How does water get into cache's?

[+CacheMule]

Hi, I was just wondering why so many of the caches I have found are completely flooded with water. If not flooded then the logs are wet and the names are smeared. I found this to be true in bison canisters, snap and lock containers, and decon containers. The only type of containers I have found that are completley dry are ammo cans. Is the problem from the ice or snow over the winter season? Or is it the rain? Or is it people who find the caches in the rain?

 

thanks

 

-cachemule

Edited April 25, 2014 by CacheMule

[+SwineFlew]

I have see an ammo can full of water.

[+K13]

For many containers, the water gets in when someone doesn't close the lid properly. Sometimes it is from the container not being sealable due to gasket issues or cracks, etc. For some containers, condensation gets in there from the atmosphere and dampens the log. Those are just a few possible ways it can happen.

[+tozainamboku]

I have see an ammo can full of water.

So have I, and I live in a drought stricken area so I know it's not from people caching in the rain . They get dented, or someone thought they would make good target practice. I also seen them rusted through.

 

No container is perfectly watertight. Ammo cans work so well because they have substantial gasket. It's also made of material that can withstand the temperature extremes of outdoors. The gasket and o-rings on lock 'n locks or bison tubes aren't designed to be left outdoors and be subjected to cycling between hot and cold, so they get brittle. Like the o-rings on the space shuttle Challenger...

 

The latching mechanism on an ammo can is also pretty fool-proof. It ensures that when the ammo can is closed and latched there is a good seal around the gasket. Tupperware, decons, and even lock 'n locks, can all be closed but not sealed properly.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Is the problem from the ice or snow over the winter season? Or is it the rain? Or is it people who find the caches in the rain?

All of the above.... + a lot of other reasons, too.

 

Capillary action, humidity fluctuations, compromised seals (if the cache has a seal at all!) and other less obvious reasons.

 

Take the log sheet or book, for one thing. Paper is a sponge in plain air. It sucks the humidity right to it, very similar to a desiccant. Lock paper into a closed container, expose it to wild temperature/humidity fluctuations and guess what in there is the most wet? Paper, of course -- without the container ever having been opened.

 

An ammo can is best because of its construction design -- but even that is not foolproof when enough fools mess with it.

 

Ziploc or simple plastic baggies are the biggest culprit. Then again, they (baggies) aren't really the biggest problem. That is reserved for the folks that close a lid with the edge or corner of a baggie inside compromising the seal of the cache lid.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Gitchee-Gummee

[+L0ne.R]

Many of those containers that look like authentic containers, especially Lock & Locks and bison tubes, are actually dollar store knock-offs. I have yet to see a dollar store container stay dry for long.

 

But I have had some of my authentic Lock & Locks get water in them. The usual problem is what G-G said, a baggie caught in the seal between the lid and bottom container. I try to check the seal when putting a lid back on a LnL. Other times it's because someone didn't lock down one of the latches.

[+The_Incredibles_]

I would say a big part of it is people opening caches in the rain. With lock n locks, there's also the possibility of people putting the lid face down on wet grass. There's also the issue of dirt in the seals. Also, as lock n locks are opened and closed, eventually the plastic on the snaps wears down and the seal is not as tight.

 

With ammo cans, unless you swing the lid right open, even if it's raining, the contents are sheltered a bit. Plus, it takes more force to close ammo cans than lock n locks, at least that's my theory. Being on the wet coast, we have alot of time to think about moisture issues.

Edited April 26, 2014 by The_Incredibles_

[+Viajero Perdido]

Often there's an imperfect seal. A coffee can, say.

 

 

This was unopened for three years.

 

Every night, the cache cools down, and the air inside contracts. It sucks in a little outside air. That air carries moisture, which condenses on the cool container walls. The next morning, the cache warms up, expanding the air inside and forcing it out. Repeat. In this way, containers breathe unless they're perfectly sealed.

 

~~~

 

Also, letting snow get knocked into a container is never a good thing. Stand up under the tree where you found the cache, and ack! - there's snow down your back. And inside the container too. How many people shake that out?

[+cheech gang]

I would say a big part of it is people opening caches in the rain. With lock n locks, there's also the possibility of people putting the lid face down on wet grass. There's also the issue of dirt in the seals. Also, as lock n locks are opened and closed, eventually the plastic on the snaps wears down and the seal is not as tight.

 

With ammo cans, unless you swing the lid right open, even if it's raining, the contents are sheltered a bit. Plus, it takes more force to close ammo cans than lock n locks, at least that's my theory. Being on the wet coast, we have alot of time to think about moisture issues.

 

I've run into several lok-n-loks with the lid on upside down. That seems like it would take extra effort to accomplish...

[+niraD]

Well, you know what they say about making things idiot-proof...

 

Decon containers are a classic example of a container that is often not closed properly. Many people don't realize that you have to snap all 4 corners closed. They hear a click and think they're done.

 

I've seen beginners struggle with an ammo can. The locking mechanism isn't terribly intuitive to most people who have never seen an ammo can before. And if the hinge slides sideways and the lid comes off, then they're really confused.

 

And any container will wick moisture if a plastic bag is trapped in its seal.

 

I'm impressed that someone could replace the lid on an L&L upside down. I can understand people being a bit confused by the locking mechanism if they've never seen it before, but putting the lid on upside down takes it to a whole new level.

 

Most people are familiar with lids that screw on. That's part of why I like wide-mouth water bottles, preforms, match safes, Bison tubes, and similar containers with screw-on lids.

[+The_Incredibles_]

 

I'm impressed that someone could replace the lid on an L&L upside down. I can understand people being a bit confused by the locking mechanism if they've never seen it before, but putting the lid on upside down takes it to a whole new level.

 

 

I found a lock n lock once with the lid inside out. You have to be special to figure out how to do that.

[4wheelin_fool]

There are a bunch of us around the globe that go around and put water inside of non-ammo cans, as a passive aggressive way to inspire people to use better containers. It's always best right after it rains, as nobody really suspects anything. Often we get beaten by others who inadvertently close the container on a bag, which frequently allows water to get in.

[+The_Incredibles_]

There are a bunch of us around the globe that go around and put water inside of non-ammo cans, as a passive aggressive way to inspire people to use better containers.

 

As long as it's not yellow water, that's fine with me.

[+L0ne.R]

1398478782[/url]' post='5374954']

 

I'm impressed that someone could replace the lid on an L&L upside down. I can understand people being a bit confused by the locking mechanism if they've never seen it before, but putting the lid on upside down takes it to a whole new level.

 

It happened to one of my caches. Authentic Lock n Lock. Miraculously there was no water in the cache. Last finder was a couple of weeks before my visit to the cache.

 

 

[+Bear and Ragged]

"Great cache. Took nothing, left tears of joy!"

 

"Terrible cache. Took nothing, left tears of sadness."

 

[4wheelin_fool]

There are a bunch of us around the globe that go around and put water inside of non-ammo cans, as a passive aggressive way to inspire people to use better containers.

 

As long as it's not yellow water, that's fine with me.

 

Its not. We use only the best spring water, such as Perrier. We also open every cache and make sure that the pens and pencils are inside of the same bag that contains the logbook. Over time this usually pokes a hole in the bag to render it useless as a second layer of protection. Its all part of a global anti-bag program to save the planet.

 

Ever go for a walk and notice bags of dog poo dangling from trees? You'd think that dog walkers would use tiny gardening trowels to toss the biodegradable poo off trail, but somehow they put it in bags and hang them from trees. This is actually part of a second project to inspire people to hate bags. Its really us.

[4wheelin_fool]

 

It happened to one of my caches. Authentic Lock n Lock. Miraculously there was no water in the cache. Last finder was a couple of weeks before my visit to the cache.

 

 

Its because there is a label fastened to the inside of the lid, in which an intro-app user believed it should be on the outside. You may think they are a little slow, but they are thinking that they are doing you a favor by putting the lid on at all. A noticeable pattern.

[7rxc]

I've found more than a few where the CO and/or the finders were basicly the problem.

 

Bisons and match containers often fall victim to over tightening the sections... the small rings either get crushed (damaged), distorted due to the turning motion and friction, and sometimes extruded right out of the sealing surfaces completely. Adds to normal deterioration of the rubber as well since it is under stress.

Most ring seals should be tightened just a bit more than basic contact, maybe no more than 1/16 of a turn after in stops under light finger pressure... and the seals and surfaces have to be clean, I use a small 'baby' soft toothbrush on all types of containers with ring seals, even ammo cans.

 

Then there are the cammo tapers... I find all sorts where the CO figured out that the only way to get the tape to stay on the box was to run it from outside to inside the box across the seal and surfaces, actually worse than a baggie since the cloth tape (common) tends to act as a wick. If I can I try to do surgery to fix it and leave a note on the cache page about reworking the taping if it needs a rethink. Old tape usually seems to stay put after baking in place... it's fresh tape that creeps off tapered surfaces it seems.

 

One memorable container which was full of water to the brim on two occasions and I couldn't think of anything but vandalism from locals... but I found it was probably just ill planning and told the owner so. We did manage to make it workable, but I believe they archived it after a few years.

 

Problem was trying to make a dry cache but not getting enough information. The container was some sort of tupperware sort of food container, a round bowl with a venting device on top which could be opened or closed.

The hide was under a big rock trailside and placed back from the edge a fair distance to avoid muggle eyes.

This also was considered to be an excellent rain shelter since the rock was one single piece with no cracks.

When I found the cache first time it had been raining heavily a few days earlier, the ground was dried up gravel but the cache was full of clean water right up to the top. It had been logged a week or so earlier with no problems listed. Took it out, dumped the water out and dried the log and contents out. Started to think about it and figured that someone didn't like the cache or something. Noticed the vent, and closed it since it was open, cleaned up the seals and put it all back with the log in a new freezer bag. A week later I was going by on the hunt for other caches and checked it out, full of water again. We had had some light rain the day before, and the ground was damp but not muddy or wet, but I noticed the rock had a small puddle on the top.

I should have said it earlier, but the rock top had a slight concavity I hadn't seen last time, 3 sides ran towards the center and then from there the hollow led over the end of the rock with the hidey hole. I also notice that the vent in the lid was open again and that it really didn't stay in place very well since it was intended for fridge or table top use. While drying it out again, I took the time to pour the water slowly onto the top of the rock and sure enough once the level of the puddle rose a bit the water headed for the end and over the edge, but more as a trickle than a flow since the depth wasn't great. Then it hit me and I looked at what was happening underneath. That trickle went down the rock face, and then seeped along the roof of the hidey hole area back to exactly above where the container sat and formed a slow drip... which fell exactly onto the lid of the container and down the vent. A shelter with a natural funnel feeding a container with a designed in funnel as well. Not much water was needed to fill the rock and the container to the top. I had some silicone seal along which took care of the vent, and I emailed the owner who went over and did some work on the drainage under the rock (non destructive of course) and also was able to relocate the cache a bit so it wasn't under the drip.

 

Point is, to really check out what you use and to really eyeball the hide location.

 

We all need to think about opening and closing caches in bad weather too. If I have warning of rain, I usually have one of those little collapsible umbrellas or my bigggy one. Don't use it too much for me, but they make decent cover for the boxes... a small towel helps as well for really wet hands... and be aware of your hat if any, rain runs off brims and right on into the box. Oh, late thought, avoid placing on flood prone areas if you can... we lost a few here last year, after years of no high water at all. That much water can cause loss or leaking you wouldn't expect.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+CacheMule]

I'm wondering now if I could put silica packets inside the cache log's baggie? Maybe it could cut down on some of the moisture and preserve the log better.

Edited April 26, 2014 by CacheMule

[+niraD]

I'm wondering now if I could put silica packets inside the cache log's baggie? Maybe it could cut down on some of the moisture and preserve the log better.

Silica packets work by absorbing moisture. They're effective in a sealed environment, where there is a limited amount of moisture to absorb. But in an open environment (like a poorly sealed container/bag) or in an environment that is opened and closed repeatedly (like a geocache), the silica packet would get saturated quickly, and then it would be useless.

 

I've used silica packets for preserving gardening seeds from season to season. You have to keep the container of seeds sealed, and you have to recharge the silica packets after you've opened the container a few times. And the silica packets you use for containers like that are much bigger than the tiny packets included in the packaging of consumer products.

[+popokiiti]

To minimize the amount of rain getting inside a cache on a rainy day, we always put the lid back on while signing the log. Doesn't stop it completely, but it helps. Best caches we've found are those that have seals, be they bisons, pill containers, Lock and Locks or matchstick holders.

[+The_Incredibles_]

I'm wondering now if I could put silica packets inside the cache log's baggie? Maybe it could cut down on some of the moisture and preserve the log better.

Silica packets work by absorbing moisture. They're effective in a sealed environment, where there is a limited amount of moisture to absorb. But in an open environment (like a poorly sealed container/bag) or in an environment that is opened and closed repeatedly (like a geocache), the silica packet would get saturated quickly, and then it would be useless.

 

I've used silica packets for preserving gardening seeds from season to season. You have to keep the container of seeds sealed, and you have to recharge the silica packets after you've opened the container a few times. And the silica packets you use for containers like that are much bigger than the tiny packets included in the packaging of consumer products.

 

That's right. Silica packets only work for a tiny amount of moisture. You also need to be careful which ones you use. Some of them rupture quite easy.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Forget the silica packets.

They work well enough for a factory-sealed package. They only create more of a mess on a container that is meant to be opened often.

 

They suck up excess moisture when the humidity is high and release it (in the container) when the humidity is low.

 

Large silica containers work well for things like safes, but you also need a plan. They have to be 'recharged' occasionally -- by baking them. It relieves the moisture within the silica. Otherwise, they keep the humidity level constant -- HIGH!

[+jellis]

Came across a cache with the lid on top but the bottom of the cache had a crack in it.

[JASTA 11]

Every night, the cache cools down, and the air inside contracts. It sucks in a little outside air. That air carries moisture, which condenses on the cool container walls. The next morning, the cache warms up, expanding the air inside and forcing it out. Repeat. In this way, containers breathe unless they're perfectly sealed.

 

This is exactly what happens

 

I'm wondering now if I could put silica packets inside the cache log's baggie? Maybe it could cut down on some of the moisture and preserve the log better.

 

We use them in the baggie with the logbook. They won't do much out in the cache container itself. Over time it will need to be changed out.

 

A lot of our caches are near rivers and ponds or swamps, so we use small Plano Waterproof tackle boxes. They are permananently hinged on one side and have a substantial rubber seal. They've held up to everything so far, including being totally submerged by flooding.

[+CacheMule]

I'm thinking now that the pelican boxes are a much more pricey but a better alternative to the lock and lock containers. The seal on it is impervious to water. It floats on a river or lake and if you force it under the water it will pop right back up.

Edited April 30, 2014 by CacheMule