caches are hidden. Not good, unless they use a etrex patch antenna. icon_wink.gif

 

 

"If I knew how thirsty I was going to be this morning, I would have drank more last night."

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quote:
Originally posted by LaurenCat:

quote:
Originally posted by Gloom:

At $1.25 a mile I couldn't afford to drive to work!


The article that you posted actually cites the proposed tax as being 1.25 CENTS per mile.


Ironically, $1.25/mile is much closer to the external cost of driving (the cost imposed on society by drivers) during peak travel times; the average is around $0.50/mile.

 

Another good way to pay as you go is an insurance charge added to gas. It's scary how many uninsured drivers are out there.

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A mileage tax is a stupid idea. Why charge someone like me that gets 45 mpg the same as joe ford expulsion that gets 13 mpg? Doesn't seem fair for those of us that have made the concious decision to drive an economical car. I do agree that using a gps to track it--although borderline big brother--is better than kitzhaber's original plan.

 

I know this isn't going to be a very popular idea, but i'd like to see the gas tax raised. Maybe not raised to the extent of the UK or the rest of the EU, but at least as high as Canada--maybe 50 cents a gallon or so.

 

But i'm biased: My daily commute is exactly 22 feet, suckers!!!

 

all rights reserved, all wrongs reversed

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So, we had a lot of money, because of taxes from the "tech boom", right?

 

Before the tech boom, Oregon still cranked along...

 

What the heck got added to our budget between then and now, that its requiring us to scrape even more money out of our pockets? Did we need more statues in Salem?

 

Eh, I'm angry and fueled by a cold, sore back, and dxm-containing cough syrup. My arguments are worthless at this point. Bah. State got too fat, too fast.

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Hmmm... I wonder how many geocaching miles are driven in the Portland area on a weekend... or this last year. Hey, that tax from us cachers might just balance the budget! icon_biggrin.gif

 

I think it was Explosis who had mentioned last year how many miles he had racked up on his truck, and that was when he only had a couple hundred finds. It would be interesting to get an update from him now that it looks like he's over 600.

 

19973_600.gifThe adventures of Navdog, Justdog, and Otterpup

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quote:
Originally posted by oregone:

A mileage tax is a stupid idea. Why charge someone like me that gets 45 mpg the same as joe ford expulsion that gets 13 mpg? Doesn't seem fair for those of us that have made the concious decision to drive an economical car.


It makes sense from a couple of perspectives. The first is that, although your fuel-efficient car contributes less to air pollution and the oil subsidy, those are just a fraction of external costs. You still impose costs for parking, land use, congestion, accidents--all big ticket items--as well as the somewhat smaller costs of road facilities, municipal services, and the effects on other travelers.

 

Another way to look at it is that a gas tax is counterproductive. It encourages fuel-efficient cars but, as people buy less gas, it results in less revenue to support the road system. A mileage tax is much more direct: you pay according to how much you drive--what is more fair than that? That a mileage tax is so heavily criticized speaks loudly about how we have become accustomed to what economists call free goods. So long as someone else is paying for it we are happy to continue driving.

quote:
But i'm biased: My daily commute is exactly 22 feet, suckers!!!

Travel related to work comprises only 1 in 5 trips. Many people who work at home or live near employment still drive a lot for other reasons such as... geocaching! icon_wink.gif

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Besides what insurances pay out to injuries. Imagine this accident in a small car http://www.sanzones.com/truckwreck.htm

 

quote:
Originally posted by bigeddy:

quote:
Originally posted by oregone:

A mileage tax is a stupid idea. Why charge someone like me that gets 45 mpg the same as joe ford expulsion that gets 13 mpg? Doesn't seem fair for those of us that have made the concious decision to drive an economical car.


It makes sense from a couple of perspectives. The first is that, although your fuel-efficient car contributes less to air pollution and the oil subsidy, those are just a fraction of external costs. You still impose costs for parking, land use, congestion, accidents--all big ticket items--as well as the somewhat smaller costs of road facilities, municipal services, and the effects on other travelers.

 

Another way to look at it is that a gas tax is counterproductive. It encourages fuel-efficient cars but, as people buy less gas, it results in less revenue to support the road system. A mileage tax is much more direct: you pay according to how much you drive--what is more fair than that? That a mileage tax is so heavily criticized speaks loudly about how we have become accustomed to what economists call free goods. So long as someone else is paying for it we are happy to continue driving.

quote:
But i'm biased: My daily commute is exactly 22 feet, suckers!!!

Travel related to work comprises only 1 in 5 trips. Many people who work at home or live near employment still drive a lot for other reasons such as... geocaching! icon_wink.gif


 

I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either.

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quote:
Originally posted by bigeddy:

That a mileage tax is so heavily criticized speaks loudly about how we have become accustomed to what economists call free goods. So long as someone else is paying for it we are happy to continue driving.


 

You're missing the point. It's not that I don't mind paying for use of roads, but that I think our government already has enough of my money to get the job done. If they'd quit squandering it on less than efficient things and bloated bureaucracy then they'd have more than enough money to do everything we want them too (which is A LOT less than they do now) and still have money left over. No need to raise even more taxes. As Lazyboy pointed out, when is it enough? When they take 50%, 75%, 90%, 100% of your wages? At some point people have to realize that throwing more and more money into something isn't always going to make it better. If we don't put up resistance then they won't even begin to think about streamlining the system.

 

----

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gloom:

quote:
Originally posted by bigeddy:

That a mileage tax is so heavily criticized speaks loudly about how we have become accustomed to what economists call free goods. So long as someone else is paying for it we are happy to continue driving.


 

You're missing the point. It's not that I don't mind paying for use of roads, but that I think our government already has enough of my money to get the job done. If they'd quit squandering it on less than efficient things and bloated bureaucracy then they'd have more than enough money to do everything we want them too (which is A LOT less than they do now) and still have money left over.


No, I'd say I'm directly on the point and with a low EPE. Gas taxes, the primary means of financing roads, aren't even sufficient to maintain what we have, much less expand the system to meet demand. That's the gap a mileage tax is trying to fill to some extent.

 

If we add the external costs of driving, which are far more than road construction and maintenance, we see a transport system that is doesn't serve our needs, doesn't pay for itself, and shifts costs to those who do not receive the benefit of the travel.

 

If you believe present taxes are both sufficient and fair to cover transportation needs, you've been badly misled. This isn't the forum to discuss such things, but I'll point you to a couple of sources:

 

www.vtpi.org. The Victoria Transport Policy Institute is an independent research organization dedicated to developing innovative and practical solutions to transportation problems. They provide detailed economic analysis of transport policies and practices.

 

www.transact.org. The Surface Transportation Policy Project promotes transportation policy and investments that help conserve energy, protect environmental and aesthetic quality, strengthen the economy, promote social equity, and make communities more livable. They provide many white papers on current issues.

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Milage taxes on the Wet side would not have as big of an impact over there as over on the Dry side. Even without Geocaching, I still have to put around 50,000 miles on a year. Period. I can/have been assigned to work in 5 different states, unless I want to get out of my job and take a service job like most of the loggers who lost their jobs in the '90's ended up doing. icon_frown.gif

 

Man, Am I ever glad "they" got rid of most of the logging in Oregon. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Just think how much of the timber sale revenue went to pay for schools but now that the "tech" industry is here in Oregon thanks to Dr. John Kadiddlehopper, we all get to pay for schools out of our wages. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Thanks to "them" that forced "us" to buy logs from New Zealand to cut into lumber and to buy lumber from Canada and the southern states to build houses in Oregon - all shipped by rail, housing cost are going up and all the road taxes -as well as jobs and local property taxes from mills - that used to be paid for by the trucking industry are gone. icon_biggrin.gif

 

Got to stop rant, Blood pressure going up alsmost as high as the taxes. icon_mad.gif

 

logscaler.

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quote:
Originally posted by explosis:

43,023 miles on the F-250. icon_biggrin.gif


quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:

Even without Geocaching, I still have to put around 50,000 miles on a year.


Even in rural conditions the external costs of driving are up around 20 cents a mile, so that 50k miles a year generates costs of about $10k that are paid for by others. A driver in an urban area may potentially drive less but their internal costs, such as time, insurance and parking, are much higher.

 

This is not to imply you shouldn't drive mega-miles, just that there is an argument for charging by the mile even on the east side. You may feel--rightly so, perhaps--that you have already paid in other ways, but that is not a good reason for underpricing car use.

 

Now, to get some geocaching content into this, it would be interesting to compute the full cost per cache for cache owners and finders. I'll wager that transportation is a large part of it. The cost of the cache itself is small, so I'm really with you on the campaign to improve cache quality.

 

Happy driving. icon_razz.gif

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