FTF Hogs

[+The_Incredibles_]

Selectively 'awarding' the FTF based on your personal perception of deservedness?

 

Perception has nothing to do with it. Either someone's a FTF hound or they're not. BTW, the above was a joke.

 

So define a FTF hound so I can decide if I am one or not.

 

OK.

 

#1 How many FTFs do you have in total?

#2 When you get a new cache notification within 5km of your house, how often do you go out?

[+Roman!]

I have 150 something, not exactly sure, just deleted my stats but 39 I found at the island mega, they happened to come out on our route planned for the day (they were actually published the night before), another 25 were 2 trails that were published as I was heading out caching anyways.

 

Of the remaining FTFs I'd say over half have been a moderate to significant hike.

 

As for number 2, less than half because if they are 5 km south then I'd have to cross a nasty bridge and odds are ill be beat, if its 5km north then it'll be a substantial hike.

 

But to give you an answer, if it doesn't involve a bridge or a hike and I'm at home then I'd say 50% of the time.

 

So am I an FTF hog and more importantly why or why not?

Edited November 25, 2012 by Roman!

[+The_Incredibles_]

I have 150 something, not exactly sure, just deleted my stats but 39 I found at the island mega, they happened to come out on our route planned for the day (they were actually published the night before), another 25 were 2 trails that were published as I was heading out caching anyways.

 

Of the remaining FTFs I'd say over half have been a moderate to significant hike.

 

As for number 2, less than half because if they are 5 km south then I'd have to cross a nasty bridge and odds are ill be beat, if its 5km north then it'll be a substantial hike.

 

But to give you an answer, if it doesn't involve a bridge or a hike and I'm at home then I'd say 50% of the time.

 

So am I an FTF hog and more importantly why or why not?

 

Yep, FTF hound. But not a hog. In my books.

 

A FTF hound is someone who goes out for a FTF a high percentage of the time. Is likely to keep track of FTFs and post them on their profile page. A FTF hog would be someone who drives over little old ladies on the way to GZ and goes out 99% of the time, no matter where in town the cache is.

 

In my area, it's pretty easy to tell who's a FTF hound and who's not. The couple I met the other night with almost 3000 finds and only 1 FTF - not FTF hounds.

Edited November 25, 2012 by The_Incredibles_

[+Roman!]

I have 150 something, not exactly sure, just deleted my stats but 39 I found at the island mega, they happened to come out on our route planned for the day (they were actually published the night before), another 25 were 2 trails that were published as I was heading out caching anyways.

 

Of the remaining FTFs I'd say over half have been a moderate to significant hike.

 

As for number 2, less than half because if they are 5 km south then I'd have to cross a nasty bridge and odds are ill be beat, if its 5km north then it'll be a substantial hike.

 

But to give you an answer, if it doesn't involve a bridge or a hike and I'm at home then I'd say 50% of the time.

 

So am I an FTF hog and more importantly why or why not?

 

Yep, FTF hound. But not a hog. In my books.

 

A FTF hound is someone who goes out for a FTF a high percentage of the time and is really enthusiastic. Likely to keep track of FTFs and post them on their profile page. A FTF hog would be someone who drives over little old ladies on the way to GZ and goes out 99% of the time, no matter where in town the cache is.

 

In my area, it's pretty easy to tell who's a FTF hound and who's not. The couple I met the other night with almost 3000 finds and only 1 FTF - not FTF hounds.

 

If I'm home and not busy and it doesn't involve a hike or a bridge I get to maybe 10% of the caches published withing 5km of my house, you call that a high percentage?

Edited November 25, 2012 by Roman!

[+The_Incredibles_]

I have 150 something, not exactly sure, just deleted my stats but 39 I found at the island mega, they happened to come out on our route planned for the day (they were actually published the night before), another 25 were 2 trails that were published as I was heading out caching anyways.

 

Of the remaining FTFs I'd say over half have been a moderate to significant hike.

 

As for number 2, less than half because if they are 5 km south then I'd have to cross a nasty bridge and odds are ill be beat, if its 5km north then it'll be a substantial hike.

 

But to give you an answer, if it doesn't involve a bridge or a hike and I'm at home then I'd say 50% of the time.

 

So am I an FTF hog and more importantly why or why not?

 

Yep, FTF hound. But not a hog. In my books.

 

A FTF hound is someone who goes out for a FTF a high percentage of the time and is really enthusiastic. Likely to keep track of FTFs and post them on their profile page. A FTF hog would be someone who drives over little old ladies on the way to GZ and goes out 99% of the time, no matter where in town the cache is.

 

In my area, it's pretty easy to tell who's a FTF hound and who's not. The couple I met the other night with almost 3000 finds and only 1 FTF - not FTF hounds.

 

If I'm home and not busy and it doesn't involve a hike or a bridge I get to maybe 10% of the caches published withing 5km of my house, you call that a high percentage?

 

10%, no.

[+Roman!]

I have 150 something, not exactly sure, just deleted my stats but 39 I found at the island mega, they happened to come out on our route planned for the day (they were actually published the night before), another 25 were 2 trails that were published as I was heading out caching anyways.

 

Of the remaining FTFs I'd say over half have been a moderate to significant hike.

 

As for number 2, less than half because if they are 5 km south then I'd have to cross a nasty bridge and odds are ill be beat, if its 5km north then it'll be a substantial hike.

 

But to give you an answer, if it doesn't involve a bridge or a hike and I'm at home then I'd say 50% of the time.

 

So am I an FTF hog and more importantly why or why not?

 

Yep, FTF hound. But not a hog. In my books.

 

A FTF hound is someone who goes out for a FTF a high percentage of the time and is really enthusiastic. Likely to keep track of FTFs and post them on their profile page. A FTF hog would be someone who drives over little old ladies on the way to GZ and goes out 99% of the time, no matter where in town the cache is.

 

In my area, it's pretty easy to tell who's a FTF hound and who's not. The couple I met the other night with almost 3000 finds and only 1 FTF - not FTF hounds.

 

If I'm home and not busy and it doesn't involve a hike or a bridge I get to maybe 10% of the caches published withing 5km of my house, you call that a high percentage?

 

10%, no.

 

So since I don't get out to a high percentage of new caches within 5km of my house and I don't have my FTFs listed on my profile that means I'm not a FTF hound then, right?

[+The_Incredibles_]

So since I don't get out to a high percentage of new caches within 5km of my house and I don't have my FTFs listed on my profile that means I'm not a FTF hound then, right?

 

I've given you my opinion as to what a FTF hound and whether you are one or not. You can read my opinions again, carefully, then take it or leave it. No offense, but you kind of remind me of my kids who ask my opinion then argue with me about it.

Edited November 25, 2012 by The_Incredibles_

[+Roman!]

Well, you called me something by your own definition I'm not.

[+Ma & Pa]

I've given you my opinion as to what a FTF hound and whether you are one or not. You can read my opinions again, carefully, then take it or leave it. No offense, but you kind of remind me of my kids who ask my opinion then argue with me about it.

 

LOL

 

They need to ask it in order to have something to argue about.

 

Makes sense to me.

[+Roman!]

I've given you my opinion as to what a FTF hound and whether you are one or not. You can read my opinions again, carefully, then take it or leave it. No offense, but you kind of remind me of my kids who ask my opinion then argue with me about it.

 

LOL

 

They need to ask it in order to have something to argue about.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Maybe it's ok for you when you get called something to sit back and take it but I like to question things.

 

Also, instead of taking my posts out of context you might want to google the definition of a rhetorical question.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Roman!

[+Don_J]

So since I don't get out to a high percentage of new caches within 5km of my house and I don't have my FTFs listed on my profile that means I'm not a FTF hound then, right?

 

I've given you my opinion as to what a FTF hound and whether you are one or not. You can read my opinions again, carefully, then take it or leave it. No offense, but you kind of remind me of my kids who ask my opinion then argue with me about it.

 

So, where do I fit in? I do have my FTFs listed in my profile, yet If a new, easy cache popped up right now less than a mile from home, I wouldn't even consider going after it. Once my boots are off, so is the game.

[+Roman!]

So since I don't get out to a high percentage of new caches within 5km of my house and I don't have my FTFs listed on my profile that means I'm not a FTF hound then, right?

 

I've given you my opinion as to what a FTF hound and whether you are one or not. You can read my opinions again, carefully, then take it or leave it. No offense, but you kind of remind me of my kids who ask my opinion then argue with me about it.

 

So, where do I fit in? I do have my FTFs listed in my profile, yet If a new, easy cache popped up right now less than a mile from home, I wouldn't even consider going after it. Once my boots are off, so is the game.

 

Well, since I meet none of the ctiteria and I'm a hound you then must be a FTF hog.

[Mr.Yuck]

Selectively 'awarding' the FTF based on your personal perception of deservedness?

 

Perception has nothing to do with it. Either someone's a FTF hound or they're not. BTW, the above was a joke.

 

So define a FTF hound so I can decide if I am one or not.

 

To (sort of) quote Jeff Foxworthy, "If you have GSAK HTML output in your profile that lists your FTF's, you might just be a FTF hound". And what were you doing in Illinois?

 

That's a relief to know I'm not one.

 

To answer your other question I did the virtual at the airport while transferring planes on my way to Florida.

 

Canadians friggin' love Florida. They love Cuba too, but that's something 300,000,000 of us Americans don't know about, we're not allowed to go there. Just trying to lighten up the mood around here.

[+Roman!]

Selectively 'awarding' the FTF based on your personal perception of deservedness?

 

Perception has nothing to do with it. Either someone's a FTF hound or they're not. BTW, the above was a joke.

 

So define a FTF hound so I can decide if I am one or not.

 

To (sort of) quote Jeff Foxworthy, "If you have GSAK HTML output in your profile that lists your FTF's, you might just be a FTF hound". And what were you doing in Illinois?

 

That's a relief to know I'm not one.

 

To answer your other question I did the virtual at the airport while transferring planes on my way to Florida.

 

Canadians friggin' love Florida. They love Cuba too, but that's something 300,000,000 of us Americans don't know about, we're not allowed to go there. Just trying to lighten up the mood around here.

 

Never been to Cuba and had to go to Florida due to work and oddly enough I was just trying to lighten up the mood to, some people just seem a bit uptight.

[Mr.Yuck]

 

Canadians friggin' love Florida. They love Cuba too, but that's something 300,000,000 of us Americans don't know about, we're not allowed to go there. Just trying to lighten up the mood around here.

 

Never been to Cuba and had to go to Florida due to work and oddly enough I was just trying to lighten up the mood to, some people just seem a bit uptight.

 

I wish I had a job that had business to do in Florida. I'm lucky if they send me to Pennsylvania every couple of years. And the one time, it was like 3 degrees out. Oh well, FTF threads can be controversial. Rarely they are not.

[+Roman!]

 

Canadians friggin' love Florida. They love Cuba too, but that's something 300,000,000 of us Americans don't know about, we're not allowed to go there. Just trying to lighten up the mood around here.

 

Never been to Cuba and had to go to Florida due to work and oddly enough I was just trying to lighten up the mood to, some people just seem a bit uptight.

 

I wish I had a job that had business to do in Florida. I'm lucky if they send me to Pennsylvania every couple of years. And the one time, it was like 3 degrees out. Oh well, FTF threads can be controversial. Rarely they are not.

 

We travel a few times a year but mostly to Toronto, Florida was a nice bonus except I hate flying (except when I'm in my paraglider). Coming into Chicago and leaving, it got quite interesting.

I was glad we flew through Phoenix on the way back but there was no virtual in that airport.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Roman!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

Canadians friggin' love Florida. They love Cuba too, but that's something 300,000,000 of us Americans don't know about, we're not allowed to go there. Just trying to lighten up the mood around here.

 

Never been to Cuba and had to go to Florida due to work and oddly enough I was just trying to lighten up the mood to, some people just seem a bit uptight.

 

I wish I had a job that had business to do in Florida. I'm lucky if they send me to Pennsylvania every couple of years. And the one time, it was like 3 degrees out. Oh well, FTF threads can be controversial. Rarely they are not.

 

I've been to Florida twice for business, and three times for pleasure but only once since I started geocaching. Fortunately, even though the PA border is only about 35 miles away I haven't traveled there on business with my current job. I've never been to Cuba or any of the other Caribbean islands but I have been to Costa Rica for business. 2012 has been a good travel for business and do some geocaching year for me with visits to Colorado, Switzerland, Tanzania, Malaysia, Singapore, and Japan. I have no immediate travel plans but there a possibility of a grant funded project that could start early next year that might involve travel to Washington State, Washington Dc, and South Africa. Another potential project, less likely to happen, could take me to India.

[+Totem Clan]

The worst part of being an FTF hound/hog is waiting for the new listings.

 

[face pressed to the screen trying to see the reviewer at work]

Publish, publish, publish....

 

 

[+Semmels123]

Selectively 'awarding' the FTF based on your personal perception of deservedness?

 

Perception has nothing to do with it. Either someone's a FTF hound or they're not. BTW, the above was a joke.

 

So define a FTF hound so I can decide if I am one or not.

 

OK.

 

#1 How many FTFs do you have in total?

#2 When you get a new cache notification within 5km of your house, how often do you go out?

 

Yes I am a FTF hound.

[+Roman!]

The worst part of being an FTF hound/hog is waiting for the new listings.

 

[face pressed to the screen trying to see the reviewer at work]

Publish, publish, publish....

 

 

 

In the last 2 weeks there have been barely any new caches publish and none I had an opportunity to get too but my nose is a lot flatter now.

[+Totem Clan]

The worst part of being an FTF hound/hog is waiting for the new listings.

 

[face pressed to the screen trying to see the reviewer at work]

Publish, publish, publish....

 

 

 

In the last 2 weeks there have been barely any new caches publish and none I had an opportunity to get too but my nose is a lot flatter now.

My caching buddy and have manage 4 in the past 3 days. Having new caches 3 days in row that close by is that common here.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

The worst part of being an FTF hound/hog is waiting for the new listings.

 

[face pressed to the screen trying to see the reviewer at work]

Publish, publish, publish....

 

 

 

I'm not a hound nor a hog but there was a time span of about 4 months a couple of years ago when there were only 5-6 caches published within 20 miles of where I live. There have been only 25 new caches published within 20 miles of me in the past 6 months and 9 of them are puzzle/unknown caches. It would be pretty difficult to meet some arbitrary minimum number of FTFs to be considered a FTF hound/hog when there are only a handful of new caches published each month nearby.

[+Team GlacierGlider]

It sounds to me like half would call me an FTF hound and half would not, seems more like democrat vs republican. Luckily I could give a care either way. If I can get the cache before anyone else and I am able to get there then so be it, I will go and try for FTF. If I get FTF I will probably brag about it, that's just my thing. If I don't get FTF, oh well at least I can sign my name on the log sheet and do not have to go back for it. I don't print my FTF list on my profile, though I do bookmark each one.

 

I am pretty certain that someone will take offense to this post, as there is always someone. That"s not my problem, I don't care. The thing that I care about is the veteran cachers whining because they 1) Do not get FTF on one of my hides because it to difficult to find or 2) Bad mouth me because they don't like my affinity for micros and can't find it or 3) Do all of the above and talk crap about me behind my back because I place micros in the woods. Then they will talk crap some more when they turn around and place a micro themselves and have to eat there own words because I can find there Micro in the woods and get FTF to boot. Just saying.

[+dprovan]

It sounds to me like half would call me an FTF hound and half would not, seems more like democrat vs republican. Luckily I could give a care either way. If I can get the cache before anyone else and I am able to get there then so be it, I will go and try for FTF. If I get FTF I will probably brag about it, that's just my thing.

Yes, that sounds like an FTF hound, and I'm not sure who you're thinking of that would not call you an FTF hound. The division, I think, is between people that think people shouldn't be FTF hounds. I'd definitely call you an FTF hound, but I wouldn't be trying to insult you or anything. Have at!

 

Furthermore, if you got more than half of the FTFs in your area, I'd call you an FTF hog. And I still wouldn't be trying to insult you.

 

I am pretty certain that someone will take offense to this post, as there is always someone. That"s not my problem, I don't care. The thing that I care about is the veteran cachers whining because they 1) Do not get FTF on one of my hides because it to difficult to find or 2) Bad mouth me because they don't like my affinity for micros and can't find it or 3) Do all of the above and talk crap about me behind my back because I place micros in the woods. Then they will talk crap some more when they turn around and place a micro themselves and have to eat there own words because I can find there Micro in the woods and get FTF to boot. Just saying.

When I dish stuff like that, it's just friendly ribbing. So whenever I read something like that, I assume they're doing the same even if they aren't. And, for sure, if they razzed me (or anyone else) for something and then turned around and did it themselves, I'd raz the heck out of them. And I'd assume they're laughing right along with me.

 

Now, as it happens, I've never ever run into someone that took something like that seriously, but if I did, well, then, that would be the most important time to pretend I thought it was friendly ribbing even if I thought otherwise.

 

In that spirit: Hey! Stop being such an FTF hound!

[+Totem Clan]

Am I an FTF hog?

 

Let me start by saying, I live in a rural area. The closest town of any size is 25 miles away, so my 'home area' is fairly big.

Anyway. my caching partner and I will go out as soon as any cache is published within that rough 25 mile range. Anything beyond that, up to about 50 miles or so, we will wait till morning and then go.

I do keep track of my FTFs for myself in GSAK. I often don't even mention the FTF in the online log unless it is somehow part of the story of the hunt. Like the time we were met by a local cop who happens to also be a cacher. He was coming on duty and had to get try for the cache before work.

Normally we get the FTFs for every cache in this corner of the state not because we rush out so fast for them but just because we have more of a chance go anytime, so we can go while others are working or whatever.

Often our early morning FTF runs turn into day-long caching trips.

[+dprovan]

Anyway. my caching partner and I will go out as soon as any cache is published within that rough 25 mile range.

Yes, you are an FTF hog.

 

Anything beyond that, up to about 50 miles or so, we will wait till morning and then go.

Ooooh! A First Class FTF hog!

 

Normally we get the FTFs for every cache in this corner of the state not because we rush out so fast for them but just because we have more of a chance go anytime, so we can go while others are working or whatever.

I like the way you say that: it's not our fault we get all the FTFs, it's just that we like to drop everything and rush out to get them as soon as we get the notification...and we can!

 

Often our early morning FTF runs turn into day-long caching trips.

Sounds like you're having fun. Keep it up!

[+Mudfrog]

I have 150 something, not exactly sure, just deleted my stats but 39 I found at the island mega, they happened to come out on our route planned for the day (they were actually published the night before), another 25 were 2 trails that were published as I was heading out caching anyways.

 

Of the remaining FTFs I'd say over half have been a moderate to significant hike.

 

As for number 2, less than half because if they are 5 km south then I'd have to cross a nasty bridge and odds are ill be beat, if its 5km north then it'll be a substantial hike.

 

But to give you an answer, if it doesn't involve a bridge or a hike and I'm at home then I'd say 50% of the time.

 

So am I an FTF hog and more importantly why or why not?

 

Yep, FTF hound. But not a hog. In my books.

 

A FTF hound is someone who goes out for a FTF a high percentage of the time. Is likely to keep track of FTFs and post them on their profile page. A FTF hog would be someone who drives over little old ladies on the way to GZ and goes out 99% of the time, no matter where in town the cache is.

 

In my area, it's pretty easy to tell who's a FTF hound and who's not. The couple I met the other night with almost 3000 finds and only 1 FTF - not FTF hounds.

 

OK, so now that we know the criteria, it's sounding more and more like there's hardly any FTF hogs out there. I have met a ton of cachers and as far as i know, none of them have driven over anyone to get to a cache first.

 

If you're not breaking any ordinances/laws or running over people, then why the angst towards those who put up the ftf effort. Oh i forgot, some people are entitled.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If you're not breaking any ordinances/laws or running over people, then why the angst towards those who put up the ftf effort. Oh i forgot, some people are entitled.

 

Yes, some people *are* entitled....to have an opinion about the FTF game. I have no angst toward people that play the FTF game, but the behavior some of them have exhibited here has led me to believe that the FTF aspect I not something I'm interesting in playing or, even encouraging.

 

Frankly, I'm not convinced that some FTF hounds wouldn't have any qualms about breaking any ordinances/laws if it meant beating someone else to the cache.

[+dprovan]

If you're not breaking any ordinances/laws or running over people, then why the angst towards those who put up the ftf effort. Oh i forgot, some people are entitled.

Yes, some people *are* entitled....to have an opinion about the FTF game. I have no angst toward people that play the FTF game, but the behavior some of them have exhibited here has led me to believe that the FTF aspect I not something I'm interesting in playing or, even encouraging.

 

Frankly, I'm not convinced that some FTF hounds wouldn't have any qualms about breaking any ordinances/laws if it meant beating someone else to the cache.

My problem with this thinking is that it makes you sound as if you'd have no problem with people breaking laws if they were just making a normal find. Yes, people behave badly. I don't see any justification for blaming it on the game they're playing instead of blaming it on them.

[+Mudfrog]

If you're not breaking any ordinances/laws or running over people, then why the angst towards those who put up the ftf effort. Oh i forgot, some people are entitled.

 

Yes, some people *are* entitled....to have an opinion about the FTF game. I have no angst toward people that play the FTF game, but the behavior some of them have exhibited here has led me to believe that the FTF aspect I not something I'm interesting in playing or, even encouraging.

 

Frankly, I'm not convinced that some FTF hounds wouldn't have any qualms about breaking any ordinances/laws if it meant beating someone else to the cache.

 

Actually, my first thought would be that you were probably right. But from my experience, and i've been caching for a pretty good while now, i've never seen it happen. Now, i have witnessed seasoned cachers trespass and break traffic laws to get caches that had already been found.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If you're not breaking any ordinances/laws or running over people, then why the angst towards those who put up the ftf effort. Oh i forgot, some people are entitled.

Yes, some people *are* entitled....to have an opinion about the FTF game. I have no angst toward people that play the FTF game, but the behavior some of them have exhibited here has led me to believe that the FTF aspect I not something I'm interesting in playing or, even encouraging.

 

Frankly, I'm not convinced that some FTF hounds wouldn't have any qualms about breaking any ordinances/laws if it meant beating someone else to the cache.

My problem with this thinking is that it makes you sound as if you'd have no problem with people breaking laws if they were just making a normal find.

 

I have no idea how you got that from my post. I absolutely have a problem with people breaking the law when attempting to hide or find any cache. Not only does it have the potential to give geocaching a black eye, possibly influencing land managers decision to allow permission for caches to be placed, some violations can be me and any other innocent bystander in danger.

 

Yes, people behave badly. I don't see any justification for blaming it on the game they're playing instead of blaming it on them.

 

The justification is simply that a FTF race, by definition, provides an inherent incentive to get to the cache before anyone else. Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

[+dprovan]

Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

Exactly. The problem is the behavior. Don't blame the FTF game for people thinking the extra incentive justifies bad behavior. You might as well blame geocaching in general for that same bad behavior in non-FTF cases.

 

When you criticize FTF hunting for crimes but don't similarly blame normal caching, I can logically conclude that that means you don't think breaking the law is a problem in those other cases. I know that isn't really what you think, but I mentioned it to point out the logical problem with blaming FTF hunting specifically for a problem that you yourself recognize is general.

 

The problem isn't that they're rabid FTF hounds. The problem is that they're criminals. Plenty of rabid FTF hounds follow the law.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

Exactly. The problem is the behavior. Don't blame the FTF game for people thinking the extra incentive justifies bad behavior. You might as well blame geocaching in general for that same bad behavior in non-FTF cases.

 

Sorry, I just don't buy the "some people are going to do bad things even in non-FTF cases" argument. All I am suggesting is that, to me, it logically makes sense that when there an incentive involved to find a cache before someone else, that some people are more likely going to speed or enter a park during closing hours if there is a FTF opportunity than if there isn't.

 

According to an internet source, about 38,000 people died in traffic accidents in 2010 and in about 31% of those cases alcohol was related. Using your argument, you might as well blame motor vehicles, when in fact, if people didn't drive drunk there would be a significant reduction in the number of traffic fatalities.

 

I know that the numbers are probably not the same, but if playing the FTF game leads to a increase the number of laws being broken, it increases the likelihood that a land manager is going to attribute geocaching with lawlessness, and even those that choose not to play the FTF game might be affected.

[+Roman!]

Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

Exactly. The problem is the behavior. Don't blame the FTF game for people thinking the extra incentive justifies bad behavior. You might as well blame geocaching in general for that same bad behavior in non-FTF cases.

 

Sorry, I just don't buy the "some people are going to do bad things even in non-FTF cases" argument. All I am suggesting is that, to me, it logically makes sense that when there an incentive involved to find a cache before someone else, that some people are more likely going to speed or enter a park during closing hours if there is a FTF opportunity than if there isn't.

 

According to an internet source, about 38,000 people died in traffic accidents in 2010 and in about 31% of those cases alcohol was related. Using your argument, you might as well blame motor vehicles, when in fact, if people didn't drive drunk there would be a significant reduction in the number of traffic fatalities.

 

I know that the numbers are probably not the same, but if playing the FTF game leads to a increase the number of laws being broken, it increases the likelihood that a land manager is going to attribute geocaching with lawlessness, and even those that choose not to play the FTF game might be affected.

 

We should then ban all caches that have restrictions on the time they can be found as someone may be tempted to speed, run red lights or run over people to get to a park or place that's closing shortly and if they are late they may be tempted to enter illegally.

[+NeverSummer]

Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

Exactly. The problem is the behavior. Don't blame the FTF game for people thinking the extra incentive justifies bad behavior. You might as well blame geocaching in general for that same bad behavior in non-FTF cases.

 

Sorry, I just don't buy the "some people are going to do bad things even in non-FTF cases" argument. All I am suggesting is that, to me, it logically makes sense that when there an incentive involved to find a cache before someone else, that some people are more likely going to speed or enter a park during closing hours if there is a FTF opportunity than if there isn't.

 

According to an internet source, about 38,000 people died in traffic accidents in 2010 and in about 31% of those cases alcohol was related. Using your argument, you might as well blame motor vehicles, when in fact, if people didn't drive drunk there would be a significant reduction in the number of traffic fatalities.

 

I know that the numbers are probably not the same, but if playing the FTF game leads to a increase the number of laws being broken, it increases the likelihood that a land manager is going to attribute geocaching with lawlessness, and even those that choose not to play the FTF game might be affected.

 

We should then ban all caches that have restrictions on the time they can be found as someone may be tempted to speed, run red lights or run over people to get to a park or place that's closing shortly and if they are late they may be tempted to enter illegally.

This back-and-forth, I think, demonstrates why Groundspeak/Geocaching.com doesn't recognize the FTF sub-game as part of the overarching game they "regulate". That is to say, legally, geocachers assume all risks when seeking a geocache listed here. Twist an ankle? Not Groundspeak's liability. Fall from a tree? Again, no. Get arrested for breaking a law to get a cache? Not their issue either.

 

So long as a FTFer wants to break the law to get to a cache first, they'll be liable for the risk. The whole "going into a park after hours" thing is a little played out, IMO. Anyone can go into a park after hours, but takes a risk that a neighbor will call the cops, or that a cop will patrol the parking lot and see the vehicle used. FTFers might take a extra risk or two, but I don't think its worth getting worked up about.

 

Now, are there some unstated "codes of conduct" that can be addressed for FTFers? Sure, but how on earth are you going to enforce them? You can hope that people act legally, ethically, etc. But, beyond that, I leave it in the hands of law enforcement.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

Exactly. The problem is the behavior. Don't blame the FTF game for people thinking the extra incentive justifies bad behavior. You might as well blame geocaching in general for that same bad behavior in non-FTF cases.

 

Sorry, I just don't buy the "some people are going to do bad things even in non-FTF cases" argument. All I am suggesting is that, to me, it logically makes sense that when there an incentive involved to find a cache before someone else, that some people are more likely going to speed or enter a park during closing hours if there is a FTF opportunity than if there isn't.

 

According to an internet source, about 38,000 people died in traffic accidents in 2010 and in about 31% of those cases alcohol was related. Using your argument, you might as well blame motor vehicles, when in fact, if people didn't drive drunk there would be a significant reduction in the number of traffic fatalities.

 

I know that the numbers are probably not the same, but if playing the FTF game leads to a increase the number of laws being broken, it increases the likelihood that a land manager is going to attribute geocaching with lawlessness, and even those that choose not to play the FTF game might be affected.

 

We should then ban all caches that have restrictions on the time they can be found as someone may be tempted to speed, run red lights or run over people to get to a park or place that's closing shortly and if they are late they may be tempted to enter illegally.

 

Somehow you managed to miss and make my point at the same time.

 

 

This back-and-forth, I think, demonstrates why Groundspeak/Geocaching.com doesn't recognize the FTF sub-game as part of the overarching game they "regulate". That is to say, legally, geocachers assume all risks when seeking a geocache listed here. Twist an ankle? Not Groundspeak's liability. Fall from a tree? Again, no. Get arrested for breaking a law to get a cache? Not their issue either.

 

So long as a FTFer wants to break the law to get to a cache first, they'll be liable for the risk. The whole "going into a park after hours" thing is a little played out, IMO. Anyone can go into a park after hours, but takes a risk that a neighbor will call the cops, or that a cop will patrol the parking lot and see the vehicle used. FTFers might take a extra risk or two, but I don't think its worth getting worked up about.

 

Put your self in the position of a land manager responsible for city parks, and the activities that are allowed in those parks. If you became aware of several incidents of people entering the park after the posted closing hours, and you found out that several of them were doing so to find a geocache, might not influence your decision as to whether or not to allow geocaching in all city parks?

 

Now, are there some unstated "codes of conduct" that can be addressed for FTFers? Sure, but how on earth are you going to enforce them? You can hope that people act legally, ethically, etc. But, beyond that, I leave it in the hands of law enforcement.

 

To clarify, I have never suggested an sort of ban on how the game should be played or to some try to enforce a code of conduct. About all I can do is remind geocachers that want to play the game in a certain way that they're not playing it in a bubble. As I see it, the game of geocaching involves three types of people. Geocache finders, Geocache hiders, and land managers (where people hide and find geocaches). I've noticed a general trend of entitlement by some geocache finders with regard to geocache hiders (I won't elaborate here with some examples), but putting finding the cache first, or finding a cache at all over how ones code of conduct affects the opinion of land managers about the game of geocaching, might just influence where we can continue to play the game.

[+NeverSummer]

Put your self in the position of a land manager responsible for city parks, and the activities that are allowed in those parks. If you became aware of several incidents of people entering the park after the posted closing hours, and you found out that several of them were doing so to find a geocache, might not influence your decision as to whether or not to allow geocaching in all city parks?

Now, are there some unstated "codes of conduct" that can be addressed for FTFers? Sure, but how on earth are you going to enforce them? You can hope that people act legally, ethically, etc. But, beyond that, I leave it in the hands of law enforcement.

 

To clarify, I have never suggested an sort of ban on how the game should be played or to some try to enforce a code of conduct. About all I can do is remind geocachers that want to play the game in a certain way that they're not playing it in a bubble. As I see it, the game of geocaching involves three types of people. Geocache finders, Geocache hiders, and land managers (where people hide and find geocaches). I've noticed a general trend of entitlement by some geocache finders with regard to geocache hiders (I won't elaborate here with some examples), but putting finding the cache first, or finding a cache at all over how ones code of conduct affects the opinion of land managers about the game of geocaching, might just influence where we can continue to play the game.

 

As a land manager, I get it. I like to think that we won't have to be on constant watch for people to break the rules. I have a bit of faith that people will know the law and rules, and follow them. Now, if someone happens to go somewhere, say, after hours and find a cache and we're not there to stop them, I can't say we're happy about it.

 

But, this isn't to say that I'm not lucky to be a geocacher and a land manager. If a land manager were not a geocacher, how can we expect them to understand the bigger picture?

 

I agree with what you're saying. But, I can't see how fretting about it will make it better. The only thing we can do is keep pointing, firmly, at the guidelines Groundspeak provides. For the rest of the world's guidelines, rules, and laws, let them handle things from there.

 

In a world where geocaching is no longer an "under the radar" game, it is hard not to think about bomb squads, squad cars and handcuffs. But, the game started under the radar, and some people do think the game entitles them to an excuse that should get them out of jail free. Whatever happened to good, old fashioned stealth, care for an area as to not destroy it, and common sense? Well, the game got too big for it to be self-policed anymore.

 

What is the alternative, then? More rules from Groundspeak? I think not. I believe we should all be thoughtful of what it means to be an aware, courteous, respectful, and respectable geocacher.

[+Roman!]

Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

Exactly. The problem is the behavior. Don't blame the FTF game for people thinking the extra incentive justifies bad behavior. You might as well blame geocaching in general for that same bad behavior in non-FTF cases.

 

Sorry, I just don't buy the "some people are going to do bad things even in non-FTF cases" argument. All I am suggesting is that, to me, it logically makes sense that when there an incentive involved to find a cache before someone else, that some people are more likely going to speed or enter a park during closing hours if there is a FTF opportunity than if there isn't.

 

According to an internet source, about 38,000 people died in traffic accidents in 2010 and in about 31% of those cases alcohol was related. Using your argument, you might as well blame motor vehicles, when in fact, if people didn't drive drunk there would be a significant reduction in the number of traffic fatalities.

 

I know that the numbers are probably not the same, but if playing the FTF game leads to a increase the number of laws being broken, it increases the likelihood that a land manager is going to attribute geocaching with lawlessness, and even those that choose not to play the FTF game might be affected.

 

We should then ban all caches that have restrictions on the time they can be found as someone may be tempted to speed, run red lights or run over people to get to a park or place that's closing shortly and if they are late they may be tempted to enter illegally.

 

Somehow you managed to miss and make my point at the same time.

 

 

I got your point, my point is that there may be many reasons other than FTF that a geocacher breaks some rule or laws. I know your stance on the FTF game but your comments are very discriminatory.

 

Personally I've parked illegally more times to make a quick grab on an older geocache than I've ever broken any rules/laws getting an FTF, if you're worried about rules/laws or old people getting run over odds are it won't be someone going after an FTF.

[+Don_J]

Some people are going to drive over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, and enter parks after closing hours anyway, but the FTF race just provides that extra incentive for those rabid FTF hounds to do so.

Exactly. The problem is the behavior. Don't blame the FTF game for people thinking the extra incentive justifies bad behavior. You might as well blame geocaching in general for that same bad behavior in non-FTF cases.

 

Sorry, I just don't buy the "some people are going to do bad things even in non-FTF cases" argument. All I am suggesting is that, to me, it logically makes sense that when there an incentive involved to find a cache before someone else, that some people are more likely going to speed or enter a park during closing hours if there is a FTF opportunity than if there isn't.

 

According to an internet source, about 38,000 people died in traffic accidents in 2010 and in about 31% of those cases alcohol was related. Using your argument, you might as well blame motor vehicles, when in fact, if people didn't drive drunk there would be a significant reduction in the number of traffic fatalities.

 

I know that the numbers are probably not the same, but if playing the FTF game leads to a increase the number of laws being broken, it increases the likelihood that a land manager is going to attribute geocaching with lawlessness, and even those that choose not to play the FTF game might be affected.

 

We should then ban all caches that have restrictions on the time they can be found as someone may be tempted to speed, run red lights or run over people to get to a park or place that's closing shortly and if they are late they may be tempted to enter illegally.

 

Somehow you managed to miss and make my point at the same time.

 

 

I got your point, my point is that there may be many reasons other than FTF that a geocacher breaks some rule or laws. I know your stance on the FTF game but your comments are very discriminatory.

 

Personally I've parked illegally more times to make a quick grab on an older geocache than I've ever broken any rules/laws getting an FTF, if you're worried about rules/laws or old people getting run over odds are it won't be someone going after an FTF.

 

I have never parked illegally, or unsafely to get a geocache, and it really angers me when people place a bunch of caches along a roadway and call them park n grabs, and each one is right next to a No Parking sign. It tells me how they play the game, and I want none of it. I've had one parking ticket in my life, when I misread a sign while visiting my mother in the hospital. My last moving violation was in 1983 and I had a minor fender bender in 1992. I have a certain "attitude" about driving and no geocache is going to change that.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

This back-and-forth, I think, demonstrates why Groundspeak/Geocaching.com doesn't recognize the FTF sub-game as part of the overarching game they "regulate".

Regulate, no...Promote, yes.

[+dprovan]

Any law that can be broken to get FTF can be broken to get any other find. FTF is one find. Let's say a typical cache gets 100 visits in its lifetime. Are you so sure that it's 100 times more likely for an FTF to break the law than the other finds?

[+Walts Hunting]

Maybe not 100 times more likely but highly more likely. When you are in a race against others you are more likely to disregard rules, laws, etc.

[+BlueDeuce]

 

I have never parked illegally, or unsafely to get a geocache, and it really angers me when people place a bunch of caches along a roadway and call them park n grabs, and each one is right next to a No Parking sign. It tells me how they play the game, and I want none of it. I've had one parking ticket in my life, when I misread a sign while visiting my mother in the hospital. My last moving violation was in 1983 and I had a minor fender bender in 1992. I have a certain "attitude" about driving and no geocache is going to change that.

 

Back up a sec. You're complaining about a no parking sign because it tells you how they play the game?

Edited December 10, 2012 by BlueDeuce

[+BAMBOOZLE]

Wow...lots of back and forth on this one.

I don't get notified when new caches are put out and any FTF's we get are purely accidental....we do get a kick out of it when we get one. I don't know if they are listed in my stats.....if they are GC put them there, not me.

I tip my hat a bit to FTF'ers because they deal with the issues of a brand new cache ( loose co-ords, etc,etc)....I would prefer a cache be found a few times before I look.

[+Don_J]

 

I have never parked illegally, or unsafely to get a geocache, and it really angers me when people place a bunch of caches along a roadway and call them park n grabs, and each one is right next to a No Parking sign. It tells me how they play the game, and I want none of it. I've had one parking ticket in my life, when I misread a sign while visiting my mother in the hospital. My last moving violation was in 1983 and I had a minor fender bender in 1992. I have a certain "attitude" about driving and no geocache is going to change that.

 

Back up a sec. You're complaining about a no parking sign because it tells you how they play the game?

 

I'm not complaining about the sign. I'm complaining because they are suggesting that I park in front of it. And yes, it does tell me something about them. It tells me that they have no respect for the law in regards to geocaching and are willing to park illegally to find one. When a cache description specifically tells me that I can park right in front of the cache and right in front of the cache is a sign that says otherwise, yes, it tells me something about how that person thinks.

[+Gamaliel]

I'm not complaining about the sign. I'm complaining because they are suggesting that I park in front of it. And yes, it does tell me something about them. It tells me that they have no respect for the law in regards to geocaching and are willing to park illegally to find one. When a cache description specifically tells me that I can park right in front of the cache and right in front of the cache is a sign that says otherwise, yes, it tells me something about how that person thinks.

 

Agreed, and I'd say it tells us something about the hider too, that they don't care that finders will break the rules looking for their caches.

[+fizzymagic]

Any law that can be broken to get FTF can be broken to get any other find.

 

Oh, come on. You are usually so reasonable, but this is getting ridiculous. You must know that you are committing a well-known fallacy here (it is claimed that X causes Y; I have an instance of Y that was not caused by X, therefore X does not cause Y) and I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is you are trying to accomplish by loudly repeating it ad nauseum.

 

My recommendation to all: give it a rest, already.

[+Roman!]

Any law that can be broken to get FTF can be broken to get any other find.

 

Oh, come on. You are usually so reasonable, but this is getting ridiculous. You must know that you are committing a well-known fallacy here (it is claimed that X causes Y; I have an instance of Y that was not caused by X, therefore X does not cause Y) and I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is you are trying to accomplish by loudly repeating it ad nauseum.

 

My recommendation to all: give it a rest, already.

 

If x causes y and that causes problems then if we have a case of z causing y then that should cause problems too. Only problem z doesn't involve the FTF game so there is no angst.

[+dprovan]

You must know that you are committing a well-known fallacy here (it is claimed that X causes Y; I have an instance of Y that was not caused by X, therefore X does not cause Y) and I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is you are trying to accomplish by loudly repeating it ad nauseum.

I guess I'm confused about what the cause is. As many laws -- if not more -- are broken hunting for caches in general as are broken hunting FTFs.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

You must know that you are committing a well-known fallacy here (it is claimed that X causes Y; I have an instance of Y that was not caused by X, therefore X does not cause Y) and I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is you are trying to accomplish by loudly repeating it ad nauseum.

I guess I'm confused about what the cause is. As many laws -- if not more -- are broken hunting for caches in general as are broken hunting FTFs.

 

You're still missing the point and comparing apples to oranges. If a cache is found 100 times, and the first five finds are made by FTF hounds, there would be 95 additional finders that are *not* in a race to get FTF. Suppose, just for the sake of argument that four out of five of the FTF hounds break the speed limit when attempting to get FTF. Once a FTF has occurred, and has been claimed by whoever got it, the incentive to get there before someone else is gone, thus it's unlikely that the next 95 finders will break the speed limit unless they are pre-disposed to speed anyway. That may very well result in more broken laws total among the 95 people not involved in the FTF race, but what I am contending is that the number of laws broken per cacher may be higher for those engaged in the FTF race. If nobody engaged in a FTF race when a new cache was publish I would suggest that the total number of laws broken would be less.