How to prevent this?

[+QClan]

All the information you need is at the listed coordinates = multi.

Additional information is required before seeking the cache = puzzle.

 

This one, by that definition, is a puzzle, because information not available at the first waypoint is required.

 

I seriously cannot understand why this is causing such confusion.

 

When you refer to additional information needed are you referring to needing to know the facts about Henry or needing to know the equation?

 

Needing to know the facts about Henry. The CO was clear in the cache page that you need that for solving the first stage, which makes this one a puzzle.

 

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. The facts actually help you go from stage two to stage three. Perhaps I'll toss a book about Henry into stage 2 instead so that people can look it up and it can stay a multi.

 

Thanks!

[+fizzymagic]

The CO was clear in the cache page that you need that for solving the first stage, which makes this one a puzzle.

 

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. The facts actually help you go from stage two to stage three. Perhaps I'll toss a book about Henry into stage 2 instead so that people can look it up and it can stay a multi.

 

Yes, including the required information in an earlier stage would mean no homework is required and it could then be a multi.

[+dprovan]

I'm sorry, I do not believe I ever blamed others for my incorrect listing. I debated about the listing as I said. In the end, I felt that since there were multiple stages I needed to list it to a multi-stage cache. If I misunderstood, it was not intentional or because I 'wanted' a multi. Some people in this thread feel that it is appropriately listed, and others do not.

As I guess is clear now, calling it a multi was a reasonable choice. But Unknown would also have been fine because unknown caches can also have multiple stages, and the posted coordinates for an Unknown can be a starting point with either a pointer or a question to answer. So it's your choice, and if you want people to think of it as a multi, leave it listed as a multi. The suggestion is that listing it as a puzzle cache might avoid the problem you're trying to avoid, but I think people are off the mark to say you're flat out wrong to list it as a multi.

 

Personally, I'm not sure why you don't just list the 8 wives of Henry the 8th in the hint. Then it won't matter whether seekers come prepared. But if you want to make it harder, what you did is fine. People being unprepared isn't really a problem any more than people not being able to find a difficult hide is a problem. If you want it hard, rate it hard. If you want it easy, make it easier.

[+cheech gang]

The previous post illustrates the FACT that confusion reigns.

[4wheelin_fool]

King Henry the Eighth,

to six wives he was wedded.

One died, one survived,

two divorced, two beheaded.

[+Don_J]

You have to visit the listed coordinates to begin your adventure = Multicache.

The listed coordinates are completely bogus and probably have nothing to do with the cache = Puzzle.

 

The OP's cache smells like a multi to me.

 

Nope. Wrong analysis.

 

All the information you need is at the listed coordinates = multi.

Additional information is required before seeking the cache = puzzle.

 

This one, by that definition, is a puzzle, because information not available at the first waypoint is required.

 

I seriously cannot understand why this is causing such confusion.

 

I can not understand why you can not understand that this is causing confusion.

 

Well, now I'm confused again.

 

Well, Fizzy feels that the fact that most people will have to do research on King Henry before they can go to the listed coordinates, trumps everything else and makes it a puzzle.

 

Me, I'm not to sure, but I understand his point, and did not consider it when I originally posted.

 

Edit to add: After reading further, I'm going to go with Fizzy on this one.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Don_J

[+Don_J]

With that said, let's analyze another one. (This is a local cache where the CO claims that our reviewer told him it is a multi).

 

Go to listed coordinates and obtain a five digit number. Take that number and create a list of prime numbers that it can be divided by. Do basic arithmetic on those numbers to obtain the final coordinates.

 

Now, I know what prime numbers are, but how many would have to look it up? While I know what prime numbers are, I absolutely do not have the ability to determine them from a five digit number in the field. Even if I had a calculator, it would be a trial and error deal for me. To solve this, I had to go get the numbers then bring them home and plug them into a website that quickly gave me the solution.

 

I feel that this is a puzzle, but my opinions posted earlier in this thread are based on the idea that my reviewer thinks that this is a multi because the posted coordinates are real and need to be visited.

[+QClan]

 

Personally, I'm not sure why you don't just list the 8 wives of Henry the 8th in the hint. Then it won't matter whether seekers come prepared. But if you want to make it harder, what you did is fine. People being unprepared isn't really a problem any more than people not being able to find a difficult hide is a problem. If you want it hard, rate it hard. If you want it easy, make it easier.

I thought it was fairly common knowledge, but have since learned otherwise. I mentioned needing to know it on the off chance someone didn't. That chance wasn't as "off" as I thought.

 

If I was going to include that info at all, I'd have put it in the description. I know not everyone has a smart phone and try not to make hints too long to decrypt in the field. I think I'm going to modify the page a bit to make it more reflective of a multi type cache. I love the verse 4 wheeling posted.

 

The point of this wasn't to be difficult, but to share a bit of one of my favorite historical tales with others... And to make people laugh with the surprise at the final.

 

I can see now that my misunderstanding of puzzles and multis led to some confusion for cachers seeking this. I will take steps to rectify that.

[+MKFmly]

Off Topic but technically, it can be argued that Henry the VIII had two wives (or four if if you're a catholic).

 

Henry's fourth marriage to Anne of Cleves was annulled. This is very different from divorce. Legally, it means the marriage never took place.

 

These were two grounds for the annulment. Anne and Henry Never Consummated the marriage. Refusal or inability to consummate a mariage is still grounds for annulmant today.

 

In addition, Anne was already betrothed to Francis, Duke of Lorraine when she married Henry. At that time, the formal act of betrothal was a legal bar to marrying someone else.

 

All parties agreed no legal marriage had taken place. So that leaves five.

 

The Pope declared Henry's second marriage to Anne Boleyn illegal, because the King was still married to his first wife, Catherine of Aragon.

 

Henry, as head of the new Church of England, declared in turn that his marriage was invalid on the legal ground that a man could not sleep with his brother's widow. The King cited the Old Testament, which he claimed as 'God's Law', whether the Pope liked it or not.

 

Depending on whether you believe the Pope or the King, this brings it down to either four or three marriages.

 

Henry annulled his marriage to Anne Boleyn just before he had her executed for adultery. This was somewhat illogical: if the marriage had never existed, Anne could hardly be accused of betraying it.

 

He did the same with his fifth wife, Catherine Howard. All the evidence suggests she was unfaithful to him before and during their marriage. This time, Henry passed a special act making it treasonable for a queen to commit adultery. Once again, he also had the marriage annuled.

 

So that makes four annulments, and only two incontestably legal marriages.

 

Apart from Henry's last wife, Catherine Parr (who outlived him), the lady who got off lightest was Anne of Cleves. After their Annulment, the King showered her with gifts and the official title of 'beloved sister'. She visited court often, swapping cooks,recipes,and household gadgets with the man who had never been her husband.

[+redsox_mark]

Firstly my thoughts were multi or puzzle, either way you need to read the cache page. And that a multi with a field puzzle attribute was valid (as is Puzzle/Mystery) for this cache.

 

But then I found this here

 

"Field Puzzle: To be added to a cache page when the cache requires solving a puzzle during the activity of geocaching. Cache types: Mystery/Puzzle caches (Unknown)."

 

This seems to imply the Field Puzzle attribute should only be used on a Mystery/Puzzle cache. Though I'm not sure that's really right. If you put a stamp in it then it could apply to a Letterbox Hybrid at least.

[+cheech gang]

and the plot thickens

[+Harry Dolphin]

There's a plaque at stage 1, with numbers you use to hit stage 2. I thought since the cache page, where I entered waypoints, had an option for a non physical container (I think it was called question to answer) it was okay to have a stage without a physical container and without the coords written explicitly out.

 

Add that to the fact that I've found several multis with a similar set up (get numbers at first location, enter into simple formula and find coords for stage 2), and I think that's where I made my mistake. I actually don't think I've done a multi with a physical container at each stage, and only one where the coords were completely written out at stage 1.

 

I know that other caches don't set precedent, so I guess I should have asked some reviewers or people here how I should have listed it, rather than assuming.

 

I had a cache that took you to a plaque. Use the numbers for the final coords. I had it listed as a Mystery. Many people said: No. That's a multi. Information available from the plaque. No puzzle to solve. Much beloved. The final was 30' off the side of the cliff, 60' down a 240' staircase.

When the ferry terminal moved, they closed the staircase! "Work in progress. Temporarily unavailable." (Yeah. Right!) After six months, I archived it. (I can still see the cache! I just cannot get to it!) And hid a new one. (Hide is not nearly as good. But still the same great view.) This time I used the historical plaque referring to the duels that took place (well, 240' down at the bottom of the cliff...) And I cogitated long on how to classify the cache. Go to starting location. Use information there to determine the final location. That's a multi cache, not a mystery cache. I only have one other multi (three stages. First two are containers with the coords for the next). That one is a couple of miles hiking with 300' of climb.

On the other fin, I have a mystery cache where you have to collect information from four stages to get the coords for the final. Based on the game Clue. That one I definitely consider to be a Mystery. About 4 miles, 200' climb uphill in both directions. Hiking Permit required. 18 finds in 7 years. Oh, well.

Yours falls somewhere in between. Add 4wheelin fool's poem to the cache page and definitely a multi! Even without, you have warned the cachers that they need to know this info. Definitely qualifies as a multi if you so choose. And I'd stick with that. There seem to be some highly opinionated posters here who insist that their interpretation is the only correct one. (What else would you expect from a forum???)

You could go either way with this one (I would choose multi - fits the requirements).

But your original question was how to avoid confusion at the starting point. Answer: Nope. Not going to happen. Some people do not read or understand what they read. 4wheeling fool's poem might help a bit.

Most of my other mystery/puzzles (rather lengthy list) are: Solve the puzzle from home to gt the final coords.

[+dprovan]

I thought it was fairly common knowledge, but have since learned otherwise. I mentioned needing to know it on the off chance someone didn't. That chance wasn't as "off" as I thought.

Yeah, way off! I had to go check your profile to see if you lived in England or something where that has the slightest chance of being true. I doubt most Americans even know that Henry had a wife problem.

 

If I was going to include that info at all, I'd have put it in the description. I know not everyone has a smart phone and try not to make hints too long to decrypt in the field.

Given the way you feel about it, it sounds like putting it in the description would be perfect. You can even say, "As everyone knows..." in order to tweak those that don't know about all 8 of Henry's wives (including the 2 that didn't make it into the history books).

 

I can see now that my misunderstanding of puzzles and multis led to some confusion for cachers seeking this. I will take steps to rectify that.

It's not clear to me that you or your cache were the source of the confusion, but of course it's great to make things clearer once you know in what ways some people will be confused for whatever reasons.

[+funkymunkyzone]

Needing to know the facts about Henry. The CO was clear in the cache page that you need that for solving the first stage, which makes this one a puzzle.

 

Say what? Did you really just suggest that because a finder needed to know something then it must be a puzzle? Seriously?

 

And there was me thinking that the D rating quite nicely handled "level of knowledge" required to find a cache... "Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find"

[+funkymunkyzone]

With that said, let's analyze another one. (This is a local cache where the CO claims that our reviewer told him it is a multi).

 

Go to listed coordinates and obtain a five digit number. Take that number and create a list of prime numbers that it can be divided by. Do basic arithmetic on those numbers to obtain the final coordinates.

 

Now, I know what prime numbers are, but how many would have to look it up? While I know what prime numbers are, I absolutely do not have the ability to determine them from a five digit number in the field. Even if I had a calculator, it would be a trial and error deal for me. To solve this, I had to go get the numbers then bring them home and plug them into a website that quickly gave me the solution.

 

I feel that this is a puzzle, but my opinions posted earlier in this thread are based on the idea that my reviewer thinks that this is a multi because the posted coordinates are real and need to be visited.

 

Yep, that's also *clearly* a multi.

 

It should, however, have a D rating that reflects the difficulty of that stage: "Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find"

[z0mbieCache]

I say this at least 4 times a week... Here goes:

 

"I swear, nobody reads anything that's not posted on their facebook wall... and it disgusts me"

[+cheech gang]

To me two things are CERTAIN here:

 

A. The OP got the answer to the original question. Provide the information you feel is necessary. If a seeker fails to read the cache page that is their problem, not yours. Whether it is a Puzzle or a Multi has little impact on this tenet.

 

B. Despite the proclamations of certain "experts", the secondary question that has arisen, Puzzle vs Multi, is NOT as clearly defined as one would think and is still subject to interpretation. Those that are 100% convinced that they know the correct interpretation have not convinced 100% of the rest of us.

 

I am still awaiting further review of the tapes by the officials in the booth.

[+funkymunkyzone]

Having to stop in the middle of doing a multi-cache and say to oneself "I don't have the knowledge/skill/equipment with me right now to complete this cache - I better go home and come back better prepared" does not a puzzle make.

[+niraD]

idea: hide a container at stage 1

put a LAMINATED paper there with this text :

IF YOU FOUND THIS CONTAINER; YOU DID NOT READ THE CACHE PAGE AND DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT A MULTI IS,

THIS IS NOT THE FINAL CACHE, THIS IS NOT THE LOG BOOK YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

I've seen containers like this acquire "replacement" logs, and I've seen future seekers sign those "replacement" logs, bypassing the intended cache experience. My preference would be to use a non-container for this purpose. If there is no container, then it is less likely that someone will leave a "replacement" container.

 

 

And FWIW, in gimmick car rallyes (another hobby of mine), we encourage rallyemasters not to expect any knowledge of the rallye's theme. So a rallye with a presidential theme shouldn't expect anyone to know the US presidents. And a rallye with a Pokemon theme shouldn't expect anyone to know anything about Pokemon. And a rallye with a hockey theme shouldn't expect anyone to know anything about hockey or about the NHL or about the US team in the 1980 Winter Olympics.

 

I think a similar rule of thumb could be applied to distinguishing between multi-caches and mystery/puzzle caches. The knowledge required for multi-caches should be pretty minimal. If it isn't something that "everyone knows", then it might feel a lot more like a puzzle to many people, and listing it as such will help people find the kinds of caches they're most interested in.

[4wheelin_fool]

Needing to know the facts about Henry. The CO was clear in the cache page that you need that for solving the first stage, which makes this one a puzzle.

 

Say what? Did you really just suggest that because a finder needed to know something then it must be a puzzle? Seriously?

 

And there was me thinking that the D rating quite nicely handled "level of knowledge" required to find a cache... "Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find"

 

Yes, seriously, its a puzzle. There are more than a few around here like that, and they are all listed under "Mystery". Difficulty rating is always in reference to finding physical stages, unless it is listed as a puzzle. If you are scratching your head because you can't find a stage, its a multi. If you are scratching your head because you have to solve something, its a puzzle. Or its always possible that you could have ticks, chiggers, dandruff or head lice. Multis have a narrow definition compared to the mystery icon, which can refer to a wide variety of hides. A multi stage cache should not require any type of special knowledge other than basic math, but can include special tools. A mystery icon is for solving puzzles, answering knowledge questions, offset coordinates, following firetacks on trees, and anything else.

 

I suppose the conflicting opinions are due to regional differences, and what each person has gotten accustomed to finding in their area.

Edited July 3, 2013 by 4wheelin_fool

[+briansnat]

You can't hold everyone's hands. The info needed to find it is on the cache page, it's up to them to use it. If they go to GZ and come up empty it's their fault, not yours.

 

After looking at the cache page again,I agree with others, it should be a puzzle cache. Often the lines between puzzles and multis are blurred, but this appears to fit the puzzle category far more neatly than multi. Still, if someone actually reads the page the fact that it was mislabeled should be apparent and they could adjust in the field.

Edited July 3, 2013 by briansnat

[+QClan]

You can't hold everyone's hands. The info needed to find it is on the cache page, it's up to them to use it. If they go to GZ and come up empty it's their fault, not yours.

 

After looking at the cache page again,I agree with others, it should be a puzzle cache. Often the lines between puzzles and multis are blurred, but this appears to fit the puzzle category far more neatly than multi. Still, if someone actually reads the page the fact that it was mislabeled should be apparent and they could adjust in the field.

If I remove the part about needing to know facts about Henry, and there are just two simple arithmetic problems to go from stage 1 to 2 and stage 2 to final, is it then a multi or a puzzle?

 

I'm just trying to get a clear picture on if virtual stages (which would require a calculation) are okay as part of a multi.

[+funkymunkyzone]

Needing to know the facts about Henry. The CO was clear in the cache page that you need that for solving the first stage, which makes this one a puzzle.

 

Say what? Did you really just suggest that because a finder needed to know something then it must be a puzzle? Seriously?

 

And there was me thinking that the D rating quite nicely handled "level of knowledge" required to find a cache... "Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find"

 

Yes, seriously, its a puzzle. There are more than a few around here like that, and they are all listed under "Mystery". Difficulty rating is always in reference to finding physical stages, unless it is listed as a puzzle. If you are scratching your head because you can't find a stage, its a multi. If you are scratching your head because you have to solve something, its a puzzle. Or its always possible that you could have ticks, chiggers, dandruff or head lice. Multis have a narrow definition compared to the mystery icon, which can refer to a wide variety of hides. A multi stage cache should not require any type of special knowledge other than basic math, but can include special tools. A mystery icon is for solving puzzles, answering knowledge questions, offset coordinates, following firetacks on trees, and anything else.

 

I suppose the conflicting opinions are due to regional differences, and what each person has gotten accustomed to finding in their area.

 

I think you've decided it should be a puzzle and now you're justifying your decision.

 

What if you need to read a date of a plaque and have to do some maths to work out the final coordinates from that date. That might be hard/impossible if you're hopeless at maths, so that should be a puzzle too then! In fact, that means basically all multi's with virtual waypoints have to be puzzles instead of multi's because they almost invariably ask you to do something with a number or text that is not simply "read the coords for the next stage".

 

I had a 2-stage multi that used "position of letter x on line y of the sign" - by your definition that should be a puzzle because there was something to solve at the waypoint? No.

 

Re "Difficulty rating is always in reference to finding physical stages, unless it is listed as a puzzle" and "A multi stage cache should not require any type of special knowledge other than basic math, but can include special tools" - not according to the accepted definition of the D rating under the clayjar rating system that was integrated into the geocaching.com site.

Edited July 3, 2013 by funkymunkyzone

[+Don_J]

You can't hold everyone's hands. The info needed to find it is on the cache page, it's up to them to use it. If they go to GZ and come up empty it's their fault, not yours.

 

After looking at the cache page again,I agree with others, it should be a puzzle cache. Often the lines between puzzles and multis are blurred, but this appears to fit the puzzle category far more neatly than multi. Still, if someone actually reads the page the fact that it was mislabeled should be apparent and they could adjust in the field.

If I remove the part about needing to know facts about Henry, and there are just two simple arithmetic problems to go from stage 1 to 2 and stage 2 to final, is it then a multi or a puzzle?

 

I'm just trying to get a clear picture on if virtual stages (which would require a calculation) are okay as part of a multi.

 

The only stage of a multi that must be a physical container is the final one that holds the logbook.

[+The_Incredibles_]

I would think it should be listed as a puzzle, however, your reviewer did publish it as a multi.

 

It's not your fault if people aren't reading the description. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[+suchanana]

idea: hide a container at stage 1

put a LAMINATED paper there with this text :

IF YOU FOUND THIS CONTAINER; YOU DID NOT READ THE CACHE PAGE AND DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT A MULTI IS,

THIS IS NOT THE FINAL CACHE, THIS IS NOT THE LOG BOOK YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

chuckled when i read your simple great solution, and perhaps that would last until someone took it because

they got embarrassed at not reading the cache page...

[+redsox_mark]

 

If I remove the part about needing to know facts about Henry, and there are just two simple arithmetic problems to go from stage 1 to 2 and stage 2 to final, is it then a multi or a puzzle?

 

I'm just trying to get a clear picture on if virtual stages (which would require a calculation) are okay as part of a multi.

 

Yes. I say yes based on experience of what I have seen rather than the guidelines which do not seem so clear in this area.

 

Multis with virtual waypoints (or a mix of physical and virtual waypoints) are very common. Counting things on a virtual stage for example, and doing simple arithmetic to calculate the coordinates for the next stage. These are generally listed as multis. Here is a simple example My first hide

 

What is less clear to me is what is allowed as a field puzzle on a multi; and when it should be a puzzle. I've done quite a few multis which had field puzzles. Generally the cache page on these make it clear that there are field puzzles to solve, but often there is purposely little or no information on the cache page about what they are. That was part of the fun; discovering what the puzzles were in the field. This one for example. Amongst other things you need to solve a puzzle based on a Rubik's cube in the field. Unless the reviewer asked, he/she would not know the nature of the puzzles.

 

What I'm hearing is that if the field puzzle is something which doesn't require specialist knowledge and "most people" could be expected to do it without specific preparation then multi is OK. But if it requires specialist knowledge (e.g. detailed knowledge about Henry) then puzzle is more appropriate. There is of course grey area here as it is a judgement call about what "most people" could do.

 

But I've yet to find anything documented that makes this distinction clear.

 

I guess if in doubt, and there are field puzzles, make it a puzzle cache.

 

Back to this specific example; I also now conclude puzzle cache is probably best. With either a multi or a puzzle cache I always read the cache page. But with a multi I may read it for the first time in the field, and I would not expect to need to do advanced research to solve a puzzle. With the puzzle icon - I may look at it first in the field (if I happen to be nearby); and sometimes I can solve it then and there - but I'm not surprised if it needs some time and research to solve which I can't necessarily do in the field.

[+dprovan]

If I remove the part about needing to know facts about Henry, and there are just two simple arithmetic problems to go from stage 1 to 2 and stage 2 to final, is it then a multi or a puzzle?

I would expect it to be a multi, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it were a puzzle. Eliminate the locks, and I'd be a little more surprised if it were a puzzle, but I still wouldn't think twice about it.

 

To me, the advance knowledge just barely shifts it the other way: I'd expect it to be a puzzle, but I wouldn't really be surprised at all if it were a multi. And I don't feel as strongly about this as I did before I read the description. I originally had the impression that the requirement was knowing who the wives were, not merely their statistical distribution (although, as I think I already displayed, I wouldn't have known even that much).

[+TomToad]

The problem here is that this cache can fit in either category. A multi cache is simply one with multiple stages. The stages themselves can be traditional, virtual, or puzzles themselves. A puzzle cache requires you to solve a puzzle. Since both qualities exist in this cache, either type would be correct. I would personally list it as a puzzle since there is need of prior knowledge, but there is nothing wrong with multi.

 

Now if you want to see something really confusing, check out http://coord.info/GC22BP5 a combination Wherigo, multi, puzzle, and night cache.