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Bon Echo

Seasonal outdoor skating rinks

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Spent a few hours at an outdoor ice skating rink today, enjoying the winter weather and a bit of ice skating. Thought for sure there would be a place to waymark the free ice skating rink but it seems that's not the case (correct me if I'm wrong). Looks like the outdoor seasonal skating rinks were once accepted in the Ice Skating Rinks category but the current requirements would not allow for new seasonal outdoor ice skating rinks to be added:

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PERMANENCY : The Ice Rink MUST be permanent. Seasonal rinks will be denied. If the Ice rink is an outdoor one but permanent because the place is really cold all the year, add a note to the reviewer saying that this is a permanent rink.

Any interest in seasonal outdoor ice skating rinks as a category? If not, why not? It would have to be open to the public (no backyard rinks) but not necessarily free to use.

Some examples

http://www.hamiltonwaterfront.com/2011/10/24/our-rink-is-open/

http://www.grimsby.ca/Peach-King-Centre/skating-information.html

a few well-known seasonal outdoor rinks which are waymarked (grandfathered) in the Ice Skating Rink category

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMY7R_The_Ice_Rink_at_Rockefeller_Center_NYC_NY

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2ZTW_Nathan_Philips_Square_Toronto_ON_Canada

I realize this category will be limited to those parts of the world which get cold enough for outdoor ice surfaces in winter. Hopefully that's enough for the Global criteria.

There are a dozen or more within a short drive from where I live, so from here Prevalence is not a problem but I don't really know what the prevalence is in Denmark or in Germany for example.

Interesting? I think so. As interesting and as useful and bicycle repair stations IMO.

Thoughts?

Edited by Bon Echo
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Permanence could be an issue. How could we know that a seasonal rink would be back the next year?

We have them in Texas as part of scheduled yearly Christmas festivals, so I don’t know that prevalence will be an issue as much as whether these are interesting or global. 

Is it possible to reach out to the ice rink category officers and ask if they will modify their category to allow these seasonal rinks? 

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6 minutes ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

Permanence could be an issue. How could we know that a seasonal rink would be back the next year?

Most of the ones that I've seen required a decent investment to build, not something likely to be done once and then abandoned. If they are set up and maintained by municipal governments they're likely to stick around year after year (constituents get pretty cranky when you give them something then take it away a year or two later). a few around here  even have a Zamboni ice resurfacer and a garage to park it in.

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We have them in Texas as part of scheduled yearly Christmas festivals, so I don’t know that prevalence will be an issue as much as whether these are interesting or global. 

You can skate outdoors in Texas? I had no idea.

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Is it possible to reach out to the ice rink category officers and ask if they will modify their category to allow these seasonal rinks? 

Yes, I did that a few minutes before starting this thread. Well, I didn't ask then to modify but asked why they decided to exclude seasonal outdoor rinks, Seeing how they once allowed them and then (after the category was "adopted") decided to not allow them, I don't expect they will go back to allowing them again.

Thanks BB for your comments.

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Where I live, there are dozens of seasonal outdoor ice skating rinks.  There are also dozens of bike repair stations (now covered in snow until March).  I would enjoy Waymarking both categories.

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7 minutes ago, elyob said:

Where I live, there are dozens of seasonal outdoor ice skating rinks.  There are also dozens of bike repair stations (now covered in snow until March).  I would enjoy Waymarking both categories.

Of course there is a very famous one (at least in Canada) in your neck of the woods

985x554-rideau-canal-skateway-skating-ph

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47 minutes ago, elyob said:

Ok, those don’t look like ANYTHING we have in Texas!! 

Will you also allow the kind of ice skating rinks that you can skate on with ice skates, but the skating surface is made of polymer? We have skated on these many times because it doesn’t have to be cold to skate on them and they are easy to put up and take down. Small town Christmas events are likelier to have these.  We have skated on them in Fairfield, Texas and Marshall, Texas. 

No, REALLY. Polymer ice rinks are a thing:  http://www.kwikrink.com/

 

 

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In my opinion, the original category (Ice Skating Rinks) is underpopulated, especially considering the age of the category.  Is it likely that the outdoor rinks category will be more successful? I live in an active area for Waymarking.  In my city, there are 34 indoor venues that qualify in the Ice Skating Rinks category.  Only two are waymarks.

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1 hour ago, Bon Echo said:

Of course there is a very famous one (at least in Canada) in your neck of the woods

985x554-rideau-canal-skateway-skating-phBelieve it or not, I've skated on it. Was visiting a young lady in Ottawa and a friend offered to lend me his skates, which, strangely enough, actually fit me! That was back in the 1970s - a lot of water down the canal since then...

Keith

Keith

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My favorite option would be to accept them again in the old category. Probably the situation is different in other countries, but where I live almost all (I guess more than 95%) ice rinks are seasonal, even the indoor ones. All rinks in my closer area have both, an outdoor and an indoor (or at least sheltered) section. In spring they are converted to summer sports stadiums and back to ice in late autumn.

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1 hour ago, fi67 said:

My favorite option would be to accept them again in the old category.

Yes I agree and hope they will be allowed in the Ice Skating Rinks category but I'm skeptical that will happen.

But if the Ice Skating Rinks category managers stand firm in their decision, would you support the creation of a category for Seasonal Outdoor Ice Skating Rinks?

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9 minutes ago, Bon Echo said:
1 hour ago, fi67 said:

My favorite option would be to accept them again in the old category.

Yes I agree and hope they will be allowed in the Ice Skating Rinks category but I'm skeptical that will happen.

But if the Ice Skating Rinks category managers stand firm in their decision, would you support the creation of a category for Seasonal Outdoor Ice Skating Rinks?

In the absence of an alternative, we have no other choice, do we? But what happens to the indoor seasonal ones?

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40 minutes ago, BK-Hunters said:

Yahk Kingsgate Community Hall Ice Rink

Stuart Park (Ice Rink)

These are seasonal, how does the two examples differ from your proposal?

Keith

Because they are seasonal, they would no longer be accepted to the Ice Skating Rink category. They are grandfathered. But they are exactly what I have in mind for the new category. (maybe any outdoor seasonal rinks already accepted to the Ice Skating Rinks category would not be allowed in the new category, that would need to be decided upon.
 

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Instructions for Posting a Ice Skating Rinks Waymark:

Please, note that this is an adopted category so the requirements reflect changes that are not necessarily met by all of the waymarks you may see here, which are grandfathered in, of course.

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#2 - PERMANENCY : The Ice Rink MUST be permanent. Seasonal rinks will be denied. If the Ice rink is an outdoor one but permanent because the place is really cold all the year, add a note to the reviewer saying that this is a permanent rink.

 

 

Edited by Bon Echo

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I just did a quick count in the Ice Skating Rink category and found there to be around 50 (presumably seasonal) outdoor ice rinks of the 319 waymarks in that category. That's a greater percentage then I expected. Last approved outdoor rink was in 2014.

Also noticed a number of different countries represented with outdoor rinks, including Germany, Wales, Czech Republic, Netherlands, New Zealand, Finland, Hungary, United Kingdom, Canada and the United States.

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16 hours ago, elyob said:

In my opinion, the original category (Ice Skating Rinks) is underpopulated, especially considering the age of the category.  Is it likely that the outdoor rinks category will be more successful? I live in an active area for Waymarking.  In my city, there are 34 indoor venues that qualify in the Ice Skating Rinks category.  Only two are waymarks.

It's only underpopulated because you haven't gone out and gotten those other 32. Get after it!!! And take your skates!! :D

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23 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

Ok, those don’t look like ANYTHING we have in Texas!! 

Will you also allow the kind of ice skating rinks that you can skate on with ice skates, but the skating surface is made of polymer? We have skated on these many times because it doesn’t have to be cold to skate on them and they are easy to put up and take down. Small town Christmas events are likelier to have these.  We have skated on them in Fairfield, Texas and Marshall, Texas. 

No, REALLY. Polymer ice rinks are a thing:  http://www.kwikrink.com/

 

 

Very interesting, wow. Skating on plastic. I would say Yes as long as there is permanence. If it's only set up for an event and then taken down a few days or a week later, I would be hesitant to allow it. Do you know of any that are in the same place year round (even if they are not available year round to use?).

And since it's still referred to as "Ice Skating" (to distinguish from inline and roller skating), I think "Ice Skating" should stay in the category name.

11 hours ago, fi67 said:

In the absence of an alternative, we have no other choice, do we? But what happens to the indoor seasonal ones?

In Canada most indoor ice rinks are ice rinks all year long. Sometimes the ice is removed (melted) and the area is used for other things (other sports events or shows) but those tend to be short in duration and then it's back to skating.

Okay, I didn't think about indoor seasonal rinks. I suspect they are being accepted in the Ice Skating Rinks category if the waymarker does not mention of the seasonality of the ice surface. But, if indoor seasonal ice rinks are not accepted in the Ice Skating Rinks category, then I would say accept them in the proposed category. Obviously "outdoor" would need to be dropped from the name: how about "Seasonal Ice Skating Rinks"?

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Here's another one: Ice Skating Trails. They are becoming increasing popular in Ontario and no doubt in other parts as well. Basically the ice surface is a liner or loop trail instead of a round, oval or squared rink. There are a couple set up in provincial parks where they more or less flood a few forest roads in order to build the ice trail.

New category name: Seasonal Ice Skating Rinks and Trails. Now I'm starting to lean towards a new category just because an outdoor ice trail is so different from an indoor ice rink.

Here's a FPV of the ice trail as Arrowhead Provincial Park. There is 16kms of ice skating trail at Arrowhead!

 

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I have never heard of an ice skating trail. :)

The polymer rinks areusualy set up as parts of festivals by traveling vendors and taken down until the next year’s festivals roll around. We have skated on the same polymer surface 8 or more times over the years we have gone to Marshall TX for their festival (about 150 miles from our house). We have taken the girls there every few years since they were little bitties. 

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz

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Maybe it's a stupid idea, but why not expand the category to "Seasonal sports locations"? As far as I know we also have seasonal beach volleyball courts in Vienna and I wouldn't be surprised, if there were seasonal cross country ski track somewhere? This way, the category might become a little more global and more prevelant, no?

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On 12/17/2017 at 9:26 AM, Bon Echo said:

Instructions for Posting a Ice Skating Rinks Waymark:

... ...
#2 - PERMANENCY : The Ice Rink MUST be permanent. Seasonal rinks will be denied. If the Ice rink is an outdoor one but permanent because the place is really cold all the year, add a note to the reviewer saying that this is a permanent rink.

I just now noticed this - "If the Ice rink is an outdoor one but permanent..."

It would have helped immensely if that had, instead, been written to read "If the Ice rink is an outdoor one but the ice is permanent..." or similar.

That is what they want but never state specifically. Without that addition, their accepted outdoor rinks, with the requirements read literally,  can be interpreted as being identical to yours.

Keith

Edited by BK-Hunters

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In North America, many many outdoor ice surfaces are on school property.  Should we consider school property off limits, like geocaching policies?

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On 12/18/2017 at 8:46 PM, BK-Hunters said:

I just now noticed this - "If the Ice rink is an outdoor one but permanent..."

It would have helped immensely if that had, instead, been written to read "If the Ice rink is an outdoor one but the ice is permanent..." or similar.

That is what they want but never state specifically. Without that addition, their accepted outdoor rinks, with the requirements read literally,  can be interpreted as being identical to yours.

Keith

I have not yet received a response from the Ice Skating Rinks category leader, who has not logged in since October. So I went ahead and submitted an seasonal outdoor ice rink to that category to see what happens. Maybe it will be accepted - in which case a new category is not needed.

 

58 minutes ago, elyob said:

In North America, many many outdoor ice surfaces are on school property.  Should we consider school property off limits, like geocaching policies?

I know of a dozen or more seasonal outdoor rinks in this area, none of them are on school grounds (they are on municipal property). I do remember skating on one located behind a school, in the Ottawa valley no less. so it might be more a regional thing. Still, something to be discussed.

My initial reaction is that they should not be allowed - just like geocaches.

On the other hand, on weekends and holidays even school grounds become more like park settings and are often used for recreation (again, that's my experience on this end of the province) - in Hamilton many city parks are built adjacent to school grounds, without any fences to divide them. I usually find myself over at the park with the kids or the dog and there is no clear distinction for where the school property ends and the city park property begins.

Maybe just a statement in the Category Description: if the rink is accessible to the public (ie. weekends or holidays), that must be made clear in the Long Description and do not visit the rink during school hours? And if the rink is only available to school kids, then it's not truly open to the public and so it should not be waymarked. I'm only interested in rinks that are available to anyone and everyone (free or for a fee). Should I reconsider that?

Thanks for the inputs so far.

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2 hours ago, elyob said:

In North America, many many outdoor ice surfaces are on school property.  Should we consider school property off limits, like geocaching policies?

I am not comfortable personally with Waymarking at active schools, unless the waymark is of a historical marker that can be photographed tightly to exclude any children who may be around. Schools with historical markers made the decision to place it on their property, understanding that people would stop by and photograph it. 

But on the other hand, a school with a seasonal rink obviously expects and invites the public, so — maybe these could be included?

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz
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I am pretending that the outdoor ice rink is already its own Waymarking category.  Photography is a challenge.   White ice is inside the perimeter of the skating surface and white snow is outside the perimeter of the skating surface.  The image is empty.  Unlike in indoor venues, it is difficult to get the camera above ice level.  Perspective is poor.  An interesting setting and/or skaters at the ice surface will be required to make decent images.

Edited by elyob

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1 hour ago, elyob said:

I am pretending that the outdoor ice rink is already its own Waymarking category.  Photography is a challenge.   White ice is inside the perimeter of the skating surface and white snow is outside the perimeter of the skating surface.  The image is empty.  Unlike in indoor venues, it is difficult to get the camera above ice level.  Perspective is poor.  An interesting setting and/or skaters at the ice surface will be required to make decent images.

Unless you move off the frozen tundra and into the equatorial tropics of Texas, where even when it doesn't snow we have ice ---

Ice rinks

Ice tea (sweet or unsweet)

Ice Box Pie

Ice Ice Baby (no, REALLY -- Vanilla Ice is from Richardson TX)

LOL

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz
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3 hours ago, Bon Echo said:

I have not yet received a response from the Ice Skating Rinks category leader, who has not logged in since October. So I went ahead and submitted an seasonal outdoor ice rink to that category to see what happens. Maybe it will be accepted - in which case a new category is not needed.

 

That category leader has not done much Waymarking or geocaching during the past two years but that is not necessarily relevant.

While the category leader is absent, your waymark was approved.  Now what?

 

Edited by elyob

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1 hour ago, elyob said:

That category leader has not done much Waymarking or geocaching during the past two years but that is not necessarily relevant.

While the category leader is absent, your waymark was approved.  Now what?

 

yes, so it was

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMXB10_Hamilton_Waterfront_Outdoor_Rink_Hamilton_Ontario

There's really no need for a new category when it seems that seasonal ice rinks will be accepted into an existing category, despite the firm statement in the Category Description. I don't think the new category will do well in peer review unless there is a clear assertion that the seasonal rink would not be accepted into the Ice Skating Rinks category. So for now I plan to keep submitting seasonal rinks to the Ice Skating Rinks category. Maybe it was just an oversight to allow it, or maybe it was a conscientious choice. Of course, any approved waymark can later be re-evaluated and denied. I don't know, what do you suggest?

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I appreciate your thread here as it has inspired me to waymark the many indoor arenas.  However, I don't think I will spend my energies Waymarking the outdoor versions (well over 250 just in Ottawa).  It is too easy for me to imagine reviewers in the future un-approving them.

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3 hours ago, elyob said:

I appreciate your thread here as it has inspired me to waymark the many indoor arenas.  However, I don't think I will spend my energies Waymarking the outdoor versions (well over 250 just in Ottawa).  It is too easy for me to imagine reviewers in the future un-approving them.

You weren't joking:

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMXB3K_Johnny_Leroux_Stittsville_Community_Arena_Stittsville_ON

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMXB33_Mlacak_Centre_Arena_Kanata_ON

And I'll do the opposite - probably waymark one or two indoor rinks but will focus on the outdoor ones since they are more interesting to me.

Might be a good idea to take photos and coordinates of outdoor rinks as you find them - either they can be accepted in Ice Skating Rinks or in a new category (if created and approved). as far a listing requirements, I'm thinking a photo that clearly shows a skating rink (ideally with people skating on it but not mandatory) and a photo of a sign or some other form of proof (i.e. website) to show it is publicly accessible and open for a least one month per year (weather permitting).

Edited by Bon Echo

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6 hours ago, DougK said:

My objection to any seasonal category is that there's nothing to visit during much of the year.

The facility remains in place, only the ice is missing in the non winter months. Besides, one will sometimes witness a ball hockey game going on when there's no ice.

Keith

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14 hours ago, DougK said:

My objection to any seasonal category is that there's nothing to visit during much of the year.

we have Holiday Lights medieval/renaissance fairs and Festivals. After the fact, there is nothing there. Yet they are good categories.

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