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Release Notes (Website: Edit Cache Listing page) - December 5, 2017


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7 days ago we emailed the local reviewer who published the first cache in question that needs attention and have received no response. He lists on his profile page that email is the proper way to contact him. He states that reviewer notes will not be seen unless the cache is on his watch list. He states that messaging is not available for reviewers so email is the proper method of contact. Yesterday, we emailed the person that reviewed our second cache that needs attention. No answer yet. I posed a question in my last post to this thread and have gotten no response.We are wondering if we are being ignored because we asked a question that no one can answer until proper response can be retrieved from administration. It seems simple enough and we are sure the problems on these two cache pages can be quickly resolved by the right person. We hope we don't sound as if we're ungrateful for the work the reviewers or Groundspeak do. We're just trying to be a responsible cache owner and trying to resolve a problem that arose from Groundspeak's actions, and not our own. How should we proceed with getting answers?

 

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43 minutes ago, arisoft said:

The standard procedure is to move it step by step as many times as needed.

To me this doesn't seem the case. If you move three times a reviewer might ask you what you are doing as the guidelines say:

"If the new coordinates are more than 528 feet (161 meters) away from the original coordinates, you cannot change the coordinates yourself. ... If the nature of the hide and hunt has not changed, or if the original coordinates are wrong, you can ask a community volunteer reviewer to change the coordinates."

 

 

A lot of work will be waiting for the reviewers at least around here as there are still so many pre-2-miles-rule and was-still-possible-despite-2-miles fake headers left, dozens (even I have found already dozens of such geocaches) if not even hundreds in my country.

Maybe elsewhere there aren't too much left that by "we had the rules in place for some years, so we force them on all caches" only little collateral damage is caused by streamlining and reviewers don't have additional work moving a lot of headers.

What if the header was stage 1 and the final more than 2 miles away? After the header being moved nearer to the final (by whomever), will owners be allowed to add a physical stage-1-waypoint to the listing at the original coordinates instead of the old header?

What happens to Unknowns where the puzzle was to find the fitting area of the given piece of map and then proceed to the next steps/stages? Archive, because the header now has to be less than 2 miles away and no puzzle is left, because you already see where the map is? 

Edited by AnnaMoritz
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50 minutes ago, arisoft said:

The standard procedure is to move it step by step as many times as needed.

I think the problem here might be that the new edit page won't accept bogus coordinates that are more than two miles from the final but the original bogus coordinates are more than 528 feet outside that two-mile radius, so it won't accept any coordinates.

Edited by barefootjeff
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43 minutes ago, arisoft said:
21 hours ago, SerenityNow said:

I would love to do what you suggested, LivingInNarnia, but since I am moving the cache page coordinates more than 528 feet, I get this message when I try

The standard procedure is to move it step by step as many times as needed.

Am I missing something? I thought the problem was that SerenityNow couldn't edit the cache listing at all unless the posted coordinates were moved, all at once, to be within the 2 mile limit. So no underhanded step-by-step approach would work, would it?

Maybe I missed where this was made clear: is this an official policy change that existing exceptions to the 2-mile rule will not be grandfathered, or is it just an unintended side effect of the implementation of the new edit page?

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15 minutes ago, dprovan said:

existing exceptions to the 2-mile rule will not be grandfathered?

Yes, obviously no grandfathering was planned in this question, according to the link to a previous post provided by LivingInNarnia above.

"The 2 mile rule has been part of our guidelines for some time, and we are enforcing the rule (along with others) as part of the changes to the edit page. As you mention, I would recommend changing your posted coordinates so that your cache aligns with the guidelines for mystery caches outlined here: https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=277 "

Edited by AnnaMoritz
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1 hour ago, AnnaMoritz said:

Yes, obviously no grandfathering was planned in this question, according to the link to a previous post provided by LivingInNarnia above.

I think there's a difference between not planning for grandfathering and intentionally eliminating grandfathering, and I was wondering which this was. Thanks for pointing out LivingInNarnia's note (which I had, as you guessed, forgotten about), but that just presents the new restriction as a fait accompli without really saying whether it was the reason for implementing the hard limit on previously granted exceptions or just an unfortunate side effect of adding enforcement to the new edit page.

But now that I've said that, it seems obvious it had to be intentional since this is the edit page, not the submission page, so it would very rarely run into this issue in any case except caches previously granted the exception.

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1 hour ago, dprovan said:

Am I missing something? I thought the problem was that SerenityNow couldn't edit the cache listing at all unless the posted coordinates were moved, all at once, to be within the 2 mile limit. So no underhanded step-by-step approach would work, would it?

Maybe I missed where this was made clear: is this an official policy change that existing exceptions to the 2-mile rule will not be grandfathered, or is it just an unintended side effect of the implementation of the new edit page?

That is correct, dprovan. No edit to the cache page will go through without first moving the original, fake coordinates to within the 2 mile limit. That is fine, but our coordinates are far enough apart that it won't let us move them that far. And as someone mentioned, if you crawl them forward by 500 feet at a time, eventually the reviewer will step in. Perhaps I will try that though. That way I'll at least get their attention.

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2 hours ago, SerenityNow said:

7 days ago we emailed the local reviewer who published the first cache in question that needs attention and have received no response. He lists on his profile page that email is the proper way to contact him. He states that reviewer notes will not be seen unless the cache is on his watch list. He states that messaging is not available for reviewers so email is the proper method of contact. Yesterday, we emailed the person that reviewed our second cache that needs attention. No answer yet. I posed a question in my last post to this thread and have gotten no response.We are wondering if we are being ignored because we asked a question that no one can answer until proper response can be retrieved from administration. It seems simple enough and we are sure the problems on these two cache pages can be quickly resolved by the right person. We hope we don't sound as if we're ungrateful for the work the reviewers or Groundspeak do. We're just trying to be a responsible cache owner and trying to resolve a problem that arose from Groundspeak's actions, and not our own. How should we proceed with getting answers?

 

Thanks for sharing your concerns - we're not ignoring you! To update the fake coordinates for you mystery cache to align with the guidelines, there are 2 solutions outlined here in the Help Center. As your posted coordinates are more than 528ft from your Final, we would recommend contacting a reviewer as you have done.  As you know the reviewers are volunteers and I would imagine with the holidays it may take some time to receive a reply. There is additional information about the other volunteers available in your area in the regional wiki, reaching out to another reviewer may be an option for you. 

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26 minutes ago, SerenityNow said:

That is correct, dprovan. No edit to the cache page will go through without first moving the original, fake coordinates to within the 2 mile limit. That is fine, but our coordinates are far enough apart that it won't let us move them that far. And as someone mentioned, if you crawl them forward by 500 feet at a time, eventually the reviewer will step in. Perhaps I will try that though. That way I'll at least get their attention.

I have never seen any reviewer to be alerted by moving bogus many times because the only rule for bogus is that it must be within 2 mile from final and apparently the CO is just trying to fullfill this requirement.

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38 minutes ago, LivingInNarnia said:

Thanks for sharing your concerns - we're not ignoring you! To update the fake coordinates for you mystery cache to align with the guidelines, there are 2 solutions outlined here in the Help Center. As your posted coordinates are more than 528ft from your Final, we would recommend contacting a reviewer as you have done.  As you know the reviewers are volunteers and I would imagine with the holidays it may take some time to receive a reply. There is additional information about the other volunteers available in your area in the regional wiki, reaching out to another reviewer may be an option for you. 

Thanks for reply! I will wait a little longer and perhaps contact another reviewer after a while. I understand that during holiday seasons, family obligations help to keep reviewers busy but two new caches I submitted yesterday were published by this same reviewer within 24 hours of submission.

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In this case before the change only the final waypoint had to move if header was more than 2 miles from final.

Now final AND fake header have to move. Fake Header also has to move if you want to add only a hint or a spoiler pic to the listing.

And if fake header is more than 2+0.1 miles you can't do it yourself and need a reviewer for this.

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On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:28 AM, arisoft said:
On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 3:09 PM, SerenityNow said:

I would love to do what you suggested, LivingInNarnia, but since I am moving the cache page coordinates more than 528 feet, I get this message when I try -

You cannot move a geocache more than 528ft from its original position. Again I would like to know who to contact to help change them. I believe it is only a reviewer or Groundspeak that can do this for us.
 

The standard procedure is to move it step by step as many times as needed.

Just in case anyone else reads this and thinks this is a good idea, it isn't. Don't do this. This is most definitely not "standard procedure".

As LivingInNarnia said, the standard procedures for moving the posted coordinates for a cache listing more than 528 feet/161 metres are:

  • Submit a new cache listing
  • Ask a reviewer to change the coordinates

Repeatedly moving the coordinates step-by-step is an excellent way to get on the bad side of your reviewer(s).

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And you can't compare a 5/5 where it was obviously tolerated for longer that the owner moved the fake coordinates often (more often that the geocache had finds, but only very little, until the cache was forced into archive) to someone moving a header many times consecutively 0.1 mile in one direction. 

In my country reviewers pointed out many times (in local forums, blog, at events) that for more than 0.1 miles (at least for fake headers and traditionals) you need a reviewer which in my opinion didn't mean 'do it yourself in 20 steps'.

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23 hours ago, arisoft said:
On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:52 PM, The A-Team said:

Repeatedly moving the coordinates step-by-step is an excellent way to get on the bad side of your reviewer(s).

I have never seen anything like this to happen. Maybe you have some good counterexample for this https://coord.info/GC15000

Not being able to read Finnish, all I can determine from a glance at that listing is that it was a mess. Frequent coordinate updates, enables followed quickly by disables, countless seemingly-irrelevant notes, etc. Anyway, I see nothing there that would indicate the CO performed multiple consecutive coordinate updates to move the listing coordinates by greater than 528 feet.

I do have an example locally, but unfortunately the relevant logs are no longer on the listing, so there isn't any point linking to it. Based on the notification emails I was getting, here's a timeline of what happened with the cache:

  • 8:01 am - Listing published
  • 9:06 am - Coordinate update 1
  • 9:10 am - Coordinate update 2
  • 9:16 am - Coordinate update 3
  • 9:31 am - Reviewer retracts the listing

So, only 15 minutes after the coordinates had been updated for the third consecutive time, the reviewer had enough and retracted the listing. That's a pretty clear message that what the CO was doing was not acceptable. The listing was re-published a little over a week later once the coordinate issue was sorted out.

As always, work with your reviewer, not around or against them.

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1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

So, only 15 minutes after the coordinates had been updated for the third consecutive time, the reviewer had enough and retracted the listing. That's a pretty clear message that what the CO was doing was not acceptable. The listing was re-published a little over a week later once the coordinate issue was sorted out.

Maybe the CO asked to retract the listing because there was problems with coordinates? This kind of things happen occasionally. Anyway, moving bogus many times is not a problem here as you saw. Why should it be a problem at all? Especially in this case, when you can not edit cache until you move the bogus inside 2 mile range, I have no idea why anyone should be upset about this.

Edited by arisoft
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Not wishing to harp on about this 2 mile rule, but...

For my two puzzle caches moving the listed coordinates is a real nuisance and will involve slightly reworking the puzzles, but I’ll manage.  But what about GeoArt - there must be plenty of examples where the listed coords are more than 2 miles from the cache.  Will it be possible to make any changes to these caches without changing the coords (and ruining the art)?

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5 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

Not wishing to harp on about this 2 mile rule, but...

For my two puzzle caches moving the listed coordinates is a real nuisance and will involve slightly reworking the puzzles, but I’ll manage.  But what about GeoArt - there must be plenty of examples where the listed coords are more than 2 miles from the cache.  Will it be possible to make any changes to these caches without changing the coords (and ruining the art)?

Or, as one of my puzzles, what about a multi-stage puzzle with the first waypoint within the 2 mile range but the final is outside that?  It was part of a geo-art that's been more or less closed down.  Hard coding a guideline (that's supposed to have some flex) in to the page wasn't such a good idea...

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8 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

Not wishing to harp on about this 2 mile rule, but...

For my two puzzle caches moving the listed coordinates is a real nuisance and will involve slightly reworking the puzzles, but I’ll manage.  But what about GeoArt - there must be plenty of examples where the listed coords are more than 2 miles from the cache.  Will it be possible to make any changes to these caches without changing the coords (and ruining the art)?

Dunno.  I set up my (since archived) geoart within the guidelines.  I had to extend the dolphin's top fin to make it within the two-miles of the final location.  I followed the guidelines.

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18 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

But what about GeoArt - there must be plenty of examples where the listed coords are more than 2 miles from the cache.

There are some examples. I can think of some early in the Geo-art craze in the U.S.A. However for some years, reviewers have been told NO exceptions to the 2 mile limit on Mystery caches for the sake Geo-art, and to be careful about the mis-use of cache types for geo-art. That information has been part of a Help Center article  for several years.

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2 hours ago, palmetto said:

There are some examples. I can think of some early in the Geo-art craze in the U.S.A. However for some years, reviewers have been told NO exceptions to the 2 mile limit on Mystery caches for the sake Geo-art, and to be careful about the mis-use of cache types for geo-art. That information has been part of a Help Center article  for several years.

If I recall there was some geo-art in one of the New England states (I think it was in New Hampshire) which had final coordinates for some of the mystery caches well beyond the 2 mile limit.  As a result, a potential cache owner in that state that may have had no interest in doing the geo-art might have to solve every mystery in the geo-art to avoid potential proximity issues.

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On 28.12.2017 at 11:19 PM, The Jester said:

Or, as one of my puzzles, what about a multi-stage puzzle with the first waypoint within the 2 mile range but the final is outside that?  It was part of a geo-art that's been more or less closed down.  Hard coding a guideline (that's supposed to have some flex) in to the page wasn't such a good idea...

This exactly was my example that I already disussed with Frau Potter some time ago. Her final decision still was that the FINAL has to be within the 2 miles. I still think that the first stage should be the one to check, but hey, their website, their rules.

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The provision of OpenStreetMap for use in the proximity display might be great in some areas, but significant detail is missing from the areas we frequent.

The opportunity to switch between OpenStreetMap  and another reputable mapping system would be greatly appreciated please.

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I am trying to load an image so that it can be seen in the listing.  I add the image in the listing description but all I get when I reveiw the listing is a small icon.  Can someone help?

Does the cache have to be published before the image will show?

Edited by rudi63
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7 hours ago, rudi63 said:

I am trying to load an image so that it can be seen in the listing.  I add the image in the listing description but all I get when I reveiw the listing is a small icon.  Can someone help?

Does the cache have to be published before the image will show?

It is a bug. Your uploaded image is visible in the gallery, but while editing, the gallery displays zero images for some reason.

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