+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 A question for the puzzle-minded cachers out there, especially COs. I'm the owner of an as yet unsolved puzzle cache that was published nearly two months ago and have decided to issue a weekly clue towards solving it. This is something I've done in the past without thinking twice about it. However, the current D rating on the cache is 4.5 and it stands to reason that, as clues are released, the D rating will (or should!) decrease to some degree. Since I'd like to maintain the integrity of the cache rating system, I'm thinking of reducing the D rating by 1/2 a star for ever clue released down to a baseline of 3 stars (which I think would be appropriate for the degree of effort it'll take to solve, even with the help of additional clues) or until the cache is found. This way, no-one's stats should be affected. Is this a reasonable approach and have any of you ever done something like this before? Quote Link to comment
+K13 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sounds reasonable to me. I like the idea of leaving the rating alone after the first find. I may borrow the idea on subsequent puzzle hides. Quote Link to comment
+ngrrfan Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 A question for the puzzle-minded cachers out there, especially COs. I'm the owner of an as yet unsolved puzzle cache that was published nearly two months ago and have decided to issue a weekly clue towards solving it. This is something I've done in the past without thinking twice about it. However, the current D rating on the cache is 4.5 and it stands to reason that, as clues are released, the D rating will (or should!) decrease to some degree. Since I'd like to maintain the integrity of the cache rating system, I'm thinking of reducing the D rating by 1/2 a star for ever clue released down to a baseline of 3 stars (which I think would be appropriate for the degree of effort it'll take to solve, even with the help of additional clues) or until the cache is found. This way, no-one's stats should be affected. Is this a reasonable approach and have any of you ever done something like this before? So after the 5th clue it is a 1? Where's the puzzle in that? You might as well just post the final coords at that time. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 A question for the puzzle-minded cachers out there, especially COs. I'm the owner of an as yet unsolved puzzle cache that was published nearly two months ago and have decided to issue a weekly clue towards solving it. This is something I've done in the past without thinking twice about it. However, the current D rating on the cache is 4.5 and it stands to reason that, as clues are released, the D rating will (or should!) decrease to some degree. Since I'd like to maintain the integrity of the cache rating system, I'm thinking of reducing the D rating by 1/2 a star for ever clue released down to a baseline of 3 stars (which I think would be appropriate for the degree of effort it'll take to solve, even with the help of additional clues) or until the cache is found. This way, no-one's stats should be affected. Is this a reasonable approach and have any of you ever done something like this before? So after the 5th clue it is a 1? Where's the puzzle in that? You might as well just post the final coords at that time. No. As I said, the plan would be to stop at 3 stars. Quote Link to comment
+wimseyguy Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I wouldn't make any definitive decisions on how much to change the ratings until the puzzle gets solved a few times and the cache is found. Then make some decisions based on feedback from those finders. Quote Link to comment
+Cardinal Red Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Could a so called member of the puzzle community show me where the difficulty rating plays any part whatsoever in solving a puzzle? I have never seen any DIFFICULTY guide that evens mentions puzzles. Does one actually exist somewhere? I always understood that difficulty involves finding the container. I have only placed a few puzzles. But does this puzzle explain why I might hide a puzzle with a 1.5 difficulty rating, adding the comment that the difficulty component does not take into account solving the puzzle (because I have seen some of this nonsense). And I still expect to receive a log mentioning "I'm not sure this is a 1.5 difficulty puzzle for most people." Who was in charge of hi-jacking the difficulty rating? Can you give it back now? Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 What I've seen is people putting an alternate rating in with the hint, like "[Reduces difficulty to 3:] Rot-13". The puzzles I see leave the official difficulty as if the hints won't be read, even though everyone understands the hints are almost always used. In other words, the difficulty tells the solver how hard the puzzle is in some fundamental sense rather than reflecting how hard it will be for any given cacher to solve the puzzle. That way the difficulty doesn't have to consider who needs which hints since it can't possibly consider other unknowns such as who has what experience with solving such puzzles and who has friends to give them outside hints. If you reduce the difficulty as you add hints, it becomes more of a reward for solving the puzzle. I prefer seeing the difficulty as a characteristic of the puzzle. OK, I've been carefully saying "hint" even though you said "clue", and I admit the situation is different if you're talking modifying the puzzle by adding clues into the description as opposed to adding them as theoretically optional ROT-13 encrypted hints. I would still have the same opinion of that case, but I can understand if someone else thought it was completely different. Naturally, I think it's entirely up to you as the owner. I'm just presenting a different way to look at it in case you like the idea of keeping the difficulty high for your obviously difficult puzzle. Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Could a so called member of the puzzle community show me where the difficulty rating plays any part whatsoever in solving a puzzle? I can't tell you, but in my experience a puzzle cache's difficulty reflects the difficulty of the puzzle with rare exceptions. Furthermore, that makes sense to me because the puzzle cache hides are nearly always D1.5, so it's rare that "subverting" the difficulty causes any problem. Why do you see solving the puzzle in advance as distinctly different than any other step in finding a cache? Aren't difficult physical hides just a different kind of puzzle? Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 I wouldn't make any definitive decisions on how much to change the ratings until the puzzle gets solved a few times and the cache is found. Then make some decisions based on feedback from those finders. Thanks, that approach makes sense and I may yet decide to do so. But what I'm trying to avoid doing is changing the D rating AFTER the cache has been found. In other words, I won't want someone finding and logging this cache thinking it's a 4.5/3 only to see it being downgraded to a 4/3 or less later on. I'm personally not into high-powered geocaching stats and finding every conceivable combination of D/T rating and the like but I realize that there are other folks in my community who are and I'm trying to be a good citizen here. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Could a so called member of the puzzle community show me where the difficulty rating plays any part whatsoever in solving a puzzle? I have never seen any DIFFICULTY guide that evens mentions puzzles. Does one actually exist somewhere? I always understood that difficulty involves finding the container. I have only placed a few puzzles. But does this puzzle explain why I might hide a puzzle with a 1.5 difficulty rating, adding the comment that the difficulty component does not take into account solving the puzzle (because I have seen some of this nonsense). And I still expect to receive a log mentioning "I'm not sure this is a 1.5 difficulty puzzle for most people." Who was in charge of hi-jacking the difficulty rating? Can you give it back now? Yes, as far as I know, there isn't an official rating system purely for puzzle caches so most puzzle cache creators just try to make do with the one currently available. Since you usually can't find the container without solving the puzzle, an attempt is made to factor the puzzle difficulty into the overall difficulty rating. My understanding is that this is pretty much the norm but if there's a better way of doing this, I'd be glad to know. Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 A question for the puzzle-minded cachers out there, especially COs. I'm the owner of an as yet unsolved puzzle cache that was published nearly two months ago and have decided to issue a weekly clue towards solving it. This is something I've done in the past without thinking twice about it. However, the current D rating on the cache is 4.5 and it stands to reason that, as clues are released, the D rating will (or should!) decrease to some degree. Since I'd like to maintain the integrity of the cache rating system, I'm thinking of reducing the D rating by 1/2 a star for ever clue released down to a baseline of 3 stars (which I think would be appropriate for the degree of effort it'll take to solve, even with the help of additional clues) or until the cache is found. This way, no-one's stats should be affected. Is this a reasonable approach and have any of you ever done something like this before? I can solve any puzzle instantly if I look at the solution in the back of the book. That doesn't change the difficulty of the puzzle. Consider that there may be some that still decide to solve your puzzle without the additional hints. Besides, even with no hints, once it's solved you have no control over people giving hints, or the outright coordinates to their friends. I say if it's a 4.5 puzzle, leave it a 4.5 puzzle. Just my opinion, of course. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 What I've seen is people putting an alternate rating in with the hint, like "[Reduces difficulty to 3:] Rot-13". The puzzles I see leave the official difficulty as if the hints won't be read, even though everyone understands the hints are almost always used. In other words, the difficulty tells the solver how hard the puzzle is in some fundamental sense rather than reflecting how hard it will be for any given cacher to solve the puzzle. That way the difficulty doesn't have to consider who needs which hints since it can't possibly consider other unknowns such as who has what experience with solving such puzzles and who has friends to give them outside hints. If you reduce the difficulty as you add hints, it becomes more of a reward for solving the puzzle. I prefer seeing the difficulty as a characteristic of the puzzle. OK, I've been carefully saying "hint" even though you said "clue", and I admit the situation is different if you're talking modifying the puzzle by adding clues into the description as opposed to adding them as theoretically optional ROT-13 encrypted hints. I would still have the same opinion of that case, but I can understand if someone else thought it was completely different. Naturally, I think it's entirely up to you as the owner. I'm just presenting a different way to look at it in case you like the idea of keeping the difficulty high for your obviously difficult puzzle. Thanks, I appreciate the points you've made. There's no easy answer but I can't see how it makes sense to publish a puzzle cache with a high difficulty rating then issue a bunch of hints (I use "hint" and "clue" interchangeably) that render the high D rating meaningless. I'm actually not that concerned with maintaining the high difficulty rating. After an initial die-off in interest, based on e-mails I've received there's been a resurgence of interest in the cache since I announced that I'd be issuing weekly hints. I think it's fair to say that most puzzle cache owners (myself included) relish any kind of attention their creation receives since it tends to fall away fairly quickly after the FTF race is over! Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Could a so called member of the puzzle community show me where the difficulty rating plays any part whatsoever in solving a puzzle? I have never seen any DIFFICULTY guide that evens mentions puzzles. Does one actually exist somewhere? I always understood that difficulty involves finding the container. I have only placed a few puzzles. But does this puzzle explain why I might hide a puzzle with a 1.5 difficulty rating, adding the comment that the difficulty component does not take into account solving the puzzle (because I have seen some of this nonsense). And I still expect to receive a log mentioning "I'm not sure this is a 1.5 difficulty puzzle for most people." Who was in charge of hi-jacking the difficulty rating? Can you give it back now? Theoretically, you can't find the container without the coordinates of it's location. Since getting the coordinates is part of finding the container, the difficulty of getting those coordinates, thus the difficulty of solving the puzzle should be considered in the rating. Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I say if it's a 4.5 puzzle, leave it a 4.5 puzzle. Just my opinion, of course. I tend to agree with this. I know the OP wants to increase activity as time passes, but I'm not much on changing caches. The OP states that it wouldn't change after the first find, but I have 20 or so solved puzzles in a list that I have yet to find. I wouldn't care if the D changed before I get to those areas to make a find (probably wouldn't notice), but reality is, I may have solved it w/o the new clues and the CO is not aware. Getting too cute w/ a cache kind of takes away from it's intended place in GC history...just an opinion. Quote Link to comment
+FMT15 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I believe the rating should stay what it originally is placed as. What if someone solves it before there are any hints, when it is rated a 5 star.. But can't get to the location to log it for a week and only gets a 3 star for his effort? Quote Link to comment
GOF and Bacall Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I think the ratings should accurately, as close as possible, represent the difficulty of the cache. If something changes that effects that difficulty the ratings should be changed to match. The ratings are not there to help fill out the grid for challenges. They are there to inform people how difficult the cache is to approach and to find. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 I believe the rating should stay what it originally is placed as. What if someone solves it before there are any hints, when it is rated a 5 star.. But can't get to the location to log it for a week and only gets a 3 star for his effort? The last two posts raise a similar but valid point. However, the plan would be to stop issuing hints (or maybe give just one more) once the puzzle is solved. The co-ordinate checker would alert me as to when that's happened. If someone solved the puzzle but decided not to confirm it using the co-ord checker, well, tough! Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I believe the rating should stay what it originally is placed as. What if someone solves it before there are any hints, when it is rated a 5 star.. But can't get to the location to log it for a week and only gets a 3 star for his effort? The last two posts raise a similar but valid point. However, the plan would be to stop issuing hints (or maybe give just one more) once the puzzle is solved. The co-ordinate checker would alert me as to when that's happened. If someone solved the puzzle but decided not to confirm it using the co-ord checker, well, tough! Hadn't thought of that as I have never created a puzzle cache. Does it tell you who solved it? You would probably be sending me an e-mail to find it already. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 I believe the rating should stay what it originally is placed as. What if someone solves it before there are any hints, when it is rated a 5 star.. But can't get to the location to log it for a week and only gets a 3 star for his effort? The last two posts raise a similar but valid point. However, the plan would be to stop issuing hints (or maybe give just one more) once the puzzle is solved. The co-ordinate checker would alert me as to when that's happened. If someone solved the puzzle but decided not to confirm it using the co-ord checker, well, tough! Hadn't thought of that as I have never created a puzzle cache. Does it tell you who solved it? You would probably be sending me an e-mail to find it already. The co-ord checker I use (GeoCheck) keeps track of solution attempts and gives the IP code but not the specific identity of the person submitting. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I'm not much of a puzzle cacher, but I have a couple. Personally I would devise the puzzle I wanted to have, rate it fairly, include the hints and clues I felt were warranted, and leave it be. If it took six months before someone figured it out I might increase the difficulty. If a bunch of cachers figured it out right away (and told me it was over-rated) then I would reduce the difficulty. If I wanted to have an easy puzzle, I would make it easy from the beginning. That being said, I guess it would be fair as long as the difficulty became fixed once a find was claimed. Quote Link to comment
+RobDJr Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Could a so called member of the puzzle community show me where the difficulty rating plays any part whatsoever in solving a puzzle? I have never seen any DIFFICULTY guide that evens mentions puzzles. Does one actually exist somewhere? I always understood that difficulty involves finding the container. I have only placed a few puzzles. But does this puzzle explain why I might hide a puzzle with a 1.5 difficulty rating, adding the comment that the difficulty component does not take into account solving the puzzle (because I have seen some of this nonsense). And I still expect to receive a log mentioning "I'm not sure this is a 1.5 difficulty puzzle for most people." Who was in charge of hi-jacking the difficulty rating? Can you give it back now? With rare exceptions, most puzzle caches I've found reflect the difficulty of the puzzle, and I very much prefer the difficulty rating to reflect the overall difficulty of a cache (including puzzle), not merely the hide. After all, a one-star wheelchair-accessible hide is still going to be very hard to find if the coordinates are hidden behind a difficult cipher, and to be honest I'd feel a at least a small amount of angst at working that hard to get a one star difficulty find. And I'd feel a lot of angst if I picked an "easy" 1.5 star puzzle on a day I wanted something easy and wound up tangling with a monster that would require hours of effort. There is no hi-jacking involved, just honestly showing how much effort one can expect to put into finding a particular cache from start to finish, not merely from the moment you walk out the door. I have no problem with the cache difficulty rating changing prior to the first find, but would mostly prefer it not to change if that change is dependent on hints. If you want to change the difficulty I'd prefer seeing the puzzle made easier or more obvious in the cache page rather than through the hints. That's just my opinion as someone who uses hints as a last resort. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 I have no problem with the cache difficulty rating changing prior to the first find, but would mostly prefer it not to change if that change is dependent on hints. If you want to change the difficulty I'd prefer seeing the puzzle made easier or more obvious in the cache page rather than through the hints. That's just my opinion as someone who uses hints as a last resort. Yes, but it's a lot easier to issue a hint rather than adjust the puzzle itself once it's been published. Quote Link to comment
+RobDJr Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I have no problem with the cache difficulty rating changing prior to the first find, but would mostly prefer it not to change if that change is dependent on hints. If you want to change the difficulty I'd prefer seeing the puzzle made easier or more obvious in the cache page rather than through the hints. That's just my opinion as someone who uses hints as a last resort. Yes, but it's a lot easier to issue a hint rather than adjust the puzzle itself once it's been published. You're right, and that's mostly why I said I don't have a problem with it. The rest is just a personal preference and either way I'd probably still go for the cache. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Dunno. My cache is set when I have it published. I've never considered putting out addition hints if it's not found quickly. I've had at least one that went three months for the FTF. Got one that's approaching three months with no find. Solve it and find it. Don't solve it and don't find it. My puzzle is set. I'm not changing it if it takes a long while for a find. I guess I don't understand why you would want to. I have a lot of caches that don't get found very often, whether due to a long hike or a tough puzzle, or a combination of the two. My caches are set. I don't go around teasing people by adding hints. And don't understand why you would want to. Four finds since 8/2009? Oh, well. It's a tough puzzle. That's the way I set it out, and that's the way it will remain. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Don't listen to Harry. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Dunno. My cache is set when I have it published. I've never considered putting out addition hints if it's not found quickly. I've had at least one that went three months for the FTF. Got one that's approaching three months with no find. Solve it and find it. Don't solve it and don't find it. My puzzle is set. I'm not changing it if it takes a long while for a find. I guess I don't understand why you would want to. I have a lot of caches that don't get found very often, whether due to a long hike or a tough puzzle, or a combination of the two. My caches are set. I don't go around teasing people by adding hints. And don't understand why you would want to. Four finds since 8/2009? Oh, well. It's a tough puzzle. That's the way I set it out, and that's the way it will remain. I share your sentiments to some degree and, like you, I'm maintaining a couple of puzzle caches that haven't been found in more than two years. I was actually planning on leaving this puzzle alone until someone figured it out eventually but I know for a fact that the few avid puzzle solvers in my area are totally stumped and interest has waned. In fact, someone is probably more likely to stumble upon the container by accident (and it's very well hidden, I assure you) rather than by solving the puzzle. With the promise of a hint or two, interest in the puzzle has picked up and I've been receiving queries from a number of newer cachers which I consider to be a positive sign. As a puzzle CO, it's a lot more satisfying knowing that people are actively trying to solve your puzzle rather than ignoring it completely. Quote Link to comment
+terratin Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 However, the plan would be to stop issuing hints (or maybe give just one more) once the puzzle is solved. The co-ordinate checker would alert me as to when that's happened. If someone solved the puzzle but decided not to confirm it using the co-ord checker, well, tough! This puzzle (6 Ord) used a similar sliding scale to reduce the D rating with each new hint. When I found it, it was at D4.5, but the CO kept on posting hints and decreasing the difficulty. And on hindsight it does make sense: Without giving away too much, the puzzle relies on local knowledge in the sense that local knowledge actually hampers seeing the solution. Not being native to the area myself, I didn't have that 'block' and found it really easy to crack. But if the CO would have stopped posting hints, my guess is most locals just won't get it. So sometimes it makes sense to continue posting hints, even if the puzzle is already solved. Cheers, Peter Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Dunno. My cache is set when I have it published. I've never considered putting out addition hints if it's not found quickly. I've had at least one that went three months for the FTF. Got one that's approaching three months with no find. Solve it and find it. Don't solve it and don't find it. My puzzle is set. I'm not changing it if it takes a long while for a find. I guess I don't understand why you would want to. I have a lot of caches that don't get found very often, whether due to a long hike or a tough puzzle, or a combination of the two. My caches are set. I don't go around teasing people by adding hints. And don't understand why you would want to. Four finds since 8/2009? Oh, well. It's a tough puzzle. That's the way I set it out, and that's the way it will remain. I share your sentiments to some degree and, like you, I'm maintaining a couple of puzzle caches that haven't been found in more than two years. I was actually planning on leaving this puzzle alone until someone figured it out eventually but I know for a fact that the few avid puzzle solvers in my area are totally stumped and interest has waned. In fact, someone is probably more likely to stumble upon the container by accident (and it's very well hidden, I assure you) rather than by solving the puzzle. With the promise of a hint or two, interest in the puzzle has picked up and I've been receiving queries from a number of newer cachers which I consider to be a positive sign. As a puzzle CO, it's a lot more satisfying knowing that people are actively trying to solve your puzzle rather than ignoring it completely. I admit that I am local to Harry Dolphin and have been paying attention and actually solving some of his puzzles. But he tends to understate the difficulty of some of his very clever and creative caches, so if anything the difficulty should rise the fewer the finders. Quote Link to comment
+JamGuys Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 However, the plan would be to stop issuing hints (or maybe give just one more) once the puzzle is solved. The co-ordinate checker would alert me as to when that's happened. If someone solved the puzzle but decided not to confirm it using the co-ord checker, well, tough! This puzzle (6 Ord) used a similar sliding scale to reduce the D rating with each new hint. When I found it, it was at D4.5, but the CO kept on posting hints and decreasing the difficulty. And on hindsight it does make sense: Without giving away too much, the puzzle relies on local knowledge in the sense that local knowledge actually hampers seeing the solution. Not being native to the area myself, I didn't have that 'block' and found it really easy to crack. But if the CO would have stopped posting hints, my guess is most locals just won't get it. So sometimes it makes sense to continue posting hints, even if the puzzle is already solved. Cheers, Peter Thanks, Peter, this is very similar to what I had in mind even if it's coming from far-off Denmark! The only difference though is that I probably won't continue to lower the D rating after the cache has been found (even if I do add an extra hint or two) because that doesn't quite seem fair to those who would have found it at a higher degree of difficulty. Quote Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.