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Pause on New Challenge Caches

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Well, actually, Groundspeak hasn't said if the majority of the appeals are from finders that get their smiley deleted because they haven't met the challenge, or if it is from cache submissions that are rejected by the reviewers. I am guessing that both types contributed to the moratorium.

 

"appeals" is the staff process to determine if a cache can be published. So appeals relating to "finder that get their smiley deleted" is zero.

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Well, actually, Groundspeak hasn't said if the majority of the appeals are from finders that get their smiley deleted because they haven't met the challenge, or if it is from cache submissions that are rejected by the reviewers. I am guessing that both types contributed to the moratorium.

 

"appeals" is the staff process to determine if a cache can be published. So appeals relating to "finder that get their smiley deleted" is zero.

 

Are you sure about that? I remember going through the appeal system for a log on a challenge cache (with fuzzy requirements that were later "adjusted").

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Well, actually, Groundspeak hasn't said if the majority of the appeals are from finders that get their smiley deleted because they haven't met the challenge, or if it is from cache submissions that are rejected by the reviewers. I am guessing that both types contributed to the moratorium.

 

"appeals" is the staff process to determine if a cache can be published. So appeals relating to "finder that get their smiley deleted" is zero.

 

Are you sure about that? I remember going through the appeal system for a log on a challenge cache (with fuzzy requirements that were later "adjusted").

 

A quote from Keystone (#13 from the "I don't think challenge caches are the problem" thread):

 

"See the moratorium announcement about how challenge caches constitute a disproportionate percentage of appeals volume. Most of the harder appeals work is on the new cache submission side and not on the deleted find side. Bear in mind that the challenge cache typically doesn't reach the appeals desk at Geocaching HQ until after several rounds of discussion with the local reviewer. As a group, the reviewers were finding that challenges represented a disproportionate percentage of "hard reviews." This is true regardless of whether an individual reviewer "likes" or "hates" challenge caches as a player. I don't like five-star math puzzles, but they tend not to be very difficult for me to review, so there is no problem I've needed to escalate. "

 

I think it implies that most of the work or "problems" that led to this moratorium are review side, not log side....I think this is what you are reaching for an answer on?

Edited by Uncle Alaska

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A certain other geocaching site just announced a rather clever solution to the Challenge Problem: Locationless Challenges.

 

1. Gets rid of the ALR issue - no more physical caches you cannot Find even when you find.

2. Still counts as a Smiley, which I think we can all agree is more desirable than a Souvenir or Challenge Star.

3. No need for repeat Challenge caches - one Locationless Challenge covers the whole world for a certain type of Challenge.

 

To further keep things under control, the Challenges are published under an admin account rather than being allowed for any account which is probably necessary to avoid the avalanche of appeals that Groundspeak already deals with. Given that this site has far more cachers than that site it could be a tricky situation; you might need special Challenge Reviewers to verify where those logging meet the qualifications, although many popular Challenge Caches could have their qualifying check be automated.

 

Thoughts on this solution?

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Thoughts on this solution?
Other than the "counts as a smiley" part, it sounds a lot like the various proposals to replace challenge caches with a badge system.

 

I think badges for the grid-based challenges could be awarded automatically once someone completed the relevant grid. Ditto for streak challenges, and any others that can be automatically verified. But even if they aren't automatically awarded, since they can be automatically verified, they could be owned by an admin account. No one needs to manually verify that those who post Challenge Completed logs have actually met the requirements.

 

For other challenges, they will need an active owner who is willing to verify that loggers have actually met the requirements. But maybe the responsibility of such verification will encourage people to migrate to the automatically verifiable challenges instead.

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I think most of the drama surrounding challenge caches could be fixed in 2 easy steps.

1: REQUIRE the co to demonstrate that they have fulfilled the requirements of the challenge Before the cache is published. No exceptions. That should cut down 90% of frivolous challenge spew and give the reviewers a break (at least around here it would).

2: Give challenge caches their own icon, as a subset of Mystery caches. That way people can filter them out to either ignore or seek out, however they wish. (Yes, we all want that).

We don't need to turn challenge caches into virtual wannbes, or take away the physcal cache at the end, or hand out badges, or any of the other things I've seen tossed around as fixes.

Challenge caches have ALRs. If you stop by to sign the log before you qualify, you write a NOTE until you qualify, and then you log it as a find when you have met the requirements. Is that really so hard to understand?

Edited by BlueMoth

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I think most of the drama surrounding challenge caches could be fixed in 2 easy steps.

1: REQUIRE the co to demonstrate that they have fulfilled the requirements of the challenge Before the cache is published. No exceptions. That should cut down 90% of frivolous challenge spew and give the reviewers a break (at least around here it would).

2: Give challenge caches their own icon, as a subset of Mystery caches. That way people can filter them out to either ignore or seek out, however they wish. (Yes, we all want that).

We don't need to turn challenge caches into virtual wannbes, or take away the physcal cache at the end, or hand out badges, or any of the other things I've seen tossed around as fixes.

Challenge caches have ALRs. If you stop by to sign the log before you qualify, you write a NOTE until you qualify, and then you log it as a find when you have met the requirements. Is that really so hard to understand?

What he said.

 

The only thing I would add would be to separate the difficulty of the challenge from the difficulty of the cache. But that's optional. Just making it mandatory for the CO to demonstrate that they have completed their own challenge would solve a lot of issues.

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The only problem I see by making it a unique icon is that GS will get flooded by people wanting to put them out, wanting to make them into geo-art etc.... You will still deal with problems with appeals and other stuff.

 

Personally, other then the traditional ones (county, Delorme, terrain/difficulty grids, 365/366 date found, and some others), I would ditch the ALR all together.

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A certain other geocaching site just announced a rather clever solution to the Challenge Problem: Locationless Challenges.

 

1. Gets rid of the ALR issue - no more physical caches you cannot Find even when you find.

2. Still counts as a Smiley, which I think we can all agree is more desirable than a Souvenir or Challenge Star.

3. No need for repeat Challenge caches - one Locationless Challenge covers the whole world for a certain type of Challenge.

 

To further keep things under control, the Challenges are published under an admin account rather than being allowed for any account which is probably necessary to avoid the avalanche of appeals that Groundspeak already deals with. Given that this site has far more cachers than that site it could be a tricky situation; you might need special Challenge Reviewers to verify where those logging meet the qualifications, alsthough many popular Challenge Caches could have their qualifying check be automated.

 

Thoughts on this solution?

 

 

GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull. Besides isn't the point of a cache a location to find with your GPS?

 

Much like their lab caches I would refuse to log a locationless cache.

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A certain other geocaching site just announced a rather clever solution to the Challenge Problem: Locationless Challenges.

 

1. Gets rid of the ALR issue - no more physical caches you cannot Find even when you find.

2. Still counts as a Smiley, which I think we can all agree is more desirable than a Souvenir or Challenge Star.

3. No need for repeat Challenge caches - one Locationless Challenge covers the whole world for a certain type of Challenge.

 

To further keep things under control, the Challenges are published under an admin account rather than being allowed for any account which is probably necessary to avoid the avalanche of appeals that Groundspeak already deals with. Given that this site has far more cachers than that site it could be a tricky situation; you might need special Challenge Reviewers to verify where those logging meet the qualifications, alsthough many popular Challenge Caches could have their qualifying check be automated.

 

Thoughts on this solution?

 

 

GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull. Besides isn't the point of a cache a location to find with your GPS?

 

Much like their lab caches I would refuse to log a locationless cache.

 

Most puzzle caches are not located at the published coordinates and a GPS isn't used to go to the published location.

 

If the point of a cache is just a location to find with your GPS, then creating a challenge that must be accomplished before going to that location goes beyond the basic point of a geocache.

 

 

 

 

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A certain other geocaching site just announced a rather clever solution to the Challenge Problem: Locationless Challenges.

 

1. Gets rid of the ALR issue - no more physical caches you cannot Find even when you find.

2. Still counts as a Smiley, which I think we can all agree is more desirable than a Souvenir or Challenge Star.

3. No need for repeat Challenge caches - one Locationless Challenge covers the whole world for a certain type of Challenge.

 

To further keep things under control, the Challenges are published under an admin account rather than being allowed for any account which is probably necessary to avoid the avalanche of appeals that Groundspeak already deals with. Given that this site has far more cachers than that site it could be a tricky situation; you might need special Challenge Reviewers to verify where those logging meet the qualifications, alsthough many popular Challenge Caches could have their qualifying check be automated.

 

Thoughts on this solution?

 

 

GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull. Besides isn't the point of a cache a location to find with your GPS?

 

Much like their lab caches I would refuse to log a locationless cache.

 

Interesting idea. Challenge aficionados would still get their exclusive finds and those who don't want to play the sidegame would not be bothered by a physical cache they are not allowed to find.

 

That would definitely solve my problem.

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A certain other geocaching site just announced a rather clever solution to the Challenge Problem: Locationless Challenges.

 

1. Gets rid of the ALR issue - no more physical caches you cannot Find even when you find.

2. Still counts as a Smiley, which I think we can all agree is more desirable than a Souvenir or Challenge Star.

3. No need for repeat Challenge caches - one Locationless Challenge covers the whole world for a certain type of Challenge.

 

To further keep things under control, the Challenges are published under an admin account rather than being allowed for any account which is probably necessary to avoid the avalanche of appeals that Groundspeak already deals with. Given that this site has far more cachers than that site it could be a tricky situation; you might need special Challenge Reviewers to verify where those logging meet the qualifications, alsthough many popular Challenge Caches could have their qualifying check be automated.

 

Thoughts on this solution?

 

 

GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull. Besides isn't the point of a cache a location to find with your GPS?

 

Much like their lab caches I would refuse to log a locationless cache.

 

Interesting idea. Challenge aficionados would still get their exclusive finds and those who don't want to play the sidegame would not be bothered by a physical cache they are not allowed to find.

 

That would definitely solve my problem.

 

It already been proven that smilies that you can acquire from the comfort of your bathroom are not a good idea, location less challenge smilies are not a good idea.

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The first thing I thought about when I saw "locationless challenges" was something that combined the old locationless caches with challenges - fulfill the challenge, go to where you would have hidden a challenge cache, take a picture and record the coordinates with your log. Even better if you kiss a frog while doing that.

 

I would not have any problem if Groundspeak wanted to grandfather the existing challenges and give a badge or some kind of award for fulfilling certain accomplishments - as long as it was not automatic and I could choose to participate - or not. I once gave myself a Juche award (with Respected Leader's picture) for having done a certain number of Self-Reliant caches, and if anybody asks I will be glad to authorize the Aura Raines award to qualifying cachers who have done a certain number thematic caches. But those accomplishments should not be equated with smilies, so I think locationless caches in any form are better left alone.

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A certain other geocaching site just announced a rather clever solution to the Challenge Problem: Locationless Challenges.

 

1. Gets rid of the ALR issue - no more physical caches you cannot Find even when you find.

2. Still counts as a Smiley, which I think we can all agree is more desirable than a Souvenir or Challenge Star.

3. No need for repeat Challenge caches - one Locationless Challenge covers the whole world for a certain type of Challenge.

 

To further keep things under control, the Challenges are published under an admin account rather than being allowed for any account which is probably necessary to avoid the avalanche of appeals that Groundspeak already deals with. Given that this site has far more cachers than that site it could be a tricky situation; you might need special Challenge Reviewers to verify where those logging meet the qualifications, alsthough many popular Challenge Caches could have their qualifying check be automated.

 

Thoughts on this solution?

 

 

GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull. Besides isn't the point of a cache a location to find with your GPS?

 

Much like their lab caches I would refuse to log a locationless cache.

 

Interesting idea. Challenge aficionados would still get their exclusive finds and those who don't want to play the sidegame would not be bothered by a physical cache they are not allowed to find.

 

That would definitely solve my problem.

 

It already been proven that smilies that you can acquire from the comfort of your bathroom are not a good idea, location less challenge smilies are not a good idea.

 

Actually, I think they are the best idea. Maybe not count as a "smilie" though.

 

Besides isn't the point of a cache a location to find with your GPS?

 

What do you think folks are doing in order to qualify for the challenge? Funny...I thought they were out there finding caches with their GPS devices...

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A certain other geocaching site just announced a rather clever solution to the Challenge Problem: Locationless Challenges.

 

1. Gets rid of the ALR issue - no more physical caches you cannot Find even when you find.

2. Still counts as a Smiley, which I think we can all agree is more desirable than a Souvenir or Challenge Star.

3. No need for repeat Challenge caches - one Locationless Challenge covers the whole world for a certain type of Challenge.

 

To further keep things under control, the Challenges are published under an admin account rather than being allowed for any account which is probably necessary to avoid the avalanche of appeals that Groundspeak already deals with. Given that this site has far more cachers than that site it could be a tricky situation; you might need special Challenge Reviewers to verify where those logging meet the qualifications, alsthough many popular Challenge Caches could have their qualifying check be automated.

 

Thoughts on this solution?

 

 

GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull. Besides isn't the point of a cache a location to find with your GPS?

 

Much like their lab caches I would refuse to log a locationless cache.

 

Interesting idea. Challenge aficionados would still get their exclusive finds and those who don't want to play the sidegame would not be bothered by a physical cache they are not allowed to find.

 

That would definitely solve my problem.

 

It already been proven that smilies that you can acquire from the comfort of your bathroom are not a good idea, location less challenge smilies are not a good idea.

 

When was that proven? The idea behind the locationless challenge is that you *only* have to complete a challenge to get the smiley but you still have to complete the challenge. If someone goes got to Nevada, or PEI, or the Denver area and finds 500 caches in a day, they've met the criteria for a challenge to find 500 caches in a day. The difference between the current definition of challenge caches and a locationless challenge cache is that currently someone must then go find a cache, in order to get credit for completing the challenge.

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. A system that tried and failed. Can't repeat that enough dry.gif

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges.
Maybe. Maybe not.

 

I would expect lessons learned from the failed Worldwide Geocaching Challenges to affect the design of any potential replacement/update of the Challenge Cache system.

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. A system that tried and failed. Can't repeat that enough dry.gif

 

Locationless Challenges != Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

 

Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

- No review process

- Challenge does not involve a geocaching activity (finding/hiding a cache)

- Once challenge is created, the creator does not "own" it

- No difficulty/terrain rating

- No validation of completion

 

Locationless Challenges

- Challenge are either owned by GS or must go through a review proces

- The challenge is based on a geocaching activity (find N caches of this type)

- The challenge creator owns and "maintains" the challenge (must continue to be attainable)

- Can have difficulty/terrain ratings

- Challenge can only be logged at completed if the challenge criteria is verified

 

About the only thing they would have in common is they're both called challenges.

 

 

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If the point of a cache is just a location to find with your GPS, then creating a challenge that must be accomplished before going to that location goes beyond the basic point of a geocache.

 

If the point of a cache is just a location to find with your GPS, then having a container at the location is redundant as well.

 

See what happens when you start with a faulty premise?

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. A system that tried and failed. Can't repeat that enough dry.gif

 

Locationless Challenges != Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

 

Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

- No review process

- Challenge does not involve a geocaching activity (finding/hiding a cache)

- Once challenge is created, the creator does not "own" it

- No difficulty/terrain rating

- No validation of completion

 

Locationless Challenges

- Challenge are either owned by GS or must go through a review proces

- The challenge is based on a geocaching activity (find N caches of this type)

- The challenge creator owns and "maintains" the challenge (must continue to be attainable)

- Can have difficulty/terrain ratings

- Challenge can only be logged at completed if the challenge criteria is verified

 

About the only thing they would have in common is they're both called challenges.

 

I have done the jasmer, fizzy, have all my calendar filled, if GS went ahead with this idea I could rack up quite a few find doing little more than logging from my toilet, this is not geocaching, this is not a challenge.

 

I'd would not log a single one as my find found would not equal the amount of caches I found/attended, etc.

Edited by Roman!

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Locationless Challenges != Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

 

...

 

About the only thing they would have in common is they're both called challenges.

The have that in common, and they also have in common the fact that neither one looks anything like challenge caches. And that's the same reason no one will be interested in them.

 

On the positive side, as far as I can see, your locationless challenges could be implemented today as souvenirs.

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I'd would not log a single one as my find found would not equal the amount of caches I found/attended, etc.

 

Ironic.

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I have done the jasmer, fizzy, have all my calendar filled, if GS went ahead with this idea I could rack up quite a few find doing little more than logging from my toilet, this is not geocaching, this is not a challenge.

 

I'd would not log a single one as my find found would not equal the amount of caches I found/attended, etc.

 

You do realize that these ideas don't revolve around you, right? Just because you would automatically qualify for any future challenge doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Whether a challenge cache is actually a challenge to qualify for...that ship sailed long ago. Many high find cachers are more than happy to go find a challenge cache they qualified for before it was even published.

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GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull.

 

That would be a buried plastic bucket with a can of beans in it, would it not?

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GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull.

 

That would be a buried plastic bucket with a can of beans in it, would it not?

 

So GS should stick to being a plastic bucket full of beans? Your persistence to argue with me may be getting the better of you.

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. A system that tried and failed. Can't repeat that enough dry.gif

 

The failure of challenges probably had to to do more with the individual challenges than with with worldwide challenges. The latter had a lot of potential. It's a shame they pulled the plug before discovering it's full potential.

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. A system that tried and failed. Can't repeat that enough dry.gif

 

The failure of challenges probably had to to do more with the individual challenges than with with worldwide challenges. The latter had a lot of potential. It's a shame they pulled the plug before discovering it's full potential.

 

Im glad they pulled the plug, kissing a frog got you a smilie :laughing:

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GS is a listing service, they should stick to what made them successfull.

 

That would be a buried plastic bucket with a can of beans in it, would it not?

 

So GS should stick to being a plastic bucket full of beans? Your persistence to argue with me may be getting the better of you.

 

Your persistence to fail to see humor may be getting the better of you.

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. A system that tried and failed. Can't repeat that enough dry.gif

 

Locationless Challenges != Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

 

Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

- No review process

- Challenge does not involve a geocaching activity (finding/hiding a cache)

- Once challenge is created, the creator does not "own" it

- No difficulty/terrain rating

- No validation of completion

 

Locationless Challenges

- Challenge are either owned by GS or must go through a review proces

- The challenge is based on a geocaching activity (find N caches of this type)

- The challenge creator owns and "maintains" the challenge (must continue to be attainable)

- Can have difficulty/terrain ratings

- Challenge can only be logged at completed if the challenge criteria is verified

 

About the only thing they would have in common is they're both called challenges.

 

I have done the jasmer, fizzy, have all my calendar filled, if GS went ahead with this idea I could rack up quite a few find doing little more than logging from my toilet, this is not geocaching, this is not a challenge.

 

 

Are you saying completing the jasmer, fizzy, and filling up your calendar were not challenges? The only difference here is what you have to do to acknowledge that you completed the criteria. Finding another cache or just logging a locationless "cache" doesn't change the fact that you have completed the challenge.

 

 

I'd would not log a single one as my find found would not equal the amount of caches I found/attended, etc.

 

If GS adopted the idea of a locationless cache for challenges it would just mean that the definition of a cache has changed. It would mean that a "cache" could be found/attended/photo taken/completed in order for it to count as a find.

 

 

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Locationless Challenges != Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

 

...

 

About the only thing they would have in common is they're both called challenges.

The have that in common, and they also have in common the fact that neither one looks anything like challenge caches. And that's the same reason no one will be interested in them.

 

I think the fact that there is a one year moratorium on challenge caches is a good indication that a lot of people aren't interested in challenge caches as they exist today.

 

On the positive side, as far as I can see, your locationless challenges could be implemented today as souvenirs.

 

There have been several suggestions to implement souvenirs, badges, or stars or challenges and those arguing against that typically are claiming that they're not interested in souvenirs. The locationless cache challenge idea allows those that want to work on challenges to still get a smiley when it's completed.

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Locationless Challenges = Worldwide Geocaching Challenges. A system that tried and failed. Can't repeat that enough dry.gif

 

Locationless Challenges != Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

 

Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

- No review process

- Challenge does not involve a geocaching activity (finding/hiding a cache)

- Once challenge is created, the creator does not "own" it

- No difficulty/terrain rating

- No validation of completion

 

Locationless Challenges

- Challenge are either owned by GS or must go through a review proces

- The challenge is based on a geocaching activity (find N caches of this type)

- The challenge creator owns and "maintains" the challenge (must continue to be attainable)

- Can have difficulty/terrain ratings

- Challenge can only be logged at completed if the challenge criteria is verified

 

About the only thing they would have in common is they're both called challenges.

 

I have done the jasmer, fizzy, have all my calendar filled, if GS went ahead with this idea I could rack up quite a few find doing little more than logging from my toilet, this is not geocaching, this is not a challenge.

 

 

Are you saying completing the jasmer, fizzy, and filling up your calendar were not challenges? The only difference here is what you have to do to acknowledge that you completed the criteria. Finding another cache or just logging a locationless "cache" doesn't change the fact that you have completed the challenge.

 

 

I'd would not log a single one as my find found would not equal the amount of caches I found/attended, etc.

 

If GS adopted the idea of a locationless cache for challenges it would just mean that the definition of a cache has changed. It would mean that a "cache" could be found/attended/photo taken/completed in order for it to count as a find.

 

They were challenges but I don't deserve an extra smiley for completing them and if GS redefines a cache as something that is merely completed I will refuse to ever log it.

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Does anyone else find it a bit ironic that Groundspeak just announced something that seems an awful lot like a series of Challenge Caches?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/blog/2015/05/join-the-geocaching-road-trip-15-earn-6-souvenirs/

 

Seems less like irony and more like intentional. Or, even more likely, another variation on the summer special souvenirs that Groundspeak did the last 2 years.

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Does anyone else find it a bit ironic that Groundspeak just announced something that seems an awful lot like a series of Challenge Caches?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/blog/2015/05/join-the-geocaching-road-trip-15-earn-6-souvenirs/

Seems less like irony and more like intentional. Or, even more likely, another variation on the summer special souvenirs that Groundspeak did the last 2 years.

I agree.

It seemed (to me) to be a variation of the marketing ploys of the past. :)

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I think the fact that there is a one year moratorium on challenge caches is a good indication that a lot of people aren't interested in challenge caches as they exist today.

 

That makes exactly zero sense. I can't even imagine a semi-logical argument that would get you from A (moratorium) to B (people don't like them).

 

Methinks perhaps you are letting your dislike of other people having fun cloud your judgment here.

Edited by fizzymagic

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I think the fact that there is a one year moratorium on challenge caches is a good indication that a lot of people aren't interested in challenge caches as they exist today.

 

That makes exactly zero sense. I can't even imagine a semi-logical argument that would get you from A (moratorium) to B (people don't like them).

 

Methinks perhaps you are letting your dislike of other people having fun cloud your judgment here.

 

I think the fact that there is a one year moratorium on challenge caches is a good indication that a lot of forum curmudgeons aren't interested in challenge caches as they exist today.

 

Fixed it, guess you haven't read the feedback thread, impression I get is geocachers seem to like them.

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I think the fact that there is a one year moratorium on challenge caches is a good indication that a lot of people aren't interested in challenge caches as they exist today.

My jaw dropped, so I'm glad Fizzy provided a coherent reply since mine probably would amounted to sputtering.

 

There have been several suggestions to implement souvenirs, badges, or stars or challenges and those arguing against that typically are claiming that they're not interested in souvenirs. The locationless cache challenge idea allows those that want to work on challenges to still get a smiley when it's completed.

So we agree that the only difference is the smiley. For me, at least, what isn't attractive about souvenirs, badges, or stars is that they aren't geocaches, not that I don't get a smiley for them.

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Yesterday, on a cache I'm watching, a cacher dropped a throwdown on a missing cache because he needed to qualify for a challenge (said so in his log). The cache has been missing for 8 months, 12 DNFs, 2NMs. The cache owner ballistic that people logged NMs, called the last one a cache cop on a note he posted after the NM. He never went out to check on the cache. One month and one more DNF later along comes need-this-find-for-a-challenge cacher with a pill bottle. The owner left a note thanking the power cacher for confirming that the cache was gone (what the last 12 DNFs didn't confirm it already?) and for replacing it. Yeah, challenge caches are good for the game. dry.gif

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Yesterday, on a cache I'm watching, a cacher dropped a throwdown on a missing cache because he needed to qualify for a challenge (said so in his log). The cache has been missing for 8 months, 12 DNFs, 2NMs. The cache owner ballistic that people logged NMs, called the last one a cache cop on a note he posted after the NM. He never went out to check on the cache. One month and one more DNF later along comes need-this-find-for-a-challenge cacher with a pill bottle. The owner left a note thanking the power cacher for confirming that the cache was gone (what the last 12 DNFs didn't confirm it already?) and for replacing it. Yeah, challenge caches are good for the game. dry.gif

I see that as the cache owner being bad for the game. Finders have been dropping throwdowns for ages, regardless of cache type and regardless of the need to complete a challenge.

 

If that were my cache I'd have deleted his log - but the situation wouldn't have happened since I'd have sorted the cache out long before.

 

CO's fault, not challenge caches fault.

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Yesterday, on a cache I'm watching, a cacher dropped a throwdown on a missing cache because he needed to qualify for a challenge (said so in his log). The cache has been missing for 8 months, 12 DNFs, 2NMs. The cache owner ballistic that people logged NMs, called the last one a cache cop on a note he posted after the NM. He never went out to check on the cache. One month and one more DNF later along comes need-this-find-for-a-challenge cacher with a pill bottle. The owner left a note thanking the power cacher for confirming that the cache was gone (what the last 12 DNFs didn't confirm it already?) and for replacing it. Yeah, challenge caches are good for the game. dry.gif

I see that as the cache owner being bad for the game. Finders have been dropping throwdowns for ages, regardless of cache type and regardless of the need to complete a challenge.

 

If that were my cache I'd have deleted his log - but the situation wouldn't have happened since I'd have sorted the cache out long before.

 

CO's fault, not challenge caches fault.

 

Challenge caches add an extra layer of incentive to the already faulty caching practice of throwdowns.

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Yesterday, on a cache I'm watching, a cacher dropped a throwdown on a missing cache because he needed to qualify for a challenge (said so in his log). The cache has been missing for 8 months, 12 DNFs, 2NMs. The cache owner ballistic that people logged NMs, called the last one a cache cop on a note he posted after the NM. He never went out to check on the cache. One month and one more DNF later along comes need-this-find-for-a-challenge cacher with a pill bottle. The owner left a note thanking the power cacher for confirming that the cache was gone (what the last 12 DNFs didn't confirm it already?) and for replacing it. Yeah, challenge caches are good for the game. dry.gif

I see that as the cache owner being bad for the game. Finders have been dropping throwdowns for ages, regardless of cache type and regardless of the need to complete a challenge.

 

If that were my cache I'd have deleted his log - but the situation wouldn't have happened since I'd have sorted the cache out long before.

 

CO's fault, not challenge caches fault.

 

Challenge caches add an extra layer of incentive to the already faulty caching practice of throwdowns.

Whether it is one layer, two layers, or sixteen layers...the end result is the same. Your example points out a poor CO and a throwdown artist, nothing more nothing less...their reasoning is irrelevant in my opinion.

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It seems like the Panty Wad Gang has won a small victory here.

 

Touche.

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I think most of the drama surrounding challenge caches could be fixed in 2 easy steps.

1: REQUIRE the co to demonstrate that they have fulfilled the requirements of the challenge Before the cache is published. No exceptions. That should cut down 90% of frivolous challenge spew and give the reviewers a break (at least around here it would).

2: Give challenge caches their own icon, as a subset of Mystery caches. That way people can filter them out to either ignore or seek out, however they wish. (Yes, we all want that).

We don't need to turn challenge caches into virtual wannbes, or take away the physcal cache at the end, or hand out badges, or any of the other things I've seen tossed around as fixes.

Challenge caches have ALRs. If you stop by to sign the log before you qualify, you write a NOTE until you qualify, and then you log it as a find when you have met the requirements. Is that really so hard to understand?

 

I'm a bit surprised to read that. In Belgium, condition 1: is MANDATORY. I wasn't allowed to publish my own challenge cache (about Airport caches) until I could prove that I was fulfilling the ALR, and honestly .. I think that's fair enough

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In response to your questions about challenge caches:

 

1. What do you like most about challenge caches? -- They are goals to work toward, inspiring weekend trips or other adventures. If you are constantly working to find caches to complete challenges you have incentives to get out and enjoy this sport.

 

2. What do you not like about challenge caches? -- A challenge cache should have a final that fits the challenge. There are many challenges that are tough to meet with pill bottle GR finals. Kind of takes the wind out of your sails for completing the challenge. There should be pride in meeting a challenge.

 

3. What would you like to see changed about challenge caches? -- Personally I would like to see a separate icon to differentiate between true challenges and puzzle caches. Both have their place.

 

4. If you could describe your favorite challenge cache type, what would it be? -- My favorites include the 81 D/T challenge, cache in every month challenge, 366-day challenge, state county challenge, Delorme challenge, word challenges (cacher name or cache name), lat/long challenges. These have very specific, measurable objectives. Even though it takes quite a while to complete many of these, you have something to work toward.

 

5. What types of challenge caches do you avoid? -- Caches that are more difficult to determine whether you qualify (especially if you're a Mac user and can't utilize GSAK).

 

With that said, I think 1 year is a bit too long to undertake a review (6 months seems more appropriate). I do not want challenges eliminated, and I don't really know what the problems have been that led to this review. Personally, if you don't like a challenge, simply put it on your ignore list. Let the rest of us continue to have fun.

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Kind of a shame that most still don't know it was submissions/appeals that caused this stir, not whiners who can't complete 'em.

The popular theme's still "If you don't like them, ignore them. Let the rest of us have fun" from many at User Insights.

I know I didn't notice it until a Reviewer said something too.

 

Maybe instead of hidden away in a link, it could have been simply said.

You'd only be hurting the feelings of the ones deserving it. :)

 

- Right now, those that don't are the ones spoken of...

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I think the fact that there is a one year moratorium on challenge caches is a good indication that a lot of people aren't interested in challenge caches as they exist today.

 

That makes exactly zero sense. I can't even imagine a semi-logical argument that would get you from A (moratorium) to B (people don't like them).

 

Methinks perhaps you are letting your dislike of other people having fun cloud your judgment here.

 

I think the fact that there is a one year moratorium on challenge caches is a good indication that a lot of forum curmudgeons aren't interested in challenge caches as they exist today.

 

Fixed it, guess you haven't read the feedback thread, impression I get is geocachers seem to like them.

 

I read the feedback thread as well as the several other threads related to geocaching challenges. The impression that I got is that some people that like them are coming out of the woodwork to express their displeasure that the moratorium was put in place. I am also seeing a lot of people supporting GS for enacting the moratorium because they feel that geocaching challenges have numerous issues that should be resolved. Some reviewers certainly have some issues with how geocaching challenges are impacting their workload there have been more than a few posts from geocachers that do *not* seem to like how they're implemented today, but I guess we can just dismiss their opinions because, after all, they're just forum curmudgeons.

 

 

I have no problems with other people having their fun up to the point that how other people are having fun begins to negatively influence the game as a whole.

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It seems like the Panty Wad Gang has won a small victory here.

 

Touche.

 

I hate that term. It is so inflammatory!

 

But in any case... which "Panty Wad Gang" are you referring to... those that are upset because of the moratorium, or those that are upset about challenge caches?

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Locationless Challenges != Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

 

Worldwide Geocaching Challenges

- No review process

- Challenge does not involve a geocaching activity (finding/hiding a cache)

- Once challenge is created, the creator does not "own" it

- No difficulty/terrain rating

- No validation of completion

 

Locationless Challenges

- Challenge are either owned by GS or must go through a review proces

- The challenge is based on a geocaching activity (find N caches of this type)

- The challenge creator owns and "maintains" the challenge (must continue to be attainable)

- Can have difficulty/terrain ratings

- Challenge can only be logged at completed if the challenge criteria is verified

 

About the only thing they would have in common is they're both called challenges.

 

The only difference that affects all that is whether Groundspeak creates them, or lets the community create them. The former would no longer possibly be anything related to current Challenge Caches, they would be worldwide challenge caches. The latter introduces numerous issues which led to my point; it wouldn't work, and so the only workable implementation would be effectively the same as worldwide geocaching challenges, the former.

 

Being community-created, without allowing duplicate challenges (as is unavoidable with current Challenge Caches), I do not believe there would be enough interest to create geocaching-related locationless challenges, worldwide. Even limiting regional duplication would be pushing it. The popularity and desire to create them would be thin. So if they limited the number of challenges an owner could create to give more room for others to create, they'd be stifling the fun an individual could have. If they didn't limit creation, one person could create all the fun ones they like and stop others from having a chance. It's a limiting regulation, either on quantity of owners or quantity of listings, and much more an effect than say caches being 161m apart and challenges being reasonably attainable.

 

Groundspeak could accepts suggestions, and still create them in-house; but that would however bring it back to Worldwide Geocaching Challenges.

 

If Groundspeak decided to move forward with locationless challenges anyway, the only reduction in reviewer work would be precisely because of the very much reduced amount of activity from people wanting to create them. That's not a win for the community (ymmv).

 

As a challenge seeker, it would also be much less interesting because if I complete one goal, say find 10,000 caches, then I can just claim all the lesser challenges from my couch and be done. Yay. No more "Oh there's another fizzy challenge I qualify for half way through our road trip - gotta stop and grab it!" Yes, not everyone thinks like that, and yes that doesn't reduce any value of other non-challenge physical caches that may be desireable to find on road trips. But that aspect of challenge caches is completely removed from the game. And that's a big one. (ymmv)

 

Honestly, you may favour the idea of locationless challenges, and that's fine, but I honestly, completely don't see it working out - at least nowhere near as popular as the concept is currently, with the physical cache. If that's what GS wants, so be it. But it'll be a big hit to the challenge caching community.

 

And as elsewhere mentioned, locationless challenges can be created in the current souvenir system, were they to allow users to 'publish' their own (whether regional or worldwide) and be reviewed. Yeah. I do not see that happening.

 

The failure of challenges probably had to to do more with the individual challenges than with with worldwide challenges. The latter had a lot of potential. It's a shame they pulled the plug before discovering it's full potential.

I agree. I really enjoyed them, and the ones I created were much more fun and interesting than doing geocaching unrelated activities. I wanted to make educational, activity- and geocaching-related challenges. I had a series that had you visiting 6 heritage lighthouse around the Bruce peninsula, for one. I thought they had great potential! But they were far too open and flexible, and I was very saddened and surprised that they completely scrapped the idea from existence rather than finding a way to improve on them. The worldwide challenges were nowhere near as interesting as (many of) the location-locked local challenges, even though there weren't physical containers involved.

Edited by thebruce0

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Does anyone else find it a bit ironic that Groundspeak just announced something that seems an awful lot like a series of Challenge Caches?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/blog/2015/05/join-the-geocaching-road-trip-15-earn-6-souvenirs/

 

The difference it their's appears to be reasonable. Many of the challenges are so outlandish that it makes the whole concept a joke.

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