Groundspeaks lays down some event time rules...

7.4k · February 23, 2015

I want to have an event where I am not required to be anywhere at a particular time, or speak to anybody else. I am disappointed that the guidelines don't permit me to do this.

2.8k · February 23, 2015

Could you post the event as

Start of event: 9:00am

End of event: 9:30am. After the event anyone interested in a hike to the summit and back can join the event host(s). We will head out promptly at 930am. Stragglers will need to catch up.

Would it be approved?

Yes, I'm sure (and I do not think that this could depend on the reviewer) but that way the hike is not part of the event and the event is just the phase for getting read, something I do not appreciate at all. It's ok if some only come to this phase and log an attended log (they also could come 1 minute to a 6 hours event and log attended), but I do not appreciate if the event organizer is forced to declare the 30 minutes period at a parking lot as the event.

Here's an idea:

Event: 11:00-12:00 at the top of Mount Geocache for a picnic lunch; Please bring your own lunch and beverage of choice, as there is not hut or water available at the peak. This is 1.5 hour hike each way.

For those that want to join the larger group for the hike up (and enjoy lively discussion on all things caching), we will depart the trailhead coordinates at 0930.

I've listed my paddle events that way. The actual event can be hiked to, but it attended by more kayakers than hikers. I list the launch and take-out locations, and when we meet at the launch, so we paddle together pretty much as a group to the event location.

6.8k · February 23, 2015

Here's an idea:

Event: 11:00-12:00 at the top of Mount Geocache for a picnic lunch; Please bring your own lunch and beverage of choice, as there is not hut or water available at the peak. This is 1.5 hour hike each way.

For those that want to join the larger group for the hike up (and enjoy lively discussion on all things caching), we will depart the trailhead coordinates at 0930.

I've listed my paddle events that way. The actual event can be hiked to, but it attended by more kayakers than hikers. I list the launch and take-out locations, and when we meet at the launch, so we paddle together pretty much as a group to the event location.

I agree that this is another workaround (that leads to a publishable event) and some hiking events are using it.

The disadvantage is that one is less flexible with regard to the timing and need to plan the break in advance.

It's typically much easier to estimate the driving time to the starting point than the walking time in particular in the season when the ground can be slippery and/or there is snow.

For me it would probably then mean either being late or having to take into account to be an hour early and I would not want to stay 2 hours at the summit and in particular not when it is windy.

Somehow it all boils down to having to work with workarounds to make something work which in my opinion is a proper and good set up for a geocache event. I regard going for a walk as closer to geocaching than eating pizza.

4.8k · February 23, 2015

Yes, I'm sure (and I do not think that this could depend on the reviewer) but that way the hike is not part of the event and the event is just the phase for getting read[sic], something I do not appreciate at all.

Interesting. Why so adamant on this point, and why the indignation? Particularly since the following portion of the Guidelines has been in place for as long as I can remember:

Any Event Cache (including Mega, Giga and CITO Events) can be logged online if the geocacher has attended the event.

There's never been a requirement to stay the entire length of time an Event is active, and quite frankly your resistance to stay a mere 30 minutes in a parking area to allow folks to legitimately log an Attend is quite in contrast to your seeming stance to require folks to to take part in what could end up being a 6 hour Event!

If I didn't know better, I'd almost want to say this is a bit of "control freakery" going on, but I know in the end you would be fair and even handed with those folks that didn't have the time or ability to take part in the hike.

2.8k · February 23, 2015

Here's an idea:

Event: 11:00-12:00 at the top of Mount Geocache for a picnic lunch; Please bring your own lunch and beverage of choice, as there is not hut or water available at the peak. This is 1.5 hour hike each way.

For those that want to join the larger group for the hike up (and enjoy lively discussion on all things caching), we will depart the trailhead coordinates at 0930.

I've listed my paddle events that way. The actual event can be hiked to, but it attended by more kayakers than hikers. I list the launch and take-out locations, and when we meet at the launch, so we paddle together pretty much as a group to the event location.

I agree that this is another workaround (that leads to a publishable event) and some hiking events are using it.

The disadvantage is that one is less flexible with regard to the timing and need to plan the break in advance.

It's typically much easier to estimate the driving time to the starting point than the walking time in particular in the season when the ground can be slippery and/or there is snow.

For me it would probably then mean either being late or having to take into account to be an hour early and I would not want to stay 2 hours at the summit and in particular not when it is windy.

Somehow it all boils down to having to work with workarounds to make something work which in my opinion is a proper and good set up for a geocache event. I regard going for a walk as closer to geocaching than eating pizza.

1) Don't make it a 2 hour event then. Stay longer if the weather is better and conducive to sitting around on a mountain top.

2) If you are the host, you are basically controlling the walk up to the event with the "I'll be leaving the trailhead at 0930" statement. I would hope you are familiar with the route you would be taking, so would have a pretty good idea of the time to get to the top. If people leave before you and get to the top within the event window (but you aren't there as the host), so what? They can claim it.

I just don't see the issue.

6.8k · February 23, 2015

Yes, I'm sure (and I do not think that this could depend on the reviewer) but that way the hike is not part of the event and the event is just the phase for getting read[sic], something I do not appreciate at all.

Interesting. Why so adamant on this point, and why the indignation? Particularly since the following portion of the Guidelines has been in place for as long as I can remember:

Any Event Cache (including Mega, Giga and CITO Events) can be logged online if the geocacher has attended the event.

Yes, I know and I do not have an issue with the above rule.

There is a huge difference for me however between logging an attended for an event and what an event means to me.

I neither would like to organize nor attend a event where the actual event is the waiting period for a hike. There are no rules for what I or someone else

needs to consider to be attractive for an event.

There's never been a requirement to stay the entire length of time an Event is active, and quite frankly your resistance to stay a mere 30 minutes in a parking area to allow folks to legitimately log an Attend is quite in contrast to your seeming stance to require folks to to take part in what could end up being a 6 hour Event!

Even if I stay 30 minutes in the parking area, it will not help in receiving the official event status for the hike and that's what I would like to have.

I do not care a bit about who is logging attended logs and what they are doing.

I did not write anything about requiring someone to take part in the 6 hours hike. In my example listing I even wrote "The hike is not compulsory".

I just wrote that I would prefer that a 6 hours hike (may it be with a 30 minute preparatory phase at the beginning) can be the actual event without any workarounds (I do not care if people come after the start of the hike to the parking lot and log the event as attended).

I just would prefer if someone who attends the hike only can have a good feeling when logging an attended and that the organizers of such events do not need to feel that they are underachievers as event organizers. Actually, I would feel rather lame even when writing a note for a parking lot event. It's the hike I would want to report on and that does not fit in my opinion to a parking lot event.

Nothing about logging rules needs to be changed and it is also not necessary to allow 5 minute events to make me reasonably happy.

Cezanne

4.8k · February 23, 2015

I just would prefer if someone who attends the hike only can have a good feeling when logging an attended and that the organizers of such events do not need to feel that they are underachievers as event organizers. Actually, I would feel rather lame even when writing a note for a parking lot event. It's the hike I would want to report on and that does not fit in my opinion to a parking lot event.

Aah! I see now. What you appear to want, and something that is not, nor has ever been addressed by Groundspeak or the Guidelines, is a sort of "Challenge" Event. Something that can go on your Profile and say, "...look at me!" (and I'm not trying to say that in a disrespectful way).

Unfortunately, such an arrangement tends to be exclusive in nature, rather than inclusive, and being inclusive to the community is the heart and soul of the Groundspeak Mission:

Since Groundspeak launched in 2000, we've been inspiring discovery, exploration and adventure. We do this by providing tools for the creation and sharing of story-worthy moments. Our goal is to make everyone an explorer and to put an adventure in every location.

To that end, I believe Groundspeak made this decision to try and address the need to bring things back to the original intent of their Mission.

I think you need to adjust your focus from "...how do I get another badge of honor on my Profile...", to "...how can I make this Event open and accessible to as many people that would like to Attend..."

6.8k · February 23, 2015

I just would prefer if someone who attends the hike only can have a good feeling when logging an attended and that the organizers of such events do not need to feel that they are underachievers as event organizers. Actually, I would feel rather lame even when writing a note for a parking lot event. It's the hike I would want to report on and that does not fit in my opinion to a parking lot event.

Aah! I see now. What you appear to want, and something that is not, nor has ever been addressed by Groundspeak or the Guidelines, is a sort of "Challenge" Event. Something that can go on your Profile and say, "...look at me!" (and I'm not trying to say that in a disrespectful way).

No. not a challenge event. Simply something that fits well to my memories and experiences of a nice time spent with fellow cachers - it's like being forced to report the experience of a wonderful scenic hike in the LPC cache at the parking lot. The LPC parking lot cache does not deserve such a log.

I feel degraded when everything what I regarded as nice was not be allowed to be called geocache event.

I'm certainly not someone who ever would put a banner onto my profile and my logs are important mainly for myself.

Unfortunately, such an arrangement tends to be exclusive in nature, rather than inclusive, and being inclusive to the community is the heart and soul of the Groundspeak Mission:

I do not have anything exclusive in mind - it would also be quite absurd as most cachers in my area are fitter and can accomplish more than I can.

To that end, I believe Groundspeak made this decision to try and address the need to bring things back to the original intent of their Mission.

I think you need to adjust your focus from "...how do I get another badge of honor on my Profile...", to "...how can I make this Event open and accessible to as many people that would like to Attend..."

They still can attend if they want by visiting the parking lot. I cannot recognize the value of such a visit beyond an attended log, however. So it appears to be about badges and not about nice experiences.

The hiking event do not replace or endager events where the participants sit together for four hours and chat, play games, eat and drink. It's just an additional offer for those who enjoy to socialize and be physically active at the same time. For example, on a gorgeous autumn day I never would want to sit around in a restaurant for a few hours instead of going for a walk/hike. 30 minutes waiting time at a parking lot may suffice for an event at geocaching.com, but they do not fulfill what I expect from an event. It would seem completely craze to me to drive one hour (one way) to meet some people on a parking lot for 30 minutes and to log an attended log. That's not an issue about openness. I cannot go for difficult hikes, but I would not want to instead only visit a parking lot. I rather than stay at home or go for an easy walk alone.

Edited February 23, 2015 by cezanne

6.8k · February 23, 2015

..how can I make this Event open and accessible to as many people that would like to Attend..."

I forgot to mention something else: I might be wrong, but it does not seem to me that Groundspeak cares about the above, but rather to make every event loggable as "attended" by as many people that would like to log an attended log.

For example, lots of events around here take place in a restaurant that offers a non smoker room but the smoke is not stopped by an open door and moves from room to room. When I'm forced to visit a restaurant I always end up with clothes that need to go immediately into the washing machine, and often I end up with headache etc. When I started to geocache, not even non smoking rooms were available and it was even even worse. Lots of events are set up such that specific people cannot attend in a meaningful and pleasant way. Of course they can go there for a minute and then leave and log attended.

9k · February 23, 2015

Oh man... So, I just read this entire thread - 11 pages. Boy am I glad I wasn't involved since the beginning, it'd probably be over 20 by now :laughing:

My thought:

I completely agree that having a time and minimum length for a Geocaching.com Event is entirely logical, feasible, reasonable and rational.

It is not a requirement that people be there, sedentary, for that entire length of time. Merely that the owner or someone delegated - having the additional responsibility of hosting an event (they are not simply an attendee) provide a period of time in which attendees can be considered attendees.

Whatever else happens with the Event's happenings are entirely up to the owner/host - whether the draw, purpose, or activity takes place during that time or outside that time does not matter.

The issues I see are

1) Events that are inherently shorter than 30 minutes now need to be 'stretched' to meet the 30 minute minimum. Resolution? Oh well, this is a Geocaching.com Event, so shorter events aren't what Groundspeak considers Geocaching.com Events. Use a workaround (see above - do the 'shorter' event before or after). Also, see **

2) Events that move cannot be published. This goes against the nature of that 'grace period' required for an attendee to be considered an attendee by visiting the one, single location. This has been a requirement for LONG before this minimum length clarification. Resolution? Use a workaround (do the 'moving' activities before or after). Also, see **

** There is a huge desire and/or demand that events consist of personal preferences and activity AND that they specifically reward a Find smiley, a WIGAS, as if somehow not including certain activities (whether <30 mins or moving) means they can no longer do it because it won't reward a smiley. What is your real reason for doing the event then? Do you want to provide a fun time for everyone? Or do you want them to be rewarded with a WIGAS? If you want the latter, then A] find a way around this simple adjustment (as suggested repeatedly), or B] don't list it on Geocaching.com.

Honestly, 30 minutes is just a minimal window for what constitutes someone for time during which who comes to be considered an attendee of the Event listing as posted on Geocaching.com. That's it. It's not a statement of what constitutes "socializing", or "being active", or "geocaching". Those are inferred by the likes of us, the community, based on how 'creative' we want to be in designing an event, or how much work we want to put into designing and managing an event, or how much responsibility we want to take on for hosting an event -- as listed on Geocaching.com.

So whilst I do see the link, I mainly see these as 2 separate issues:

1. As events need a start/end time, a minimum length is needed to avoid events which are so short to be nonsensical.

2. Why can't "moving events" be allowed?

2. I think generally because the requirement to have a minimal period of time at a location to constitute an event implies that a "moving event" would actually become multiple events. Sort of like how a Traditional cache is required to be a physical container posted at the listed coordinates, and a multi-cache may contain multiple waypoints before locating the final physical container. A "moving event" would be more like a multi-stage event, rather than a typical Geocaching.com Event listing.

So perhaps a suggestion might be to provide a new Event type - a multi-waypoint event listing, with each waypoint containing a time. Yet, as with multi-caches, only the final container needs to be signed to log it Found online, a multi-stage event would only require people be at the final coordinates (though the coordinates may be hidden, implying people need to visit each waypoint), in order to log it found.

ie, construct a multi-waypoint Event in pricesely the same manner as a Multi-cache, having the same Found It(Attended) requirements. Someone might get the multi final coordinates and skip the stages; likewise, someone might gain the information for the final event location and skip all the waypoints. Who knows.

Note: This is not an official request for a Multi-stage Event cache type! Just considering why "moving events" may be considered vastly different than "traditional" Events by comparison to Traditional and Multi caches.

I want to have an event where I am not required to be anywhere at a particular time, or speak to anybody else. I am disappointed that the guidelines don't permit me to do this.

:laughing: Can I log it found too? I think the guidelines would allow me to do that, if your event were permitted to be published.

There is a huge difference for me however between logging an attended for an event and what an event means to me.

I neither would like to organize nor attend a event where the actual event is the waiting period for a hike. There are no rules for what I or someone else needs to consider to be attractive for an event.

There is a rule: It must have a window of time during which someone is present in order to confirm that a visitor can be classified as an attendee. That's it. That's the minimal requirement for it to be "attractive" as a [Geocaching.com listed] Event.

Even if it's not attractive to you.

So find a way to make it attractive to you, within the minimal requirements of a Geocaching.com Event listing.

Because HOOO BOY are there ways to make crazy awesome and amazing events - sedentary AND activity(stationary)-filled or activity(movement)-promoting [which merely require someone to be present for 30 minutes at the posted coordinates].

Even if I stay 30 minutes in the parking area, it will not help in receiving the official event status for the hike and that's what I would like to have.

Yes, it would. If you leave for the hike after the 30 minutes is up.

You said earlier that you would show up to an event at the posted time and go - you can still do that. As an attendee, you don't have to be there 30 minutes before the hike. YOU can show up at 8:58 and leave for the hike at 9:00 if you want. The host, or a designated individual, just needs to be around for a half hour.

Yep, that also means someone doesn't have to do the hike in order to attend the event. But so what? How does that affect your enjoyment of the hike? Or are you trying to force people to do something in order to receive the Event WIGAS smiley? What is it you value more? The smiley? Or the hike?

As an owner, with added responsibility inherent with owning a listing on Geocaching.com, you merely need to ensure that someone is around for that 30-minute minimum window. That's it.

Along with others, I absolutely fail to see how the minimum event duration now at 30 minutes is a Bad Thing, other than the fact that short events must be expanded in that at the very least, one person is there for 30 minutes, or the primary attraction for the event is now bumped outside the bounds of the 30 minute window, for whatever reason.

The non-allowance of moving events is not a new thing.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to chime in... I think most everything I've said has already been expressed in various ways in the thread already.

NeverSummer - *fistbump* ;P

6.8k · February 23, 2015

2) Events that move cannot be published. This goes against the nature of that 'grace period' required for an attendee to be considered an attendee by visiting the one, single location.

No, it does not. An event that first takes place for 45 minutes at location A and then moves to location B offers more options than one that takes place for 30 minutes at A. The grace period is even longer.

This has been a requirement for LONG before this minimum length clarification. Resolution? Use a workaround (do the 'moving' activities before or after). Also, see **

The enforcement of end times for events is relatively new (from last year).

** There is a huge desire and/or demand that events consist of personal preferences and activity AND that they specifically reward a Find smiley, a WIGAS, as if somehow not including certain activities (whether <30 mins or moving) means they can no longer do it because it won't reward a smiley.

I cannot follow. For me it is not about rewards. If no events that I enjoy can happen on gc.com (and only after or before events or not at all in connection with gc.com) then this makes me sad, but this is related to the Groundspeak's definition of what makes a geocaching event and not to smileys.

What is your real reason for doing the event then? Do you want to provide a fun time for everyone? Or do you want them to be rewarded with a WIGAS? If you want the latter, then A] find a way around this simple adjustment (as suggested repeatedly), or B] don't list it on Geocaching.com.

Neither nor. The idea is to provide fun to the target audience while of course everyone is free at attend. In my experience one cannot provide fun for everyone.

It's a bit like a discussion that recently came up somewhere in Austria where a cat lover was hosting an event and asked for no dogs and mentioned that people with cat allergies should take the presence of many cats into account. Someone then complained about this scenario and claimed that it excludes some cachers. Of course it does, but it is better to have a diversity of events, than all 0815 events who are in principle for everyone but so many options are missed out.

Honestly, 30 minutes is just a minimal window for what constitutes someone for time during which who comes to be considered an attendee of the Event listing as posted on Geocaching.com. That's it. It's not a statement of what constitutes "socializing", or "being active", or "geocaching". Those are inferred by the likes of us, the community, based on how 'creative' we want to be in designing an event, or how much work we want to put into designing and managing an event, or how much responsibility we want to take on for hosting an event -- as listed on Geocaching.com.

I do not agree. The rules Groundspeak uses for publishing events do define what an event cache means on gc.com and apparently moving activities are something that needs to happen outside of events which I sad. I mean Groundspeak is not needed at all for activities outside of events. It's just a real pity that what fits very well to geocaching and allows for socializing in the same way as other typical event activities has no place in Groundspeak's concept of an event cache. Of course they can make the rules - it's still very sad and depressing which way they chose to go for events.

Note: This is not an official request for a Multi-stage Event cache type! Just considering why "moving events" may be considered vastly different than "traditional" Events by comparison to Traditional and Multi caches.

For roughly 10 years such events worked well withourt having separate types.

Because HOOO BOY are there ways to make crazy awesome and amazing events - sedentary AND activity(stationary)-filled or activity(movement)-promoting [which merely require someone to be present for 30 minutes at the posted coordinates].

That's only true if you are right that one shift the end of the event to the end of the activities. I do not think however that such an event

will be published and a lot of I write depends on this hypothesis. So far we have not a single evidence that a 30 minutes stay at the posted coordinates would suffice if this does not declare the end of the event.

You said earlier that you would show up to an event at the posted time and go - you can still do that. As an attendee, you don't have to be there 30 minutes before the hike. YOU can show up at 8:58 and leave for the hike at 9:00 if you want.

Yes, I can, but it is then the hike for which I leave and the hike is not part of the actual event and that's what I have troubles with.

Yep, that also means someone doesn't have to do the hike in order to attend the event. But so what? How does that affect your enjoyment of the hike? Or are you trying to force people to do something in order to receive the Event WIGAS smiley? What is it you value more? The smiley? Or the hike?

I already explained numerous times that I do not care about who logs an attended and what they did.

I wish that the hike is an official part of the event and I do not care whether others take part in the hike or not.

I have mentioned several times that my personal preference would be to abolish counting attended logs for events as finds. I'm not visiting events to increase my find count.

Events however have a special meaning to me and it makes me very sad if hiking events end up to be waiting periods and the hike takes place outside of the event (before, after or in between two moving parts).

For you it is apparently just about the pragmatic point of view whether one can announce a hike/paddle tour etc with geocachers via an event listing (I agree that this is still possible), while for me it is about how an event is defined by Groundspeak and whether certain types of activities and efforts are appreciated by Groundspeak or are degraded as not being good enough for what events are about (socializing). I would be extremely annoyed if organizers of hiking events that start off for a hike of several hours after a 30 minutes meeting period are referred to as under-achievers by Groundspeak while organizers of a 5 hours event in a smoky restaurant get the full praise.

Edited February 23, 2015 by cezanne

3.1k · February 23, 2015

From the discussions I've had with Reviewers, it would seem that being this explicit in your description of an Event Cache would not be publishable.

Now, if you simply say all of that without "I'll be there just before 2...", then you're good to go.

No kidding? Not telling the truth about when I'll be there makes it better?

Especially if the owner doesn't stir any pots by thinking of or actually deleting logs if someone logs an "Attended" if they show before the owner gets there (but still within the listed 30-minute window), or chooses not to take part in the hike.

I'm sorry, I thought that was implicit, although I agree I should have specified it. Yes, of course anyone that shows up during the half hour would be considered in attendance. And we aren't discussing the existing regulation that forbids requiring participation, so I was assuming going on the hike wouldn't be required, particularly since the hike itself takes place after the end of the event.

I assume when you say cezanne's version would be approved, you are similarly imagining that anyone showing up at the posted coordinates during the 4 and a half hours everyone else is away on the hike must be allowed to log attended, too.

It occurs to me that what really concerns me is that the minimum time limit is specified in a way that leaves the reviewer's twisting in the wind. The minimum time is a requirement for publication that reviewers must enforce, but guidelines don't actually provide any objective measure that a reviewer can present to back up a rejection. But I guess that's OK if the reviewers universally apply the don't ask, don't tell policy you're suggesting.

Wow, when you put it that way... That escalated quickly.

For that first quote, that's not at all what I was saying. I was saying that, if you say you'll only be there a moment before the "activity" begins, and make it clear that you will not be present for the duration of the 30-minute window, I'll bet the Reviewer would take issue with the listing. I'm saying that the owner should likely, at minimum, make appearances absolutely clear that they are meeting the guidelines.

What I'm also saying is that the owner of the listing owns the Event Cache and controls what happens. So long as the listing submission meets the guidelines, there is very little anyone can do about the owner showing up late, people logging "Attended" if they only drop in for 30 seconds, etc. It isn't up to the Reviewer to make sure people show up on time--that's up to the owner of the listing.

So, yeah, people can lie straight through their teeth if they want to, so long as their listing meets the guidelines. Would that be "ethical"? That's up to each person to decide--but not the Reviewer. If enough people notice a problem with this new guideline and find a massive abuse of the listings to straight up lie and throw the guidelines in the faces of people who are trying to attend...well, then Groundspeak really has something to deal with.

3.1k · February 23, 2015

Cezanne:

May I present you my most recent Event Cache listing: Pi Day, Homer!

It is a "boring, sit on your rear at a bakery" event to you. But what I see is that I'm also planning a birding and caching hike/tour after the event.

Now, you should ask me, "NeverSummer (Joel), what part of the event you're planning will be most memorable and meaningful to you?" I'll answer thusly: "Cezanne, I'm most looking forward to everyone who comes to the event going on the tour with me afterward. That's where I'll make more memories, and the duration is open-ended. This means that people can start out with me, and leave at will. It also means that, without a time limit on the post-Event Cache tour, I'll have more time to build on the relationships I started building over pre-tour coffee and cinnamon rolls."

Let me just wrap this up for you:

It's not that big of a deal. Let it go.

thebruce0: <fistbump> back atcha.

6.8k · February 23, 2015

It is a "boring, sit on your rear at a bakery" event to you. But what I see is that I'm also planning a birding and caching hike/tour after the event.

Now, you should ask me, "NeverSummer (Joel), what part of the event you're planning will be most memorable and meaningful to you?" I'll answer thusly: "Cezanne, I'm most looking forward to everyone who comes to the event going on the tour with me afterward. That's where I'll make more memories, and the duration is open-ended.

Your set up looks nice, but don't you feel sorry that the most memorable part is seen as outside of the actual event?

So while it will be a nice time for sure for those who take part, it is not an geocaching event while sitting at the bakery is.

No workaround whatsoever can make the feeling of sadness how geocaching devolves go away.

I'd prefer if one could publish the very same event when replacing the end: 9:56 line with e.g. end: 16:00 (or later). They except something like 16:00 or later for static events.

The difference would be that birding and other activities are officially recognized as meaninful and welcome activities at events and are not degraded to something which needs to happen outside of geocache events.

Edited February 23, 2015 by cezanne

2.6k · February 23, 2015

The event in Homer sounds great.

Yeah, it would be nice if the birding/etc could be part of the official event, but does it really matter? People who do the "after event" stuff will be sure to enjoy it just as much, and will also write about it in their logs.

3.1k · February 23, 2015

It is a "boring, sit on your rear at a bakery" event to you. But what I see is that I'm also planning a birding and caching hike/tour after the event.

Now, you should ask me, "NeverSummer (Joel), what part of the event you're planning will be most memorable and meaningful to you?" I'll answer thusly: "Cezanne, I'm most looking forward to everyone who comes to the event going on the tour with me afterward. That's where I'll make more memories, and the duration is open-ended.

Your set up looks nice, but don't you feel sorry that the most memorable part is seen as outside of the actual event?

So while it will be a nice time for sure for those who take part, it is not an geocaching event while sitting at the bakery is.

No workaround whatsoever can make the feeling of sadness how geocaching devolves go away.

I'd prefer if one could publish the very same event when replacing the end: 9:56 line with e.g. end: 16:00 (or later). They except something like 16:00 or later for static events.

The difference would be that birding and other activities are officially recognized as meaninful and welcome activities at events and are not degraded to something which needs to happen outside of geocache events.

Groundspeak can't take away my happiness, cezanne. I control me. I don't feel sorry one bit that "the most memorable part" is outside the "actual" event. (Remember, there are events, and EVENT CACHES.) The event is the whole of the time I'll spend with others. They'll likely feel the same way. The Event Cache is the bakery portion, which serves as a great landing pad for people to arrive at their leisure and decide if they are going to take part in the hike/tour afterward.

If someone comes late and joins for the birding trip, then I have no problem with them getting a smiley on Geocaching.com so that they can record their experience online. See, that's what I'm saying: Your hike event ideal (as an example) is still the event, and everyone can still believe in the wonderment of the event (activity), while Groundspeak guidelines are met for the Event Cache.

I could add a different ending time to account for the "tour" after the bakery quite easily. But I really don't know how long we'd be out hiking and birding, so I don't want to bother with adding a "longer" time period for the overall event that is concurrent with the Event Cache. Likely some people will hang on longer than others, and that time will still be very meaningful and build on the time I spent starting up conversations and hopefully meeting new people at the bakery.

Let it go. You're letting someone else determine your happiness. You can still do all the things, have all the activities, and stoke all the enjoyment you can find in this game.

9k · February 23, 2015

♫ Let it goooooooooooooooooooo, let it goooooooooooooooooooo! ♫

Sorry... but not really...

:sunsure:

6.8k · February 23, 2015

Groundspeak can't take away my happiness, cezanne. I control me.

Not the happiness about going for a birding trip/hike (I never said that), but they can make at least me sad by their rules what they accept as event cache (when writing event I always has a Groundspeak event in mind).

[

6.1k · February 23, 2015

♫ Let it goooooooooooooooooooo, let it goooooooooooooooooooo! ♫

Sorry... but not really...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

3.1k · February 23, 2015

♫ Let it goooooooooooooooooooo, let it goooooooooooooooooooo! ♫

Sorry... but not really...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The kids all say "#Sorrynotsorry" :laughing:

Edited February 23, 2015 by NeverSummer

7.3k · February 23, 2015

It is a "boring, sit on your rear at a bakery" event to you. But what I see is that I'm also planning a birding and caching hike/tour after the event.

Now, you should ask me, "NeverSummer (Joel), what part of the event you're planning will be most memorable and meaningful to you?" I'll answer thusly: "Cezanne, I'm most looking forward to everyone who comes to the event going on the tour with me afterward. That's where I'll make more memories, and the duration is open-ended.

Your set up looks nice, but don't you feel sorry that the most memorable part is seen as outside of the actual event?

So while it will be a nice time for sure for those who take part, it is not an geocaching event while sitting at the bakery is.

No workaround whatsoever can make the feeling of sadness how geocaching devolves go away.

I'd prefer if one could publish the very same event when replacing the end: 9:56 line with e.g. end: 16:00 (or later). They except something like 16:00 or later for static events.

The difference would be that birding and other activities are officially recognized as meaninful and welcome activities at events and are not degraded to something which needs to happen outside of geocache events.

Groundspeak can't take away my happiness, cezanne. I control me. I don't feel sorry one bit that "the most memorable part" is outside the "actual" event. (Remember, there are events, and EVENT CACHES.) The event is the whole of the time I'll spend with others. They'll likely feel the same way. The Event Cache is the bakery portion, which serves as a great landing pad for people to arrive at their leisure and decide if they are going to take part in the hike/tour afterward.

If someone comes late and joins for the birding trip, then I have no problem with them getting a smiley on Geocaching.com so that they can record their experience online. See, that's what I'm saying: Your hike event ideal (as an example) is still the event, and everyone can still believe in the wonderment of the event (activity), while Groundspeak guidelines are met for the Event Cache.

I could add a different ending time to account for the "tour" after the bakery quite easily. But I really don't know how long we'd be out hiking and birding, so I don't want to bother with adding a "longer" time period for the overall event that is concurrent with the Event Cache. Likely some people will hang on longer than others, and that time will still be very meaningful and build on the time I spent starting up conversations and hopefully meeting new people at the bakery.

Let it go. You're letting someone else determine your happiness. You can still do all the things, have all the activities, and stoke all the enjoyment you can find in this game.

Thanks, I was gearing up to say the same thing.

You're getting to hung up on what Groundspeak's "reality" is, cezanne. If there is an event that takes place in a parking lot with a hike afterwards, the reality for the people who go on the hike is that the whole thing (parking lot and hike) is the event. That's what you need to focus on to be happy, not Groundspeak. I don't know why what they think is so important to you. Just go on the hike, have fun, and then talk about the hike in your event log!

I've mentioned many times before that we have white water rafting events with a bbq in between/after. Our last event was a Bald Eagle watching float last winter. The "event" was in the parking lot, meeting up to go on the rafting trip. This in no way took away from the fun that everyone had (the group included a lackey and two reviewers). The logs all report about the rafting, and include lots of pictures.

Here's a picture at the parking lot (my husband's standing in the boat, giving safety instructions):

Here's a picture on the river:

Here's a bonus picture of a Bald Eagle:

6.8k · February 23, 2015

You're getting to hung up on what Groundspeak's "reality" is, cezanne.

Yes, of course as my point is that I do not understand how one can argue that the way the current guidelines define an event cache are a consequence of the fact that the principal role of geocaching events is socializing (as opposed to picking up trash per Keystone's statement).

If there is an event that takes place in a parking lot with a hike afterwards, the reality for the people who go on the hike is that the whole thing (parking lot and hike) is the event.

I have no doubt in believing that, but I think it is lame that Groundspeak only sees a part of the event (parking lot) as a geocache event.

I never claimed that one cannot have fun at a hike, raft, bicycle tour etc if it takes place outside of an geocaching event. For having fun one does not need to use gc.com at all.

I still cannot understand why such activities cannot be part of an geocaching event and

why eating, playing card games while sitting around etc are seen as activities that are seen ok for a geocaching event even though they fit much less to the adventure type description of geocaching on Groundspeak's site.

I've mentioned many times before that we have white water rafting events with a bbq in between/after.

In the case of a bbq in between/after the situation is a bit different as even without the white water rafting this might be a nice, worthy event for many cachers in comparisons with some purely sedentary events. Meeting at a parking lot for 30 minutes (enforced 30 minutes) while people prepare for a walk for which no instructions are needed, would never be set up as event in its own right and often the starting points have also nothing to offer - they are just starting points. Putting on shoes and packing up a knapsack is also certainly less communicative in my experience than a bbq.

I would not attend a white water rafting event because it would terrify me to death, but I could imagine to attend a pure bbq event and I would not feel ashamed when logging it (not even when the bbq is relatively short). I would feel extremely ashamed to log an event cache where the actual event allowed by Groundspeak consists of a waiting period at an ugly parking lot.

While of course I (and anyone else) can still have fun to join a hike outside of a geocache hike, it leaves me nevertheless with a big disappointment how Groundspeak handles the matter and this disappointment is increased by the fact that I do not understand why it makes sense to be so restrictive when it comes to geocaching events.

Edited February 23, 2015 by cezanne

7.3k · February 23, 2015

You're getting to hung up on what Groundspeak's "reality" is, cezanne.

Yes, of course as my point is that I do not understand how one can argue that the way the current guidelines define an event cache are a consequence of the fact that the principal role of geocaching events is socializing (as opposed to picking up trash per Keystone's statement).

If there is an event that takes place in a parking lot with a hike afterwards, the reality for the people who go on the hike is that the whole thing (parking lot and hike) is the event.

I have no doubt in believing that, but I think it is lame that Groundspeak only sees a part of the event (parking lot) as a geocache event.

I never claimed that one cannot have fun at a hike, raft, bicycle tour etc if it takes place outside of an geocaching event. For having fun one does not need to use gc.com at all.

I still cannot understand why such activities cannot be part of an geocaching event and

why eating, playing card games while sitting around etc are seen as activities that are seen ok for a geocaching event even though they fit much less to the adventure type description of geocaching on Groundspeak's site.

I've mentioned many times before that we have white water rafting events with a bbq in between/after.

In the case of a bbq in between/after the situation is a bit different as even without the white water rafting this might be a nice, worthy event for many cachers in comparisons with some purely sedentary events. Meeting at a parking lot for 30 minutes (enforced 30 minutes) while people prepare for a walk for which no instructions are needed, would never be set up as event in its own right and often the starting points have also nothing to offer - they are just starting points. Putting on shoes and packing up a knapsack is also certainly less communicative in my experience than a bbq.

I would not attend a white water rafting event because it would terrify me to death, but I could imagine to attend a pure bbq event and I would not feel ashamed when logging it (not even when the bbq is relatively short). I would feel extremely ashamed to log an event cache where the actual event allowed by Groundspeak consists of a waiting period at an ugly parking lot.

While of course I (and anyone else) can still have fun to join a hike outside of a geocache hike, it leaves me nevertheless with a big disappointment how Groundspeak handles the matter and this disappointment is increased by the fact that I do not understand why it makes sense to be so restrictive when it comes to geocaching events.

It seems, then that the main problem is just a disagreement with Groundspeak about the nature of events. Well, after 6 pages, we've come to that conclusion - that in your (inclusive your) own mind, you can make work arounds to try and enjoy an event, even if that means coming up with ways to work around the guidelines. And then enjoy the heck out of them. I don't think that arguing in the forums is going to change Groundspeak's minds, unless they finally implement the other event type that they were testing out a while ago.

To clarify again - that event I posted about with the pictures was an event in the parking lot while we were getting ready to raft. Although I think that everyone who attended also went rafting. Also, the Bald Eagle float is a really easy one that we take little children on, because it's not high white water.

7.3k · February 23, 2015

Another thing that I want to point out to understand regional issues better - here in the US, almost all public buildings have outlawed smoking inside. I noticed that a lot of your problems with indoor events is due to smoking. I agree, I have a mild allergic reaction to smoke, so I've been very happy since the new laws have been put in place.

Perhaps you should move to the NW of the US. Lots of nice hiking, and no indoor smoking.

6.8k · February 23, 2015

Another thing that I want to point out to understand regional issues better - here in the US, almost all public buildings have outlawed smoking inside. I noticed that a lot of your problems with indoor events is due to smoking. I agree, I have a mild allergic reaction to smoke, so I've been very happy since the new laws have been put in place.

That's a long story, but I would not need to move to the US - almost every place in Europe would be better from that point of view than my home country. They are debating for years - the situation is better than some decades ago but still not acceptable in my opinion. First, the law leaves so much exceptions and second, so many people do not care about the law.

Another issue that comes up and is not related to smoking: In my home region there is hardly a place where one could organize a bbq event as this is almost everywhere forbidden.

Still another one is that most indoor events are quite crowded and one typically ends up with getting to talk only to the very few people who by chance sit next to oneself.

I personally prefer the independence of outdoor events where one is free to bring one's own food and is not almost forced to order food and beverages (or sometimes even everyone has to pay a fixed share of the bill regardless of what one has consumed).

Edited February 23, 2015 by cezanne

7.5k · February 23, 2015

As an owner, with added responsibility inherent with owning a listing on Geocaching.com, you merely need to ensure that someone is around for that 30-minute minimum window. That's it.

Oh, excellent! Just what I wanted to know! Now, can you point me to where in guidelines it says this is a host's responsibility? If I'd been able to find that in black and white, I'm not sure I would have participated in this thread at all.

For that first quote, that's not at all what I was saying. I was saying that, if you say you'll only be there a moment before the "activity" begins, and make it clear that you will not be present for the duration of the 30-minute window, I'll bet the Reviewer would take issue with the listing. I'm saying that the owner should likely, at minimum, make appearances absolutely clear that they are meeting the guidelines.

I'm trying to get clarification about what the guidelines actually mean, so this response seems circular. They don't, as far as I've been able to see, say anything whatsoever about what the host has to do at the time of the event, so the whole point of my scenario is to try to get clarification what would appear to be meeting the guidelines and what would be considered thumbing one's nose at the guideline.

So, yeah, people can lie straight through their teeth if they want to, so long as their listing meets the guidelines.

Well, yes, I suppose technically you'd have to call it lying, but it's a lie required by the hypothetical "don't ask/don't tell" guidelines I interpret your comments as postulating. What you seem to be saying is that the guidelines allow me to do X as long as I don't say I'm going to do X.

Would that be "ethical"? That's up to each person to decide--but not the Reviewer. If enough people notice a problem with this new guideline and find a massive abuse of the listings to straight up lie and throw the guidelines in the faces of people who are trying to attend...well, then Groundspeak really has something to deal with.

I guess that's my point: if there's some action here that GS is going to consider abuse and come down hard on, then I think they should spell out what that something is ahead of time.

To clarify again - that event I posted about with the pictures was an event in the parking lot while we were getting ready to raft. Although I think that everyone who attended also went rafting.

Sounds great. And it's imagining events like this which make me understand cezanne's point: so if this worked out so well, why the heck can't it be listed as a rafting event? To put it in the terms of my conversation with NeverSummer, why do the guidelines make you lie and say it's just a half hour event in a parking lot when everyone can clearly see it's a rafting event that actually runs much longer?

6.8k · February 23, 2015

It seems, then that the main problem is just a disagreement with Groundspeak about the nature of events.

From my point of view, yes, certainly and I also understood some others in this way right from the beginning. Disagreement and the inability to understand the argument why events which conform to the guidelines are more communicative and better suitable for socializing. I'd say the second aspect even dominated the first one. I do have an issue with explanations that lack logic.

There are certainly aspects in life which cannot be approached with an analytical and rational approach, but defining what a geocache event means does not belong

to those aspects in my opinion.

Well, after 6 pages, we've come to that conclusion - that in your (inclusive your) own mind, you can make work arounds to try and enjoy an event, even if that means coming up with ways to work around the guidelines. And then enjoy the heck out of them. I don't think that arguing in the forums is going to change Groundspeak's minds, unless they finally implement the other event type that they were testing out a while ago.

I agree - I do not expect that they will change their mind, either (all my experiences with Groundspeak taught me not to expect anything from them in such respects). However I would be pleased if they come up with another argument that is sound and at least explains why the rules are like they are.

Socializing and the time needed for socializing is a very weak argument in this context and it does not become any stronger by the fact that there are workarounds.

None of us needs Groundspeak and event caches at all to be able to enjoy certain activities.

Also, the Bald Eagle float is a really easy one that we take little children on, because it's not high white water.

Most children also do not get panic attacks when having to walk down a steep slippery slope or riding a bicycle in a meadow. They typically enjoy it.

2.8k · February 23, 2015

You DO realize how short 30 minutes is, right?

Obviously you have never had to cuddle with your wife.

Disclaimer:

Nothing personal, The you was not you but a general you implying I've had to cuddle with my wife for 30 minutes and it was a long, long time.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Roman!

7.3k · February 23, 2015

To clarify again - that event I posted about with the pictures was an event in the parking lot while we were getting ready to raft. Although I think that everyone who attended also went rafting.

Sounds great. And it's imagining events like this which make me understand cezanne's point: so if this worked out so well, why the heck can't it be listed as a rafting event? To put it in the terms of my conversation with NeverSummer, why do the guidelines make you lie and say it's just a half hour event in a parking lot when everyone can clearly see it's a rafting event that actually runs much longer?

Well, we didn't lie in the event description. It clearly talks about the rafting.

7.3k · February 23, 2015

Also, the Bald Eagle float is a really easy one that we take little children on, because it's not high white water.

Most children also do not get panic attacks when having to walk down a steep slippery slope or riding a bicycle in a meadow. They typically enjoy it.

This is true. Well, phobias happen, and they're no fun.

I recently discovered that I have a phobia of clowns. I've never liked them, think they're disturbing, but didn't realize how bad it was until I had to go to an event (not caching) where almost everyone dressed up as one. WHY?!? I had to keep fighting down a panic attack, look down at the ground. I almost left, but everyone at my table was nice and arranged my seating so I was looking into the corner of the room and could pretend that it wasn't filled with terrible monsters.

Oddly enough, I don't mind going to Cirque du Soleil. It's more artsy, and embraces the creepiness factor.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Ambrosia

6.8k · February 23, 2015

To clarify again - that event I posted about with the pictures was an event in the parking lot while we were getting ready to raft. Although I think that everyone who attended also went rafting.

Sounds great. And it's imagining events like this which make me understand cezanne's point: so if this worked out so well, why the heck can't it be listed as a rafting event? To put it in the terms of my conversation with NeverSummer, why do the guidelines make you lie and say it's just a half hour event in a parking lot when everyone can clearly see it's a rafting event that actually runs much longer?

Well, we didn't lie in the event description. It clearly talks about the rafting.

I guess maybe lie was not the proper term. You of course did not lie, but Groundspeak forces the organizers of such event caches to use a workaround which boils down that the activity for which the event takes place is not part of the event. I still do not even know whether Groundspeak is happy with such event caches or only tolerates them.

9k · February 23, 2015

Once again.

An event takes place at one location, one waypoint, and must have a period of time during which a person can become an Attendee.

That's it.

It's not just 'socializing' to the exclusion of all other reasons, cezanne. That is the primary purpose.

Groundspeak cannot control the content of an event, they can only approve the listing on the basis that the owner is honest and sincere about its content, and is not misrepresenting what the event will be about. Because of that, they cannot enforce that there is a social activity during the event, nor that no activity will take place before or after. They can only approve what the owner states the plan will be.

For that reason, the intent for a geocaching event is to be about geocaching, not the activity of geocaching itself.

It is one, single location, and for a period of time.

Sure, the rules may have changed over the years - as they have for many aspects of geocaching. For whatever reason. For some people, the reasons are obvious, for others the reasons are irrelevant - they've told you why. But in your area, it seems they are irrelevant - or rather that they are now more restrictive because of issues in other places of the world that didn't affect you. And you know what? It's too bad. Geocaching.com is a worldwide site, and they have to do their best to provide a structure that is sufficient (to their judgement) for providing what they determine to be an appropriate geocaching experience and community. That means they may or may not take advice or comments, they may or may not weigh complaints and suggestions. It's entirely up to them. We have the right to comment and complain, but we must also realize that geocaching.com is their listing service - they set the rules. And if we don't like it, we either let it go, or leave. That's just the nature of the beast. That's the way it's been since the website began, and that's the way it'll be as long as the website exists.

They want Geocaching.com listed official Events to have a specific structure and definition. IF they think your opinion of what an event should be is worthwhile to their minds, they may well take it into consideration. But at this point, there's so much complaining about the littlest thing, from a vocal group of people in the forums, that it's unlikely they'll put too much weight on it. Because there's no solutions presented, only continual complaining and ignoring of responses (ie, considering them insufficient if recognizing them at all).

** An Event listing requires a start and finish time with a minimum duration of 30 minutes at a single posted location in order to be published as an official Geocaching Event on geocaching.com.

** A CITO Event listing is not the same thing as a standard event, and so requires a posted location for organizing and directing attendees, and requires a minimum of 60 minutes during which time attendees will be cleaning a defined area, the intent of the particular CITO listing.

** A mega-event is also its own type of event with its own requirements.

They have no obligation to explain their decisions, let alone convince you that it's a good decision, just as you are under no obligation to create events for listing at geocaching.com, nor to pay them for any additional features as a premium member. Note: obligation. Of course it's better to listen to community - but I dare anyone to say they don't (which is not the same as being in agreement or accepting and implementing suggestions).

Things change.

Not every cache that could be published 10 years ago can be published today.

Not every event cache that could be published 10 years ago can be published today.

But the definition of the event as it stands makes perfect sense, as far as I'm concerned. I understand that there will be people who don't like it. But there are people didn't like changes that stop those old types of caches from being published today. Yet the sky did not fall.

Find a way to do the things you want to do.

A 30 minute minimum is NOT a problem. Really. It's not. An inconvenience at best.

8k · February 23, 2015

Oddly enough, I don't mind going to Cirque du Soleil. It's more artsy, and embraces the creepiness factor.

I find Cirque du Soleil much creepier than clowns. Those contortionist look like they don't have any bones.

Also they're Canadian.

February 23, 2015

Over here in BC, we never meet in parking lots. That's dangerous - all those cars coming and going. We meet at picnic tables.

8k · February 23, 2015

Over here in BC, we never meet in parking lots. That's dangerous - all those cars coming and going. We meet at picnic tables.

Wow, in Canada they have '50 Shades of Gray' events. That's creepy.

2.7k · February 23, 2015

Some of the Rules of Geocaching with Groundspeak....

1. Geocaches must be 161m from each other.

2. Caches must be at least a container with a log.

3. No more Virtual caches.

4. No more Traveling caches.

These are Rules we all have to accept.

This just added:

5. Events must be at the posted coordinates for a duration of at least 30 minutes.

Not acceptable to you? Find another listing service for your GPS games.

3.1k · February 23, 2015

You DO realize how short 30 minutes is, right?

Obviously you have never had to cuddle with your wife.

Let's not make this personal, eh Roman? That kind of humor is, with me, off limits. <_<

8k · February 24, 2015

You DO realize how short 30 minutes is, right?

Obviously you have never had to cuddle with your wife.

Let's not make this personal, eh Roman? That kind of humor is, with me, off limits.

You need to point Roman! to the link I posted in Off-Topic

7.5k · February 24, 2015

Well, we didn't lie in the event description. It clearly talks about the rafting.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did anything wrong or unethical. But from the current discussion, the theory is that your event would have been rejected if you had listed the end time as including the rafting trip, since that would be admitting to the reviewer that the event was about rafting, not about socializing, and would be admitting that the entire event wasn't in one place.

So I'm saying it's technically a lie to say the event lasted a half hour when it clearly was longer.

Once again.

An event takes place at one location, one waypoint, and must have a period of time during which a person can become an Attendee.

That's it.

You say "once again" as if you're repeating yourself, but the last time you said the host or his delegate had to be at GZ during that time, but you left out that requirement here, and, from my point of view, that changes what you're saying completely.

It's not just 'socializing' to the exclusion of all other reasons, cezanne. That is the primary purpose.

We now have on the table an absolutely crystal clear example of an event that was approved even though it's primary purpose was rafting instead of "socializing". We also know that was clear to all, including the reviewers and lackeys that attended the event.

Now explain to me why cezanne's hiking event won't be approved.

6.8k · February 24, 2015

It's not just 'socializing' to the exclusion of all other reasons, cezanne. That is the primary purpose.

Groundspeak cannot control the content of an event, they can only approve the listing on the basis that the owner is honest and sincere about its content, and is not misrepresenting what the event will be about. Because of that, they cannot enforce that there is a social activity during the event, nor that no activity will take place before or after. They can only approve what the owner states the plan will be.

But yet they publish event caches where eating pizza (or replace for anything else) is part of the official event and this is clearly mentioned and often even makes up the name of the event.

They also publish event caches where hiking or the raft is evident to be what the event is about even though it is not part of the official event.

For that reason, the intent for a geocaching event is to be about geocaching, not the activity of geocaching itself.

It is one, single location, and for a period of time.

I do not see what one, single location and for a period of time has to do with being about geocaching and not being geocaching.

As I said most sedentary events I know of that are not events taking place every month or every two months in a city involve much more geocaching activity than the typical hiking event where often not a single cache at all is found during the whole event.

So it brings me to ask you the following question: What does not mean for you to be about geocaching?

Eating pizza and talking about the best torch for a night cache or the best topping for a cake is more about geocaching than talking about the same topics while hiking?

So how you degine "about geocaching"? For me this is an empty phrase.

They have no obligation to explain their decisions,

Of course they have no such obligation. This does not mean that the questions raised here cannot be asked and that Groundspeak

could not explain the background behind their event notion deliberately.

Groundspeak is also neither obliged to come up with logical rules for event caches nor with logical explanations for their rules.

I and others can however state that we do not regard the rules to be logical and no explanation about workarounds and that one does not need to use gc.com (all very trivial facts) will change that.

What surprises me a lot is that the people in this thread who think that the rules make sense and are logical all the time argue about workarounds and about that one does not to use gc.com and all kinds of other stuff, but do not provide any explanation why they think that the approach taken by Groundspeak is a logical one that is sound and consistent in itself. I'm not surprised that those who typically take a pragmatic approach do not care much about the details of the event cache guidelines as long as they can get published the events they want to get published. I'm however surprised that not more people struggle with the lack of logic behind the approach and presented arguments.

3.1k · February 24, 2015

Well, we didn't lie in the event description. It clearly talks about the rafting.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did anything wrong or unethical. But from the current discussion, the theory is that your event would have been rejected if you had listed the end time as including the rafting trip, since that would be admitting to the reviewer that the event was about rafting, not about socializing, and would be admitting that the entire event wasn't in one place.

So I'm saying it's technically a lie to say the event lasted a half hour when it clearly was longer.

No, from what I've heard in communication about this topic is that any event can still include any "activity", but there must be a clear enough 30-minute window where people can expect to arrive at coordinates and find the Event Cache so they can take part in the event and event activities related to that Event Cache listing.

See the link to a rafting trip event, with the edits it would need to suffice for publication today on Geocaching.com

3.1k · February 24, 2015

We now have on the table an absolutely crystal clear example of an event that was approved even though it's primary purpose was rafting instead of "socializing". We also know that was clear to all, including the reviewers and lackeys that attended the event.

Now explain to me why cezanne's hiking event won't be approved.

It would be, provided it is clear that a 30-minute window exists-- for those who choose not to go on the hike, or for people to gather and socialize before, during, or after--at a single set of coordinates.

3.1k · February 24, 2015

What surprises me a lot is that the people in this thread who think that the rules make sense and are logical all the time argue about workarounds and about that one does not to use gc.com and all kinds of other stuff, but do not provide any explanation why they think that the approach taken by Groundspeak is a logical one that is sound and consistent in itself. I'm not surprised that those who typically take a pragmatic approach do not care much about the details of the event cache guidelines as long as they can get published the events they want to get published. I'm however surprised that not more people struggle with the lack of logic behind the approach and presented arguments.

Are. You. Kidding. Me??

There have been ample examples and explanations by many people about how the addition to the Event Cache guidelines is logical.

No more "hit and run" events
Creates deliberate timeframe for Groundspeak's idea of "socialization"
Is not an undue burden to work into previously-created Event Caches
Allows for more clarity for those who may believe they are entitled to an "Attended" log, but were not allowed to log one because of the design of the Event Cache, or the owner's deletion threats
Moves away from the ability to create "Event Cache" drive-by events used to pad the Smiley count
Provides clarity that Event Cache listings include a location, time, and time frame which will be conducive to socialization
Leaves open the ability to create Event Caches which also include other activities or events
Leaves open a reasonable amount of time to account for those who might be late, delayed, held up, busy but for a few moments within the window of time, etc. for them to "Attend" and meet/socialize
Still maintains that Event Caches occur at set coordinates
Still maintains that Event Caches occur at a set time--start and finish

You and others call them "workarounds," "lies," or "hacks". It's none of the above. It is simply listing your cache in a way that makes it clear that you are meeting the Guidelines. Be sure Event Cache listings have the clear 30-minute window, and you're golden.

3.3k · February 24, 2015

You DO realize how short 30 minutes is, right?

30 minutes is short when you're having fun. It's an eternity when you're handcuffed to a registration table! :anibad:

8k · February 24, 2015

There have been ample examples and explanations by many people about how the addition to the Event Cache guidelines is logical.

No more "hit and run" events
to prevent people who are overly concerned about what a find point is worth from getting their knickers in a twist

Creates deliberate timeframe for Groundspeak's idea of "socialization"
Groundspeak's idea of "socialization", not necessarily everyone's idea

Is not an undue burden to work into previously-created Event Caches
Just because "undue burden" appears in several guidelines doesn't mean we all agree on what it is.

Allows for more clarity for those who may believe they are entitled to an "Attended" log, but were not allowed to log one because of the design of the Event Cache, or the owner's deletion threats
The find* rationale. Got to stop those logging disputes.

Moves away from the ability to create "Event Cache" drive-by events used to pad the Smiley count
(Same a the first bullet) to prevent people who are overly concerned about what a find point is worth from getting their knickers in a twist

Provides clarity that Event Cache listings include a location, time, and time frame which will be conducive to socialization
according to Groundspeak. I'm still not convinced half-an-hour is any more conducive to socialization that five minutes

Leaves open the ability to create Event Caches which also include other activities or events
But causes some anxiety for people who don't want to spend this time away from the main activity of their event.

Leaves open a reasonable amount of time to account for those who might be late, delayed, held up, busy but for a few moments within the window of time, etc. for them to "Attend" and meet/socialize
Perhaps. But people will likely arrive late to a an half hour event, and event if they arrive in the "windoe" they may just find everyone else has already left.

Still maintains that Event Caches occur at set coordinates
Agreed no change to the existing guideline, but needing a minimum time spent at the coordinates may make it less likely for these other activities to be listed as events.

Still maintains that Event Caches occur at a set time--start and finish
Agreed no change to the existing guideline, but needing a minimum time spent at the coordinates may make it less likely for these other activities to be listed as events.

*Dadgum. They've added WOOHOO I GOT A SMILEY to the forbidden words list. :huh:

7.5k · February 24, 2015

We now have on the table an absolutely crystal clear example of an event that was approved even though it's primary purpose was rafting instead of "socializing". We also know that was clear to all, including the reviewers and lackeys that attended the event.

Now explain to me why cezanne's hiking event won't be approved.

It would be, provided it is clear that a 30-minute window exists-- for those who choose not to go on the hike, or for people to gather and socialize before, during, or after--at a single set of coordinates.

Oh, great. I was under the impression that a hiking cache would be strictly forbidden, no matter how much preparation time was allowed. To me, this is 90% of what cezanne wanted for his hiking event.

Now that we've settled that -- ignoring, of course, that we don't actually have anyone explaining it to us, just you providing second hand information because apparently we aren't sufficiently pure to get the dope straight from anyone that would actually make such decisions -- the only question I'm not clear of is whether cezanne will get in trouble -- perhaps have trouble getting future events approved? -- if he shows up a half hour late for his own events.

6.8k · February 24, 2015

It would be, provided it is clear that a 30-minute window exists-- for those who choose not to go on the hike, or for people to gather and socialize before, during, or after--at a single set of coordinates.

Oh, great. I was under the impression that a hiking cache would be strictly forbidden, no matter how much preparation time was allowed. To me, this is 90% of what cezanne wanted for his hiking event.

Now that we've settled that -- ignoring, of course, that we don't actually have anyone explaining it to us, just you providing second hand information because apparently we aren't sufficiently pure to get the dope straight from anyone that would actually make such decisions -- the only question I'm not clear of is whether cezanne will get in trouble -- perhaps have trouble getting future events approved? -- if he shows up a half hour late for his own events.

Wait, NeverSummer does not know whether the event cache would be published if the end of the hike is given as time of the end of the event cache. He all the time uses event in a different way than I do - his event does not mean event cache. It's no surprise that the participants of a Groundspeak event can go for a hike or another activity after the actual event (event cache in my meaning).

I would like an event that provides 5 hours of time for socializing not to be reduced to 30 minutes as regards to what is mentioned as interval between start and end time on the listing. In my opinion, this displays such events in a bad light and makes them under-achievers though they are actually the contrary.

6.8k · February 24, 2015

[*]Leaves open the ability to create Event Caches which also include other activities or events

You and others call them "workarounds," "lies," or "hacks". It's none of the above. It is simply listing your cache in a way that makes it clear that you are meeting the Guidelines. Be sure Event Cache listings have the clear 30-minute window, and you're golden.

You talk about events and I talk about event caches. It hardly makes sense.

Of course Groundspeak cannot hinder cachers who visit an event cache to do something else outside of the event cache. I have the issue with how Groundspeak defines event cache and argues with socialization.

All what it boils down is that Groundspeak makes it impossible to come up with great event caches which are long enough to provide ample of opportunity for socializing but are not sedentary. The fact that you go for a walk after the end of your Pi event cache, does not change the effect that your event cache is a boring 30 minutes period spent at a bakery which is of the minimum required length to make it publishable. In my opinion it is a shame that you have to write up your event cache like this. Of course it makes no sense to first sit 4 hours at the bakery and do away with the other activity as it completely changes the experience to be expected.

While some write geocaching events should be about geocaching, I rather say that the guidelines seem to suggest that events are about logging attended logs.

2.6k · February 24, 2015

Now that we've settled that -- ignoring, of course, that we don't actually have anyone explaining it to us, just you providing second hand information because apparently we aren't sufficiently pure to get the dope straight from anyone that would actually make such decisions -- the only question I'm not clear of is whether cezanne will get in trouble -- perhaps have trouble getting future events approved? -- if he shows up a half hour late for his own events.

I gave my own view on the responsibility of the event owner in Post 179

The guidelines are not explicit in this regard, but to me creating an event (which invites people to attend) implies there is something for them to attend. I.e. at least 1 person to meet. My opinion only - someone creating an event should ensure that they (or someone they delegate) is there for the defined period.

Which would mean the following would not be in the spirit of the guidelines (and yes may get you in trouble with future events):

1. Posting an event time from 7 until 730, but you leave at 7:05 and take everyone there with you. (If you leave at 7:05 but delegate someone else to stay, that's OK).

2. Creating an event for which you have no intent to attend or delegate someone to attend. E.g I create an event in Antarctica just for "fun". The listing meets the guidelines, and people can go there, but I won't be there, and I don't know anyone going there. I am sure this will get me "in trouble" even though I can't find a rule against it.

If something unavoidable happens to cezanne on his way to the event and he is 30 mins late, then well things happen. If it is possible for him to do so, I'm sure he will let others know. If he can't then he can't. I don't think missing or being late for your own event for valid reasons will cause any future trouble. Trying to manipulate the system (like my hypothetical examples above) probably will

15.3k · February 24, 2015

Which would mean the following would not be in the spirit of the guidelines (and yes may get you in trouble with future events):

1. Posting an event time from 7 until 730, but you leave at 7:05 and take everyone there with you. (If you leave at 7:05 but delegate someone else to stay, that's OK).

Well, yes. If you assume that the entirety of the event cache will occur at the posted coordinates, then yes, the event cache has to occur at the posted coordinates for the duration specified in the listing.

But that's issue. Why must the event cache be stationary? Why can't it start at the posted coordinates at a stated start time, then move along a specified route, eventually returning to the posted coordinates at a stated end time?

Groundspeaks lays down some event time rules...

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