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Inappropriate/dangerous hiding spots


blackdog7
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I'm wondering what the thoughts are on the forum about potentially dangerous hiding spots. I've always thought lampskirt caches shouldn't be allowed because they could lead to electrocution. I'm seriously considering ignoring lamskirt caches altogether because of this, not to mention how incredibly boring they are but it never fails that I complete a difficult or lengthy challenge or Wherigo only to find the final hidden in a lampskirt.

 

I've even encountered caches hidden inside electrical boxes. One I found in Pensacola, FL was a piece of conduit on a telephone pole with an electrical box attached to the top. It looked completely functional and required a screwdriver to open. Considering the fact that we're supposed to encourage children to geocache, I don't like the idea of teaching kids to go poking around electrical outlets and boxes.

 

I also hate finding caches that are drilled into or nailed/screwed to living trees. This seems to defeat the whole 'green' idea of geocaching in my opinion.

 

The guidelines are fairly lenient in my opinion. So what are the thoughts of the other forum members? Where do you draw the line?

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I have NEVER seen wires in any lamp post caches I have found. The only danger there is from the possibility of cutting from the sharp edges or from that squeak/screech destroying an eardrum.

Should we add all climbing caches to your list? What about those ones under water?

 

Why not leave it up to the finder to decide if the smiley is worth any perceived danger? Seems like a good plan and one that may already be in place.

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I have NEVER seen wires in any lamp post caches I have found. The only danger there is from the possibility of cutting from the sharp edges or from that squeak/screech destroying an eardrum.

Should we add all climbing caches to your list? What about those ones under water?

 

Why not leave it up to the finder to decide if the smiley is worth any perceived danger? Seems like a good plan and one that may already be in place.

 

I've seen wires in several.

 

Surely you see my point about encouraging children to manipulate something that could potentially cause electrocution, hence to statement about the electrical boxes.

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I once found a cache right next to wires inside a light pole. Didn't like it.

 

I once had to unscrew what I thought was an electrical box (later realized it was a phone box) and was very uncomfortable with that.

 

I once started to unscrew an electrical thing for a puzzle final and decided I was just too uncomfortable and left with a DNF. I later found out the final wasn't in that electrical thing anyway.

 

I've found an awful lot of caches nailed or screwed to trees. I know of at least one that was reported and archived.

 

As time goes on, I've become better at walking away when I'm uncomfortable with a cache. I don't worry too much about caches that I don't like. I do make a point of hiding caches that I would enjoy finding and call it good. The only caches that really get under my skin (and not in a bad way) are the T4.5ish. Some of them are just on the edge of what I'm physically capable of doing. You know, rock climbing that's not really rock climbing (a real rock climber would call it wimpy, but to me it's Mt. Everest). Those ones are soooo tempting. I circle and circle and ponder the possibility of dying vs. getting to that cache. Those are hard to walk away from.

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Ones inside real, functioning electrical boxes - IMHO those should be NA'd to get a reviewer to re-review it. I highly doubt the CO has gotten permission to hide a cache inside anything like that.

 

If it's a fake electrical box - that's another matter, and a more debatable one.

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Ones inside real, functioning electrical boxes - IMHO those should be NA'd to get a reviewer to re-review it. I highly doubt the CO has gotten permission to hide a cache inside anything like that.

 

If it's a fake electrical box - that's another matter, and a more debatable one.

 

It's the fake electrical boxes I'm talking about, I've never found one in a working box. I would have no problem, perhaps, if there were some way to distinguish it...maybe a geocache sticker or symbol, or even a description on the cache page.

 

The inspiration for this post was a cache I found recently that was near some electrical boxes and while searching for it I noticed what appeared to be damage to some of the boxes as if someone were searching for something. It got me thinking about how often people have attempted to open working electrical boxes because they thought the cache might be there.

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It's the fake electrical boxes I'm talking about, I've never found one in a working box. I would have no problem, perhaps, if there were some way to distinguish it...maybe a geocache sticker or symbol, or even a description on the cache page.

 

 

This is where the debate gets interesting though, at some point you're destroying the idea of the cache if you add too many clues.

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It's the fake electrical boxes I'm talking about, I've never found one in a working box. I would have no problem, perhaps, if there were some way to distinguish it...maybe a geocache sticker or symbol, or even a description on the cache page.

 

 

This is where the debate gets interesting though, at some point you're destroying the idea of the cache if you add too many clues.

 

I think the electrical box that you found that you had to actually unscrew is a very rare exception. It sure is, in my experience. I've never found an electrical box type of cache that I wasn't sure about when I opened it. Most are simply held on with magnets and come apart quite easily. A real one would never come apart without tools.

 

There can be electrical problems with lamp posts, of course, but those are rare, and they can also occur with appliances in your own home just as easily. I have never seen or heard a report of a single electrical injury happening from geocaching. As for setting an example for children... it they bother you, don't do them when you have the kids along. Or treat it as a learning experience. My father used to rewire light switches and outlets around the house when I was young... when I was too young, he told me that I wasn't do touch them. When I got a bit older, he told me what he was doing, and when I got old enough, he showed me how to do it.

 

Screwing or nailing caches to trees are already against the guidelines.

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Screwing or nailing caches to trees are already against the guidelines.

 

The guidelines state: 'Geocaches are placed so that plant and animal life are safe from both intentional and unintentional harm. In some regions geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species.'

 

Still, I've found several caches, recently published caches too, that are attached to trees. Most recently, I found a Challenge cache where the posted coordinates took you to a tree that had a container screwed into it containing a tool. The tool was a magnet on a dowel rod. The difficulty was a 5 star because once you found the tool the only other clue you had was that the final was within 10 paces of the posted coords. The difficulty came from the fact that the final was a nano stuck inside a hole drilled into a tree. The hole was just large enough in diameter to allow the dowel rod to enter.

 

The CO actually drilled a hole into the tree.

 

I doubt he specifically stated this to the reviewer, though.

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Ones inside real, functioning electrical boxes - IMHO those should be NA'd to get a reviewer to re-review it. I highly doubt the CO has gotten permission to hide a cache inside anything like that.
I think the existing requirement for adequate permission is sufficient. If we start banning "dangerous" caches, then a lot of high-terrain caches would be banned, since they are often truly dangerous to anyone without the required skills/equipment.

 

For the record, the electrical-box caches I've found have been pretty obviously fake before I opened them. Often, they're attached magnetically, and I'm holding the container in my hand before I open it. Often, they're in locations where it doesn't make any sense for there to be an electrical box, like at the base of a wooden signpost in a remote park where there is no electrical service.

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I have NEVER seen wires in any lamp post caches I have found. The only danger there is from the possibility of cutting from the sharp edges or from that squeak/screech destroying an eardrum.

Should we add all climbing caches to your list? What about those ones under water?

 

Why not leave it up to the finder to decide if the smiley is worth any perceived danger? Seems like a good plan and one that may already be in place.

 

I've seen wires in several.

 

Surely you see my point about encouraging children to manipulate something that could potentially cause electrocution, hence to statement about the electrical boxes.

If there are exposed wires in a box that the public can open, then the first people to alert are the land managers. Tell them you saw kids poking around. They hopefully will be concerned enough about lawsuits that they'll fix it. I have not seen wires in a lamppost skirt, although I have seen wires exposed on or near poles that looked like it would be best to cover them.

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I haven't been around long enough but I KNOW drilling holes into trees in a no-no. As far as the hides in lamp posts go I have never seen any exposed wires inside the skirt but sometimes the access panels have been removed and you can see the wires. As a general rule I only seek out lamp hides if I am on a streak or if I am far away from home and wanna grab a quick cache. The last lamp hide i found the skirt was covered in bird droppings, which you could say is just as dangerous as an exposed wire if you think about all the disease birds carry.

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Screwing or nailing caches to trees are already against the guidelines.

 

The guidelines state: 'Geocaches are placed so that plant and animal life are safe from both intentional and unintentional harm. In some regions geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species.'

 

Still, I've found several caches, recently published caches too, that are attached to trees. Most recently, I found a Challenge cache where the posted coordinates took you to a tree that had a container screwed into it containing a tool. The tool was a magnet on a dowel rod. The difficulty was a 5 star because once you found the tool the only other clue you had was that the final was within 10 paces of the posted coords. The difficulty came from the fact that the final was a nano stuck inside a hole drilled into a tree. The hole was just large enough in diameter to allow the dowel rod to enter.

 

The CO actually drilled a hole into the tree.

 

I doubt he specifically stated this to the reviewer, though.

 

Did you log a Needs Archived on that cache? Did you send a email to the Reviewer? If not, why didn't you? Change can't happen unless those who have a concern voice that concern to the appropriate place. Cache in violation of the guidelines: report it to a Reviewer. Wires exposed under a lamp post skirt: report it to the property manager.

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Did you log a Needs Archived on that cache? Did you send a email to the Reviewer? If not, why didn't you? Change can't happen unless those who have a concern voice that concern to the appropriate place. Cache in violation of the guidelines: report it to a Reviewer. Wires exposed under a lamp post skirt: report it to the property manager.

 

I'm on the forum trying to get an idea of how to proceed with this guy. The example I gave is the extreme case with him but he also has many caches hidden by attaching small screw-in hooks to trees, poles, posts etc.

 

The guidelines state:

 

"Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Wildlife and the natural environment are not harmed in the pursuit of geocaching.

Geocaches are placed so that plant and animal life are safe from both intentional and unintentional harm. In some regions geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species."

 

While I interpret this to mean no drilling, I could see an argument that drilling will not kill the tree. I'm from Alabama, people in this area generally have a different opinion on how trees should be treated.

 

Plus, the 'must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place' guideline is overlooked by many people when attaching containers, clues, etc to existing fenceposts or telephone poles. In this case, I'm thinking of those multi-caches where a clue or coordinates are found on a tag which has been attached to said pole.

 

I don't see the problem when attaching to posts or poles, but with trees I do.

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Did you log a Needs Archived on that cache? Did you send a email to the Reviewer? If not, why didn't you? Change can't happen unless those who have a concern voice that concern to the appropriate place. Cache in violation of the guidelines: report it to a Reviewer. Wires exposed under a lamp post skirt: report it to the property manager.

 

I'm on the forum trying to get an idea of how to proceed with this guy. The example I gave is the extreme case with him but he also has many caches hidden by attaching small screw-in hooks to trees, poles, posts etc.

 

The guidelines state:

 

"Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Wildlife and the natural environment are not harmed in the pursuit of geocaching.

Geocaches are placed so that plant and animal life are safe from both intentional and unintentional harm. In some regions geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species."

 

While I interpret this to mean no drilling, I could see an argument that drilling will not kill the tree. I'm from Alabama, people in this area generally have a different opinion on how trees should be treated.

 

Plus, the 'must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place' guideline is overlooked by many people when attaching containers, clues, etc to existing fenceposts or telephone poles. In this case, I'm thinking of those multi-caches where a clue or coordinates are found on a tag which has been attached to said pole.

 

I don't see the problem when attaching to posts or poles, but with trees I do.

 

You have two avenues that you could take. The first is to post a NA note on the cache page, preferably with photos. The reviewer will see a NA note. The alternate route would be to privately send the same information to the reviewer. I'm pretty darned certain the cache won't live through the day, and that hider will have a very difficult time getting future caches published.

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I have NEVER seen wires in any lamp post caches I have found. The only danger there is from the possibility of cutting from the sharp edges or from that squeak/screech destroying an eardrum.

Should we add all climbing caches to your list? What about those ones under water?

 

Why not leave it up to the finder to decide if the smiley is worth any perceived danger? Seems like a good plan and one that may already be in place.

 

I've seen wires in several.

 

Surely you see my point about encouraging children to manipulate something that could potentially cause electrocution, hence to statement about the electrical boxes.

 

The circumstances would have to be just right for someone to get electrocuted while looking under a lampost skirt. I'd be more concerned crossing the street with my children than looking under these.

 

My concern, and pet peave, is that the majority of these types of hides are on private property with no permission given. Even if they were asked, i sincerely doubt there'd be very many store owners/managers who'd give their permission for this.

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The circumstances would have to be just right for someone to get electrocuted while looking under a lampost skirt. I'd be more concerned crossing the street with my children than looking under these.

 

My concern, and pet peave, is that the majority of these types of hides are on private property with no permission given. Even if they were asked, i sincerely doubt there'd be very many store owners/managers who'd give their permission for this.

 

I should clarify by saying I'm not so concerned with people getting hurt by lifting a lamp skirt alone, I'm concerned with where hides utilizing electrical equipment as containers might eventually lead. For example, I'm sure most have seen the hides that use the thin rectangular outlet covers as a container, often in a place where it might exist anyway. Well, I've encountered caches where I see these outlet covers that are not containers but seem to have been messed with, I'm assuming that at least some of the time a cacher has tried to get into these things thinking it was a cache.

 

I used kids as an example but I could see where any eager cacher might open the wrong thing and end up hurting themselves. True enough that we assume the risk, and the topic of climbing or scuba caches was brought up, but I'm seeing these electrical equipment caches as slightly different. Plus I just want to understand the opinions of other cachers.

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My team has found a few lampost caches where you lift the bottom part of the light up to reveal a magnetized cache. We are new cachers, but most of these are on private property and don't feel that these should be done, even though they are amazing hiding spots. You take some risks looking for these and they often are not worth it for the type of cache.

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If you put a screw into a post, it damages the post. Same thing as a nail in the tree, etc. When a cache is placed in obvious guideline violation, it should be reported. That way, others don't repeat them....even in abalama.:laughing:

 

I suppose I'm trying to figure out just how obvious these violations are, and if potentially the guidelines should be further clarified.

 

Personally, I have no problem reporting the hole drilled into the tree but I don't see how using posts is a problem, especially if permission was obtained.

 

To be honest, I will have truly opened the flood gates if I decide to start reporting all of the caches in the area I'm talking about. There is a group of extremely active cachers/hiders who are using a 'pull-and'catch' container type that uses PVC with a cap on one end and open on the other, all painted black. Often (very often) these containers are screwed into telephone poles. The log container is a matchstick or bison or similar which is held up inside the open end of the PVC by a zip-tie or bolt.

 

I'm talking about hundreds of these around the area...and apparently no complaints.

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Typically when I get to GZ and see electrical boxes, I rarely look for the cache. It's probably just inexperience and not knowing exactly what to look for, but I'm not comfortable poking, prodding, and pulling at anything electrical - too concerned about messing with someone's power and doing damage that I absolutely can NOT afford to fix! :) Even though I'm not comfortable with them, though, I don't necessarily think they should be banned. One of the only ones I ever found was a small metal plate magnetically attached to the electrical box - wasn't hurting a thing, and you didn't have to open the box to find it, as it was attached outside.

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Did you log a Needs Archived on that cache? Did you send a email to the Reviewer? If not, why didn't you? Change can't happen unless those who have a concern voice that concern to the appropriate place. Cache in violation of the guidelines: report it to a Reviewer. Wires exposed under a lamp post skirt: report it to the property manager.

 

I'm on the forum trying to get an idea of how to proceed with this guy. The example I gave is the extreme case with him but he also has many caches hidden by attaching small screw-in hooks to trees, poles, posts etc.

 

The guidelines state:

 

"Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Wildlife and the natural environment are not harmed in the pursuit of geocaching.

Geocaches are placed so that plant and animal life are safe from both intentional and unintentional harm. In some regions geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species."

 

While I interpret this to mean no drilling, I could see an argument that drilling will not kill the tree. I'm from Alabama, people in this area generally have a different opinion on how trees should be treated.

 

Plus, the 'must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place' guideline is overlooked by many people when attaching containers, clues, etc to existing fenceposts or telephone poles. In this case, I'm thinking of those multi-caches where a clue or coordinates are found on a tag which has been attached to said pole.

 

I don't see the problem when attaching to posts or poles, but with trees I do.

 

Take a picture, and talk to the reviewer about it.

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The circumstances would have to be just right for someone to get electrocuted while looking under a lampost skirt. I'd be more concerned crossing the street with my children than looking under these.

 

My concern, and pet peave, is that the majority of these types of hides are on private property with no permission given. Even if they were asked, i sincerely doubt there'd be very many store owners/managers who'd give their permission for this.

 

I should clarify by saying I'm not so concerned with people getting hurt by lifting a lamp skirt alone, I'm concerned with where hides utilizing electrical equipment as containers might eventually lead. For example, I'm sure most have seen the hides that use the thin rectangular outlet covers as a container, often in a place where it might exist anyway. Well, I've encountered caches where I see these outlet covers that are not containers but seem to have been messed with, I'm assuming that at least some of the time a cacher has tried to get into these things thinking it was a cache.

 

I used kids as an example but I could see where any eager cacher might open the wrong thing and end up hurting themselves. True enough that we assume the risk, and the topic of climbing or scuba caches was brought up, but I'm seeing these electrical equipment caches as slightly different. Plus I just want to understand the opinions of other cachers.

 

I understand where you're coming from. That kids, and adults alike, may observe someone find a cache hidden in a fake electrical box then go willy nilly looking for other caches they think are hidden similarly. That they may actually stick their fingers in or try disassembling a live box. This is definitely something we all need to think about.

 

Imo, just like the crossing the street statement above,, being cautious is something that needs to be taught and learned. We teach our children to be careful crossing the street and we need to teach the same when encountering situations like this. I've already explained to my 7 year old daughter, that she needs to be careful around hides like these. Besides electricity, there can be wasps, spiders, or sharp edges that she needs to be watchful for. She's a kid so i still keep an eye on her but for the most part, it's easy to see that she has been listening.

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Plus, the 'must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place' guideline is overlooked by many people when attaching containers, clues, etc to existing fenceposts or telephone poles. In this case, I'm thinking of those multi-caches where a clue or coordinates are found on a tag which has been attached to said pole.

I think what is overlooked under these circumstances is that pesky little box EVERYONE has to check when they submit a geocache for review that affirms they have read and understand the guidelines. Either they didn't read the guidelines, they didn't understand the guidelines, are they a flat out lied about the cache placement (usually by omission).

 

There is a group of extremely active cachers/hiders who are using a 'pull-and'catch' container type that uses PVC with a cap on one end and open on the other, all painted black. Often (very often) these containers are screwed into telephone poles. The log container is a matchstick or bison or similar which is held up inside the open end of the PVC by a zip-tie or bolt.

 

I'm talking about hundreds of these around the area...and apparently no complaints.

Presumably, the Cache Owners obtained permission from the utility company. If not, these should be a no-go because the pole belongs to the utility company.

 

Cache Owners are supposed to provide details about their hides and permission in the "Reviewer Note" box. Most cachers don't. So, the Reviewer is left to trust that the Cache Owner actually did read and understand the Guidelines and has complied with them. Cache Owners need to keep in mind that Reviewers are avid cachers themselves and may find non-guideline compliant caches. While most Reviewers leave their Reviewer Hat at home when they play the game, what they find in the field can color their impression of a Cache Owner and prompt futher questions about future cache submissions.

Edited by Ladybug Kids
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Plus, the 'must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place' guideline is overlooked by many people when attaching containers, clues, etc to existing fenceposts or telephone poles. In this case, I'm thinking of those multi-caches where a clue or coordinates are found on a tag which has been attached to said pole.

I think what is overlooked under these circumstances is that pesky little box EVERYONE has to check when they submit a geocache for review that affirms they have read and understand the guidelines. Either they didn't read the guidelines, they didn't understand the guidelines, are they a flat out lied about the cache placement (usually by omission).

 

In a certain sense most ways of hiding a cache alter the hiding place. For example, by moving a stone to use it as camouflage already alters the hideout but very few cachers will have an issue with that sort of change (provided that it is not in a nature protection area).

 

Maybe part of the problem with the guidelines is that it is hard to distinguish between interpretations that are not intended and too strict and the intended ones.

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I once found a cache right next to wires inside a light pole. Didn't like it.

 

I once had to unscrew what I thought was an electrical box (later realized it was a phone box) and was very uncomfortable with that.

 

I once started to unscrew an electrical thing for a puzzle final and decided I was just too uncomfortable and left with a DNF. I later found out the final wasn't in that electrical thing anyway.

 

I've found an awful lot of caches nailed or screwed to trees. I know of at least one that was reported and archived.

 

 

I've pulled apart sprinkler heads, only to find they were not a cache.

I've noticed that if you screw an item to a tree you will get lots of favourite points.

I've visited parking lot lamp posts, expecting a skirt hide (which is bad enough) but instead it's in the hollow of the post behind the plate (which was missing a screw).

I've found a highly favoured cache in an electric conduit that looked quite real, it even had what looked like uncapped wires inside.

I visited a stadium light tower by a tennis court, where the base of the tower was exposed - conduit, wires, box-things. Everything looked as if it belonged. The clue was "yank hard". I was not about to go yanking hard on conduit, wires and electric boxes. I pushed lightly on a few things then walked away. Turned out to be a well disguised grey box that was attached with very strong magnets.

 

I post my concerns in my online log. I have posted photos to emphasize the issue and warn others.

 

I don't think reviewers will archive most lamp post caches or electric box caches, but it's worth a try if you have serious concerns. OP, post an NA with photos and specifics about the danger - see what happens, a reviewer might agree.

 

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Take a picture, and talk to the reviewer about it.

 

This is what I'm going to do about the cache with the hole drilled into the tree. I didn't think to take pictures at the time so I'll have to return to the area for those first.

 

I think you'll find that reviewers will often share your concerns when they are aware of an issue. The bigger problem is that many cache owners lie about these things, and then attack people for "snitching" when a reviewer finds out about them. We have a couple of cachers in this area who frequently bore large holes into trees for their caches, and they get away with it because nobody says anything out of fear of rocking the boat.

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Some safety issues are glaringly obvious:

 

[scary picture removed]

 

I would expect any reasonable person/cacher to do the right thing when they come up on something as obvious as this.

No, my word is not gospel, but it has gotten 100% of the caches I posted NA logs for dealt with, and made caching not only safer but better in my community . So apparently my words do have power.

Bottom line: Step up and do the right thing when you see something that is clearly wrong and places people at risk.

That could be anything from an NA log to let a reviewer decide to removing it on the spot- that would be your call to make.

I do not sit on fences- I take actions.

 

As we have seen other organizations (like the VDOT) are taking actions as well. Bad CO's and cachers made this mess, it will be up to the good ones to try to turn it around.

 

A needs-archived on a clearly unsafe cache doesn't work up here:

 

2ceaeb0c-c707-40be-ab28-116582b9012a.jpg

 

Apparently the reviewers are not the safety police

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I'm wondering what the thoughts are on the forum about potentially dangerous hiding spots. I've always thought lampskirt caches shouldn't be allowed because they could lead to electrocution. I'm seriously considering ignoring lamskirt caches altogether because of this, not to mention how incredibly boring they are but it never fails that I complete a difficult or lengthy challenge or Wherigo only to find the final hidden in a lampskirt.

 

I've even encountered caches hidden inside electrical boxes. One I found in Pensacola, FL was a piece of conduit on a telephone pole with an electrical box attached to the top. It looked completely functional and required a screwdriver to open. Considering the fact that we're supposed to encourage children to geocache, I don't like the idea of teaching kids to go poking around electrical outlets and boxes.

 

I also hate finding caches that are drilled into or nailed/screwed to living trees. This seems to defeat the whole 'green' idea of geocaching in my opinion.

 

The guidelines are fairly lenient in my opinion. So what are the thoughts of the other forum members? Where do you draw the line?

 

I have never found one like the tree drilled all the way through ( not a good thing ) but have probably found a thousand or so that were not correctly attached by a strict interpretation. Nothing was being harmed so we enjoyed the caches and moved on.....at least one was attached to a tree by a park ranger. I've never done a cache we thought was dangerous that was not written up as such on the cache page and had a difficulty rating to match ( hiking along a cliff, etc )

I guess if you see something that REALLY bothers you then you could report it.

Don't report too many though because I love caching in Alabama . :)

Edited by BAMBOOZLE
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I'm wondering what the thoughts are on the forum about potentially dangerous hiding spots. I've always thought lampskirt caches shouldn't be allowed because they could lead to electrocution. I'm seriously considering ignoring lamskirt caches altogether because of this, not to mention how incredibly boring they are but it never fails that I complete a difficult or lengthy challenge or Wherigo only to find the final hidden in a lampskirt.

 

I've even encountered caches hidden inside electrical boxes. One I found in Pensacola, FL was a piece of conduit on a telephone pole with an electrical box attached to the top. It looked completely functional and required a screwdriver to open. Considering the fact that we're supposed to encourage children to geocache, I don't like the idea of teaching kids to go poking around electrical outlets and boxes.

 

I also hate finding caches that are drilled into or nailed/screwed to living trees. This seems to defeat the whole 'green' idea of geocaching in my opinion.

 

The guidelines are fairly lenient in my opinion. So what are the thoughts of the other forum members? Where do you draw the line?

There are many forum threads on each subject you present here.

  1. Lampskirts generally do not have wires under them. They are generally there to cover the bolts where the lamp is attached to a base structure. While "lame" to many, it isn't that dangerous a hide. The real danger with a LPC is if the cache actually has permission to be there...
  2. Electrical Boxes can be a problem. I've seen many a fake box attached to a real box where the real one shows signs of tampering. Not cool. I feel that if one hides at an electrical box, the hide should be obvious to the geocachers who seek it, but not obvious to muggles. This reduces the risks of tampering and electrocution quite a bit. Good hints and clear descriptions go a long way...and they're still fun to find even if they aren't "difficult".
  3. Screwed/nailed to a tree seems to have be clarified and then detuned and retuned many a time. I've found Reviewers in 3 states I've lived over 10 years on this site to have varying opinions on how to handle such caches. My personal rule of thumb is to not hide a cache which requires nails or screws to living trees. This goes for personal property as well as "public property".
  4. Buried caches (partially or fully) aren't mentioned in your list, but are another example where the Blog or "cache of the month" feature might be partially or completely buried. I think this is a very important topic, especially in light of Land Managers and how they see this game being played elesewhere--and what that might mean for how it is played on their lands.

 

The bigger issue here is the many geocachers out there, the many Reviewers, the many regions, and the many communities we have in this game. Consistency is key, and it lacks. I can speak to Land Manager issues, and that consistent messages about things like "buried" caches (yes, even partially--or "pushed gently into the ground" caches) and electrical boxes (or other utilities or areas where tampering might be a problem--irrigation/watering for example...).

 

Just talking on these forums about things being "a bad idea" or "poor form" isn't enough. Groundspeak really needs to be more consistent on these things, and on down the line to Reviewers and users as well. We're a small group here on the forums, and opinions don't really matter. What matters in the end is a set of guidelines with clearer interpretations and consistent enforcement.

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Just talking on these forums about things being "a bad idea" or "poor form" isn't enough. Groundspeak really needs to be more consistent on these things, and on down the line to Reviewers and users as well. We're a small group here on the forums, and opinions don't really matter. What matters in the end is a set of guidelines with clearer interpretations and consistent enforcement.

 

Reviewers are better positioned to determine what works and what doesn't within their areas of jurisdiction. They are also better positioned to discuss and work with cache owners on a case-by-case basis. This game won't work in the long run if it's too top-down.

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Apparently the reviewers are not the safety police. <link removed>

You are correct. Neither Groundspeak or the Community Volunteer Reviewers are "safety police." Groundspeak is only a cache listing service. Liability lies with the Cacher, the Cache Owner and the Land Manager that gave permission for the cache. Edited by Ladybug Kids
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Apparently the reviewers are not the safety police. <link removed>

You are correct. Neither Groundspeak or the Community Volunteer Reviewers are "safety police." Groundspeak is only a cache listing service. Liability lies with the Cacher, the Cache Owner and the Land Manager that gave permission for the cache.

If Groundspeak and/or the Community Volunteer Reviewers were grossly negligent, then liability could lie with them as well.

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Some safety issues are glaringly obvious:

 

[scary picture removed]

 

I would expect any reasonable person/cacher to do the right thing when they come up on something as obvious as this.

No, my word is not gospel, but it has gotten 100% of the caches I posted NA logs for dealt with, and made caching not only safer but better in my community . So apparently my words do have power.

Bottom line: Step up and do the right thing when you see something that is clearly wrong and places people at risk.

That could be anything from an NA log to let a reviewer decide to removing it on the spot- that would be your call to make.

I do not sit on fences- I take actions.

 

As we have seen other organizations (like the VDOT) are taking actions as well. Bad CO's and cachers made this mess, it will be up to the good ones to try to turn it around.

 

A needs-archived on a clearly unsafe cache doesn't work up here:

 

2ceaeb0c-c707-40be-ab28-116582b9012a.jpg

 

Apparently the reviewers are not the safety police

 

A cache hidden in an unsafe spot such as the above really isn't grounds for archival. Multitudes of caches would be archived if safety alone was an issue.

 

A cacher would need to ask the owner or manager of the property where the above cache is hidden to see if permission was ever given. Most likely, he or she is gonna say that it was not. Logging a NA at this point would probably get results.

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The OP mentioned Lampskirts. This is not a lampskirt and if cachers who believe this to be unsafe then they should send the picture to the reviewer or appeals. Reviewers have no idea how a cache is hidden unless the CO clearly spells it out to them. But sorry some reviewers do look the other way. I just had a conversation with a friend in Arizona that defends some caches that have guidelines violations. One she mentioned (not grandfathered) that was buried fully in the ground with permission from the city. I thought even though if permission is granted from lets say city, county or whatever, guidelines still say CACHES ARE NOT TO BE BURIED.

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Cache Owners are supposed to provide details about their hides and permission in the "Reviewer Note" box.

They are? :unsure: Since when? If asked, sure. But I don't normally provide any information unless I am asked for it.

On the cache submission form:

Reviewer Note:

To help expedite your geocache's publishing, please provide any details or information that would be helpful to the geocache's reviewer.

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Cache Owners are supposed to provide details about their hides and permission in the "Reviewer Note" box.

They are? :unsure: Since when? If asked, sure. But I don't normally provide any information unless I am asked for it.

On the cache submission form:

Reviewer Note:

To help expedite your geocache's publishing, please provide any details or information that would be helpful to the geocache's reviewer.

 

I don't read that as a requirement. I read that as "If you wish to expedite the publication of your cache, it would behoove you to pre-answer any expected questions for your reviewer". I have had most of my 148 caches published without providing any information, nor being asked for it. I guess a lot of that has to do with trust that you build up with your reviewer over time, perhaps?

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This is what our reviewer requires before publishing.

 

 

I'm asking EVERYONE to answer a few simple questions. While you may have included some of the information in the cache description, I really appreciate that you're taking the time to respond to my questions - Please post your response in a reviewer note on the cache page, and then enable the listing.

 

1) Please name the property your cache is placed on (simply stating that it is public property WILL NOT suffice for an explanation). If you have gotten permission, please include contact information in your reviewer note. Any cache that is at a business (private property) should have permission from the business owner/manager/security personnel. Cemetery hides should have permission from the caretaker of the property (town or church, usually).

 

2) Please explain what type of container your cache is. Please note that ammo boxes should have military markings removed or covered up, and that a well-labeled container can help your cache from being mistaken as something dangerous!

 

3) Please explain how your cache is hidden. Caches should NEVER be buried. Holes should NEVER be drilled into trees, and zipties don't do damage to trees like nails and screws can.

 

Generally speaking - the more information you can provide, the quicker the reviewing process goes, and the faster your cache gets published!

 

a common practice around here and a good one if you ask me.

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This is what our reviewer requires before publishing.

 

 

I'm asking EVERYONE to answer a few simple questions. While you may have included some of the information in the cache description, I really appreciate that you're taking the time to respond to my questions - Please post your response in a reviewer note on the cache page, and then enable the listing.

 

1) Please name the property your cache is placed on (simply stating that it is public property WILL NOT suffice for an explanation). If you have gotten permission, please include contact information in your reviewer note. Any cache that is at a business (private property) should have permission from the business owner/manager/security personnel. Cemetery hides should have permission from the caretaker of the property (town or church, usually).

 

2) Please explain what type of container your cache is. Please note that ammo boxes should have military markings removed or covered up, and that a well-labeled container can help your cache from being mistaken as something dangerous!

 

3) Please explain how your cache is hidden. Caches should NEVER be buried. Holes should NEVER be drilled into trees, and zipties don't do damage to trees like nails and screws can.

 

Generally speaking - the more information you can provide, the quicker the reviewing process goes, and the faster your cache gets published!

 

a common practice around here and a good one if you ask me.

 

It has been a year or more since my last hides. Perhaps things have become more strict. I will say that the reviewer did ask for some information on my last couple of hides that I had never been asked for in the past.

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This is what our reviewer requires before publishing.

 

 

I'm asking EVERYONE to answer a few simple questions. While you may have included some of the information in the cache description, I really appreciate that you're taking the time to respond to my questions - Please post your response in a reviewer note on the cache page, and then enable the listing.

 

1) Please name the property your cache is placed on (simply stating that it is public property WILL NOT suffice for an explanation). If you have gotten permission, please include contact information in your reviewer note. Any cache that is at a business (private property) should have permission from the business owner/manager/security personnel. Cemetery hides should have permission from the caretaker of the property (town or church, usually).

 

2) Please explain what type of container your cache is. Please note that ammo boxes should have military markings removed or covered up, and that a well-labeled container can help your cache from being mistaken as something dangerous!

 

3) Please explain how your cache is hidden. Caches should NEVER be buried. Holes should NEVER be drilled into trees, and zipties don't do damage to trees like nails and screws can.

 

Generally speaking - the more information you can provide, the quicker the reviewing process goes, and the faster your cache gets published!

 

a common practice around here and a good one if you ask me.

 

This is a good list. Thanks for sharing.

 

The reviewer I deal with in Alabama uses the same profile for reviewing as he does caching, and does not include any information about helping the review process. The two reviewers I deal with in Florida keep ample information on their profiles to aid in the review process.

 

I typically try to provide a good deal of info both to expedite publication and ease the mind of the reviewer, but I'm always looking to provide more.

Edited by blackdog7
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It has been a year or more since my last hides. Perhaps things have become more strict. I will say that the reviewer did ask for some information on my last couple of hides that I had never been asked for in the past.

Which one? :ph34r:

 

The one that lives closer to where I live. :ph34r: :ph34r:

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Ughhh, electrical boxes. I DNFd a cache recently that could have either been somewhere on a telephone pole OR on any of the dozen or so cable, electric, etc. boxes on the side of a building a few feet from the pole. The hint was something like "You will not be shocked by how easy this is." Wait...does that mean it is on the electrical stuff, or isn't? It was also listed as a D1, and several logs stated something about how hard it was to find. Glanced at all the bits for a minute and walked away. Not interested. A while later I found a magnetic hide-a-key on the underside of a big green electrical box that could be seen standing a few feet away...no issues there.

 

I will say that working for a forest preserve, I have been sorely tempted to stick a pill fob into one of the holes left after we collect maple sap for syrup--they are just the right size. Maybe some time I'll make one of the buckets into a cache and leave it out there, instead...I wonder if I would get reviewer permission for that?

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Problem is sticking something in one of those holes isn't a violation, but the tree may decide to eat the container or make it too sticky for cachers to want to deal with.

I found a nice hole in a tree and the hole developed thick fungus and ate my cache.

Edited by jellis
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I'm wondering what the thoughts are on the forum about potentially dangerous hiding spots. I've always thought lampskirt caches shouldn't be allowed because they could lead to electrocution. I'm seriously considering ignoring lamskirt caches altogether because of this, not to mention how incredibly boring they are but it never fails that I complete a difficult or lengthy challenge or Wherigo only to find the final hidden in a lampskirt.

 

I've even encountered caches hidden inside electrical boxes. One I found in Pensacola, FL was a piece of conduit on a telephone pole with an electrical box attached to the top. It looked completely functional and required a screwdriver to open. Considering the fact that we're supposed to encourage children to geocache, I don't like the idea of teaching kids to go poking around electrical outlets and boxes.

 

I also hate finding caches that are drilled into or nailed/screwed to living trees. This seems to defeat the whole 'green' idea of geocaching in my opinion.

 

The guidelines are fairly lenient in my opinion. So what are the thoughts of the other forum members? Where do you draw the line?

There are many forum threads on each subject you present here.

  1. Lampskirts generally do not have wires under them. They are generally there to cover the bolts where the lamp is attached to a base structure. While "lame" to many, it isn't that dangerous a hide. The real danger with a LPC is if the cache actually has permission to be there...
  2. Electrical Boxes can be a problem. I've seen many a fake box attached to a real box where the real one shows signs of tampering. Not cool. I feel that if one hides at an electrical box, the hide should be obvious to the geocachers who seek it, but not obvious to muggles. This reduces the risks of tampering and electrocution quite a bit. Good hints and clear descriptions go a long way...and they're still fun to find even if they aren't "difficult".
  3. Screwed/nailed to a tree seems to have be clarified and then detuned and retuned many a time. I've found Reviewers in 3 states I've lived over 10 years on this site to have varying opinions on how to handle such caches. My personal rule of thumb is to not hide a cache which requires nails or screws to living trees. This goes for personal property as well as "public property".
  4. Buried caches (partially or fully) aren't mentioned in your list, but are another example where the Blog or "cache of the month" feature might be partially or completely buried. I think this is a very important topic, especially in light of Land Managers and how they see this game being played elesewhere--and what that might mean for how it is played on their lands.

 

The bigger issue here is the many geocachers out there, the many Reviewers, the many regions, and the many communities we have in this game. Consistency is key, and it lacks. I can speak to Land Manager issues, and that consistent messages about things like "buried" caches (yes, even partially--or "pushed gently into the ground" caches) and electrical boxes (or other utilities or areas where tampering might be a problem--irrigation/watering for example...).

 

Just talking on these forums about things being "a bad idea" or "poor form" isn't enough. Groundspeak really needs to be more consistent on these things, and on down the line to Reviewers and users as well. We're a small group here on the forums, and opinions don't really matter. What matters in the end is a set of guidelines with clearer interpretations and consistent enforcement.

I like this and should be taken seriously with all reviewers. I heard that Groundspeak sometimes has meetings of reviewers, don't things like this get discussed? I know some show up here because I know a few of them.

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