+ThePetrifiedWood Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 There is a puzzle cache in my area that I can't seem to figure out. It was placed by 2 cachers, and I sent them both emails through the site. Neither has responded. In my emails, I stated that I did not want a spoiler, but would like to know if I was even on the right track at all. I outlined my different thoughts on how to solve the cache. Anyhow, no response from either of them. In the logs, several of the finders have received hints from other finders, but they appear to know each other already. I am not sure if it would be considered poor etiquette to contact a random cacher for a hint on a cache they found. It just seems like the cache owner would be the logical person to contact. In any case, both of the CO's profiles indicate they have visited the site since I sent my emails a couple of weeks ago, so presumably at least one of them got the email. They both appear to be active, high find count cachers with multiple hundreds of finds. I just want to know the prevailing protocol so I don't embarrass myself sending emails that aren't going to get responses. Particularly since I am a new cacher in the area and don't want to make a bad impression. Quote Link to comment
+jellis Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 This has been asked many times and someone might even show you some examples. Yes I always respond. I sometimes give them a nudge, some more then that and some the coords if they still can't figure it out. Quote Link to comment
+MMaru Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I'm not a CO, but I don't think you're out of line at all. What I'd suggest, if this is an option for you, is to attend an event. If the COs are there, great! Touch base with them. If not, that's fine, too! In my experience, cachers love to share, and no doubt someone who has found the cache previously will be more than happy to help you out. Then you get to solve the cache and make a future contact point. Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) I just want to know the prevailing protocol so I don't embarrass myself sending emails that aren't going to get responses. Particularly since I am a new cacher in the area and don't want to make a bad impression. There are several reasons why a PM message may not work well. It is possible the recipient didn't get your message, or you didn't get their reply -- that it became lost in the system. PM has more of a learning curve than most seem to realize. Can you send an email directly to their email address listed on their Profile (if there is an email address)? If so, even if not, try sending them your email address and ask that they use it for the reply. There is a new web-based Message Center on Geocaching.com, where people can see if messages are waiting just by visiting the site, and can respond there. MC might be worth a shot. But lots of actual Geocachers don't check their email, or have problems with email (or with PM as I mentioned). One idea that I've tried with some success is, go to a Geocaching Event and ask people in person. Be warned, some of them don't remember their own caches. Edited April 24, 2015 by kunarion Quote Link to comment
+ThePetrifiedWood Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) I sent an email through the link on their profile pages. Do you mean the forum PM system? I did notice the message feature but I haven't tried that out yet to see how I works. As luck would have it, this weekend there is an event cache in my area. But it also happens to be the same weekend we have company coming in from out of town to stay with us, AND it is the annual spring camp out weekend for the local ham radio club I am part of. The club camp and the event cache are only a few miles apart so I am going to try to slip away and visit for a couple of hours if I can. Edited April 24, 2015 by ThePetrifiedWood Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) I sent an email through the link on their profile pages. Do you mean the forum PM system? The PM link on the Profile page usually just says "send email" which is in fact an email "from" Geocaching.com, after it was processed and sent from the site. It's web site to email, then the reply is the same thing again, web site to email, if the respondent did it correctly -- replying via PM. Which they must do in that case. I've watched messages being lost this way, live as it happened, and of course documented this effect here in the Forum. Worse, unless you've selected to show your email address, the PM is emailed "from noreply@geocaching.com". Most people have an email address that is not "noreply@geocaching.com", so the respondent may click and not notice the reply cannot be delivered. And the best part is, replies sent to "noreply@geocaching.com" are killed, they don't cause any error messages to be returned. If that is the way it happened (there are more ways), when you sent your PM, they may have even responded with the answer you seek... you just never received it. They may be wondering why you never even thanked them for the answer. So anyway, there's a lot going on with the message system, and Groundspeak is currently working on new ideas about that. But there's also the issue that a lot of people just plain don't do email so much. Edited April 24, 2015 by kunarion Quote Link to comment
+steben6 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 We always answer emails/pms about our puzzle caches because we do like people to find our caches! Not all COs will respond for whatever reason. We have also emailed COs of puzzles we were trying to solve. Sometimes they answer, sometimes they don't. You might considering emailing a cacher who has logged the puzzle cache recently, explaining that you've tried to contact the CO with no luck, and see if they would give you a nudge. This has worked for us before, too. Some COs don't ever share hints on their puzzles. That's just the way they roll. Quote Link to comment
+WarNinjas Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 If you contacted us for one of our puzzles we would let you know how to solve it for sure. Some CO might not be the same. Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I just want to know the prevailing protocol so I don't embarrass myself sending emails that aren't going to get responses. Particularly since I am a new cacher in the area and don't want to make a bad impression. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for help. I think most of us have more respect for COs that provide help, but who knows why they aren't responding? If you've given them a reasonable chance, like a couple weeks, you could start asking previous finders for help if it's really important to you. But since you're a newcomer to the area, I suggest you just forget about it for a while. Most likely, there are local approaches to puzzles that will make more sense to you after you've done a few others. Quote Link to comment
+redsox_mark Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I always respond. I'm pleased that someone has taken interest in my cache, and it is an opportunity to "connect" with another cacher. I've also asked questions to other puzzle cache owners, and generally have received a response. If I don't get a response then that's fine. If I'm really stuck I'll either put it aside, or ask for help from another finder. Quote Link to comment
+Seaglass Pirates Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 In short No and Yes. I wouldn't respond now but would state that on the page. Simply because people have been hilariously ingenious in prying out answers from various cachers to get to the cache without solving the puzzle as intended. One technique is asking if they are on the right track. If you reply yes they have thier answer. If you reply no they know they are not they have some of the answer. Some have taken that hint or help and gone to another cacher stating what they know. As if they gathered that themselves. They collaborate. Then the original asker takes the new info he has learnt and approaches another cacher with that extra info and they collaborate. Then it's back to the co with all the extra progress, none of which was his, and pesters for further help using the effort hey have made as collateral for that help. Brilliant but a bit sly ... then claims FTF and the geocon FTF prize. Then we have had cache tours inc (unofficial), taking visitors on their way past. We are just as guilty giving friends hints for others puzzles. Really it undermines difficulty ratings and the hard work by the CO. But it goes on. So we have helped people who have emailed us but only after a year or so after it was found and we are not so precious about it. If you want plenty of finds on a puzzle make it easier. If you want it to live up to its 5/5 status don't give out hints to others I guess but more importantly don't ask for them lol. If they are a friend and they phone you up and keep persisting for further info and you don't want to give it to them - lie lol. Chances are they will never know because someone like that will have a few people on tap to pester about it. They'll claim a find. And assume it was part of the puzzle which they had no intention of delving into. Keeps the peace. Quote Link to comment
+Team Microdot Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 In short No and Yes. I wouldn't respond now but would state that on the page. Simply because people have been hilariously ingenious in prying out answers from various cachers to get to the cache without solving the puzzle as intended. One technique is asking if they are on the right track. If you reply yes they have thier answer. If you reply no they know they are not they have some of the answer. Some have taken that hint or help and gone to another cacher stating what they know. As if they gathered that themselves. They collaborate. Then the original asker takes the new info he has learnt and approaches another cacher with that extra info and they collaborate. Then it's back to the co with all the extra progress, none of which was his, and pesters for further help using the effort hey have made as collateral for that help. Brilliant but a bit sly ... then claims FTF and the geocon FTF prize. Then we have had cache tours inc (unofficial), taking visitors on their way past. We are just as guilty giving friends hints for others puzzles. Really it undermines difficulty ratings and the hard work by the CO. But it goes on. So we have helped people who have emailed us but only after a year or so after it was found and we are not so precious about it. If you want plenty of finds on a puzzle make it easier. If you want it to live up to its 5/5 status don't give out hints to others I guess but more importantly don't ask for them lol. If they are a friend and they phone you up and keep persisting for further info and you don't want to give it to them - lie lol. Chances are they will never know because someone like that will have a few people on tap to pester about it. They'll claim a find. And assume it was part of the puzzle which they had no intention of delving into. Keeps the peace. I see precisely these sorts of things all the time - especially the hint building technique. I recall one day receiving a text message from a cacher who I knew would be working as part of a group on a puzzle and gave them a tiny incremental nudge. In less than five minutes I had another text from another member of the group who came back with I'm thinking along these lines - which was precisely the information I'd jus given out. I just laughed and told them to ask the person who sent the first text message. Didn't get any more text messages after that I will provide small nudges on my own puzzles to people who I believe are genuinely working to solve them because they value the puzzle - especially those who have enough respect to keep the solution to themselves when they get it and not see it as an opportunity to give the puzzle away to others. More often people just want the find and couldn't care less about the puzzle or the effort that went into its creation. In fact in a lot of cases it ends up that the *cough* solver has invested less time and effort than the person who made the puzzle for their enjoyment, which leaves the CO in negative equity so to speak and realising that there's no point investing time making any more puzzles. Quote Link to comment
+J Grouchy Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 First: yes. I do respond. If it hasn't been solved yet, I generally don't "help" them...but I always at least acknowledge their efforts. If it has been solved already, I don't mind nudging them the right direction if they ask for it. Second: If you asked the COs and got no response, I see no problem emailing a previous finder (the more recent the find, the more likely they will remember how they solved it). The worst thing that could happen is they ignore you or say no. Make sure you say that you tried contacting the COs but got no reply and that you aren't looking for the answer, but only to find out if you are on the right track with your solution. Quote Link to comment
+rosebud55112 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I always try to respond to people working on my puzzles. It doesn't always happen right away, but I do think it is important for the solver to contact the CO rather than a previous solver. When someone contacts me about a puzzle, I want to know what they have already tried, what approaches they have taken, and what they are having issues with. I'd also like to know what type of help they want: "Yeah, that looks good", "Have you tried this?", or "Here's a sledgehammer to your brain-the coords are:". I do that not because I am a control freak, but because it helps me a a puzzle owner for this puzzle and potential future ones. As a puzzle creator, working backward from the solution to the puzzle, it is obvious to me what the steps are to solving it. That leads to a blind spot sometimes, in that I may accidentally set up something that has a blind alley, or a separate approach with potential other valid coordinates. If I want a red herring in my puzzle, that's one thing; but if I never see the possibility because I'm blinded to it, that's something different. When a solver skips coming to me and explaining what they've done, but contacts another solver who happened to take the correct pathway, I never get the chance to correct the error and may wind up making a similar error in a future puzzle. Solvers have a communal obligation to at least try to work with the COs so everyone can be sure the puzzle really is only what the CO intended it to be. Some COs will not respond to request for help or other contacts. Some people are jerks. The solver still has the obligation to contact the CO first, and previous solvers should be recommending this as well. So give me a little time to respond, and I will try to get back to you. Please do that before asking others. That's not saying that I have any issue for people working in groups to solve a puzzle together. I think that's a great social activity (and do that a lot for solving NPL puzzles). But if you are stuck, you may have uncovered a flaw in the puzzle the CO needs to know about, and that won't happen if you don't make the contact. Quote Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Thanks for this reminder. I have one Mystery/Puzzle cache. I always answer questions that I receive about it. My goal for the cache is for people to have fun, not to get frustrated. But I just realized that someone emailed me a week and a half ago with a question and I'd totally forgotten to email them back. I just remedied that. I agree with what some others have said. If you tried to contact the owners and it's been a while, it should be fine to contact others who have solved the puzzle. Especially if you don't ask for answers right out, only hints. If you can make it to part of that event, even better. Quote Link to comment
+NanCycle Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Are you certain that the box to include your email address with the original message was checked? I do not respond to emails that don't make it easy to respond. Or I might respond and not notice that I'm actually sending it to "noreply@geocaching.com." Then I think I replied and you think I didn't. That said, I have one puzzle in particular that I have sent a lot of hints on--anyone who asks gets an answer (within the limits stated above.) OTOH I don't generally ask for hints on puzzles; I figure if I can't solve it, well then I can't solve it. Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) I don't generally ask for hints on puzzles; I figure if I can't solve it, well then I can't solve it. +1. I place it at the bottom of the pile, and instead hunt one of the hundred bahzillion (give or take) other caches nearby. Someday, maybe I'll have that "AHA" moment, or the CO asks me at an event if I've found his puzzle that uses resistor color codes or whatever (huh, so that's what it is...). Most often, I'm out with other cachers, they already have the coords, and we all find and sign logs, then it's off to the next one at breakneck pace. And I never did solve that puzzle. And I kinda wish I'd just been allowed to let it sit unfound, so I could eventually have the fun of solving it myself. OK, no I don't. To the OP, please specify in your email (so you sent it using actual email to a known email address, and included your email address for the reply) what it is that you want. I often send a nudge, not realizing a requester in fact wanted all the info to access and sign the log. I also specify that if my hint is insufficient, to tell me if he wants the whole thing revealed (frankly, that's typically the case). My puzzles are not designed to be all that tough, and I'd hate to spoil it for people if all they want is a nudge. Edited April 24, 2015 by kunarion Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Are you certain that the box to include your email address with the original message was checked? I do not respond to emails that don't make it easy to respond. Or I might respond and not notice that I'm actually sending it to "noreply@geocaching.com." Then I think I replied and you think I didn't.+1 I just checked my email archive, and discovered several messages from me to the noreply@geocaching.com address. Some I had noticed and had resent to the correct address. But some I hadn't. In general, if you'd like a reply, then make it easy for people to reply to you. And yes, I reply to emails about my puzzle cache. Some of those replies have ended up as part of the hints in the cache description. I now tend to be careful about asking for information from cache owners. More than once I've been sent a complete spoiler when I wanted just a confirmation of some detail, or when I was simply trying to provide information to the CO. Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I always do. My puzzles caches are to be enjoyed and (I hope) to provide something new the cacher didn't already know. If somebody cares enough to email me, I will always respond. But then, my attitude towards puzzle caches is different from what often appears to be the case. I don't see them as a way to prove I am smarter than everyone else. Quote Link to comment
+lamoracke Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I also do as well. Folks are going to get answers from other folks anyway so I am happy to help with light hints to downright spoilers if they want them. Quote Link to comment
+The VanDucks Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 We have placed several puzzle caches that are very easy - since we hardly ever figure out the hard puzzles in our area, we wanted to give other puzzle-challenged cachers a break! But even our easy ones can be tricky, so we're happy to give a hint. However, I have to say that I can usually tell from the email sent by a cacher that they have tried to figure it out before they contacted us. Be sure your email asking for help does include some details about what you've tried to do. You might not get a reply if the owner just thinks you want the answer without any effort on your part. Quote Link to comment
+ThePetrifiedWood Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 (edited) To give a little more detail... This particular cache is almost certainly hidden along the top of a relatively narrow ridge line, only a few hundred feet wide, perhaps a bit more and it runs roughly north-south. This significantly narrows the range of longitude coordinates. There are 2 hints. One of them specifies the type of tree the cache is hidden under. The cache page has a picture of dinosaurs, and the coordinates have their digits replaced with names of dinosaurs. I can know the first part of the coordinates based on the rule that it must be less than 2 miles from the fake coordinates. Since I know the degrees and the first digit of the minutes, It was possible to extrapolate some of the other digits because they shared the same dinosaur names as the first 3 digits of the coordinates. The issue I am having (and the one I wanted a nudge for) is I cannot figure out how they associated a particular Dino name with a particular numeral. It doesn't appear to be alphabetical, by geologic era, or by order in the picture on the page. The other hint on the page was that a particular dinosaur has 2 names. I then ran the image through a steganography program using the alternate name for the dinosaur as the key, and the program says there is nothing encrypted in the picture. There are several find logs, most of which are thanking previous finders for help. One of the find logs mentions that he doesn't believe there is a complete solution to the puzzle. I believe this person found the cache by brute force. In other words, knowing there is only one missing digit in the N coordinate, and knowing that the W coordinate must fall on the ridge, one need only look along 3 possible latitudes on the ridge for a tree of the type mentioned in the hint. But the FTF log mentions the coordinates are "spot on" which leads me to believe there is, in fact, a complete solution to the puzzle. There is one other log on the cache, a note by someone asking for help. There is no response on the page, and they never logged it as found. That note made me consider the possibility that the cache owner just might not be into giving hints. Edited April 25, 2015 by ThePetrifiedWood Quote Link to comment
+narcissa Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Yes, I always reply to questions about any of my caches. I try not to give everything away right off the top, but if someone is frustrated I'll ask if they want a bigger spoiler. I'd rather see someone find my cache with help than not find it at all. Quote Link to comment
+mizdirection Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I always answer questions about my puzzle caches. Allow me to add, that my puzzles are 101 types that were placed to help new cachers start exploring the ? icons. I will not help with another CO's puzzle unless I know that they are inactive. If you were to email me about a FTF on one of my puzzles, I would simply say as soon as it is found, I will help. Quote Link to comment
+Team GPSaxophone Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 To give a little more detail... This particular cache is almost certainly hidden along the top of a relatively narrow ridge line, only a few hundred feet wide, perhaps a bit more and it runs roughly north-south. This significantly narrows the range of longitude coordinates. There are 2 hints. One of them specifies the type of tree the cache is hidden under. The cache page has a picture of dinosaurs, and the coordinates have their digits replaced with names of dinosaurs. I can know the first part of the coordinates based on the rule that it must be less than 2 miles from the fake coordinates. Since I know the degrees and the first digit of the minutes, It was possible to extrapolate some of the other digits because they shared the same dinosaur names as the first 3 digits of the coordinates. The issue I am having (and the one I wanted a nudge for) is I cannot figure out how they associated a particular Dino name with a particular numeral. It doesn't appear to be alphabetical, by geologic era, or by order in the picture on the page. The other hint on the page was that a particular dinosaur has 2 names. I then ran the image through a steganography program using the alternate name for the dinosaur as the key, and the program says there is nothing encrypted in the picture. There are several find logs, most of which are thanking previous finders for help. One of the find logs mentions that he doesn't believe there is a complete solution to the puzzle. I believe this person found the cache by brute force. In other words, knowing there is only one missing digit in the N coordinate, and knowing that the W coordinate must fall on the ridge, one need only look along 3 possible latitudes on the ridge for a tree of the type mentioned in the hint. But the FTF log mentions the coordinates are "spot on" which leads me to believe there is, in fact, a complete solution to the puzzle. There is one other log on the cache, a note by someone asking for help. There is no response on the page, and they never logged it as found. That note made me consider the possibility that the cache owner just might not be into giving hints. Puzzle Solving 101 - Use the first few digits of the lat and long to give you a head start in solving the puzzle. It doesn't apply to all puzzles, but I sure like it when it does! It seems like you've done your due diligence - trying to solve the puzzle on your own and then contacting the cache owner. I'd say you've got the OK to contact a recent finder and see if they can give you a hint on how to finish solving the puzzle. Make it clear you aren't looking for a shortcut to getting around the puzzle but that you just need a nudge to get on the right track. Quote Link to comment
+bflentje Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I think that if you're not willing to help others solve your puzzles (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding puzzle caches. Quote Link to comment
+Team Microdot Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I think that if you're not willing to help others solve your puzzles (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding puzzle caches. Why? Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Hmm... I think that if you're not willing to help others complete your challenges (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding challenge caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others spot your camouflage (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding camouflaged caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others climb your trees (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding tree-climbing caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others paddle your river (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding paddle caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others sign your logs (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding log-signing caches. Yeah, that makes sense... Quote Link to comment
+Team Microdot Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Hmm... I think that if you're not willing to help others complete your challenges (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding challenge caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others spot your camouflage (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding camouflaged caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others climb your trees (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding tree-climbing caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others paddle your river (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding paddle caches. I think that if you're not willing to help others sign your logs (after FTF has been established), that there should be a moratorium on you hiding log-signing caches. Yeah, that makes sense... Couldn't have put it better myself Still - I expect bflentje was just joking Quote Link to comment
+bflentje Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 If y'all cached as much as you sit here slinging insults and debate, you would have picked up on the idea that it was a joke. Quote Link to comment
+Team Microdot Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 If y'all cached as much as you sit here slinging insults and debate, you would have picked up on the idea that it was a joke. So I was right - you were joking Quote Link to comment
+bflentje Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 If y'all cached as much as you sit here slinging insults and debate, you would have picked up on the idea that it was a joke. So I was right - you were joking Quote Link to comment
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