Really Tough Cache Series

[+Mike & Jess]

I have been kicking this idea around for a while now (actually, over a year now), and have decided to get the ball rolling and start the research.

The idea is to have 3-5 caches, scattered around Northern Ontario (huge play ground) which would challenge those of us that believe we are good outdoors people. The locations will be areas worth the trek (plus the smilie face), and have a little something for the first number of finders.

Inspired by the Ishpatina Ridge Earth cache, these won't be a cake walk for anyone.

 

So, with that, I have two questions....

 

If these caches (some or all) was within a reasonable distance, would you be interested in these challenging caches?

 

The second question would be containers, what to use that will be fairly bullet proof, and survive?

I'm planning on spending a few dollars to make sure these caches are going to last. Was thinking large ammo cans, with maybe a pelican case or lock and lock inside (and moisture absorbers inside).

 

Thoughts?

[+Lieblweb]

 

If these caches (some or all) was within a reasonable distance, would you be interested in these challenging caches?

 

It would depend on the caches.....D/T ratings, attributes, etc. Interested? Hell YES!! I won't do caches where I don't feel safe trying to retrieve them. I certainly won't attempt any extreme caches where I don't have the proper experience, tools, or skill level.

 

What do you want to see from these caches? Do you enjoy seeing lots of find logs? Or do you enjoy seeing fewer but more quality logs?

What is your target audience? If you set a more extreme cache series, be prepared for limited traffic

 

The second question would be containers, what to use that will be fairly bullet proof, and survive?

I'm planning on spending a few dollars to make sure these caches are going to last. Was thinking large ammo cans, with maybe a pelican case or lock and lock inside (and moisture absorbers inside).

 

Thoughts?

 

Cache container will depend on the cache placement & its surroundings. Ammo cans are probably the most durable container and they're fairly cheap if you get them at surplus stores/gun shows/etc. You can't beat the durability of something metal over something plastic. Ammo cans are harder to hide because of their overall size.

 

You shouldn't need to put another container inside an ammo can - unless you want to. Most people just put the log book inside a plastic bag inside the ammo can. But...if you're going to put a secondary container inside an ammo can....keep it cheap....lock-in-lock or cheap tupperware. I've never been a fan of lock-n-locks because people just don't know how to close them properly. However, a more challenging cache series might remove any numb-nuts from the equation.

[+J the Goat]

Of course I'd be interested. Hell, I'll even beta test them for you if you pay my way up there

 

Ammo Cans. People will make cases for all kinds of containers, but a good ammo can just can't really be beat for durability and water proof-ness

[knowschad]

Of course I'd be interested. Hell, I'll even beta test them for you if you pay my way up there

 

Ammo Cans. People will make cases for all kinds of containers, but a good ammo can just can't really be beat for durability and water proof-ness

 

No question about it as far as containers. Ammo can should be your only thought there. Those caches are going to be out there for a long time and you're not going to want to run out after dinner to perform maintenance on them.

 

Are you familiar with Ontario's 4.5lb Walleye geocache? That should give you an idea of what to expect from your series.

[Andronicus]

Remember that the defenition of a 5 difficulty is that it is so difficult to find, most searchers will require 2 or 3 trips. Realisticly, not many people are going to plan a 4 day back country trek more than once for a cache. If it was my caches, I would make them 1.5/5.

[AZcachemeister]

Will I need to rent/hire a helicopter?

[+humboldt flier]

Tongue in cheek: Naaahhhhhhhhh, I have enough trouble with 1/1 hides

[+Mike & Jess]

 

If these caches (some or all) was within a reasonable distance, would you be interested in these challenging caches?

 

It would depend on the caches.....D/T ratings, attributes, etc. Interested? Hell YES!! I won't do caches where I don't feel safe trying to retrieve them. I certainly won't attempt any extreme caches where I don't have the proper experience, tools, or skill level.

 

What do you want to see from these caches? Do you enjoy seeing lots of find logs? Or do you enjoy seeing fewer but more quality logs?

What is your target audience? If you set a more extreme cache series, be prepared for limited traffic

Safety is a big concern of mine (comes with the work environment I work in). For each cache, I'll provide enough information to get the cacher going in their research and planning. Any info regarding location risks, or information I obtained through a local will be provided of course. Not all the locations I am targeting I have personally visited already. The one cache I am currently researching for is a good example. I'll describe it at the bottom of this post.

Required tools and skills or at least what I used will be identified. The difficulty will be mainly in preparing for the cache (research, etc) and of course the physical aspect of hiking, biking, bush whacking, etc.

 

As for the target audience... I'm looking for cachers like myself. Those that are looking for an adventure, and something they can talk about after the fact. I expect probably very few finds. Of those finds, I'm sure they will be a whole lot more then "TFTC".

 

Of course I'd be interested. Hell, I'll even beta test them for you if you pay my way up there

 

Ammo Cans. People will make cases for all kinds of containers, but a good ammo can just can't really be beat for durability and water proof-ness

I was thinking ammo can for sure. I've seen how well they have handled our winters and summer. These won't caches I'll visit every summer, but I will be back out their way every once and a while.

 

As for bata testing them... I think I'll burn my budget creating them and getting them out there. I have full intention to have a little something special for the first few finders. Maybe an embroided hat or something. Not huge value, but definately bragging rights they can wear.

If you are ever in Northern Ontario (Canada), you'll be able to hit them up.

 

Of course I'd be interested. Hell, I'll even beta test them for you if you pay my way up there

 

Ammo Cans. People will make cases for all kinds of containers, but a good ammo can just can't really be beat for durability and water proof-ness

 

No question about it as far as containers. Ammo can should be your only thought there. Those caches are going to be out there for a long time and you're not going to want to run out after dinner to perform maintenance on them.

 

Are you familiar with Ontario's 4.5lb Walleye geocache? That should give you an idea of what to expect from your series.

I haven't looked at that cache. Will do so now that you mention it.

 

Remember that the defenition of a 5 difficulty is that it is so difficult to find, most searchers will require 2 or 3 trips. Realisticly, not many people are going to plan a 4 day back country trek more than once for a cache. If it was my caches, I would make them 1.5/5.

The problem with following those rating rules is a water cache, say a bright orange cache on an island, would be of the same rating as probably some of my tough caches, which may be an over night or two trip. Not even in the same ball park, but because it requires specialty tools (boat), it's an instant 5 territory.

I would consider having to pre-plan and research a fair bit, added difficulty.

 

Will I need to rent/hire a helicopter?

If you do, take me!

I don't know if a helicopter would be able to get you into some area. Would also be super expensive. If you have that kind of caching budget.... need a caching buddy?

 

Tongue in cheek: Naaahhhhhhhhh, I have enough trouble with 1/1 hides

I have them days too sometimes.

 

As mentioned in the first quote, here is a bit about the first cache I am working on. I suspect it'll be one of the better of the bunch.

The first cache is based on discussions I had with an old highschool and college buddy. His extended family had least property from the queen way back when in Northern Ontario. It was located near a river and old saw mill that was shut down in the 1930's.

To get to their cabin (which we don't know if it's still standing), you had to go via train, and get off at a specific mile post. You will have to pre-schedule to be picked up at the mile post when the train is passing that area. From what I heard, There is a nice river with a decent falls on it which is about a half day hike from the cabin. The cache will probably be near the falls.

 

Now, I am just starting to research this area. I am going to be sitting down with my buddy and his great uncle who is the only one still alive that has been to the cabin. From what I have been told, he has a few topo maps that are hand marked up with locations of trails (if still there) and a few other important points of interest.

 

So... Long story short... To get this cache, the cacher will take the train to mile post X, hope off and travel to GZ. At the scheduled time and date, meet the train back at mile post X and go home. Suitable camping area and maybe points of interest (fishing, etc) will be offered as I'll be doing the same trip to get there and back.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

 

Remember that the defenition of a 5 difficulty is that it is so difficult to find, most searchers will require 2 or 3 trips. Realisticly, not many people are going to plan a 4 day back country trek more than once for a cache. If it was my caches, I would make them 1.5/5.

The problem with following those rating rules is a water cache, say a bright orange cache on an island, would be of the same rating as probably some of my tough caches, which may be an over night or two trip. Not even in the same ball park, but because it requires specialty tools (boat), it's an instant 5 territory.

I would consider having to pre-plan and research a fair bit, added difficulty.

 

 

Given the remoteness of the cache, and if a boat is required I could see how it could have a 5 terrain for the terrain rating. Since you're going to use an ammo can I can't imagine that it would be that difficult to find once you're at ground zero. I really wouldn't consider the use of the train, either the terrain or the difficulty rating. The pre-planning and research involved would add to the difficulty in getting to ground zero, thus would only apply to the terrain rating, not the difficulty rating. Using a train, with a pre-arranged drop off and picked would make this a really interesting cache that will likely get a high percentage of favorite points from those that choose to find it.

[+Mike & Jess]

 

 

Remember that the defenition of a 5 difficulty is that it is so difficult to find, most searchers will require 2 or 3 trips. Realisticly, not many people are going to plan a 4 day back country trek more than once for a cache. If it was my caches, I would make them 1.5/5.

The problem with following those rating rules is a water cache, say a bright orange cache on an island, would be of the same rating as probably some of my tough caches, which may be an over night or two trip. Not even in the same ball park, but because it requires specialty tools (boat), it's an instant 5 territory.

I would consider having to pre-plan and research a fair bit, added difficulty.

 

 

Given the remoteness of the cache, and if a boat is required I could see how it could have a 5 terrain for the terrain rating. Since you're going to use an ammo can I can't imagine that it would be that difficult to find once you're at ground zero. I really wouldn't consider the use of the train, either the terrain or the difficulty rating. The pre-planning and research involved would add to the difficulty in getting to ground zero, thus would only apply to the terrain rating, not the difficulty rating. Using a train, with a pre-arranged drop off and picked would make this a really interesting cache that will likely get a high percentage of favorite points from those that choose to find it.

An ammo can in dense bush can still be tough. My cammo painted mail box (full size mailbox on a stake) has proven to be tough if you are not standing right at it.

 

As for the favorite points... After a few minutes of research last night, I expect high favorite points for sure. The hop off point is at an old ghost town where the lumber mill shut down in the 30's, and finally abandon between 1950-1960. The cache will be a hike from there, but the historical sights (a town virtually untouched since it was abandon) brought the excitement level of this hide up a few notches.

 

I'll avoid the rating discussion in this thread. I've got an easy cache on an island, but because it requires a boat, it's a 5 (should be a 3 tops in my opinion).

[+CanadianRockies]

An ammo can in dense bush can still be tough. My cammo painted mail box (full size mailbox on a stake) has proven to be tough if you are not standing right at it.

But does it take most geocachers many hours to find that mailbox? I normally wouldn't give one of my traditional caches even a 3-star difficulty rating if most people could find it and sign the log within an hour of reaching Ground Zero.

 

I've got an easy cache on an island, but because it requires a boat, it's a 5 (should be a 3 tops in my opinion).

Then rate the terrain as 3-stars (or lower). According to Groundspeak's guidelines regarding ratings, they are only "suggested definitions of ratings." They go on to wisely add, "Ultimately, you alone are the best judge for rating your cache."

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

 

Remember that the defenition of a 5 difficulty is that it is so difficult to find, most searchers will require 2 or 3 trips. Realisticly, not many people are going to plan a 4 day back country trek more than once for a cache. If it was my caches, I would make them 1.5/5.

The problem with following those rating rules is a water cache, say a bright orange cache on an island, would be of the same rating as probably some of my tough caches, which may be an over night or two trip. Not even in the same ball park, but because it requires specialty tools (boat), it's an instant 5 territory.

I would consider having to pre-plan and research a fair bit, added difficulty.

 

 

Given the remoteness of the cache, and if a boat is required I could see how it could have a 5 terrain for the terrain rating. Since you're going to use an ammo can I can't imagine that it would be that difficult to find once you're at ground zero. I really wouldn't consider the use of the train, either the terrain or the difficulty rating. The pre-planning and research involved would add to the difficulty in getting to ground zero, thus would only apply to the terrain rating, not the difficulty rating. Using a train, with a pre-arranged drop off and picked would make this a really interesting cache that will likely get a high percentage of favorite points from those that choose to find it.

An ammo can in dense bush can still be tough. My cammo painted mail box (full size mailbox on a stake) has proven to be tough if you are not standing right at it.

 

As for the favorite points... After a few minutes of research last night, I expect high favorite points for sure. The hop off point is at an old ghost town where the lumber mill shut down in the 30's, and finally abandon between 1950-1960. The cache will be a hike from there, but the historical sights (a town virtually untouched since it was abandon) brought the excitement level of this hide up a few notches.

 

I'll avoid the rating discussion in this thread. I've got an easy cache on an island, but because it requires a boat, it's a 5 (should be a 3 tops in my opinion).

 

I've not only DNF'd an ammo can (a couple of times, actually) but I DNF'd a *Golden* ammo can. I'm assuming that you'd *like* to make this (and others in the series) 5/5 caches but so far I haven't seen anything yet that justifies a 5 star difficulty rating.

 

I have always questioned the usefulness of an automatic 5 star terrain cache for any cache that requires a boat. I understand that a boat meets the criteria as "special equipment" but I think a lot of COs *want* to own a 5 star terrain cache and will give it a 5T rating because "they can", but it often doesn't accurately reflect the difficulty in reaching ground zero. I've done a few "boat required" caches that could easily be accessed using a $10 inflatable pool toy. The problem is that with an automatic 5T rating is that it provides no distinction between an easy cache on an island a couple hundred feet from shore in a small protected lake, and a cache on an island a mile off the ocean coast where one would have to be able to handle tides, currents, breaking waves, and the ability to safely land a kayak/boat under those conditions. Yes, both caches required special equipment but one of them requires significantly greater skill in order to safely get to/from the cache.

[+mountainman38]

...As mentioned in the first quote, here is a bit about the first cache I am working on. I suspect it'll be one of the better of the bunch.

The first cache is based on discussions I had with an old highschool and college buddy. His extended family had least property from the queen way back when in Northern Ontario. It was located near a river and old saw mill that was shut down in the 1930's.

To get to their cabin (which we don't know if it's still standing), you had to go via train, and get off at a specific mile post. You will have to pre-schedule to be picked up at the mile post when the train is passing that area. From what I heard, There is a nice river with a decent falls on it which is about a half day hike from the cabin. The cache will probably be near the falls.

 

Now, I am just starting to research this area. I am going to be sitting down with my buddy and his great uncle who is the only one still alive that has been to the cabin. From what I have been told, he has a few topo maps that are hand marked up with locations of trails (if still there) and a few other important points of interest.

 

So... Long story short... To get this cache, the cacher will take the train to mile post X, hope off and travel to GZ. At the scheduled time and date, meet the train back at mile post X and go home. Suitable camping area and maybe points of interest (fishing, etc) will be offered as I'll be doing the same trip to get there and back.

 

This idea sounds great (too bad I'm way too far away to try it)! The one problem I see is with the train. Have you checked to see if trains will actually stop at a specific point along their route to let you off, then schedule a rendesvous to pick you up again? I can see this happening back in the early parts of the last century, but it seems less likely nowadays.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

This idea sounds great (too bad I'm way too far away to try it)! The one problem I see is with the train. Have you checked to see if trains will actually stop at a specific point along their route to let you off, then schedule a rendesvous to pick you up again? I can see this happening back in the early parts of the last century, but it seems less likely nowadays.

 

I bet it's more common that you'd think. There's a train that runs from Ft. Bragg, Cal. to Willits, Cal., which is about a 35 mile trip over a coastal mountain range. It's pretty much run as a tourist train now but as recently as 20 years ago I know that it was frequently used by fisherman to get access to a coastal river that used to be a decent steelhead river. It's probably still used to pick up and deliver mail at a few locations. I remember seeing the ability to schedule a drop-off and pickup on their web site but I didn't see it on their website now. However, the *do* offer a train and kayak run where you take the train to a certain spot (I actually have relatives that live very close to that spot) along the river where you can get in a kayak and paddle back to the coast. Seems to me that a few caches placed along the river that could only be accessed by kayak would be pretty popular.

[+Mike & Jess]

 

This idea sounds great (too bad I'm way too far away to try it)! The one problem I see is with the train. Have you checked to see if trains will actually stop at a specific point along their route to let you off, then schedule a rendesvous to pick you up again? I can see this happening back in the early parts of the last century, but it seems less likely nowadays.

 

They still do the request a stop between stations here.

It's only on select runs however. The area I am looking at is one of the selected runs.

Here is the info from Via Rail's website.

 

On some VIA Rail routes, you can get off and on the train exactly where you want — even in places where there is no scheduled stop! The ideal solution for outdoor activities - at that little lake deep in the forest, or that wild river you've been dreaming of for so long!

 

To use this service, you must purchase your ticket at least 48 hours in advance and tell us the exact spot where you want the train to stop by specifying the exact mile marker at which you would like the train to stop.

 

Stops in between two stations can be requested on these trains only:

 

•Jasper-Prince Rupert

•Montréal-Jonquière

•Montréal-Senneterre

•Sudbury-White River

•Toronto-Vancouver (the Canadian) - only between Capreol and Winnipeg

•Winnipeg-Churchill

 

The page can be found here http://www.viarail.ca/en/stations/stops-between-two-stations

[+MartyBartfast]

For containers you could also consider an army surplus mortar shell case like this They're large, waterproof, tough, and made of plastic so won't rust.

[Pup Patrol]

Yes, people can still ask for specific mile-marker dropoffs. It takes some homework to find out what mile-marker you want, though.

 

And now the train schedule has been reduced to only 2 days a week.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/story/2012/08/02/sby-via-rail-cutbacks.html

 

Via Rail cuts staff, passenger service in Sudbury

 

Sudbury-Toronto train connects will now run two times a week, rather than three

 

Starting this fall, VIA Rail passenger service will make fewer stops at its two Sudbury stations.

 

There are also plans to eliminate the full-time staff in both locations.

 

The three full-time VIA Rail employees at the Capreol and Sudbury Junction stations will be laid off Sept. 27. Those stations will also be seeing reduced train service during the off season of October to April.

 

The train that connects Sudbury to Toronto and the rest of Canada will now run two times a week, rather than three.

 

Dave Kilgour, a city councillor for Capreol, said local workers are worried about the cutbacks.

 

“There was also a real heavy concern about a lack of service being available for all passengers,” Kilgour said. “Currently there's full-time staff there assisting handicapped people or otherwise getting on and off the train.”

 

A spokesperson with the union representing the VIA rail workers in town said employees are concerned one of the two stations will be shutdown — something VIA Rail said it is not currently planning to do.

 

"The train may still go there, but there's no employees in the station. So it's kind of misleading,” Danny Andru said.

 

“They're tweaking it to say 'yeah we're still going to all these stops.’ Sure they are, but they're not getting the same service."

 

Andru said he is meeting with VIA Rail next week to see what future changes the company may have in mind for the northeastern Ontario passenger trains.

 

Kilgour added not enough people know about the pending change.

 

"There has been absolutely no information out there for people to assimilate and react to,” he said. “I think it's extremely important that people that do use the trains are made aware that this service is going to be taken away."

[+Mike & Jess]

Yes, people can still ask for specific mile-marker dropoffs. It takes some homework to find out what mile-marker you want, though.

 

And now the train schedule has been reduced to only 2 days a week.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/story/2012/08/02/sby-via-rail-cutbacks.html

 

 

That has been like that for years.

Luckly it is not that run we are taking. It's the Sudbury to White River, which runs up one day, down the next.

[+Mick McPhee]

I use 4 inch PVC pipe about 16 inches long with cheap drain end caps, and I paint them flat black and gray camo colors. They are waterproof, last a long time, and are large size to hold lots of swag.

 

I have heard many geocachers get excited about PVC looking like a bomb but I live far away from big cities or other sensitive areas and I have never had an issue. I write GEO on the back of them and put that part down out of view until picked up. Very inexpensive compared to ammo cans.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I use 4 inch PVC pipe about 16 inches long with cheap drain end caps, and I paint them flat black and gray camo colors. They are waterproof, last a long time, and are large size to hold lots of swag.

 

I have heard many geocachers get excited about PVC looking like a bomb but I live far away from big cities or other sensitive areas and I have never had an issue. I write GEO on the back of them and put that part down out of view until picked up. Very inexpensive compared to ammo cans.

 

I'd be inclined to spell out "Geocache" and make the label visible without picking it up. If something "looks" like a pipe bomb someone is probably not going pick it up to find out.

[+Viajero Perdido]

Those PVC end caps can be a female dog to remove by hand; please consider providing a removal tool or choosing a spot with a suitably sized rock crevice nearby. Plus they leak.

[+briansnat]

I use 4 inch PVC pipe about 16 inches long with cheap drain end caps, and I paint them flat black and gray camo colors. They are waterproof, last a long time, and are large size to hold lots of swag.

 

I have heard many geocachers get excited about PVC looking like a bomb but I live far away from big cities or other sensitive areas and I have never had an issue. I write GEO on the back of them and put that part down out of view until picked up. Very inexpensive compared to ammo cans.

 

The huge problem I've encountered with PVC pipe caches is that they stink. I've rarely encountered one where the contents were dry. Using the standard caps, if you tighten them enough to hold out water, finders need to bring a wrench. If they are not tightened enough, they leak horribly.

 

Nevermid that when I priced one out at the local big box home improvement store buying all the necessary parts of a PVC pipe cache would run well over $10, which is right in ammo box territory.

 

Ammo boxes are the hands down best choice for long term durability. Next to them it is wide mouth Nalgene bottles for long term longevity. Take that from someone who has a few caches that have been out for a few years.

[+Mike & Jess]

I use 4 inch PVC pipe about 16 inches long with cheap drain end caps, and I paint them flat black and gray camo colors. They are waterproof, last a long time, and are large size to hold lots of swag.

 

I have heard many geocachers get excited about PVC looking like a bomb but I live far away from big cities or other sensitive areas and I have never had an issue. I write GEO on the back of them and put that part down out of view until picked up. Very inexpensive compared to ammo cans.

 

The huge problem I've encountered with PVC pipe caches is that they stink. I've rarely encountered one where the contents were dry. Using the standard caps, if you tighten them enough to hold out water, finders need to bring a wrench. If they are not tightened enough, they leak horribly.

 

Nevermid that when I priced one out at the local big box home improvement store buying all the necessary parts of a PVC pipe cache would run well over $10, which is right in ammo box territory.

 

Ammo boxes are the hands down best choice for long term durability. Next to them it is wide mouth Nalgene bottles for long term longevity. Take that from someone who has a few caches that have been out for a few years.

 

I'll second the ammo cans as the best (locally anyway) long term container. A few of our local oldies are ammo cans. Some haven't seen owner's maintenance in 4+ years and are still dry.

 

For mine, I kind of still want to go L&L inside an ammo can. If someone is going to make that trek, I want them to find a good, dry cache.