When will drone caches be allowed?

[+narcissa]

Lots of cache pages have exhortations and instructions for replacing the cache as found. Nothing wrong with that, but if the cache design is extremely finicky, the cache owner should expect to perform maintenance more frequently regardless of the best intentions and efforts of finders. Deleting logs over it pushes it from "reasonable request" to the troubled "ALR" territory.

I agree that deleting a log because of a failure to return the cache would be troubling, so let's agree that's not a good idea.

 

But on the other hand, getting a difficult to reach cache and then not returning it is not that much different than, say, finding a cache and then destroying the container. If someone found a cache, signed the log, and then burned the container, one could just as well say that the CO requiring that the cache not be burned is an ALR, so deleting the offending party's find log would not be allowed. Obviously there's a difference in degree -- GS would step in in the latter case, for example -- but, at the same time, I can understand the CO wanting to take action against someone who intentionally retrieved the cache in a way that would force the CO to do a maintenance visit to return it to the correct location. And I can certainly understand why a CO would threaten to delete those people's logs even though they wouldn't actually do it because it would be against the rules.

 

We all have impulses that are somewhat understandable, and yet unacceptable. Most cache owners seem to manage mild disappointment without accusing finders of being deliberately malicious, or deleting their logs.

 

A misplaced cache is probably a mistake. A deleted log probably isn't.

[Keystone]

As a reminder, the thread subject is "drone caches" and the prohibition of that idea by Geocaching HQ. Let's leave the ALR debates aside and get back on topic, thanks.

[+barefootjeff]

I don't think drones and geocaching really mix in the sense you want it to. There's too much of a risk of people who don't know how to use a drone messing up and possibly hurting people. I'm a decent drone flyer and it took my about 30 hours of training to get good enough at it to fly it confidently.

 

Also, drones can be cost prohibitive, especially if you want people to use ones with live feed back to their remotes/phones.

 

Couldn't the same be said for a cache that requires scuba gear? It can be dangerous, requires hours of practice, certification, etc and be cost prohibitive? Yet there are caches that, if attempted, require scuba experience and equipment.

 

Adding to what the other person said, the same things can also be said about caches in deep wilderness, caches on mountains, and caches in exotic tourist locales. Geocaching in any serious way can be said to be "cost prohibitive" for some people, given the investment in equipment, time, and transportation required. These are not good reasons to restrict or ban certain types of caches. Not all caches are for all people.

 

Drones are a hot topic right now because of the possibility for public nuisance, and various legal restrictions / concerns that vary widely by jurisdiction. The concept of drone caches is really cool, and maybe there are ways to develop a good framework for allowing drone caches in the game, but it's something that needs careful consideration. Not because some people can't afford drones, but because geocaching doesn't need to get pulled into the overblown negative publicity that will certainly follow if a geocacher flies a drone too close to a commercial aircraft or accidentally pesters a naked lady sunbathing in her backyard.

With scuba, wilderness and mountaintop caches, the risk is primarily to the cacher, but with drones it's uninvolved bystanders and property that are more at risk. I'm sure the person who has an out of control drone slam into them or their house wouldn't consider any resulting negative publicity to be overblown.

[+Manville Possum]

I'm sure the person who has an out of control drone slam into them or their house wouldn't consider any resulting negative publicity to be overblown.

 

Drones give new meaning to Winchester's AA Trap loads too, if you get my drift.

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

Within the US, I don't see drone caching as something that would gain any kind of popularity. (Assuming you follow the rules to the letter.)

 

I did a little research, because I might be leading a 4-H drone project, and my grandson has a drone.

 

Looking at the FAA website, there is only one regulation that concerned me. It is, "Provide prior notification to the airport and air traffic control tower, if one is present, when flying within 5 miles of an airport." Well, that does not seem too bad. There is only one airport in my area, the Coeur d'Alene Airport. The FAA conveniently provides an app (B4UFLY) that will let you know if you are within the 5 miles radius of an airport. So, I downloaded the app, and took a look. (By the way, the airport cannot prevent you from flying a drone within the 5 mile radius, they can only object.)

 

The FAA and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes an airport. According to the app, there are around a dozen airports in the Coeur d'Alene, ID area. The helipad at the hospital is an airport. So is the seaplane launch area on the lake. I looked at one that was right near my house. I didn't know it was there. Turns out, yes there was an airstrip in the past, and has been abandoned for years. It's still in the FAA database. Every little airstrip registered by a farmer or rancher is listed. These are all considered airports, and they are all over the place. I would estimate that within 30 miles of my house, at least half of that area is within 5 miles of an airport.

 

So, if I plan to drive around caching, and plan on using a drone at each cache, technically I would need to use the app to determine if there is a nearby airport. If there is one, I would have to try and find it in the FAA database (the app does not give you an ID, just a name) to get the contact information. I might need to call directory assistance for a phone number. For an airport with an ATC, this might require multiple calls to find the right number. All this before I can make that 15 minutes of flying to retrieve the cache. That's assuming a traditional, imagine a multi-cache.

[+4wheeler]

I have rescued a drone while geocaching. Was in a park and stopped to watch a drone flying around. It got stuck in a tree and the operator used up the battery trying to fly it out. I went to my truck and got out my 16 ft telescoping TOTT and got it down for them. They couldn't understand why I would be carrying such a thing around so I explained geocaching to them.

[+narcissa]

I don't think drones and geocaching really mix in the sense you want it to. There's too much of a risk of people who don't know how to use a drone messing up and possibly hurting people. I'm a decent drone flyer and it took my about 30 hours of training to get good enough at it to fly it confidently.

 

Also, drones can be cost prohibitive, especially if you want people to use ones with live feed back to their remotes/phones.

 

Couldn't the same be said for a cache that requires scuba gear? It can be dangerous, requires hours of practice, certification, etc and be cost prohibitive? Yet there are caches that, if attempted, require scuba experience and equipment.

 

Adding to what the other person said, the same things can also be said about caches in deep wilderness, caches on mountains, and caches in exotic tourist locales. Geocaching in any serious way can be said to be "cost prohibitive" for some people, given the investment in equipment, time, and transportation required. These are not good reasons to restrict or ban certain types of caches. Not all caches are for all people.

 

Drones are a hot topic right now because of the possibility for public nuisance, and various legal restrictions / concerns that vary widely by jurisdiction. The concept of drone caches is really cool, and maybe there are ways to develop a good framework for allowing drone caches in the game, but it's something that needs careful consideration. Not because some people can't afford drones, but because geocaching doesn't need to get pulled into the overblown negative publicity that will certainly follow if a geocacher flies a drone too close to a commercial aircraft or accidentally pesters a naked lady sunbathing in her backyard.

With scuba, wilderness and mountaintop caches, the risk is primarily to the cacher, but with drones it's uninvolved bystanders and property that are more at risk. I'm sure the person who has an out of control drone slam into them or their house wouldn't consider any resulting negative publicity to be overblown.

 

Meh, same can be said about using any vehicle or motorized equipment to cache. The difference is that cars, ATVs, snowmobiles, motorboats etc. are not under current and immediate scrutiny, or subject to pending and/or rapidly evolving legislation in different jurisdictions, the way drones are right now.

[+elrojo14]

Within the US, I don't see drone caching as something that would gain any kind of popularity. (Assuming you follow the rules to the letter.)

 

I did a little research, because I might be leading a 4-H drone project, and my grandson has a drone.

 

Looking at the FAA website, there is only one regulation that concerned me. It is, "Provide prior notification to the airport and air traffic control tower, if one is present, when flying within 5 miles of an airport." Well, that does not seem too bad. There is only one airport in my area, the Coeur d'Alene Airport. The FAA conveniently provides an app (B4UFLY) that will let you know if you are within the 5 miles radius of an airport. So, I downloaded the app, and took a look. (By the way, the airport cannot prevent you from flying a drone within the 5 mile radius, they can only object.)

 

The FAA and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes an airport. According to the app, there are around a dozen airports in the Coeur d'Alene, ID area. The helipad at the hospital is an airport. So is the seaplane launch area on the lake. I looked at one that was right near my house. I didn't know it was there. Turns out, yes there was an airstrip in the past, and has been abandoned for years. It's still in the FAA database. Every little airstrip registered by a farmer or rancher is listed. These are all considered airports, and they are all over the place. I would estimate that within 30 miles of my house, at least half of that area is within 5 miles of an airport.

 

So, if I plan to drive around caching, and plan on using a drone at each cache, technically I would need to use the app to determine if there is a nearby airport. If there is one, I would have to try and find it in the FAA database (the app does not give you an ID, just a name) to get the contact information. I might need to call directory assistance for a phone number. For an airport with an ATC, this might require multiple calls to find the right number. All this before I can make that 15 minutes of flying to retrieve the cache. That's assuming a traditional, imagine a multi-cache.

 

I was going to post all of the relevant information for contacting for notification on the cache page. The multi was going to be easy and could be flown to in a matter of probably three minutes. I have no problems doing work on my cache pages to let people know what they need to know. I just need to be given the opportunity.

 

And if drone caching isn't your cup of tea, no big deal. I don't want to find PowerTrails. That doesn't mean I don't mind if you do it.

 

I think there is a stronger mindset of drone hate out there than I realize. I don't see what the big deal is of flying a drone around in public.

Edited February 1, 2017 by elrojo14

[+The A-Team]

I think there is a stronger mindset of drone hate out there than I realize. I don't see what the big deal is of flying a drone around in public.

A few of the reasons have already been mentioned in this discussion (plus some more), with examples:

Privacy: Drone over North Fort Myers causes privacy concerns

Ability of the operator (or rather, the lack thereof): People keep crashing drones into Seattle's Space Needle

Safety around other aircraft/restricted airspace: Drone in 'near miss' over Birmingham Airport

Unfounded/unconscious fear due to the historic use of the term "drone" (ie. drones are military things that kill people): U.S. drone kills 2 suspected al-Qaeda militants in Yemen

 

I think part of it is that they're still relatively new, and everyone and their dog are flying them around. When that happens, you can't help but have lots of irresponsible operators that give everyone else a bad name. As time goes on and the fad dies down a bit, you'll probably end up with most operators being experienced and responsible, at which point their name will start to be restored and things like drone caching may be better accepted.

[+narcissa]

Within the US, I don't see drone caching as something that would gain any kind of popularity. (Assuming you follow the rules to the letter.)

 

I did a little research, because I might be leading a 4-H drone project, and my grandson has a drone.

 

Looking at the FAA website, there is only one regulation that concerned me. It is, "Provide prior notification to the airport and air traffic control tower, if one is present, when flying within 5 miles of an airport." Well, that does not seem too bad. There is only one airport in my area, the Coeur d'Alene Airport. The FAA conveniently provides an app (B4UFLY) that will let you know if you are within the 5 miles radius of an airport. So, I downloaded the app, and took a look. (By the way, the airport cannot prevent you from flying a drone within the 5 mile radius, they can only object.)

 

The FAA and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes an airport. According to the app, there are around a dozen airports in the Coeur d'Alene, ID area. The helipad at the hospital is an airport. So is the seaplane launch area on the lake. I looked at one that was right near my house. I didn't know it was there. Turns out, yes there was an airstrip in the past, and has been abandoned for years. It's still in the FAA database. Every little airstrip registered by a farmer or rancher is listed. These are all considered airports, and they are all over the place. I would estimate that within 30 miles of my house, at least half of that area is within 5 miles of an airport.

 

So, if I plan to drive around caching, and plan on using a drone at each cache, technically I would need to use the app to determine if there is a nearby airport. If there is one, I would have to try and find it in the FAA database (the app does not give you an ID, just a name) to get the contact information. I might need to call directory assistance for a phone number. For an airport with an ATC, this might require multiple calls to find the right number. All this before I can make that 15 minutes of flying to retrieve the cache. That's assuming a traditional, imagine a multi-cache.

 

I was going to post all of the relevant information for contacting for notification on the cache page. The multi was going to be easy and could be flown to in a matter of probably three minutes. I have no problems doing work on my cache pages to let people know what they need to know. I just need to be given the opportunity.

 

And if drone caching isn't your cup of tea, no big deal. I don't want to find PowerTrails. That doesn't mean I don't mind if you do it.

 

I think there is a stronger mindset of drone hate out there than I realize. I don't see what the big deal is of flying a drone around in public.

 

I don't see anything here about drone hating.

 

Many jurisdictions are in the process of creating and implementing laws and regulations governing drones.

 

There are some issues and risks associated with using drones.

 

These issues need to be considered if Groundspeak is going to permit drone caches on their site.

 

This isn't a kneejerk ban because someone decided they don't like drones.

[+MartyBartfast]

 

And if drone caching isn't your cup of tea, no big deal. I don't want to find PowerTrails. That doesn't mean I don't mind if you do it.

 

I think there is a stronger mindset of drone hate out there than I realize. I don't see what the big deal is of flying a drone around in public.

 

That's an interesting point you make. I must admit that my initial reaction to this thread was to object to the idea, but on consideration I can't come up with any rational reason why I don't like it. I have no objection to difficult caches, or ones requiring specialist equipment (I've done kayak and tree climb caches using equipment I've bought espescially for tree climbs), and I have no objection to ones requiring additional technology (I've done CHIRP, Wherigo, and wireless beacon cache).

 

I certainly don't hate drones, I have a few friends who use them and I've considered buying one myself, but there's something that I can't put my finger on that doesn't feel right about using drones for caching.

[+narcissa]

 

And if drone caching isn't your cup of tea, no big deal. I don't want to find PowerTrails. That doesn't mean I don't mind if you do it.

 

I think there is a stronger mindset of drone hate out there than I realize. I don't see what the big deal is of flying a drone around in public.

 

That's an interesting point you make. I must admit that my initial reaction to this thread was to object to the idea, but on consideration I can't come up with any rational reason why I don't like it. I have no objection to difficult caches, or ones requiring specialist equipment (I've done kayak and tree climb caches using equipment I've bought espescially for tree climbs), and I have no objection to ones requiring additional technology (I've done CHIRP, Wherigo, and wireless beacon cache).

 

I certainly don't hate drones, I have a few friends who use them and I've considered buying one myself, but there's something that I can't put my finger on that doesn't feel right about using drones for caching.

 

I like the idea of caches designed specifically for drones more than I like the idea of someone using a drone for a cache that's meant to be a difficult hike or climb. Not that I would want to stop someone from using a drone to cache, it's just something I kind of smile and roll my eyes at. Crazy kids and their technology, in my day we climbed that tree with our hands and feet!

 

But I really don't think it's the idea of drone caching that is behind the ban. It's all the complicated legality. With all these years of bomb threats, and private property concerns, etc. I can't blame them for approaching the issue with caution.

 

And the fact that you can't place a cache specifically for a drone doesn't mean you can't choose to use drones.

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

But I really don't think it's the idea of drone caching that is behind the ban. It's all the complicated legality. With all these years of bomb threats, and private property concerns, etc. I can't blame them for approaching the issue with caution.

/quote]

 

I agree. I'm not for or against drone caches. But, when you add drone caches, you add a a new set of 'land managers' to the mix. You are adding a country's air space, which is usually tightly controlled. This is illustrated in the US with the FAA's regulations on drones.

 

On the ground, we have parking lots, trail heads, marked trails, fences, etc. to let us know where we are allowed, and not allowed to be. With drones, you can easily overfly private property, or restricted airspace, which may be considered trespassing or worse. On the ground, I can post "No Tresspassing" signs. Kinda hard to do that in the air. (Note to self, start a business creating "No Trespassing" helium balloons with long strings.)

 

As narcissa mentioned, it's all the complicated legality.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

I think there is a stronger mindset of drone hate out there than I realize. I don't see what the big deal is of flying a drone around in public.

A few of the reasons have already been mentioned in this discussion (plus some more), with examples:

Privacy: Drone over North Fort Myers causes privacy concerns

Ability of the operator (or rather, the lack thereof): People keep crashing drones into Seattle's Space Needle

Safety around other aircraft/restricted airspace: Drone in 'near miss' over Birmingham Airport

Unfounded/unconscious fear due to the historic use of the term "drone" (ie. drones are military things that kill people): U.S. drone kills 2 suspected al-Qaeda militants in Yemen

 

I think part of it is that they're still relatively new, and everyone and their dog are flying them around. When that happens, you can't help but have lots of irresponsible operators that give everyone else a bad name. As time goes on and the fad dies down a bit, you'll probably end up with most operators being experienced and responsible, at which point their name will start to be restored and things like drone caching may be better accepted.

 

What are you saying - the Reviewers have them now?

[Keystone]

What are you saying - the Reviewers have them now?

I guess we couldn't keep that a secret forever. Yes, each reviewer is issued a drone for checking out new cache locations prior to publication -- it's how we detect bad coordinates and other issues -- and also for investigating "Needs Archived" logs.

 

We've found that the drones are far more stealthier than the black helicopters which they replaced. And, with the worldwide growth of geocaching, the drone solution is far more scalable.

[+Manville Possum]

I remember a few months ago geocachers were concerned that the Pokemon Go players were a threat to our game by causing unwanted attention from the general public.

 

With the many bomb scares linked to geocaching, all we need now is to be known as the people that caused a plane crash or downed a drone into something that caused harm.

 

Sorry, but I don't think geocachers are responsible enough for Groundspeak to promote/allow Drone Caches. I've seen the "Scorched Earth" cachers and how they tear stuff up to find a geocache. Now make a cache that requires drones? No, I don't think it's a good idea.

[+Team DEMP]

If we based what could be done on the responses for those that post here, the traditional geocache would receive opposition.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Team DEMP

[+Manville Possum]

If we based what could be done on those the responses for those that post here, the traditional geocache would receive opposition.

 

You post here too.

[+elrojo14]

Sorry, but I don't think geocachers are responsible enough for Groundspeak to promote/allow Drone Caches. I've seen the "Scorched Earth" cachers and how they tear stuff up to find a geocache. Now make a cache that requires drones? No, I don't think it's a good idea.

The classic elitist view that since there are a few bad apples, no one should be allowed to do something.

 

Because crashing your $400+ drone is fun. And breaking the law is fun. And anyone that has a drone must be a criminal or wants to be one.

 

So much for liberty and personal responsibility.

[+narcissa]

So much for liberty and personal responsibility.

 

Geocaching.com is a membership-based website, not a republic. If you want to publish drone caches and you aren't willing to wait for Groundspeak to figure things out, you are free to do so on your own platform.

[+Manville Possum]

Sorry, but I don't think geocachers are responsible enough for Groundspeak to promote/allow Drone Caches. I've seen the "Scorched Earth" cachers and how they tear stuff up to find a geocache. Now make a cache that requires drones? No, I don't think it's a good idea.

The classic elitist view that since there are a few bad apples, no one should be allowed to do something.

 

Because crashing your $400+ drone is fun. And breaking the law is fun. And anyone that has a drone must be a criminal or wants to be one.

 

So much for liberty and personal responsibility.

 

No, I enjoy playing with drones too. I just think it's a bad idea and would attract unwanted attention to geocaching.

 

But, if you were to fly a drone over my private property air space I would break out the Anti-Aircraft gun and down that sucker.

 

We were into RC aircraft way before this recent drone fad, and there are special air strips and places we can fly them, but I don't think that we can compare RC aircraft to drones that everbody and their dog has one now.