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Groundspeaks lays down some event time rules...


ArtieD
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Wow, your idea of an event is bo-ring! I'm still trying to imagine your event where people "sit or stand around" for 30 minutes. :unsure:

 

I'd guess that those 30 minutes would be filled with lively conversation, introductions, sharing of caching stories, and perhaps some other banter about the game. Then, there might be a few moments where the organizer gets everyone's attention to announce that those going for the hike should lace up their boots and zip up their jackets. Hardly just "sitting and standing around".

 

I never said only sitting and standing around. Socializing, lively conversations, sharing of caching stories can take place as well when one is moving around and I prefer this by far from a personal point of view. So no, my reason for asking why this stress on the static aspect of an event is so important is not for arguments's sake.

 

Of course there are workarounds and it's not a deadly disease we need to cure. But still I do not understand the rationale behind it.

 

I really wonder whether sharing cache stories while walking (or some other form of moving around) is not socializing to you and to Groundspeak respectively.

 

The idea that the event is found at coordinates is the "sitting and standing around" part to you. Those coordinates are where the event is happening (additional coordinates can be added for parts of the Event Cache listing...).

 

Additional coordinates will not change the fact that the apparent expectation is like at for the registration desk of a conference - hardly what I have in mind for a geocache event.

 

Somehow saying that those coordinates are where the event is happening means that the sitting and standing around (meant to describe the somehow static setting) is the only legitimate mode of allowing for socializing which is part of the actual event. That's very strange in my opinion.

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Is the social aspect of geocaching drinking a beer, or is it going out and finding caches? I think I now know what Groundspeak thinks it is.

 

It's definitely sitting or standing around and eat and drink. One cannot even go out and walk around (with no cache searching at all) for what an event means to Groundspeak.

 

My interpretation of Groundspeaks response regarding events is that geocaching events are about geocaching, not for geocaching.

 

So you think that hiking, paddling, ice skating and talking about geocaching is geocaching and sitting around and eating and talking about geocaching is about geocaching?

I cannot follow this weird kind of logic, sorry.

 

You didn't parse what I wrote correctly (and you're missing a "not" before the second instance of "geocaching" in your response). What GS has been trying to discourage is people is creating a event page which basically announces a location for people to meet, then disperse off in different directions in their cars to go find a bunch of caches. That would be an event created *for* geocaching. To me, the primary reason for an geocaching event is social. It's an opportunity to meet new local geocachers and and rekindle friendships with those you have met before. It can include activities such as instructional talks (.e.g. reviewer panels at big events), raffles of geocaching paraphernalia, and other things specifically about geocaching.

 

Hiking, paddling, ice skating, or bicycle rides are all things that geocaches might enjoy but they're all things can be done outside the scope of geocaching. Meeting at some location and going on a bicycle ride and occasionally asking someone "how many finds do you have?" doesn't make it a geocaching event. It's more of a bicycle ride where someone might say something about geocaching. There's nothing stopping you from organizing a hiking, paddle, or ice skating event and inviting geocachers along but there may be hiking, paddling, or ice-skating forum where you can announce the event and use a local geocaching mailing list or socical media group to invite geocachers. GS just want us to use their listing site to announce event when the primary purpose of the event is not about socializing with other geocachers.

 

 

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So you think that hiking, paddling, ice skating and talking about geocaching is geocaching and sitting around and eating and talking about geocaching is about geocaching?

I cannot follow this weird kind of logic, sorry.

 

You didn't parse what I wrote correctly (and you're missing a "not" before the second instance of "geocaching" in your response).

 

I still think that I parsed everything correctly, but maybe I did not end up formulating my reply in correct English.

I never questioned that events that are organized to go geocaching (as part of the event) should be discouraged.

 

 

What GS has been trying to discourage is people is creating a event page which basically announces a location for people to meet, then disperse off in different directions in their cars to go find a bunch of caches. That would be an event created *for* geocaching.

 

I fully agree with this stance.

 

To me, the primary reason for an geocaching event is social. It's an opportunity to meet new local geocachers and and rekindle friendships with those you have met before. It can include activities such as instructional talks (.e.g. reviewer panels at big events), raffles of geocaching paraphernalia, and other things specifically about geocaching.

-----

Hiking, paddling, ice skating, or bicycle rides are all things that geocaches might enjoy but they're all things can be done outside the scope of geocaching.

 

Eating pizza, playing games, having a raffle can be done outside too.

 

I always used to think that the distinctive property is that geocachers meet and talk to each other and I never thought that attending instructional talks, taking part in a raffle and eating pizza while talking about geocaching adventures is better than walking while talking about geocaching and learning to know new cachers and meeting friends again.

 

Meeting at some location and going on a bicycle ride and occasionally asking someone "how many finds do you have?" doesn't make it a geocaching event.

 

Apparently having been asked this question at the Groundspeak headquarter has left you with an issue with this question. I neither would ask that question during an event hike nor while eating pizza at a meet and greet event (nor at any other occasion).

 

I have the very same type of communication in the same intensity in mind when thinking of an event walk as when thinking of an event at a pizzeria or pub. Not everyone will be equally talkative, but that's true in any setting.

 

 

It's more of a bicycle ride where someone might say something about geocaching. There's nothing stopping you from organizing a hiking, paddle, or ice skating event and inviting geocachers along but there may be hiking, paddling, or ice-skating forum where you can announce the event and use a local geocaching mailing list or socical media group to invite geocachers. GS just want us to use their listing site to announce event when the primary purpose of the event is not about socializing with other geocachers.

 

I still do not get how you define socializing. Is sitting in a pub and leaving after 10 minutes because one hates the smoky and loud atmosphere there more social than spending 2 hours walking with the event attendants and talking much more and longer to the other attendants?

 

The primary purpose of an event is socializing. Fine. I do not question this.

I question that sitting in a pub or standing at a parking lot or sitting at a camp ground during the process of socializing is the only allowed form of socializing and seen as superior to other forms and seen as better suitable to the spirit of geocaching events.

 

I would say that if the same level of socializing takes place, it is the choice of everyone to decide what is their preferred mode of socializing.

Somehow it cann't be that sitting in a pub and talking about geocaching is seen as superior over walking around and talking about geocaching.

There might be other reasons for Groundspeak to enforce static events, but the socializing requirement is then not the right argument.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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I'm curious if there will be changes to what counts as an "attended". If people are still allowed to show up for 30 seconds and then leave, but still count it as "attended" than I really don't see how the rule change will have much of an effect. On the other hand, will event organizers be given leave to delete/police attended logs for folks that don't really stick around for the minimum duration? I don't see that happening either, especially for Mega events (requiring people to be there for 4 hours!). On first examination, the only thing that may have changed is what you are allowed to write on the listing itself. Maybe I'm just not thinking clearly though.

I think this is somewhat like the guideline that you have to demonstrate that GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and seeking caches. Nobody says that someone who finds the cache using a map and compass instead of GPS can't log it. The 30 minute limit demonstrates that attendees have a opportunity to socialize for the minimum amount of time (according to TPTB) you need for socializing. Nobody can force the wall flower to socialize, and you can't force people to stay for the entire event.

 

Hiking, paddling, ice skating, or bicycle rides are all things that geocache[r]s might enjoy but they're all things can be done outside the scope of geocaching.

Drinking beer and even meeting friends can be done outside the scope of geocaching.

 

Meeting at some location and going on a bicycle ride and occasionally asking someone "how many finds do you have?" doesn't make it a geocaching event. It's more of a bicycle ride where someone might say something about geocaching.

I don't like people telling me what activities comprise socializing in a geocaching context. Groundspeak can't enforce that with rules. They can only decide what events they will publish. Then have arbitrarilly decided that an event must be in one place for at least a minimum duration. For many people this seems to be an unnecessarily narrow definition. I think it comes down to Groundspeak being forced to write guidelines to resolve disputes over WIGAS points. People showing up late for the start of a hike or for a flash mob complain. It's easier to say "You get a WIGAS point for showing up at the event location anytime between the start time and the end time"

Edited by tozainamboku
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30 minutes for an event is no big deal. A good event would be longer any way. I spent the last 30 minutes reading this thread, so it is not a long time. Many events are now just an excuse to do some group geocaching or to sign in at a fixed point and then go out geocaching. To me, that is really not an event, but rather it is an excuse for another smiley. Good events has stuff like food, drink, games, prizes, vendors, kids activities, and true socializing.The Hampton Roads Geocachers put on a good mega event like this. But something simple like meeting at a clubhouse or restaurant works too.

 

Good events for me do not involve anything what you mentioned. I enjoy events the most where some outdoor physical activity takes place which is not geocaching. I do not even appreciate if new caches are hidden in connection with an event which are then visited by all attendants before or after their visit to the event.

 

I really wonder why some cachers apparently think that every event needs to be exactly as it is convenient for them. Who has the right to define what is true socializing? I'm neither interested into games, prizes, even less vendors nor kids activities at an event which pleases me. Do not misunderstand me: The events you like are great for their audience and I welcome that they exist. But I find it quite strange that every event has to appeal to the same kind of people.

Man, you like to argue for the sake of arguing don't you. My list of event types was not meant to be all inclusive and I believe most people would realize that. The type of events you are describing sound good too.

 

Although there are numerous areas where I do not agree with the Big Green, they do have a broad view of what's going on with geocaching, a view that we cannot see. I am assuming that they are seeing enough event abuse where they feel the need for some structure. Since the key element to an event is socializing with other geocachers, any event should be geared to do so. I am sure you, with the help of reviewers, should be able to incorporate activities in and around the event. To structure at least 30 minutes to consist of some type of socializing should not be a show stopper.

 

Try to think of the bigger picture of what GS is trying to do; that is to make events be events.

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I'm thinking it just makes it easier for reviewers to deny events that seem "iffy"...like flash mobs in a Walmart parking lot and such. Imposing a 30 minute minimum means reviewers can justify saying 'no' to an event because having a group of twenty congregating in a Walmart parking lot for 30 minutes violates the 'no loitering' policies...or might trigger a response from security in some fashion.

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No matter the rationale, new guidelines always result in banning some sort of cache that is popular - at least for some segment of geocachers.
If this thread is still about Events and CITOs, I don’t see that anything has been banned.

 

Oh, wait, this is an even bigger change than the time limit. Until now, the owner didn't have to attend for the event to be legitimate. Now if the owner doesn't show up, it doesn't count as an event? If he leaves early, is someone supposed to report it to the reviewer?
There is nothing in the Guidelines that says a role can’t be delegated. Events have been held and will continue to be held without the Event Host being present. Life happens...

If a cacher has a concern about how an event was hosted, it should be reported to Groundspeak at http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=request. Refereeing cacher disputes is not in a Reviewer’s job description.

 

Cachers don’t need to parse the Guidelines looking only black and white. There are lots of shades of color in between that can be filled in with just a touch of the creativity individual cachers bring to the game.

Edited by Greatland Reviewer
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There is nothing in the Guidelines that says a role can’t be delegated. Events have been held and will continue to be held without the Event Host being present. Life happens...

The reason I don't understand this response is that I don't recall the guidelines listing any responsibilities at all for the host at the time of the event, so I don't know what you're saying needs to be delegated. Heck, since a log book isn't required, he doesn't even need to get a log book there. The guidelines say what can be an event and how to post an event, but nothing I can find says the host has to be there for the event itself.

 

So again I ask: is this a change, so now a host has to be there for some purpose or else delegate to someone else to be there for that purpose? If so, could you specify those responsibilities? I'm not seeing this clearly spelled out, but your responses imply that the host's presence is the actual definition of the event's time period. But what I'm not understanding is what the penalty would be if he left early. Would the event suddenly become invalid so no one can log attended?

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No matter the rationale, new guidelines always result in banning some sort of cache that is popular - at least for some segment of geocachers.
If this thread is still about Events and CITOs, I don’t see that anything has been banned.

Flash mob events as we knew them have been banned. Sure, we can follow your suggestion and drink beer for half an hour at some fixed location then go to the mall for a "flash mob". But I contend this is substantially different what we currently see as a geocaching flash mob. Cachers are out and about - either geocaching or doing other things - then all show up at a designated location at a particular time. They socialize for five minutes, then go back to whatever they were doing.

 

Before the guideline change you could have a five minute event. Now five minute events are banned.

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Man, you like to argue for the sake of arguing don't you. My list of event types was not meant to be all inclusive and I believe most people would realize that. The type of events you are describing sound good too.

 

No, I'm not argue for the sake of arguing here. I understood that your list was not exhaustive. I just tried to convey my point that while for me nothing what you listed is essential for an event that I do enjoy, some of the aspects that I enjoy are somehow banned from what is regarded as actual event by Groundspeak and I'm sad about that.

 

To structure at least 30 minutes to consist of some type of socializing should not be a show stopper.

 

Somehow I start to wonder whether socializing means something different in North America than what it means to me.

Of course, socializing is the key aspect of any normal event (for CITOS something else is added).

I never questioned this aspect of events.

 

I just wonder why it is socializing to talk with others cachers about geocaching while eating pizza and drinking beer while it is not socializing to talk with other cachers while walking along a forest trail (just two arbitrary examples). I simply do not get it.

 

In my opinion, an event along the lines of Neversummer's orginal proposal (without the addition that the event owner waits for the attendants at one fixed location for at least 30 contiguous minutes) fulfills the requirement of lasting at least 30 minutes and involve plenty of socializing. Still such an event is not publishable which of course we all have to accept. I will never understand however what makes such events less well suited for socializing than much shorter static events.

 

 

Try to think of the bigger picture of what GS is trying to do; that is to make events be events.

 

As I said many times before, I have never thought of flash mobs as real events. Any attempt to think of the bigger picture would require me to understand why events where there is not someone waiting for 30 minutes for normal events and an hour for CITOS at a fixed location are not regarded as events regardless of what takes place and for how long.

 

For CITOs the new rule seems even more absurd to me - not the fact that CITO should last for at least an hour, but that someone should be present at the header coordinates of the CITO. CITOs are for picking up trash and similar activities which are dynamic by definition.

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If this thread is still about Events and CITOs, I don’t see that anything has been banned.

 

Even though I did not attend a single flash mob event or an event that took place for less than 30 minutes, almost all of the events I attended could not take place in the way they took place without serious changes. With each change it becomes more cumbersome to get listed certain events or not possible at all. The available events become more and more similar to each other.

Edited by cezanne
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Somehow I start to wonder whether socializing means something different in North America than what it means to me.

Of course, socializing is the key aspect of any normal event (for CITOS something else is added).

I never questioned this aspect of events.

 

I just wonder why it is socializing to talk with others cachers about geocaching while eating pizza and drinking beer while it is not socializing to talk with other cachers while walking along a forest trail (just two arbitrary examples). I simply do not get it.

I think it might be too simple a concept, and you're making it complex.

 

The idea is that an event--of any type or design--is to be held at the posted coordinates, and now has clarified duration requirements.

 

You can still hike, bike, skate, walk, gambol, and leapfrog.

 

It does sound like the host (or proxy) needs to be present for 30 minutes, minimum, for the event to be published.

 

I still think that, as a host of events, it isn't that hard to be present at the coords for a 30-minute window. There's arriving, unpacking, etc that can happen. Surely getting ready at the set coordinates before a hike or trek can be stretched by the listing owner to 30 minutes. Some might show up and only "need 5 minutes" to get ready for the trek, but the trek isn't the event--the parking lot gathering to brief and meet everyone is the event.

 

Edit to add for CITO:

My best guess, from what Greatland Reviewer clarified, is that a CITO would have listed coordinates and last 1 hour at minimum. The listing owner might wander off down the way to work on the CITO project, but there should be clear language in the listing about how to find the group if they've moved from those coordinates. "Look for the city work truck" or "Someone will be within view from the Coordinates at all times to direct you to where the group has moved to work on the project..."

 

I think that the interpretation by Reviewers of the duration and location requirements for Event Caches and CITO Caches are going to be handled differently from one another. They are, after all, different cache types.

Edited by NeverSummer
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The idea is that an event--of any type or design--is to be held at the posted coordinates, and now has clarified duration requirements.

 

Yes, I have got this from the beginning. I dared to question whether the combination of these two rules makes sense when one explains them with the socializing aspect.

 

My point is that if the coordinates are fixed, they could at least leave the duration unlimited.

If they want to eliminate flash mobs and such events, there is no need to retrict events to the posted coordinates.

 

My personal favourite would be having lower limits for the duration, but allow dynamic events.

 

 

It does sound like the host (or proxy) needs to be present for 30 minutes, minimum, for the event to be published.

 

At one fixed location, yes, and at least 1 hour for a CITO (completely absurd to keep the host or someone else from taking part in the CITO).

 

It apparently is not sufficient if the host is available 10 minutes at location 1, 10 minutes at location 2 and 10 minutes at location 3 which definitely serves the same purpose for

socializing.

 

Some might show up and only "need 5 minutes" to get ready for the trek, but the trek isn't the event--the parking lot gathering to brief and meet everyone is the event.

 

But that is exactly what I find disappointing. How can be something as trivial and boring as gathering on a parking lot be the actual event? In the early days I thought of events as something very special and even was very unhappy when the first regular meet and greets showed up. Your example is perfectly suited to demonstrate why I'm so unhappy how some types of events got banned or degraded into something which only can happen after an artificial actual event noone of the target audience is interested into.

 

I neither need a speech nor a briefing.

 

 

 

Edit to add for CITO:

My best guess, from what Greatland Reviewer clarified, is that a CITO would have listed coordinates and last 1 hour at minimum. The listing owner might wander off down the way to work on the CITO project, but there should be clear language in the listing about how to find the group if they've moved from those coordinates. "Look for the city work truck" or "Someone will be within view from the Coordinates at all times to direct you to where the group has moved to work on the project..."

 

All totally inacceptable from my point of view. I know CITOS where the route the cachers walk along is 5km long or longer.

Edited by cezanne
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All totally inacceptable <sic> from my point of view. I know CITOS where the route the cachers walk along is 5km long or longer.

Well, I'm out of suggestions. It sounds as though you've already made up your mind, and any requests you've made for people to explain the new guideline rationale to you end up just being a veiled attempt at inciting more arguments. I believe that behavior is called "trolling"? :anicute:

 

The guidelines are not "black and white", as Greatland Reviewer mentioned. There can be many ways to work with your Reviewer on getting a listing approved within the construct of the guidelines for cache placement. All of your hypotheticals mean nothing until you've tried to get it published.

 

Your next step is to appeal to Groundspeak directly with your concerns and objections. Please keep us up to speed on how that discussion goes.

Edited by NeverSummer
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Your next step is to appeal to Groundspeak directly with your concerns and objections. Please keep us up to speed on how that discussion goes.

 

Of course I will not appeal to Groundspeak. It is their right to come up with whichever rules for normal events and CITOs they want. They also could require that there needs to be food offered at every event.

 

I would appeal if I got a cache rejected that I feel conforms with the guidelines.

 

Given the new guidelines for events and CITOs I would not expect that CITOs which do not fulfill one of the requirements you listed above get published. So I would neither submit such an event

nor would I recommend it to anyone else.

 

What I meant with totally unacceptable is that from my point of view what you suggest is not a workaround which does not change the character of the CITOs that will take place.It somehow degrades the role of an event organiser (or a proxy) to staff sitting at a registration desk.

 

In your formulation I always end up with the feeling that you seem to be of the opinion that the new rules do not seriously affect the nature of CITOs and events that can take place.

It all sounds like make some minor adaptions and then everyone will be happy and will feel like a winner which I do not agree with.

 

There has been a time when I regretted it very much that no favourite points can be awarded to events. With the way events are changing leading e.g. to the case that the briefing on a parking lot is the event and not the activity thereafter, it becomes moot anyway. What people will remember and value years later is certainly not the experience of waiting for all participants to arrive.

Edited by cezanne
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Your next step is to appeal to Groundspeak directly with your concerns and objections. Please keep us up to speed on how that discussion goes.

 

Of course I will not appeal to Groundspeak. It is their right to come up with whichever rules for normal events and CITOs they want. They also could require that there needs to be food offered at every event.

 

I would appeal if I got a cache rejected that I feel conforms with the guidelines.

 

Given the new guidelines for events and CITOs I would not expect that CITOs which do not fulfill one of the requirements you listed above get published. So I would neither submit such an event

nor would I recommend it to anyone else.

 

What I meant with totally unacceptable is that from my point of view what you suggest is not a workaround which does not change the character of the CITOs that will take place.

In your formulation I always end up with the feeling that you seem to be of the opinion that the new rules do not seriously affect the nature of CITOs and events that can take place.

It all sounds like make some minor adaptions and then everyone will be happy and will feel like a winner which I do not agree with.

If you think that you wouldn't be able to get a 5km CITO published, you've got an awfully dark view of things. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd still get a CITO event published if you state a time over 1 hour, and also that people need to "catch up" if you've moved on down the line for the CITO project. See: "Not black-and-white"...

 

And if you're unwilling to simply change how you write an Event Cache description to include the 30 minutes of duration at the stated coordinates, I don't know where your impatience has a boundary. You may not "need a briefing or speech", but others might. And that isn't a 30-minute state-of-the-union address either...sheesh! There are simple ways to fill the 30-minute window, but you seem intent on trolling the subject because you just want to get somewhere to start and run up the trail. 30 minutes is a simple and short enough time for a listing owner to show up, wait for folks to get there, and then get going at the start time for your hike. If you can't spare 30 minutes to host an event at set coordinates, don't host one, cezanne!

 

Yes, yes, you can "socialize" while hiking. But events have always been set at coordinates. Groundspeak is simply clarifying what that means. Geocaches of any kind on this website are located at a final spot, and Event Caches are no different; there are no more "moving caches" allowed.

 

You can still go for a hike or whatever you like, and you can still "socialize" on that hike. But you'll need to be sure that your Event Cache has a 30-minute window where people can come and go as they please at a set of coordinates. If this is a hardship for you...yikes.

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Let me add, apart from the back-and-forth with cezanne, something that has come to mind from this discussion:

 

The guidelines do not state or imply that the owner of the listing (or a proxy) need be present at the coordinates for the duration of the event (See https://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx).

 

Whereas this has clear and welcome implications for a CITO Cache event, it brings up a valid point for Groundspeak and Reviewers to consider with Event Caches.

 

My best guess, if I were to lean on my understanding of the guidelines, knowledge of the Review process, and interactions with Reviewers and organizers of CITOs and Event Caches, is that being clear in the description about how to "find the event, should someone not be at the listed coordinates" would work. I'd liken it to a kid coming to a playground filled with unfamiliar kids and then spotting their buddy across the sandbox. Or, perhaps, like arriving at a house party where you don't know everyone, and you come in and spot your best friend waving across the room and cross to join them. Or, perhaps, like getting to what you thought was the location of a social event, and you can't find anyone at all--so you ring your buddy on his cell phone to find out where everyone went.

 

All of this is possible, it seems to me, so long as there is a period of time for an Event Cache where someone is present to receive guests for a minimum of 30 minutes. I would guess this is also possible for a CITO Event if the listing owner posts clear instructions about the project and the nature of its movement to conduct the CITO, invasive weed pull, trail building, or tree planting... No?

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If you think that you wouldn't be able to get a 5km CITO published, you've got an awfully dark view of things. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd still get a CITO event published if you state a time over 1 hour, and also that people need to "catch up" if you've moved on down the line for the CITO project. See: "Not black-and-white"...

 

Maybe. So let's see which CITOs this year will show up. I just wrote how I understand the guidelines in the new form and how I interpret what a reviewer wrote above.

It always has been easier for me to think in terms of 0-1.

 

And if you're unwilling to simply change how you write an Event Cache description to include the 30 minutes of duration at the stated coordinates, I don't know where your impatience has a boundary. You may not "need a briefing or speech", but others might.

 

I never said that events with a briefing should be banned. I just think that every event organizer should be free to choose the setup for his/her event.

Those needing a briefing do not attend events which do not offer a briefing.

 

A vegetarian will probably not attend an event in a restaurant that only offers meat dishes when it takes place all day.

 

There are simple ways to fill the 30-minute window, but you seem intent on trolling the subject because you just want to get somewhere to start and run up the trail. 30 minutes is a simple and short enough time for a listing owner to show up, wait for folks to get there, and then get going at the start time for your hike. If you can't spare 30 minutes to host an event at set coordinates, don't host one, cezanne!

 

You did not get my concern. On the one hand, I'm concerned that the new rules will discourage the organizers of the type of event I like (and I cannot influence this as it is not about me and what I want to do). On the other hand, I'm disappointed that events which are party like are in a mucgh better position than events where some outdoor activity should be the attraction. For the party like events the attractions which bring the participants to the event and which will be the part they often will remember for many years are part of the actual and official event while in the outdoor activity setting, very artifical constructions are required where the actual event is something noone would consider to come for except those who need a "+1". That's somehow disappointing in my opinion.

 

 

You can still go for a hike or whatever you like, and you can still "socialize" on that hike. But you'll need to be sure that your Event Cache has a 30-minute window where people can come and go as they please at a set of coordinates. If this is a hardship for you...yikes.

 

See the above. Remember you wrote above "the hike is not the event, the event is the briefing on the parking lot". That somehow hurts my soul and the idea in my mind that events should be something special- the briefing on a parking lot will never be able to compare in terms of attractivity to any form of real event offering for example the activities some people mentioned above as relevant for them for a good event. Of course geocachers still can go for a hike - for doing so they do not need Groundspeak at all.

 

When the briefing at a parking lot is the actual event, I will not remember what might have happened afterwards in connection with the event. The event then just would be a means to increase my attended logs by one if I chose to log attended. Nothing more. To me it feels like comparing jewels with broken dirty glass.

I'm not intenting to act as a troll at all. The above is an attempt to explain how I feel, nothing more. I accept if noone feels like me here.

Edited by cezanne
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If I wanted to go on a hike with 15 people it would take at least half an hour for everyone to stop chatting, put sunscreen and bugspray on, fuss around with water bottles and backpacks, and wait for stragglers.

+1

Been to a couple of those.

Also a few where it was timed for us to be at the event coords after the long hike.

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If you think that you wouldn't be able to get a 5km CITO published, you've got an awfully dark view of things. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd still get a CITO event published if you state a time over 1 hour, and also that people need to "catch up" if you've moved on down the line for the CITO project. See: "Not black-and-white"...

 

Maybe. So let's see which CITOs this year will show up. I just wrote how I understand the guidelines in the new form and how I interpret what a reviewer wrote above.

It always has been easier for me to think in terms of 0-1.

 

And if you're unwilling to simply change how you write an Event Cache description to include the 30 minutes of duration at the stated coordinates, I don't know where your impatience has a boundary. You may not "need a briefing or speech", but others might.

 

I never said that events with a briefing should be banned. I just think that every event organizer should be free to choose the setup for his/her event.

Those needing a briefing do not attend events which do not offer a briefing.

W-w-w-w-w-w-wait a minute... BANNED? :blink: Talk about "0-1"... <_< You fixate on things too often, and don't look at big picture enough after you've latched onto something. Has anyone told you that before?

 

A vegetarian will probably not attend an event in a restaurant that only offers meat dishes when it takes place all day.

And just as people say, "You don't have to find all of the geocaches..." <insert heavy eyeroll here>

 

There are simple ways to fill the 30-minute window, but you seem intent on trolling the subject because you just want to get somewhere to start and run up the trail. 30 minutes is a simple and short enough time for a listing owner to show up, wait for folks to get there, and then get going at the start time for your hike. If you can't spare 30 minutes to host an event at set coordinates, don't host one, cezanne!

 

You did not get my concern. On the one hand, I'm concerned that the new rules will discourage the organizers of the type of event I like (and I cannot influence this as it is not about me and what I want to do). On the other hand, I'm disappointed that events which are party like are in a mucgh better position than events where some outdoor activity should be the attraction. For the party like events the attractions which bring the participants to the event and which will be the part they often will remember for many years are part of the actual and official event while in the outdoor activity setting, very artifical constructions are required where the actual event is something noone would consider to come for except those who need a "+1". That's somehow disappointing in my opinion.

See bolded. You know that has never been the "attraction" for an official Groundspeak-endorsed, Geocaching.com Event Cache in years and years, right?

 

YOU CAN STILL DO ALL THE THINGS, cezanne! (Wow, I just Caps-locked!) :shocked:

 

It is not an "artificial construct" to include a static event portion--it's what an event is supposed to be, if it is to be published as an Event Cache on Geocaching.com. All of the event "types" you like can still happen, they just need to have a willing listing owner who opens the event up for a trailhead 30-minute window at the beginning or end, an event posted at a mid-point lunch break on the hike or whatever, a pre/post-hike meal or coffee stop, etc. Nothing, I repeat, nothing is stopping you from doing the things you like about "events".

 

 

You can still go for a hike or whatever you like, and you can still "socialize" on that hike. But you'll need to be sure that your Event Cache has a 30-minute window where people can come and go as they please at a set of coordinates. If this is a hardship for you...yikes.

 

See the above. Remember you wrote above "the hike is not the event, the event is the briefing on the parking lot". That somehow hurts my soul and the idea in my mind that events should be something special- the briefing on a parking lot will never be able to compare in terms of attractivity to any form of real event offering for example the activities some people mentioned above as relevant for them for a good event. Of course geocachers still can go for a hike - for doing so they do not need Groundspeak at all.

 

When the briefing at a parking lot is the actual event, I will not remember what might have happened afterwards in connection with the event. The event then just would be a means to increase my attended logs by one if I chose to log attended. Nothing more. It's like comparing jewels with broken dirty glass.

Again, to the bolded: If this is a hardship for you...yikes.

 

If you have such a short memory that you can't attach a hike as a memorable experience because something as trivial as an Event Cache "Attended" log is the trigger point for your memories...YIKES. How is itany different? You can still have the event to gather people together at a set of coordinates for the required duration, and still get out to do the activity you set out to do. You'll still have the memories, and you can still write your log for the Event to highlight the things you loved about that day and the activities you took part in.

 

Geocaching is what you make it. If you want to make it a dark place of hurt souls, go for it!

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What do you think about new guideline requirements for minimum durations of event ?

(30 mins for event, 1 hour for Cito)

 

So does this mean that flash mobs will no longer be approved? Do they now have to be 30 minutes in duration? Or are they getting their own distinct classification?

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So again I ask: is this a change, so now a host has to be there for some purpose or else delegate to someone else to be there for that purpose? If so, could you specify those responsibilities? I'm not seeing this clearly spelled out, but your responses imply that the host's presence is the actual definition of the event's time period. But what I'm not understanding is what the penalty would be if he left early. Would the event suddenly become invalid so no one can log attended?

The Guidelines don't spell out a host's responsibility. I digressed a bit by applying my paradigm of an event where someone(s) is leading the festivities. Perhaps other regions have "hostless" events?

 

Besides, I wouldn't even try to spell out an event host's responsibilities because they would vary widely depending on the type, size, and location of an event and are well outside the reach of the Guidelines.

 

The Guidelines don't get into penalties. As a Reviewer, I won't be policing events. However, if it comes to my attention that an event host changed a Guideline-compliant Event to one that does not comply with the Guidelines after the Event is published, I would certainly look more carefully at Events submitted by the same cacher or group in the future.

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You know that has never been the "attraction" for an official Groundspeak-endorsed, Geocaching.com Event Cache in years and years, right?

 

Oh yes, it has in my area. Noone would have come for a briefing.

I experienced two full moon hiking events where everything was about the outdoor experience.

 

If you have such a short memory that you can't attach a hike as a memorable experience because something as trivial as an Event Cache "Attended" log is the trigger point for your memories...YIKES.

 

Of course I can remember the hike, but it will then be in no relation to the event. I rather would skip the event at all and attend the hike.

Events then become meaningless.

 

and you can still write your log for the Event to highlight the things you loved about that day and the activities you took part in.

 

I could, but why should I report about a beautiful hike in the log for a mundane parking lot event?

Why should I want to associate in my mind something beautiful with something artificially enforced?

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If you think that you wouldn't be able to get a 5km CITO published, you've got an awfully dark view of things. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd still get a CITO event published if you state a time over 1 hour, and also that people need to "catch up" if you've moved on down the line for the CITO project. See: "Not black-and-white"...

 

I don't know how widespread it is, but I've seen an "Adopt-A-Highway" program in many US States. About a mile and a half from here there is a following roadsign:

 

geolandmark-1.jpg

 

EH Geocachers is essentially two people that have adopted a two mile stretch of road. There have been two CITO events that I know of with a published coordinates for a meeting point at one end of the section of road. For one of them they event included an addtional waypoint in the long description at the other end of the road so that geocachers could start at either end and pick up trash. Those events seem to fit well in between black and white.

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If I wanted to go on a hike with 15 people it would take at least half an hour for everyone to stop chatting, put sunscreen and bugspray on, fuss around with water bottles and backpacks, and wait for stragglers.

 

If I go on a hike with other people, I will do all my preparations before the start and without communicating at all with someone as this distracts me and I might forget important things. When I'm ready for socializing, I'm eager to head off. Somehow this then would mean that I do not take part in what is the actual event in terms of Groundspeak and only in what comes thereafter and would be completely unsuitable as an event host and also would not be an even participant.

Edited by cezanne
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If I wanted to go on a hike with 15 people it would take at least half an hour for everyone to stop chatting, put sunscreen and bugspray on, fuss around with water bottles and backpacks, and wait for stragglers.

 

If I go on a hike with other people, I will do all my preparations before the start and without communicating at all with someone as this distracts me and I might forget important things. When I'm ready for socializing, I'm eager to head off. Somehow this then would mean that I do not take part in what is the actual event in terms of Groundspeak and only in what comes thereafter and would be completely unsuitable as an event host and also would not be an even participant.

 

I hate to say it, but not all caches are for all people. Events included.

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If I wanted to go on a hike with 15 people it would take at least half an hour for everyone to stop chatting, put sunscreen and bugspray on, fuss around with water bottles and backpacks, and wait for stragglers.

 

If I go on a hike with other people, I will do all my preparations before the start and without communicating at all with someone as this distracts me and I might forget important things. When I'm ready for socializing, I'm eager to head off. Somehow this then would mean that I do not take part in what is the actual event in terms of Groundspeak and only in what comes thereafter and would be completely unsuitable as an event host and also would not be an even participant.

So, unless you really need that extra smiley, it sounds like you've made your decision! You win this badge instead for hitting the ground running for the non-Event Cache activities!

 

eager-beaver-73550502.jpg

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You know that has never been the "attraction" for an official Groundspeak-endorsed, Geocaching.com Event Cache in years and years, right?

 

Oh yes, it has in my area. Noone would have come for a briefing.

I experienced two full moon hiking events where everything was about the outdoor experience.

I see. So this is more about the Guideline clarification clarifying something practiced in a way that wasn't really in line with what an Event Cache is on Geocaching.com where you live.

 

(And I still think it's really neat how you latched onto the "briefing" thing instead of what an event really is...a gathering of people who geocache to celebrate geocaching in some way. A 30-minute briefing...LOL...that's my nightmare too! But, that's not at all what I was getting at for what an event could be when scheduled before, during, or after an "outdoor activity".)

 

Events then become meaningless.

I'll pray for your hurt soul. :signalviolin:

Edited by NeverSummer
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Remember you wrote above "the hike is not the event, the event is the briefing on the parking lot". That somehow hurts my soul and the idea in my mind that events should be something special- the briefing on a parking lot will never be able to compare in terms of attractivity to any form of real event offering for example the activities some people mentioned above as relevant for them for a good event. Of course geocachers still can go for a hike - for doing so they do not need Groundspeak at all.

 

When the briefing at a parking lot is the actual event, I will not remember what might have happened afterwards in connection with the event. The event then just would be a means to increase my attended logs by one if I chose to log attended. Nothing more. To me it feels like comparing jewels with broken dirty glass.

I'm on cezanne's side on this one.

 

As a semi-hypothetical example, let's say there's a nature preserve that is closed to the public, except when accompanied by a volunteer docent. They have hikes on the first and third Saturdays of every month, leaving the trailhead at 9am and returning at about 11am. One of the volunteer docents is also a geocacher, and gets permission to offer one of these hikes as a geocaching event on the second Saturday of the month.

 

There is no geocaching involved because there are no geocaches on the preserve. The hike will last about 2 hours, so the 30-minute minimum is met. It's an event organized by geocachers for geocachers, because it's on a different day from the public hikes. But based on our understanding of the current event guidelines, the geocaching docent cannot list the hike as a geocaching event, but must instead list a 30-minute gathering in the parking lot (either before or after the hike).

 

This seems broken to me. But maybe our understanding of the current event guidelines is wrong somehow.

 

Or maybe they could stop somewhere in the middle of the hike for 30 minutes. That 30-minute break could be the event, accessible only to those who go on the docent-led hike. But that still seems like a broken hack to me.

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If I wanted to go on a hike with 15 people it would take at least half an hour for everyone to stop chatting, put sunscreen and bugspray on, fuss around with water bottles and backpacks, and wait for stragglers.

 

If I go on a hike with other people, I will do all my preparations before the start and without communicating at all with someone as this distracts me and I might forget important things. When I'm ready for socializing, I'm eager to head off. Somehow this then would mean that I do not take part in what is the actual event in terms of Groundspeak and only in what comes thereafter and would be completely unsuitable as an event host and also would not be an even participant.

So, unless you really need that extra smiley, it sounds like you've made your decision! You win this badge instead for hitting the ground running for the non-Event Cache activities!

 

eager-beaver-73550502.jpg

:)

I log few events attended, usually only the ones my other 2/3rds is interested in (by dates mostly), or ones she attended with me.

May be similar to cezanne's view that many don't really seem to fit into what I feel are events.

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I hate to say it, but not all caches are for all people. Events included.

 

Of course not every event is for everyone, and for some events are not suitable at all.

The strange thing is however that during the last more than 12 years there have been events suitable for me. I have not changed. So something else has changed .........

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Noone would have come for a briefing.

I experienced two full moon hiking events where everything was about the outdoor experience.

I see. So this is more about the Guideline clarification clarifying something practiced in a way that wasn't really in line with what an Event Cache is on Geocaching.com where you live.

 

I talk about the events in two countries, Austria and Germany, not a small local area. One of the most memorable events I took part has been spontaneouly been dedicated to Erik http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?guid=9688b6d1-60bb-4090-8dd8-27e8e218dc98&wid=f8b29611-9021-45b3-b20c-e3c2c4ce1ad7&ds=2whom - we wanted to thank for his

enormous contribution to geocaching in Austria by serving as reviewer for the so important first years and also because the event organizer used the event to provide Erik's GC with a start (this is something Erik has asked him for). This event has been published by Erik himself. Later over the years 4 Austrian reviewers and an countable number of reviewers in Germany have been active.

Do you really think that all these reviewers wrongly applied the guidelines?

 

With respect to rating caches, it is of course possible and does happen that some local habits are created, but the type of events where a hike, a paddle tour, or whatever have been the event has happened all around the world, and have been published by some of the most profilic and most experienced reviewers.

 

I rather think that in recent years Groundspeak got involved into too many debates who is allowed to log an attended log and that this influenced a lot almost every change and reformulation in the event guidelines that has taken place over the last couple of years. Much more socializing took place in one of those old events I will never forget than at most modern events.

There have been no caches nearby - so people did not first go for a cache tour, then quickly visit an event and leave for caching again. People spend many hours at an event without any rule whatsoever.

Edited by cezanne
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I'll pray for your hurt soul. :signalviolin:

 

Can you pray for mine too? I sympathize with Cezanne's comment, even if it does seem hyperbolic. I share her feelings that an event can and should be more than just being in one location for 30 minutes, that the very activity that the event is centered about is what makes it an event. Yes, you can point out all the ways that these events can still be held if you have a will, but the fact is they are not the kind of events being encouraged by these new guidelines. It appears that they are being discouraged, and that is discouraging to some who enjoy them. Making folks jump through more hoops to hold a good event that they would like to invite other geocachers to join in on seems counterproductive. I also fully realize that you can have these kind of "events" without listing them on Geocaching.com, through your own social connections. But one of the great things about listing an event on GC.com is that it is more inclusive than just your social group/connections. Hosting an event on geocaching.com is an open invitation to the millions of geocachers out there to join with you in whatever it is you find to be fun. By making it more difficult for people to create these open invitations, what is gained? This goes back to some of the earlier discussions in this thread, what actually is the purpose of these guideline changes? What is the motivating factor for them? Is there some kind of glut of event listings that they are trying to cut back on to relieve pressure on Reviewers? Are they getting tons of flak from angry geocachers who failed to show up on time to someone's falshmob? What gives?

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Remember you wrote above "the hike is not the event, the event is the briefing on the parking lot". That somehow hurts my soul and the idea in my mind that events should be something special- the briefing on a parking lot will never be able to compare in terms of attractivity to any form of real event offering for example the activities some people mentioned above as relevant for them for a good event. Of course geocachers still can go for a hike - for doing so they do not need Groundspeak at all.

 

When the briefing at a parking lot is the actual event, I will not remember what might have happened afterwards in connection with the event. The event then just would be a means to increase my attended logs by one if I chose to log attended. Nothing more. To me it feels like comparing jewels with broken dirty glass.

I'm on cezanne's side on this one.

 

As a semi-hypothetical example, let's say there's a nature preserve that is closed to the public, except when accompanied by a volunteer docent. They have hikes on the first and third Saturdays of every month, leaving the trailhead at 9am and returning at about 11am. One of the volunteer docents is also a geocacher, and gets permission to offer one of these hikes as a geocaching event on the second Saturday of the month.

 

There is no geocaching involved because there are no geocaches on the preserve. The hike will last about 2 hours, so the 30-minute minimum is met. It's an event organized by geocachers for geocachers, because it's on a different day from the public hikes. But based on our understanding of the current event guidelines, the geocaching docent cannot list the hike as a geocaching event, but must instead list a 30-minute gathering in the parking lot (either before or after the hike).

 

This seems broken to me. But maybe our understanding of the current event guidelines is wrong somehow.

 

Or maybe they could stop somewhere in the middle of the hike for 30 minutes. That 30-minute break could be the event, accessible only to those who go on the docent-led hike. But that still seems like a broken hack to me.

And that's fine. Instead of hypotheticals, I would like to see this event get submitted.

 

My best guess, based on what I've seen for interactions with Reviewers, is that a cache like you've described could still get published. Additionally, there's nothing stopping this event from having a listed start time window of 30 minutes to allow folks to show up and not miss out if they don't get there "in time". If this docent is also a cacher, and also the organizer of the event, they'll likely already be there anyway to greet and orient people for 30 minutes on site, and then continue the "tour".

 

Imagine:

Join me, GeocacherDocent for a behind-the-scenes tour of the Evergreen Nature Preserve! I will be able to take folks on a tour of the grounds and other behind-the-scenes spots with the permission of the managers of the Nature Preserve. This is a great, once-a-year opportunity, and I hope you'll join us.

 

Please arrive no later than 10:00, as we'll start the tour at that time. We should be done around 14:00 with the tour, and you're welcome to stay and use the picnic tables, or join some folks who might go for another hike or cache outing.

 

I will be at the Nature Preserve parking lot (the Event Coordinates) starting at 09:30, and will wait for the last person to arrive until 10:00. If you arrive late, we won't be able to add you to the tour. Please email me if you have any questions! I can be reached at (phone number) if you get lost, or might be running just a tad late; I can wait a little if something comes up, but we need to start as close to 10:00am to be sure we don't interfere with other programs.

 

What? An opportunity to meet other cachers and get a behind-the-scenes tour

Where? At the above coordinates for the Evergreen Nature Preserve

Who? You! Your family! Your friends!

Why? This is a great chance to meet other cachers, and take me up on the opportunity to have a visit to the Preserve which is otherwise closed to the public.

When? Arrive between 09:30 and 10:00. We'll be "shutting the gate behind us" as close to 10:00am as possible.

 

See you there! Please be sure to post a "Will Attend" so I can account for how many visitors we will need to prepare for, and also to account for who RSVP'ed and might not have shown up yet by the departure time. Thanks!

 

Ta-da!

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Noone would have come for a briefing.

I experienced two full moon hiking events where everything was about the outdoor experience.

I see. So this is more about the Guideline clarification clarifying something practiced in a way that wasn't really in line with what an Event Cache is on Geocaching.com where you live.

 

I talk about the events in two countries, Austria and Germany, not a small local area. One of the most memorable events I took part has been spontaneouly been dedicated to Erik http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?guid=9688b6d1-60bb-4090-8dd8-27e8e218dc98&wid=f8b29611-9021-45b3-b20c-e3c2c4ce1ad7&ds=2whom - we wanted to thank for his

enormous contribution to geocaching in Austria by serving as reviewer for the so important first years and also because the event organizer used the event to provide Erik's GC with a start (this is something Erik has asked him for). This event has been published by Erik himself. Later over the years 4 Austrian reviewers and an countable number of reviewers in Germany have been active.

Do you really think that all these reviewers wrongly applied the guidelines?

 

With respect to rating caches, it is of course possible and does happen that some local habits are created, but the type of events where a hike, a paddle tour, or whatever have been the event has happened all around the world, and have been published by some of the most profilic and most experienced reviewers.

 

I rather think that in recent years Groundspeak got involved into too many debates who is allowed to log an attended log and that this influenced a lot almost every change and reformulation in the event guidelines that has taken place over the last couple of years. Much more socializing took place in one of those old events I will never forget than at most modern events.

There have been no caches nearby - so people did not first go for a cache tour, then quickly visit an event and leave for caching again. People spend many hours at an event without any rule whatsoever.

Objection: Hyperbole.

 

Things change, and I think you and I are aware of that fact having played this game for so long on this website. Clarifications are made, and they do not render past decisions as "improper" or even "misguided". They only mean that you can't do it that way anymore.

 

See:

  • Locationless
  • Webcams
  • Virtuals
  • Moving caches
  • Etc.

 

I'll pray for your hurt soul. :signalviolin:

 

Can you pray for mine too? I sympathize with Cezanne's comment, even if it does seem hyperbolic. I share her feelings that an event can and should be more than just being in one location for 30 minutes, that the very activity that the event is centered about is what makes it an event.

 

Sentimentality is tough. I can empathize with cezanne and you as well. I see what you're both saying, but I also see a light at the end of this tunnel: You can still make it happen. It just means you'll "have to get over it".

 

Saying that these types of caches are "discouraged" is not accurate. These ideas can still happen as they did, but you just have to adjust your language.

 

Meet me at the above coordinates. I'll be there from 08:00-08:30 to be sure we've gathered those who want to join in for the <insert activity here>. We'll depart promptly at 08:30, so be on time if you want to join in the <activity>. Come at 08:00 to have extra time to meet others and chat over some snacks, or feel free to show up just before we leave. See you there!

Ta-da!

Edited by NeverSummer
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Additionally, there's nothing stopping this event from having a listed start time window of 30 minutes to allow folks to show up and not miss out if they don't get there "in time". If this docent is also a cacher, and also the organizer of the event, they'll likely already be there anyway to greet and orient people for 30 minutes on site, and then continue the "tour".

 

But then exactly this 30 minutes end up as the event and which is an ugly hack as has been explained already by NiraD.

It's much nicer to think of the following activity as the actual event.

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Additionally, there's nothing stopping this event from having a listed start time window of 30 minutes to allow folks to show up and not miss out if they don't get there "in time". If this docent is also a cacher, and also the organizer of the event, they'll likely already be there anyway to greet and orient people for 30 minutes on site, and then continue the "tour".

 

But then exactly this 30 minutes end up as the event and which is an ugly hack as has been explained already by NiraD.

It's much nicer to think of the following activity as the actual event.

Objection: hyperbole.

 

A hack? Seriously? Did you not read my cache listing example? How is that listing NOT about the activity of visiting that Preserve on a special hike? That description met the guideline requirements, and it met the focus of getting people to participate in the "activity".

 

You, yes you can think of the event as anything you want, up to and including the activity outside of the minimum 30-minute window requirement. It will require a touch of cognitive dissonance, a smattering of getting over it, and a slight attitude adjustment, but it's all still there--cake and eating it too.

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Things change, and I think you and I are aware of that fact having played this game for so long on this website. Clarifications are made, and they do not render past decisions as "improper" or even "misguided". They only mean that you can't do it that way anymore.

 

A guideline change is something different than a clarification. Moreover, you made it appear in one of your previous posts that it has been a local habit that we had such events while this was a very appreciated event type worldwide for many years and almost my entire geocaching life.

 

By the way when looking up the event cache where Erik played some rule I encountered again briansnat's famous quote "When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot."

 

I always felt that a good event follows a similar strategy apart from offering the chance to sozialize. My expectations on an event are higher than the expectations on a normal geocache - they have been something special in my geocaching upcoming and not 0815 items available in abundance.

 

A parking lot does clearly not fit the intention behind briansnat's statement when translated to events and what comes afterwards is not seen as part of the event. A real dilemma also in this regard - of course many modern cachers will not case.

Edited by cezanne
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Things change, and I think you and I are aware of that fact having played this game for so long on this website. Clarifications are made, and they do not render past decisions as "improper" or even "misguided". They only mean that you can't do it that way anymore.

 

A guideline change is something different than a clarification. Moreover, you made it appear in one of your previous posts that it has been a local habit that we had such events while this was a very appreciated event type worldwide for many years and almost my entire geocaching life.

 

By the way when looking up the event cache where Erik played some rule I encountered again briansnat's famous quote "When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot."

 

I always felt that a good event follows a similar strategy apart from offering the chance to sozialize. My expectations on an event are higher than the expectations on a normal geocache - they have been something special in my geocaching upcoming and not 0815 items available in abundance.

 

A parking lot does clearly not fit the intention behind briansnat's statement when translated to events and what comes afterwards is not seen as part of the event. A real dilemma also in this regard - of course many modern cachers will not case.

Stop. Breathe. Stop again. Take a timeout, I think you're not able to clear the red mist from your eyes.

 

I mentioned "town" or whatever as an imperfect example. Yes, yes, I know that, historically, events where the hike was the event happened all over the planet. But things changed, and clarifications were made. Then, yes, we have additional guidelines to clarify what constitutes an event--the "spirit" of what an Event Cache is on Geocaching.com, if you will.

 

You. Can. Still. Have. All. The. Things. You can still have the hike, the "special" thing you want, whatever.

 

If it is the parking lot you hate, set the coordinates for somewhere else! Simple! If you, personally, can't be present fora window of 30 minutes at your own event as to meet the guidelines, then don't host one. Simple!

 

I still really, really struggle to see how 30 minutes is such a "long, painful time". Nobody straps you to a chair. Time flies when you're having fun. And all you need to do is edit your language from how you "used to do things" so that you can meet the current guidelines.

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Additionally, there's nothing stopping this event from having a listed start time window of 30 minutes to allow folks to show up and not miss out if they don't get there "in time". If this docent is also a cacher, and also the organizer of the event, they'll likely already be there anyway to greet and orient people for 30 minutes on site, and then continue the "tour".

 

But then exactly this 30 minutes end up as the event and which is an ugly hack as has been explained already by NiraD.

It's much nicer to think of the following activity as the actual event.

I agree, but if it's to be published by a Reviewer and listed as an event through Groundspeak , you have to suck it up a bit.

Everyone else may well have the same views as you, but that's how folks gotta play the system to get that fun hike in. :)

 

- This is true only if you want/need a smiley for attending.

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Sentimentality is tough. I can empathize with cezanne and you as well. I see what you're both saying, but I also see a light at the end of this tunnel: You can still make it happen. It just means you'll "have to get over it".

 

Saying that these types of caches are "discouraged" is not accurate. These ideas can still happen as they did, but you just have to adjust your language.

 

 

I applaud your enthusiasm and optimism about the new guidelines. You certainly seem willing and able to adjust to the changes proposed. You show by example how to make several hypothetical events into reality following the new guidelines. And I believe that most geocachers that want to hold events will figure out how to comply and get their events listed. In fact, people will probably continue to post events which meet the guidelines but are otherwise similar to events which do not (like figuring out how to post flash-mobs). Which gets back to what exactly is the point of the guideline changes? It is clear that by making a minimum time restriction Groundspeak is trying to discourage certain types of events. What this thread is demonstrating is that some people will be discouraged to hold different kinds of events that probably were not intended to be discouraged by these same guideline changes. Except that right now we are mostly just guessing as to what Groundpeak is really trying to accomplish with these changes. I wish we had some insight there.

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