Help save Mingo

[GOF and Bacall]

Yes, I also posted this.

 

Are we really gonna split hairs over the type of material used? The important fact is that it was filled in. That raises both the question of permission and party. Was the party that filled it in the land owner/manager or their rep, or was it someone else? If the first then it seems permission is in serious doubt. If the later then any repair is unlikely to last.

 

It's done. Stick a fork in it.

[Clan Riffster]

You can go to Boston harbor. You can board a boat there. You can even toss tea into the water. That won't make you a part of the Boston Tea Party.

That's true. I've been to the harbor, though it was many, many years ago. (I was born in Boston) It was interesting to see, first hand, all the historic places throughout New England, not just in Massachusettes. Going hands on with a silver gravy boat made by Paul Revere, touching the Liberty Bell, (and not getting caught!), climbing the Statue of Liberty all the way to the torch, all were amazing experiences which I cherish, though none warped the space/time continuum, bringing me back in time to the exact 'when', when these items became iconic.

 

Now that we have the Internet, my kids can go online, looking at pictures of all three.

 

I think, if put to the vote, my experiences would carry more value than their's.

 

Not unlike Mingo.

 

Going to the actual site, and adding my name to a 12 year old cache page, appeals to me.

 

Finding an exact replica of the original, which is a week old, at some other location, does not.

 

Though I admit, my opinion is rather biased.

[Clan Riffster]

If I sign a copy of The Declaration of Independence that won't make me a founding father.

That's also true. I've seen the original. I thought it was pretty kewl.

When I worked for Mickey Rat, I saw copies for sale for just a few dollars.

They didn't hold nearly the appeal as the original.

[knowschad]

You really should relax, CR.

I'm actually pretty relaxed.

As an ordained Dudeist Priest, being mellow is my norm.

Trying to paint me as a crazed madman only works if I behave as a crazed madman.

 

I was simply talking about a great analogy, not about Mingo, or even how or if it applied to Mingo.

It was a terrible analogy.

Two elements as opposed to four...

All elements changed as opposed to only one out of four...

Sorry. As analogies go, it was a stinker.

 

As to your claim that you weren't making a comparison, "Meh".

But I won't debate it as that might bring this dead horse further off topic.

Allow me to repeat myself... I was stating MY OPINION that it was a great analogy, and I was NOT referring to Mingo, or even how or if it applied to Mingo.

 

Relax.

Edited March 14, 2012 by knowschad

[Clan Riffster]

Allow me to repeat myself... I was stating MY OPINION that it was a great analogy, and I was NOT referring to Mingo, or even how or if it applied to Mingo.

 

Relax.

Allow me to repeat myself...

 

I was stating MY OPINION that any analogy which is so blatantly off the mark is not a good analogy.

 

And I'm still relaxed.

 

No crazed mad man here...

[+Too Tall John]

KC, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. That's gross.

I was simply talking about a great analogy, not about Mingo, or even how or if it applied to Mingo.

According to Dictionary.com:

a·nal·o·gy [uh-nal-uh-jee]: a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

If you aren't talking about Mingo, what are you comparing the ax to? If you aren't comparing it to anything, it isn't an analogy, it's just a story.

 

CR seems pretty relaxed to me. If I go around telling you not to chew other peoples' used gum, does that mean you go around picking gum off the bottom of park benches and chewing it? Of course not.

 

Really, though, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. It isn't sanitary.

[+SwineFlew]

Its not history. Its just a little byte on the internet that can go away in a flash.

[+jellis]

The hole has been filled in permanently. The experience will never be the same. Let it go already.

Assuming the highway crew did this, I believe the problem will go away when they do.

 

The real question is whether chiseling out the hole would constitute a violation of the current guidelines or be "grandfathered" in.

 

I would think that it would be a violation of the guidelines. However, if the CO could show permission from whomever is in charge of that land, DOT or town, etc. I'd have no problem with it. But just the fact that the hole was filled with concrete calls into question the status of any permission. It really should be closed and locked until the question can be resolved one way or the other.

From previous Mingo thread

04 January 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Don't worry, folks. The latest logger was not aware that a reviewer is already monitoring the situation. I'm not ready to do anything yet.

 

Interesting tidbit for discussion: A cacher who is a licensed land surveyor in Kansas, and has been working with the highway department, contacted me. He doesn't know what is going on, but he did have this to say:

 

Quote

As a licensed surveyor, I can say that all the markings at the cache site are vandalism and not the professional standard work of surveying.

 

 

But also though it is vandalism and not placed by a landowner. The vandal may still strike again, and again.

Unless they only did it because it was a hole in the ground.

Who knows.

Edited March 14, 2012 by jellis

[knowschad]

KC, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. That's gross.

I was simply talking about a great analogy, not about Mingo, or even how or if it applied to Mingo.

According to Dictionary.com:

a·nal·o·gy [uh-nal-uh-jee]: a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

If you aren't talking about Mingo, what are you comparing the ax to? If you aren't comparing it to anything, it isn't an analogy, it's just a story.

 

CR seems pretty relaxed to me. If I go around telling you not to chew other peoples' used gum, does that mean you go around picking gum off the bottom of park benches and chewing it? Of course not.

 

Really, though, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. It isn't sanitary.

 

As with most analogies, that one is useful for more than simply talking about Mingo. I wasn't comparing the ax to anything. Starbrand was. I was simply saying that I appreciated the imagery. I have no idea what you are referring to with your gum analogy, though.

 

To understand why I am suggesting that CR relax, you'd have to look at the other Mingo thread, too. He seems to think that I have a strong opinion regarding the future of Mingo.

[+grateful cacher]

The next oldest cache, GC12, was placed the day after Mingo, and it is in a beautiful part of NW Oregon, great view from the site of Mt. Hood. But it is not accessible year round, due to the snow, and is definitely not a park and grab, but a hike into it, and even in good weather, it's easy to get lost. The rating is has is a 1/1, is really more like a 3/3.5. Not a walk in the park. It has only been found 501 tiems since it was placed, and hasn't been visited in three months. It's also not really close to the original stash plaque, but both can be done is a long day. You can also get GC17 which is relatively closer to GC12.

 

The next oldest cache will also have area and history to experience.

[+StarBrand]

KC, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. That's gross.

I was simply talking about a great analogy, not about Mingo, or even how or if it applied to Mingo.

According to Dictionary.com:

a·nal·o·gy [uh-nal-uh-jee]: a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

If you aren't talking about Mingo, what are you comparing the ax to? If you aren't comparing it to anything, it isn't an analogy, it's just a story.

 

CR seems pretty relaxed to me. If I go around telling you not to chew other peoples' used gum, does that mean you go around picking gum off the bottom of park benches and chewing it? Of course not.

 

Really, though, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. It isn't sanitary.

 

As with most analogies, that one is useful for more than simply talking about Mingo. I wasn't comparing the ax to anything. Starbrand was. I was simply saying that I appreciated the imagery. I have no idea what you are referring to with your gum analogy, though.

 

To understand why I am suggesting that CR relax, you'd have to look at the other Mingo thread, too. He seems to think that I have a strong opinion regarding the future of Mingo.

 

I think it is time to bury the axe....

 

 

(analogy intended - maybe)

[+jellis]

The next oldest cache, GC12, was placed the day after Mingo, and it is in a beautiful part of NW Oregon, great view from the site of Mt. Hood. But it is not accessible year round, due to the snow, and is definitely not a park and grab, but a hike into it, and even in good weather, it's easy to get lost. The rating is has is a 1/1, is really more like a 3/3.5. Not a walk in the park. It has only been found 501 tiems since it was placed, and hasn't been visited in three months. It's also not really close to the original stash plaque, but both can be done is a long day. You can also get GC17 which is relatively closer to GC12.

 

The next oldest cache will also have area and history to experience.

With friends we did all three of these, part of a CM, 3 FTFs and a bunch of puzzles in one day. I wouldn't say the hike was a 3.5 terrain from where we went in but it was definitely a 3 difficulty to find a 5gl in the woods.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Mingo is comprised of at least four pieces, location, container, owner & GC number.

 

Three of the four are still the same.

 

IMO to be the "same cache" the factors that matter are:

1) container & style of hide

2) location

3) logbook

4) GC # & date published

 

I don't think the current owner matters; once placed, the owner is responsible for maintenance and the cache is linked to their profile. But unless maintenance requires changing something about the cache, the owner's impact is essentially done. There are several early Florida caches by Dogbone and I think all the surviving ones are adopted; that doesn't change their appeal to anyone that I'm aware of.

 

A big part of a cache's history is if the cache has the original logbook, which represents not long a longevity of the container but gives visitors a more tangible tie to the history, especially with the ability to see old log entries. Old caches tend to have log entries in the physical book rather than just names. The oldest cache in my county still has the original logbook which even survived a fire that neccesitated replacing the ammo can that contains it. It's the difference between seeing the original Declaration of Independance vs seeing a typed reproduction without the signatures of the Founding Fathers.

 

The original container is gone (and with it the original logbook). The style of the hide and the type of container used are no longer viable and must be changed. The location is the same, although from all the photos I've seen it is completely mundane. (Has KS Stasher ever said why he placed a cache in such a seemingly random location? If it was a new cache and not the oldest one it would be derided for being a meaningless park-n-grab.)

 

It can continue to be the same GC # and same publication date, but its purely sentimental by that point, like an old house that has been extensively remodeled but can claim to be hundreds of years old because the street address is the same and the chimney and foundation are original from 1850, but the furniture is all new and the roof has been replaced and the walls were gutted at one point.

[Clan Riffster]

Great points, Josh. We differ on what is important with this cache, but that's OK. I respect your views, but even more importantly, I appreciate your professional tone. Some in this thread have adopted a "You must be a real bonehead if you disagree with me" tone which is seldom an effective communications tactic, though, on the Internet, seems to be the status quo.

 

Thanx Brother!

[knowschad]

KC, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. That's gross.

I was simply talking about a great analogy, not about Mingo, or even how or if it applied to Mingo.

According to Dictionary.com:

a·nal·o·gy [uh-nal-uh-jee]: a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

If you aren't talking about Mingo, what are you comparing the ax to? If you aren't comparing it to anything, it isn't an analogy, it's just a story.

 

CR seems pretty relaxed to me. If I go around telling you not to chew other peoples' used gum, does that mean you go around picking gum off the bottom of park benches and chewing it? Of course not.

 

Really, though, stop chewing other peoples' used gum. It isn't sanitary.

 

As with most analogies, that one is useful for more than simply talking about Mingo. I wasn't comparing the ax to anything. Starbrand was. I was simply saying that I appreciated the imagery. I have no idea what you are referring to with your gum analogy, though.

 

To understand why I am suggesting that CR relax, you'd have to look at the other Mingo thread, too. He seems to think that I have a strong opinion regarding the future of Mingo.

 

I think it is time to bury the axe....

 

 

(analogy intended - maybe)

GREAT analogy!!!

[+Glenn]

I would like to see Mingo continue on, if for no other reason, I am a fan of history. True, the term "history" is hard to apply to a hobby that is just over a decade old, but in terms of perspective, that sucker is ancient. There are many aspects to any particular cache, but from my (admittedly highly biased and opinionated) viewpoint, what makes Mingo unique is the GC number, not the container. The chance to add my moniker to that cache page, with names stretching back over a decade, holds a great deal of appeal to me.

I've never understood the history argument as a reason for not archiving a cache. As I see it archiving a cache preserves it's history. The cache listing is still viewable. All the past stories written about finds and find attempts are still there for all to read. That sounds just like preservation of history to me.

Could be. I look at it as visiting an archaeological dig, getting my hands dirty, versus seeing a photo of the site. From my admittedly biased perspective, the appeal is that, so long as it's not archived, I have an opportunity to add my name to that 12 year old list of past finders. This appeals to me, personally. The history is ongoing. If it is archived, the history stops. At that point it holds no more appeal than GC1, or whatever the first legitimate listing is. Sure, I can view it, but I cannot contribute to it, nor can I become a part of it.

 

You can go to Boston harbor. You can board a boat there. You can even toss tea into the water. That won't make you a part of the Boston Tea Party.

 

It all comes back to what makes a geocache a geocache. Is it solely the GC#, the location, the container, or a combination of the three. Is the GC# on geocaching.com the sole determiner of existence of a geocache? Does archiving a listing on a geocache listing site cause the geocache to no longer exist? If Mingo is cross posted to another geocaching website does Mingo have to stop being Mingo once it is archived on geocaching.com or can it continue on that other site or can it even continue on geocaching.com using another GC#?

[Clan Riffster]

It all comes back to what makes a geocache a geocache.

I suspect there is more than one answer to that question.

 

I further suspect that the answer will largely determine where someone stands on this issue.

 

For instance, if I were container oriented, believing that was the most critical element, I might tend toward calling for Mingo to be archived. Naturally, I would also lean toward having any cache archived when the original container goes missing. That's too much like the Ape Cache resolution to suit me, but I'll respect the opinions of those who do believe that. Perhaps a lesser degree of the same concept would be more palatable? When the container type is no longer viable, perhaps it's time to pull the trigger? That would allow missing caches to be replaced.

 

If I were a logbook oriented cacher, believing that the physical signatures ensconced in an ancient notepad were the most important part of any cache, I would also be calling for an end to Mingo. Since feeling that way would lead me to believe any cache without an original logbook must be archived, I'll have to pass on that one as well. Though, again, I'll do so respectfully. I've had some caches burnt, crushed, inundated with goo, stolen, etc. In most cases, archiving them because the original logbook was no longer present never crossed my mind.

 

What else is there to consider? Location? Some folks feel that only the precise, originally posted coordinates qualify for discussions regarding location, but as someone who has had to move a few caches due to issues, I really have a tough time embracing this one. I prefer a more generalized version, allowing the location to be the basic area which the cache brought you to see. If a cache was placed to bring you to a lagoon overlook, then anywhere along that overlook would satisfy me as far as maintaining a location. But a cache which gets moved enough to change the experience should get a shiny new GC number. Once again, just my personal thoughts.

 

Then there is ownership. Joshism gave a really good argument against that line of thought by bringing up Dogbone caches around Florida, one of which I happen to own. Prior to considering his point, I did place an excessive degree of value toward ownership. Thankfully, his well worded post turned me around.

 

What's left for me is the clump of pixels known as the GC number.

 

Post script: An update for the bespeckled pooch: Still relaxed.

[+Too Tall John]

I think it is time to bury the axe....

 

 

(analogy intended - maybe)

Unless it's already grandfathered, it's against the guidelines to bury it.

[GOF and Bacall]

I'm not going to argue that a cache is solely the container. But when the cache undergoes a major change in the experience then it is no longer the same cache. Change the location, container, or page by enough and the experience has changed and the cache is no longer the same. Replace a buried peanut butter jar with a buried mayonnaise jar and the experience is essentially the same. Replace it with a film can on the fence a dozen feet away and it isn't. Move the mayonnaise jar a mile down the street and bury it and it may be the same container but the location is not. Re-list it on another site and it is still the same cache. Make it the final of a multi and it isn't.

[AZcachemeister]

Though I gotta say, my inner snark would love it if one of the geocaching forefathers stepped up and unarchived one even older than Mingo.

 

Could we possibly get a few APE caches un-archived instead?

 

There are almost certainly thousands of much cooler caches that have been archived that I will never find.

 

It's a fact: Caches get archived.

 

It is now my greatest fantasy to be 95 years old and having the geocaching community clamoring over one of my caches that is in danger of archiving.

 

It must be saved, it's an AZcachemeister hide!

[knowschad]

I think it is time to bury the axe....

 

 

(analogy intended - maybe)

Unless it's already grandfathered, it's against the guidelines to bury it.

 

Is it alright as long as I use a blunt instrument? I know the thing about pointy objects and all that.

[+biscuit_fam]

Okay I obviously struck up something by asking if anyone KNOWS KS but I guess some of the people on here just want to argue sorry I will drop it and those who think this cache should die post somewhere else I ask a simple question and alot of people took it way to far. I went to the site today and the site is not permanently sealed nothing is permanent not even concrete you will see I think it should be persevered to show respect to KS for being one of the people that started this nice little hobby we all like or is that not what this is about, We all love geocaching. If you cannot respect that then stop clogging up the topic I started.

Edited March 15, 2012 by biscuit_fam

[+StarBrand]

Okay I obviously struck up something by asking if anyone KNOWS KS but I guess some of the people on here just want to argue sorry I will drop it and those who think this cache should die post somewhere else I ask a simple question and alot of people took it way to far. I went to the site today and the site is not permanently sealed nothing is permanent not even concrete you will see I think it should be persevered to show respect to KS for being one of the people that started this nice little hobby we all like or is that not what this is about, We all love geocaching. If you cannot respect that then stop clogging up the topic I started.

That really comes across as:

 

"Agree with me or shut up"

 

I do not believe that community maintained caches are a very viable cache type or a good idea. IMHO.

[+The A-Team]

stop clogging up the topic I started.

To be honest, I'm not really sure why you started this topic anyway. You said "If any one know Kansas Stasher Please message me or let him know I am willing to fix Mingo". You don't need any of us to help connect you with KS. You can easily message him through his profile here. If that's the only reason for this topic, then it should probably be locked.

[+Roman!]

Okay I obviously struck up something by asking if anyone KNOWS KS but I guess some of the people on here just want to argue sorry I will drop it and those who think this cache should die post somewhere else I ask a simple question and alot of people took it way to far. I went to the site today and the site is not permanently sealed nothing is permanent not even concrete you will see I think it should be persevered to show respect to KS for being one of the people that started this nice little hobby we all like or is that not what this is about, We all love geocaching. If you cannot respect that then stop clogging up the topic I started.

 

When they archived Mission 9 they made it perfectly clear no cache would be shown special consideration but if you get the ape cache brought back I will back you 100% on Mingo.

 

Good luck, I want that ape icon.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Okay I obviously struck up something by asking if anyone KNOWS KS but I guess some of the people on here just want to argue sorry I will drop it and those who think this cache should die post somewhere else I ask a simple question and alot of people took it way to far. I went to the site today and the site is not permanently sealed nothing is permanent not even concrete you will see I think it should be persevered to show respect to KS for being one of the people that started this nice little hobby we all like or is that not what this is about, We all love geocaching. If you cannot respect that then stop clogging up the topic I started.

 

Did you want a real discussion about Mingo or just nicey-nice things being said about the cache/owner?

[+SwineFlew]

Wow...this topic is going somewhere else!

[+Glenn]

Okay I obviously struck up something by asking if anyone KNOWS KS but I guess some of the people on here just want to argue sorry I will drop it and those who think this cache should die post somewhere else I ask a simple question and alot of people took it way to far. I went to the site today and the site is not permanently sealed nothing is permanent not even concrete you will see I think it should be persevered to show respect to KS for being one of the people that started this nice little hobby we all like or is that not what this is about, We all love geocaching. If you cannot respect that then stop clogging up the topic I started.

To be honest if I was KS I would be laying low and doing nothing. Assuming that KS even cares what is going on in these forums. I'd wait until a reviewer archived the cache listing, that way the reviewer is the bad guy. Once the original Mingo listing is archived the angst in the forum will disappear almost right away. I won't be surprised to see a new listing in the same spot shortly thereafter.

[+Roman!]

Okay I obviously struck up something by asking if anyone KNOWS KS but I guess some of the people on here just want to argue sorry I will drop it and those who think this cache should die post somewhere else I ask a simple question and alot of people took it way to far. I went to the site today and the site is not permanently sealed nothing is permanent not even concrete you will see I think it should be persevered to show respect to KS for being one of the people that started this nice little hobby we all like or is that not what this is about, We all love geocaching. If you cannot respect that then stop clogging up the topic I started.

To be honest if I was KS I would be laying low and doing nothing. Assuming that KS even cares what is going on in these forums. I'd wait until a reviewer archived the cache listing, that way the reviewer is the bad guy. Once the original Mingo listing is archived the angst in the forum will disappear almost right away. I won't be surprised to see a new listing in the same spot shortly thereafter.

 

It could be called Miingo.

[+Glenn]

...I went to the site today and the site is not permanently sealed nothing is permanent not even concrete you will see I think it should be persevered to show respect to KS for being one of the people that started this nice little hobby we all like or is that not what this is about, We all love geocaching...

What makes you think that what you know what KS wants. It is KS's listing not your listing. Let KS take care of it or not take care of it. It is his choice not yours.

 

What exactly are you on a crusade to preserve? To me it seems like you are trying to preserve a listing on a website. If you want something to preserve how about preserving the memory of the cache. The best way to do that it to let whatever is going to happen to the cache listing happen to it. If the listing gets archived then place a memorial cache in it's honor (assuming that Mingo isn't listed elsewhere).

[+Totem Clan]

stop clogging up the topic I started.

Close the thread. That will stop everyone from 'clogging' it up.

[+JBnW]

...snip...I went to the site today ...snip...

BTW, since you were there recently, is the road crew still nearby? Is the construction completed or still on-going?

[AZcachemeister]

 

It could be called Miingo.

 

Naaahhh...Mingone!

 

Mingo-go comes in a close second.

[Keystone]

stop clogging up the topic I started.

Close the thread. That will stop everyone from 'clogging' it up.

Agreed. Let's give this subject a rest for awhile, OK? If there is news from the cache owner or from Groundspeak posted to the cache listing or otherwise, that would be a good time for a new thread.

 

Threads are for discussion, not for announcements.